A few thoughts on the Scottish basket-hilt sword - Superior guard? 

I'm quite a fan of baskethilts. I also fence in Angelo's "Highland" style. These swords survived the rapier and smallsword and held on in Scotland even after the rise of the cavalry saber. They work, and they work well. Most will argue that it became outclassed by later sabers, but the Scots never seemed to think it made enough of a difference to change.

Your beard got on a whole new level of epicness. Upside down skyrim barrow level. You knew most of the comments would be about your beard right ?

That is very close to one of my favourite blade profiles, an Elmslie type 5b, combining the advantages of single edge and double edge blades, it's awesome.

Don't comment on the beard, don't comment on the beard, don't comment on the beard, don't comment on the beard.... Edit: damn it!

Wouldn't the reason they didn't have basket hilts earlier was that they wore steal gauntlets earlier and the basket hilt was developed after full plate armor was no longer used?

Upside down Bleak-Falls Barrow beard

Mad jack Churchill used a Basket hilted broadsword in WW2

The good ol' protection vs mobility question.

Cool video Skall. The only counterpoint I can think of bringing up is the panic draw. In at least my martial arts experience, my masters would drill us to take a stance until it became second nature. It can be argued that the sword masters who favored this sword would drill in how to draw it in a panic situation so that the hand would auto pilot to the handle, but I'm not sure.

You could also punch with the basket guard.

I've been studying and practicing with many Scottish Broadswords over 11 years and, the back sword was mostly ceremonial. The Broadsword is ment to be warn slightly lower off the hip, compared to almost every other sword. The part of the basket was to provide defense when drawing the blade if your attacker tried to stab or grab your hand, which would happen, and it was a great punching tool as well. Most often clansmen would also have a targe and a dirk in the other hand, again the basket helped when in a close grapple.

The evolution of the basket hilt is a developmental lead by the increasing prevalence of muskets and pistols and the abandoning of clumsy gauntlets or armored gloved by musket and pistol armed troops. The basket hilt was a war weapon initially taken up by the common soldier not a fencing weapon. Similarly the half basket hilt was taken up by cavalry as they had adopted the use of pistols.

Pretzel beard!

Do the tassels on the pommel improve the throwing ballistics?

Can you finish him with the hilt, instead of the pommel?

you can punch with the basket in a grappling scenario.

I once read a comment. Someone said "the crossguard is inferior to the disc guard because someone can *grab the crossguard* and manipulate the opponents blade" [FACEPOMMEL]

Not sure if anyone's brought it up, but Scottish style fighting at the time the basket hilt came out included a lot of wall fighting and bash & whack stuff, since they often went up against armoured English fighters. Also, legends say that extremely skilled basket hilt users could use the bit of the guard in front of the blade to snap an opponent's blade. Not sure how often that happened, but it is an old legend they tell with the sword. Additionally, it's funny that you compare it to a rapier since it is partially based on the Italian rapier. I learned all of this from a Scottish weapons historian at a Highland Festival in the USA btw.

I don't understand why you're trying longsword grips/techniques on a backsword as opposed to stuff that is designed for it... I would recommend Paradoxes of Defence by Silver.

Someone should make a Katana with a basket-hilt guard and a removable pommel. It'd be the ultimate sword!

If someone is trying to grapple with you I don't think you're going to find your sword especially useful to begin with. I also think that you'll usually find, in a historical context, if a person is carrying a sword (and a highland broadsword in particular) they are likely to also be wearing and wielding a smaller blade and/or a targe or other shield. I think that you'll find in a lot of cases getting in close and grabbing a persons sword arm is likely to get you a point in the side or a shield in the face, they aren't likely to just shift their sword to a different hand.

The scottish broadsword is meant for cutting. It was simply meant to be more agile so that you could actually fence with it (using your sword for both ofFENCE and deFENCE). Hence the hand protection. Think of it like any other backsword or Schiavona.

i went to culloden with my school back when i was a little kid and the replica they showed us had baskets formed of round wire apparently because it was developed around the same period as the rapier. They had the basket hilt because along with the targe it gave a good defense and we were told it was used mainly for thrusting similar to the rapier. (Edit) the blade also had two small hooks coming off the guard to catch other blades.

this is one of my favorite types of swords. You do bring up some interesting points about it though. I wonder if there are any historical examples of a similar sword with a hand-guard that doesn't stick out so far towards the wrist so it doesn't inhibit wrist movement, or perhaps with a slightly longer handle that partially sticks out below the guard to allow for 2 handing? Just my thoughts about how to maybe remedy some of drawbacks of this type of sword.

Very interesting video, although regarding the scabbard, it would usually, as far as Highland regiments are concerned, be worn with a shoulder strap rather than on the hip, bringing the handle lower than what you demonstrated. Still, with that in mind, the guard is quite big and may have been in the way, hence why Highlanders would always have their dirk and Sgian dubh at hand, as to defend themselves.

Finally my favourite sword style!

+Skallagrim If I may make a suggestion that will increase your mobility with this sword, it may seem counter intuitive at first , but try holding the handle about an inch further down closer to the pommel. This should address a few issues with the handling: 1. It provides a few degrees of rotational freedom for those close circular cuts you talked about at 4:30. 2. In conjunction with 1. by holding it further down you have more weight to throw into those cuts giving them more impact. 3. It will at least in part solve the "hammer grip lock in" you talked about and give you more freedom to thrust now that your hand isn't right up against the basket. I practice Highland Broadsword style, in a club out of Winnipeg. I recently acquired this sword kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=SH1049 , admittedly not the one you are reviewing, but a closely related precursor model. I found that the holding it close to the basket without a glove chewed up my hand, as i'm sure this one you are reviewing would without the fabric barrier. Holding it literally one inch lower changed the whole feel and handling of the sword. I realize this adjustment will not eliminate the issues altogether, as you say, there are pros and cons to every design choice, but I think you will get a better overall experience by adjusting your grip slightly. Side note, it also makes a basket strike significantly easier to execute.

FINALLY! I had been wondering about this sword ever since you made a video of your personal collection a few months ago and forgot to mention this one. I'm a total fanboy for basket hilts, so I'm glad this one now has a proper video.

FYI a good book on Scottish sword play is Highland Swordsmanship: Techniques of the Scottish Sword Masters by Mark Rector

I think the basket hilt was the perfect weapon used in conjunction with Scottish culture and supporting weapons. If you are fighting tribal warfare where you need your weapons at a moment's notice you won't have time for gauntlets and armor. A basket hilt is a good substitute that requires no added time. Since your opponents are not wearing much armor your cut doesn't need to be as powerful. The Scots also used a targe which was a light 24inch shield. A light shield has to be set into your opponent's cuts which means it's held forward so the thrusts most easily available to you are angled around it, which makes the hand position not as big of a deal. So to a light infantry clan warfare society any downside to the basket hilt is marginal while the upsides are very beneficial.

I have the same type of backsword, and I kind of feel like one of the influences that led to such a heavy but restrictive hilt being popular was the type of armor being used at the time. A lot of armor had strong torso and groin protection, but had begun to abandon metal arm and leg protection for various reasons. While a straight thrust would still have some use, of course, by and large you had to use an up aiming or down aiming thrust to get into the torso or groin, as the protection was often just a solid plate. This obviously wouldn't be the case for everyone; some people still had more armor and some still had less, but if it was as common as it seems to have been then it wouldn't have been a major restriction to keep the wrist in a hammer position. This, mind, is just total speculation; I assume that helmet+breastplate+tasset combination was popular because it looks like it was. If it was less popular than I thought, then this idea wouldn't really would.

I've got to admit I fell in love with baskethilts the first time I read the story "Kidnapped".

nice new intro m8!

I think a Scot would head-butt in a grappling situation, we're known for our hard heads and our love for a good close quarter smash.. great vid, sir!

Those hilts are big enough that you can hide an entire pommel in them. I'll see myself out.

Good vid, thanks for posting. In the British Army this sword went out of fashion during the North American wars. Troops were given the choice of using the broadsword but opted for the musket and bayonet, finding carrying a sword to be too cumbersome. Officers ended-up only wearing the basket hilt on ceremonial occasions, for active service the basket hilt was replaced by a plain, straight crossguard with thistle finials. There was also a fashion during the Napoleonic era and beyond for all things "Scottish" and often Navy officers would replace their standard sword blade with a broadsword blade.

Wicked video man, I have that same piece in my collection and I may do a swords week on my channel but not sure yet. If I do expect many Hanwei pieces! Can I ask where you buy your pieces? I have a place called Kutters in Canada I go to but open to suggestions. Keep up the great content man!

Using the basket hilt backsword does take more practice to get used to, but I have been using one for the past few years and have become very comfortable with both wearing it and using it.

Thank you very much for this video. I had recently just gotten that same Hanwei basket-hilt and have been experiencing all of these problems and presuming that my technique was the problem. Good to know. I still really like the look of the sword though. Do you have any books or other sources you'd recommend for learning how to use it?

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To those asking "why didn't they come up with this earlier?" -- We didn't put wheels on suitcases until the 1970's. We've been lugging things around since the dawn of time. Most things seem obvious in retrospect.

Yes! Finally! I've been waiting for a Scottish broadsword video for forever :p On the subject of techniques, you can pretty much use it the way you would use a saber, albeit straight. It is a chore to use, hence them being called 'wrist breakers' in the old British military tradition. The basket does let you use it in fun ways, such as using two of them and utilizing the basket as an almost improvised buckler.

That Viking Invasion Music from Medieval 1 Suits the channel very well, Skall!

from what I gather the basket hilt was held in the right hand while a targe and a dirk in the left and at the time most of the Jacobite,s opponents were armed with a single shot musket with bayonet. so the sword was used for hard heavy wrist and shoulder thrown blows maninly as a distraction as a second strike quickly follows with the spike on the targe or the point of the dirk that sticks out under the targe

I think it's important to consider the general context of use when comparing weapons. The arming sword was the ubiquitous sidearm of choice for its age so ease of drawing, comfort of wearing, ability to switch hands relatively easily etc. are important benefits for use in civilian as well as military contexts The basket hilted sword on the other hand was very much a weapon of war, and often the primary weapon of the soldier carrying it. This somewhat downgrades the importance of speed of draw and comfort of carry as the sword is likely being carried with intent for a portential engagement, rather than as a defensive side arm carried daily. Consider also that the basket hilted sword was most commonly used alongside a round shield or targe and thus weapon retention and the protection of the weapon hand offered by the basket become of greater importance than the ability to switch weapon hands (The targe also not uncommonly having a spiked boss to provide offensive capability with both hands). Lastly consider the most common opposition facing a basket hilted sword and targe armed soldier. This would either be another basket hilted sword and targe armed soldier, or a musket and bayonet armed combatant. None of these opponents are likely to be wearing considerable armour other than heavy clothing/uniform. In the case of sword + targe vs sword + targe we have a very defensive fight where both parties have the capacity to close with the other using the targe and thus maximum reach is of secondary importance to weapon retention and point maneuverability to counter the opponent's defence. In the case of sword + targe vs musket + bayonet, initially, of course, you may be shot at, in which case; hope. Having sucessfully not been shot, the sword + targe armed combatant now effectively faces an opponent armed with a short spear. No matter how well suited to thrusting and maneuverable a single handed sword is, it cannot compete for reach with a spear. Again the defensive capabilities of the targe must be used to catch or turn bayonet thrusts to close inside the reach of the opponent before cutting them down. So the basket hilted sword is unusual in that it is a moderately long single handed sword and yet finds itself commonly in situations where it is used very close up to enter under an opponents guard. In this usage the forcing of a hammer grip lends the sword towards strength in the cut, draw cuts as well as full force chopping cuts, with a fairly maneuverable tip allowing for moderate thrusting capacity to take advantage of any holes in the opponents defence. Unfortunately I cannot comment on the weighting and point of balance of any historical examples as to favouring cut or thrust. The basket hilted sword is very much a product of its situation and the most common equipment of opponents met by its users. In a one on one, sword alone duel it is very probably not the best choice and my money would be on the arming sword, but that was not the context in which it was most commonly used historically. Oops, I meant to leave a short comment but have done the whole comment essay thing. Hope somebody reads it :) Great channel, keep up the interesting videos.

they wore the sword hung much lower than that for that reason. Also, it was meant for big, strong Highlanders.

New beard look, new intro, skall is getting fancy!

Skallagrim, could you demonstrate the effectiveness of the twirling cut at 4:22? You've featured this technique multiple times in your videos, but I've never understood what this would accomplish in historical battle.

one plus with a good basket hilt is you can use the guard like a knuckle duster . a good solid punch to the face will take the fight out of your opponent !

Unscrew the hilt and throw it at your opponent to end him rightly!

A good way to get very powerful cuts with the baskethilt is to punch, snap the blade forward with the wrist, and pop your hip into the strike. Watch some SCA instruction videos for reference. I have seen rattan crease hardened steel armor via this method...

I would have to say that the trade off was in protection. At the time the weapon was common among the Scots, there was a tendency to wear less armour. The complex and full protection I have to argue almost entirely precludes the wearing of hand protection. You have to be minimally gloved at best to wield this. At least it's one possible argument. Also a point I don't think people appreciate. If you're going to have the protection on the weapon, to this extent, you give up on being able to armour up on the hand.

Extending the grip by about 2 inches and forking the top of the basket should fix almost all of the issues you mentioned Skall. Also adding a slight "S" shape curve to the handle like a french grip foil should turn this sword from almost worthless to very versatile.

I think that the benefits of the hand protection outweigh the cons of what you sacrifice. This style of sword was often called a cleaver, so it was definitely relying more on the cut, and because of the guard having more material they would have put less taper in the blade making it more powerful in this cut. When you talk about thrusting, the style of fencing usually makes it to where you have to have a clear opening for any kind of actual strike, so if you wanted a thrust you would move to make an opening for it, and do the rising thrust or the side thrust, like you said. I think the greatest advantage is really that you can just punch someone with the guard if you get into a grappling scenario, or if you’re just close enough and can use it to disorient them and then strike. Really it just goes to show that there’s no such thing as a perfect sword, just preferences and what different people think.

I never really like basket hilts felt to restrictive in my hands, but I do enjoy how they look and the tactics that can follow them with not just extra hand protection, but an extra weapon.

SO glad I re-watched this before doing my take on the weapon. Lol

Man, you are the only one i know who actually talk about the eficiency of the sword, i really wish you could tell me how possible is to use in combat a "Warglaive" from Warcraft Lore

The sword I have, which I'm told was probably an officer's dress sword, has a little less confining basket, allowing more freedom to move. It's also a broadsword, with both edges more or less sharp.

In the grappling scenerio you wouldnt need to switch hands cause the basket hilt would be paired with a targe and dirk, meaning your other hand has a nice dagger already,

I was making a comparison to this and a cavalry saber. I noticed that the cavalry saber includes a style of handguard that is similar, but not in full. This seems to vary from saber to saber, some having guards extended further around the hilt. Perhaps the characteristics of the full guard were as you said, too awkward. I could see that with larger gloves or armored hand protection that the basket hilt would not be useful. Knuckle protection is always useful in any case and I suppose that swords are no exception. An interesting example of how they integrated full guards on sabers is the M1913 cavalry saber which has a very unique guard.

As a primary weapon the basket-hilted sword clearly has some major advantages. But as a secondary weapon, it clearly has some distinct disadvantages. That leads to what seems (to me) to be a pretty obvious reason for such high levels of protection not being prevalent throughout much of the sword's functional history. It makes sense to spend more effort and money on the best primary weapon you can get your hands on, and have a secondary weapon that strikes the optimal balance between being combat-effective, being cost-effective, and not hindering you while using your primary weapon.

The basket hilt gives you an additional weapon to punch with, if your enemy is too close for you to deliver a proper swing or thrust.

i swear your beard gets better and better with each vid

I was just looking into this sword and randomly found this video awesome

It seems notable that as firearms start showing up more and more, armor shifts from the metal gauntlet to the sword itself, freeing up the fingers so that one can fire a pistol. I agree that if fighting in armor, the basket hilt becomes superfluous. But unarmored pistol wielders would appreciate a little more hand protection.

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I love the looks of this sword

the basket hilt sword was mainly used with a shield a durk was sometimes use on the same hand as the shield durks were manly used to cut while blocking with a shield so in my opinion you can't just judge a weapon by its self when tactics play a huge role in my opinion

This was actually really interesting. Though you touched this issue previously this was much more in-depth.As always I like how you mix your HEMA knowledge with a common sense. It makes those videos informative yet natural. And of course that beard style is amazing.

Love the video, great work as always, Skall. Although, you mentioned the blade being difficult to draw. Perhaps so for you, who is so practiced with the cruciform style. But I would imagine that difficulty could perfectly well be trained past.

from my studies academically into the historic Scottish martial practices the basket hilt sword came about from a fight style and preferences for highly close range involving more grappling and chopping styles

For a 'weapon & Martial Art expert' you don't seem to have considered that some of your counter arguments against the Basket Hilt are irrelevant if you consider the combination of weapons used in the 'Highland' style of fighting - for example the hand switching point. In the alternate hand to the basket hilt there was generally a targe and dirk (if we're just considering close range melee weapons, we'll ignore firearms such as the musket & dags (all metal pistols which could be used as clubs or thrown at opponents once fired). Therefore when unable to engage the sword (in your argument with the opponent grappling the sword arm the dirk could be used to stab them - so no need to switch the sword to the other hand. Although basket hilted swords became popular in the Highlands in the late 17th and early 18th C and were issued to Highland regiments from the 18thC (Officers only after the practice of issuing the rank & file with swords stopped in the late 18thC) they are not uniquely Scottish & originated as Cavalry weapons. They probably became popular in the Highlands due to Mercenaries having fought on the continent returning home with them & many of the older Great Swords (anglicised as Claymore) were cut down to make them. It was often the vogue to have a (more often than not forged) well know makers mark on them. Due to the style becoming unique to Highland regiments in the British army is probably the reason why now they are percieved as uniquely Scottish. There were also curved varients as well as the more common straight bladed version which were referred to as a gaelacised translation of Turkish.

Dude I love the the beard style!

Prior to firearms, the well equipped soldier's primary weapon was typically a polearm - a halberd, bill, pike, lance or whatever. Having your hand protection on your hand - as a gauntlet - made sense, because it protected your hand while you were using your primary weapon and while you were using your sidearm - your sword. When the firearm came into common use, gauntlets became impossible, because charging a flintlock firearm is fiddly enough with bare hands, let alone heavy gloves. As the enemy closes within melee range, there isn't time to drop your pistolet, drag on a heavy gauntlet, and unsheath your sword. So the hand protection must necessarily move from the hand to the weapon. That's all. Medieval soldiers wore gauntlets, so there wasn't need for hand protection on the sword - except for archers, but most archers weren't rich enough to own a sword. Renaissance (and later) soldiers couldn't both wear gauntlets and use fiurearms, so their swords had to have hand protection. End of story.

Concerning wrist angle in the thrust, the guards in highland broadsword do lead to quite towards our downward stabs.

Most of the time the sword is used in conjunction with a Targe and cutting attacks are like a meat cleaver, using a hammer grip is clearly the most appropriate grip. The other defensive/offensive tactic is to use the basket as a heavy knuckle duster. A close look at the basket of some styles show a serration on the front bar of the hand protection. Imagine the impact that would have on an opponents face and concentration. The Basket Hilt Scottish Sword is a heavy weapon not purposed for genteel dueling but ideal for the Scottish Charge, a full bodied attack, hacking and bashing. Not subtle parry and riposte. As for the scabbarded carrying of the Basket Hilt compared to the Arming sword, the Basket Hilt was usually hung on a Baldric for ease of disarming when entering buildings. An Arming Sword is hung off a belt usually straight down the side and not likely to trail behind striking things as the person turns. Those are my views at least, for what they are worth.

George Silver thought highly of the basket hilt sword against the rapier in his Parodoxes of Defense. I've got a copy of it bookmarked (in the language of 1599 English) and it has interesting insights. The cliffnotes version is that he felt the rapier was too specialized a weapon with its emphasis on offense and the thrust while the basket hilt sword and similar cut and thrust blades were more versatile and thus better suited to a broader range of situations.

From what I remember of this sword it's guard was good for punching your attacker but it was often paired up with a Dirk I think

Scottish basket hilt swords are optimized to be used with a shield so it's a different style of fighting all together.

To my knowledge a Scottish broadsword's job is to chop through a Frenchman's limbs. It doesn't need to stab, and it doesn't need to be drawn quickly, because it would already be drawn. There simply wouldn't be a situation where an enemy could not be spotted until they were close enough so that the user of this sword wouldn't be able to draw it in time. A Frenchman also wouldn't bother grabbing the arm of the Scotsman, he would try to keep his distance, while the Scotsman parries the bayonet, and chops his bloody head off.

There's a series out called the "Last Kingdom" and I really think you should check it out. It's based on a book series by Bernard Cornwell under the same name. I'm interested on what you think on some of the fighting going on in the first couple episodes. The books written by Cornwell are often praised for their ability to blend historic battles while at the same time crafting a story that is fictitious, but doesn't interfere with history. This, however, I kinda doubt translates to the actors and actual fighting styles going on. Some tactics were very real and overall I find the whole thing interesting.

Man, your beard is fantastic!! omg hahaha I loved it! Also, what do you think about the Cromwell Mortuary Sword? Somewhat similar guard design, and its a pretty fast and agile sword (at least that's what I heard)

It seems (to me) that the basket hilt was made for open war scenarios in mind, when you would of drawn it before the battles start. Where you wouldn't want to make such risky cuts and thrusts as well. Swords with cross guards; I feel like, they were made for skirmishes rather open war, even though they were still used in war.

I was (once upon a time) trained in Chinese Kung Fu. And one lesson I learned from that could be applied to ANY martial art is... If you've got it? Flaunt it! Any body part can be a weapon if you just put some power behind it. A shoulder can easily be used to throw someone off their feet.

Bit late to jump in with a comment and don't know if Skall will ever see this but, as someone who has done some training in broadsword fencing, I felt I should point out a couple of things. - Basket hilts are held in a sabre grip. - The normal stance is similar to a sport fencing stance but a little more square on and with your point level with your opponent's eye. - There are four main guards: right, left, hanging and St. George. - There are nine standard cuts: three aimed at the head, two at the neck/shoulders, two at the waist and two at the thigh/knee. Basically, fencing with a basket hilted sword is very similar to fencing with a sabre and relies on a lot of the same principles in cuts, guards and footwork. If you're interested in the finer points I would suggest contacting Paul Macdonald (of Macdonald Armouries and Academy in Edinburgh) as this is really his speciality.

We never used any fancy moves that you see, it was used madly against the english in a hack and slash way. The highlanders usually used a Targe, a shield, on there side. But if you imagine, highlanders charging at the english, semi naked from the waist down, screaming at the top of their lungs, and just hacking wildly, then you get the idea. Thats why most enemies ran from the Highlanders. There are things that are wrong with the sword, you always carried a shield into combat

In an "anything goes" fight I guess you could grab it by the blade and use it as a makeshift club, since all of the weight is right there.

Could you maybe make the guard larger or the handle longer to allow for a handshake grip? It would of course add more mass to the bottom, but now you have a ton of point control with something better suited for thrusts.

I believe the basket-hilted broadsword was intended more for defensive purposes rather than offensive.

Looks to me like it would be pretty hard to touch someone using one of those in conjunction with a shield of some sort. Really good hand protection, hand grip that sacrifices some reach and a balance near the hilt just screams "this is for getting right up in someone's face with" to me.

So basically, it limits a LOT of what you can do, but lets you get away with more mistakes or misses.

Why didn't they come up with it earlier list: 1.They were already using gloves for hand protection while handling their primary weapon. 2.Hand injuries were less common in a battlefield situation, since combattants were under a lot of pressure to finish their opponents quickly and permanently. 3.Additional cost, craftsmenship, weight without huge benefits. Only when armor (especially armored gloves) are less in use and 1 on 1 fencing is common (duel situation), the hilt really shines

Interesting analysis. You made a lot of good points. The basket hilt is shown commonly used in harmony with a targe and dirk in the other hand. Might be something to look into, highlanders were specialized in close quarter combat and had a certain fighting style regarding this sword.

also scots broadswords are meant to be used with a shield, a targe specifically

Oh this sword reminds me of the Scottish Broads word from Assassin's Creed 4

So basically this thing is more protection at the expense of blade nimbleness? makes sense tbh. Btw skall, ur beard looks cool. Next step: pommel shape.

I've seen those things being called Claymores, I assume this is mistaken, since a Claymore is a two-handed late medieval broadsword.

The main advantage of Scottish basket-hilter swords is the look. Man those things are about the sexiest weapon you can get.

I have a suspicion that the Scottish broadsword, like most heavy, broad-bladed weapons, was used more for hacking than anything else

Still not a great reason to want a basket hilt, but another positive trait you didn't mention; added weight/hardness if you just punch someone in the face with it. Though I'm not sure a #BasketPunch could end someone rightly.