It seems unnecessary to use two identical filters. I could be wrong, but to me this is a little like stacking two identical spaghetti strainers on top of each other. Any particle that’s small enough to pass through the first strainer will also pass thought the second strainer. To improve your dust collector, would it make sense to try using two non-identical filters? (That is, filters that are designed to catch different sized particles.) Anyway, thanks for the vid. Enjoyed it as usual.
Correct. If both filters are the same micron count most of the stuff that makes it through the first one can make it through the 2nd filter. Infact all a 2nd filter really does is restrict airflow so its actually hurting the dust collecting process.
Technically, You're not even wrong. Filters like these (MERV 8) are not like a strainer, the analogy is close, but incorrect. If you look into their ratings, they are capable of capturing the particles all the way down to 3 microns, and they are rated according to their efficiency at doing so. If the cheapest filter has a 70% efficiency at 3 microns, and the second one 70% also, it adds up to more 3 micron particles collected with two filters than one. 70% at 3 and 90% at 10 microns, doesn't mean 0% at lower particle sizes also. And... even with a spaghetti strainer, stacking two means statistically less noodles going through.
@@rolfbjorn9937 Agreed - for the math-inclined, 2 filters with 70% efficiency acting in series _should_ net you ~90% total (30% of inflow makes it through the first, 30% of that makes it through the second --> 9% total passed, or 91%). Makes me wonder if there's some value to stacking my higher-MERV filters...
I love the fact that your shop is in constant evolution. Seems like a smaller dust collector for each machine makes more sense since it takes less space and is more convenient to use. Keep up the great content!
Wow, I was thinking of making one of these today then saw this comment. I have some extra lexan that's been sitting around forever. Doing this for sure now
Simple, easy, practical with data to back the results. And as usual, cost effective. Channel should be named " Woodworking with Engineers ". Great video as always.
Ah, sounds good! :) I'm guessing a dust collector on each tool is handy for things like that one planer that just wants to blast crap out the dust port.
+Matthias Wandel : you should add a mechanism to vibe the dust collector when it's off, and let the particles fall down inside the box, allowing you to run it longer before having to open and clean again.
I imagine you in the shop pointing to all your appliances like Oprah. "You get a dust collector, you get a dust collector, EVERYONE GETS A DUST COLLECTOR".
I wouldn't think doubling up filters would do anything. The first filter would get dirty and a dirty filter blocks more dust. Anything that would pass a dirty filter would likely pass right through a clean filter (the second one)...right?
True, double filters are normally used when having a filtersystem that has to be on always, so that when you clean the first one, you can leave the machine on and any dust coming loose will get sucked straight into the second one, then when the first one is packed you can change the second one (which will not shed dust as much when shaken, because it is less dirty) or put a new one in front of the old one. Though with filters you also often have a passthrough %, which means that fine particles have a certain chance to pass through one filter, and still get caught by the second one (because it hits a fiber straight on, instead of being lucky and going straight through a little hole in the mesh)
If they are the same rating your right, but if you have a much finer one second it will be able to catch the finer stuff. I have a "filter" made of window screen in front of my main air return to catch cat hair. I only have to clean it once a week and only need to replace the house one ever 6 weeks or so.
Hmm. This would rely on how this works. Can filters trap something, but not always? That is, can filters trap a large portion of a particle size, but not trap all particles of that size? If so, multiple filters would help. If not, they wouldn't. If he had tested the output on one with one and then two filters, we would have a better idea of that.
seigeengine For fine dust the filter doesn't act as a fixed grid but rather as an open obstacle course. The efficiency of the filter degrades at higher speeds. Of course measuring both options is the best approach.
And people upgrade from little ones to big ones all the time. Just watch your local classifieds. I paid $30 for my 1HP and $50 for my 2HP, both Harbor Freight models (well regarded) in like new condition.
No John. It isn't. When you factor in all the tubing that has to be cleaned in a central system you have much less work with individual boxes. Plus , every time you add a bend in the collection tube you lose efficiency and the same is true with the longer the run. So, you are wrong about everything. CONGRATULATIONS
I have the same planer. I just fit some 4" PVC pipe to the dust port and route it into a large garbage can. I bungee some geotextile (nonwoven filter fabric) over the top. It collects all the chips and dust no problem.
So where is the cyclone (ie thien baffle) as part of this project? Call me crazy but your "Box dust collector" seems to have the same basic design as a thien baffle like you used in your "Building the two-bucket cyclone" project. When its oriented horizontal and with a few modification. So why use a filter as the primary way to collect the dust?
back on the farm my grandpa used fruit flies to collect dust. grandma and ma ran the fruit fly farm. they bred those flies for miles. the good trick to dust collecting with fruit flies is to rub raspberries on your lumber so the flies know what to grab
I like the idea, my only criticism is that now you have half a dozen dust collectors to empty instead of one. I think its a good system though because you do save so much money, time and effort not having to deal with the ducting.
Don't forget one for your drill press. And a DC station for hand power tools like circular saw and jig saw. Oh -- almost forgot -- one for your pocket hold jig -- just kidding... :)
Cool little units Matthias! Have you considered selling them? I'm sure people would buy if it were feasible...although the kind of people who need these are likely in a position to make their own I suppose. :/ Nice video anyway!
Denny Bartley I have a video on my channel .where I started last winter but I haven't had a chance to work on it anymore. But it is something that needs to be done.
actually ive been making two bucket cyclones with old vacuum cleaner motors for quite a awhile i have three of them. One hooked up to table saw, one on planer and another i use for pulling mouse nests out of cars(dont ask it really stinks up a regular shop vac) Royal/dirt devil vacuums have a flange on the motor that fits the cone shaped filter from same vacuum perfectly.
The MERV value of those two filters aren't the same (11 vs 8) which may account for the differences you're seeing. Though the more expensive one (11) in theory should catch more, however.. since the other filter (8) is capable of moving more air through it faster may actually account for better collection.
SephYuyX I was wondering the same. It's an interesting practical result, but I'm not sure what my takeaway of the filters should be. I'd worry that MERV 8 knocks down the particle count, but leaves the most dangerous in the shop. I enjoyed the video, but don't know if I'd be willing to reproduce that filter. It seems like I'd want to be able to reliably move air through a better filter. His takeaway was that the cheap filter performed better, but I wonder if it just had less back pressure.
I love your videos Mattias, I wish I had half of your skill and a quarter of your tools. With these filters that you have made I don't understand why you don't have the suction at the top. Having the vanes of the filters running horizontaly or even diagonally (A frame) would leave shelves for the dust to build up on. If the filter was mounted in the ceiling of the box and suction at the top, the dust has little to settle on on the filter. Position the inlet maybe 1/3 to 1/2 way up the filter box and have a hopper below. Once a buildup of dust reaces a critical point, the weight of it would drop clumps of dust back down into your hopper. In effect this would self clean the filter to a large degree, you would only have to empty your hopper and clean off the finer particles from time to time. I look forward to more of your videos and your thoughts.
Commercial AC tech here, I can confirm cheaper filters merv 7 and merv 8 give much better airflow. I always recommend homeowners buy the least expensive pleated filters. Higher merv and allergy filters restrict airflow and do not keep the equipment any cleaner.
In this case, the problem wasn't lack of airflow, but lack of actually filtering out dust. The expensive filter had less air resistance, but was letting thru not just fine dust, but also coarse sawdust.
Interesting, I would have thought the more expensive filter would have a higher drop across it. Resulting in a higher return static at the collection point. If the filter was allowing large dust particles to bypass then the price is even more of a rip off.
Because the expensive filter restricted airflow, it might have been possible that the saw dust was being forced around the edges of the filter. They may have opened up, after the vacuum would warp the shape of filter.
I agree... I think if I was going to use a setup like this, I'd build a filter frame out of aluminum angle or channel, and use a filter-sized portion of expanded metal to "support" and SEAL the filter in the box... I also don't see why he doesn't change the box design so at least the primary filter could be changed out without taking the panel off the box.... If the tolerances were correct, you wouldn't lose but an insignificantly small amount of vacuum with MY design idea...
I've been driving myself mad with my dust problem, no collection yet, or time to woodwork but I've been thinking about it a lot. This set up(one at every tool), and then once in a while going thru all of them with a shop vac and cyclone is probably going to work out perfect for my spare time woodworking endeavours. Thank you! Now to figure out the lathe dust...
I think you're right Matthias. I was going to wire up blast gates and current sensing modules all over the shop. Now I think I'll just have a separate dust collector for each machine. Cheers
Find the wire between the switch and the motor, splice in the hot wire of the fan into that wire, hook up neutral and ground, done! Use MC cable if you can (flexible metal conduit) for a safe install
I have an old powermatic disc/belt sander that has a belt driven blower underneath/ a switch to toggle belt or disc and a filter bag. Came this way from the factory.
How powerful does a motor need to be to be an effective dust collecting system for a table saw? Yesterday, I was literally considering the concept of individual DC for different tools. But I don't know enough about motors or what to consider when trying to develop the idea.
interesting solution. curious as to how often one would need to clean them out as compared to emptying huge bag on the central collector. I can see the value of additional floor space in a small workshop if you could totally remove the need for the central collector too. I always wondered why the power tool manufacturers never included dust collection (more than a connection hole) with their respective tools, maybe you can patent and get some contracts with those companies.
The general idea with dust collectors is to have a space to store the dust- not have it all stuck to a filter! Not just expensive, you will be spending much time emptying them- especially if you have to remove screws to do so. And all that space, which could be storing tools or materials. I run without any filters- my collector is outside the workshop (#1) or in the loft space (#2) where what gets through the cyclone is just exhausted. You cannot get cleaner workshop air. And they take zero space. The time spent opening blast gates is trivial compared to multiple filter cleaning.
Wow! Like about .004% of the worlds population* have access to furnace fans and filters - this must be the most unique dust collection solution ever! Grrrr! *Disclaimer: I took a sample of the people in my street, it came out to 0% but I rounded it up to .004% to be fair - that was a good enough sample for me.
You said you just wired off the switch, but do you mean you parallel off the start switch? Did you think of using a relay and is that motor fan motor off a car, 12 volt?
Now figure out how to make a cylindrical drum with a conic insert so you can put in a vortex separator before your filters. An empty paint bucket and some sheet metal is probably a reasonable starting point. (I'm sure you can research the rest.) If you get it right, the filter will only be catching the finest particles as all the other stuff will be in the drum.
If you will pardon the cliquish, I think it is swings and roundabouts. You might get efficiency from individual dust collectors but it is a lot of space to have individual collectors for each machine. Sorry Matthias, but in this instance I will stay with one large hose and blast gates. Only takes me a few seconds to change around the gate configuration. But each to there own.. Keep them coming. :)
Out of interest, what was the reasoning behind directing the dust through the top of the A-frame as opposed to through the filter assembly from the inside of it?
That's very interesting. The Garrison filter, which is rated MERV 8, performs better than the 3M filter, which has a rating of MERV 11. For dust particles, which are mostly between 2.5 - 10µm, the 3M 'should' theoretically perform slightly better than the Garrison, so it's interesting that it doesn't. Perhaps having a denser mesh leads to re-suspension of particles back in the air after it gets full? For particles less than 2.5µm, which is generally where smoke/fumes fall in, I'm guessing the 3M would perform better. Also, were you comparing the readings on the left? I think you once mentioned that you have a Dylos Pro, so just curious how the two readings compare to the large dust collector. Perhaps some raw data (if you have some)
I'm going to use your idea but I'm going to add a tray on the bottom that I can dump out. plus I'll use hinges and fasteners that don't require a tool to remove. like thumbscrews or wingnuts.
It was great someone gave you those motors. Where is a good source for buying something like that? I just googled for hot water heater exhaust blower, and they seem to run from $100 to $300 new. Could probably find used ones for cheaper on eBay or something.
looks great! I am curious if you find it annoying over time cleaning out all the individual dust collectors. I am also curious if it is difficult to guage when each of them will need emptying, as they will all fill up at different rates. I think this kind of idea is great for a smaller shop that does not have a ton of different stations. I am curious what you think of it over time. Thank you for the video!
It's mind-blowing that 200 something people would thumbs down this video. Is there something not to like about this video? Hey Matthias what are the common complaints that your haters give you? Do they take issue with your hairstyle or something?
Get a Dust Deputy; I have one connected to my CNC router and love it. The DD bin will be full in a few weeks but the vacuum's filter and container are still clean and empty.
I'm building something similar with my table saw/router table now. I'm going to try using a power duct fan good for 220cfm. Hopefully it does the trick! Great build again!
I like this idea, but that looks like a hella lot a work just to make a dust collection cabinet. Have you ever thought about just going to an auto salvage yard to get the housing for an automobile or large truck air filter?
Matthias, so what you are saying is manufacturers should include dust collection on machines they build? I always believed there should be at least a blower included. Perhaps a new idea for a add on tool to be sold for each and every machine.
That dewalt planer he made a video of has a blower in it. It put out more air than his shopvac could suck up. My wen jointer is the same way. Even a large shopvac connected to it restricts its blower.
you mentioned that the blower motors were from water heaters. I have yet to see a water heater electric or gas with a blower like that. Can you link a water heater with that blower setup so i can salvage one myself?
Love the videos, but the problem I have always comes back to the same issue: here in the UK getting electric motors for cheap is really hard. Local refuse sites collect all the electric gear together and sell them as a 'lot' for > £300 a go...this knocks out all old woodworking / gardening / building equipment etc. I've even tried 'skip diving', but never get lucky with electric motors... Anything I find on ebay is either knackered or expensive...so looks like my only choice is to buy new. That's a real shame - because I'd much rather repurpose something which has been discarded - and give it new life!
