Another point; Slip Angle refers only to the deformation or the 'slip' of a tyre which enables you to drive in a different direction than which the tyres are pointing (shown in the diagram at 1:49) Slip angle is produced on the LIMIT of grip. Meaning if you go over the limit, you're just oversteering. I should have emphasised this more in the video, but I thought the diagram would explain it, it seems as though some people were confused and thought that micro-oversteer was slip angle. It isn't. As I said, I wanted to exaggerate slip angle for effect in the video. Slip angle is very subtle and hard to see unless you play the clip in super slo-mo (like 3:56).
If you REALLLLY need to hammer it into people brains about what slip angle really is, I have a way you can show it. Since you are a Sim Racer, I am sure you have heard about BeamNG.Drive. Well, if you go into that game, turn on the debug menu, then turn on simple node visuals, and turn on simple skeleton visualization, then sling the car through some real hard corners... you can look up from the underside of the car and actually visually "see" the tire deformation and actually get a visual understanding of the slip angle... plus you can put it in slow motion and actually visually see every iota of what is happening.
Not much to add but this short segment of text you deleted summarizes the art of driving on the edge. I never referred it as 'slip angle' I called it 'in between' when discussing it with driver colleagues who could understand. As in between sliding and gripping. For me this also happens on acceleration phase also not when only cornering. When driving overpowered cars, be it fwd, 4wd or rwd if I cross the grip accelerating I am slower if I am burning the rubber. 4wd in all shapes is easier to keep in check but this throttle controlling 'in between' centric driving is the fastest and most enjoyable type of driving for me. We look for mechanical perfection in maintaining and building cars. This is that perfection in driving method.
To be honest yeah i saw the video as more of a pointer for those who already knew basic vehicle dynamics and terms and it was more of just a passion project type of vid anyways at least just to get people excited about the real applications of vehicle dynamics to precision driving. Honestly i figured you'd go more in depth another day anyways, like you mention in your "another point" about what slip angle is by definition, me already knowing that term made that video kind of commonplace really (im sure likewise for many other people who've really devoted to your channel as their people interested in real precision driving) but i suppose it is esoteric to the new racing community, i learned the term from understanding crash dynamics, for example, often people begin to understeer in say a fwd car, say in the rain upcoming a bend, but then when most people encounter understeer they apply more counter steer thinking it'll help correct the turn but alas only makes the issue worse by increasing the slip angle (making the tires lose a chance to re obtain traction even further), already knowing that eventually allowed me to make the connection to how that could apply to precision driving (including drifting that actually REDUCES lap times). Actually when i understood that however long ago its been, thats what made me realize most of the people who talk about what a "true drift" is are really just kinda talking out their asses and dont really understand much about vehicle dynamics and driving fast lol. A true drift to me had always meant anytime you dance on the edge of the traction coefficient on purpose for better cornering times than a car otherwise would make using full grip. And it's a far too common misconception, any drivetrain can do it because weight transfer physics are identical per any car, a vehicles limit on corners is more akin to its track width wheelbase turn radius and i suppose power output at the end of the day, drivetrain has actually very little to do with the limit, drivetrain is just a predicate to a certain sect of techniques to achieve that cars limit, and really eventually, all cars need to drift a little bit to go faster on some corners on any track and road condition, besides maybe on a steep uphill then traction is precious for any car especially fwd, you'd need a lot of power to be any exception. But great video great update, looking forward to more content 👍
slip angle is the fundimental principle of how tyres work whilst cornering, not a technique and not something that only happens at the grip limit. a more accurate way of putting it is (at least to my understanding) to say slip angle is a vector between the direction of the tyre and the direction of the contact patch and inertia of the car. essentially if you think of what im about to say happening in very slow individual frames, the contact patch moves in the direction your car is travelling, when you turn the steering wheel your wheel and tyre moves but the contact patch stays firmly in place, however since the tyre is rotating and its turned the front of the tyre or "next" contact patch is going more where you want it to go which makes the car turn, this angle between the inertia and the steering angle is called the slip angle, higher slip angle generates more cornering force (dont say grip i'll get to that) because you're making a bigger change in direction every "frame" however once you overwork the tyres too much the actual grip of the tyre on the contact patch breaks and the car starts to slide. different tyres have different slip angle/cornering force curves with race tyres that have a more peaky curve suffering more at the lower slip and creating more force at higher slip angles making it more important to push them to the limit and street tyres generally having more flat curves making them more forgiving, admitedly i dont completely understand this this is literally a whole field of science and engineering in its own right and i am just an 18 year old college student with the maturity of a 15 year old takumis technique in the way i interprate it is a little different, usually this only applies to the front tyres and the rear have their own lateral grip which is all good and normal however takumi rotates the entire chassis of the car instead of just the front wheels in order to turn so in that way all 4 tyres are contributing to cornering force instead of just the front ones (im probably wrong so if i am please correct me)
“I know some people have issues with the way I word things… and to them I say, f**k o-“ Made me cackle, didn’t expect it. Love the videos man, keep it up!
There was nothing wrong with the old video. What you said was correct, it was just worded in a way that layman would understand it. I've known about slip angle for years and have honestly never tried using it, reviewing all of my fastest laps on assetto shows it used on about 40-50% of the corners I tackle. An inexperienced person might watch these replays and not even notice it, but after actually hearing about it and knowing what it is, you start spotting it quite easily since it almost looks like a four wheel drift, but without the drift part. At any rate, keep it up, the information you're putting out is really helpful and entertaining.
Well said, like i just replied on tsrb comment yeah i saw the video as more of a pointer for those who already knew some basic vehicle dynamics and terms and it was just more of a passion project type of vid anyways at least to get people excited about the real applications of vehicle dynamics to precision driving. Honestly i figured he'd go more in depth another day anyways, from what slip angle is by definition, already knowing that term made that video commonplace (im sure likewise for many other people who've really devoted to this channel as their people interested in real precision driving) but i suppose it is kindof esoteric to the new racing community, i originally learned about the term from understanding crash dynamics because for example, often people begin to understeer in a fwd car, say in the rain upcoming a bend, but then when most people encounter the understeer they apply more counter steer thinking it'll help correct the turn but alas only makes the issue worse by increasing the slip angle (hence making the tires lose a chance to re obtain traction even further), knowing that info eventually allowed me to make the connection to how that could apply to precision driving (including drifting that actually REDUCES lap times). Actually when i understood that, however long ago its been, thats what made me realize most of the people who talk about what a "true drift" is are really kinda just talking out their asses and dont really understand much about vehicle dynamics and driving fast lol. A true drift to me had always meant anytime you dance on the edge of the traction coefficient on purpose for better cornering times than a car otherwise would make using bare grip. And it's a far too common misconception, any drivetrain can do it because weight transfer physics are identical per any car, a vehicles limit on corners is more akin to its track width wheelbase turn radius and i suppose power output at the end of the day, drivetrain has actually very little to do with the limit, drivetrain is just a predicate to a certain sect of techniques to achieve that cars limit when setup right, and really eventually, all cars need to drift a little bit to go faster on some corners on any track and road condition, besides maybe on a steep uphill then traction is precious for any car especially fwd, you'd need a lot of power to be any exception. But yeah it wad a fine video. Good update keep it up 👍
@@SSmallwood I mean, the actual definition of a power slide is any slide that occurs after the apex so at exit, ANY slide that begins before the apex is technically a drift whether by feint power over scandi flick all pretty much the same entry weight transfer technique different name. But thats where we disagree, chaining is formula d drifting, be careful what you mean by chaining corners because in any true definition chaining is very slow. Not necessarily easy or harder but slow. Anybody honest who drives formula drift will tell you its just for style, just an event. Even any weight transfer technique at entry done to get the car sideways I myself still wont ever consider it a true drift unless it actually allows u to go faster and make more use of your power and momentum than otherwise possible with bare traction, theres no style points in a real race, always taking lines just to enter a drift, even if your pedal is to the floor the whole time and add however much horsepower you want- entering a drift every time, will be slower and a waste. Limit grip is fastest, proper use of traction and inertia transfer is key to being fastest that's how the inertia drift was born, or better named zero countersteer drift its the same thing, not to say zero counterseer is always necessary to be fastest that depends a bit on the car and moreso the race situation but when at the limit zero counterseer is inevitable to retain as much speed as possible. Drift cars arent at all built for that sort of driving anyways. Edit: And to be frank, i dont think theres anything more stylish than what it looks like when someone pushes their car to the limit. And there's no "just being on the limit" either, dont say that so casually like you've been there seat on your pants before. That takes balls most poeple wont ever have let alone comprehend, thats deadly on a completely safe track with almost nothing to run into, let alone guardrails and another driver in front or behind you. Take two cars within 500 pounds, give the lighter car to a drifter and 400 hp, give the heavier car to someone who wants to drive at the limit with 300 hp, both tune their cars accordingly, if the drifter drives like its formula drift and "chains corners" like your saying? They would be obliterated, every time. Doesnt matter if their foots to the floor as much as possible, taking corners like that is not only a complete waste of momentum, but will destroy your tires and/or brakes and you wouldn't last more than 3 laps on any remotely demanding togue. I gotta make sure this whole "true drifting" myth ends so ill leave this lesson here for whenever someone under this drifitng wave impression should stumble upon it, drifting can be faster, when already going really fkn fast to maintain as much speed as possible, in any case, its meant to make the most of your speed, if it doesnt do that theres no true use case.
@Gustav well... words do have definitions for a reason 😂 i mean yeah im talking a little more sports focused sure, but i literally mentioned yes it always depends on what racing scenario, going sideways is going sideways is a drift sure thats commonplace, but that sport focus is crucial to hone any TRUE understanding, rally, circuit, time attack, f1, those pro drivers are the people whom anyone who actually wants to be truly fast should always look up to, those are very real races, fastest times as it gets, and hell most even go to classes for the shit, and it just so happened after making a science out of racing those are all the terms and definitions THEY use, so id like to assume it's for a reason. Of course messing about is messing about, but on the track with time in mind a power slide was only ever called that because its after the apex, and say in a battle sure u can drift to prevent a pass absolutely theres a lot of different means to guard, but never confuse the terms coined for true speed for pointless semantics, those words have become associated that way for a reason.
Almost twenty years now this is dredging up memories of watching InitialD and then Playing Gran Turismo. I love reading the racing handbook that came with GT1. Lots of great tips in there. I always tell people if you like to drive deliver newspapers. Its all over back roads in the middle of nowhere and you really learn the track doing it six nights a week for years. I learned to drift my 98 Impreza hatch on gravel out of sheer boredom. you just start driving faster to stay awake and you learn your car very well. BUT if you do it every night somebody complains and theres a cruiser waiting eventually. I got followed and pulled over a lot but learned to deal with that too. "I'm just delivering papers, I guess I'm tired. Sorry"
The thing is, ANY time you take a corner, at 1mph or 100mph, there is slip angle on the tires. The CAR is a little sideways because of the slip angle on the rear tires, and the fronts can have the same slip angle if your steering wheel is straight, or a larger or smaller slip angle based on the steering. You use slip angle 100% of the time as there is no other way to take a turn. Each tire has a different slip angle where grip is maximum. On the 80s Toyota, it might well be 10 or 12 degrees, which is very visible, so even driving at maximum rear grip would see the entire car sideways by 10 or 12 degrees. A modern racing car probably needs about half, so it isn't as visual, but it is still 'sideways' though corners. So when you say slip angle is produced at the limit of grip, no, it is produced at any cornering speed. The limit of grip sits at a certain slip angle, but grip builds up from zero to this slip angle.
Well said. A lot of people don't understand that if a car has zero slip angle, it is going in a straight line. What people are actually trying to find is the optimum slip angle.
Ooh, nice to see you here! Question for ya, if you don't mind: Given two identical vehicles with identical tires (peak grip force), BUT a different slip angle - e.g. one with 6 degrees slip angle, one with 12 degrees slip angle, what are the differences in driving and can it be predicted which one is faster/"corners" better? I've done a few experiments in a not-so-sim game but can't find much performance difference (in lap times), only that you tend to get oversteer/understeer sooner with the less slip angle you have - but the car does seem to respond more instantly. Is this accurate? Also, is it safe to assume the lower the slip angle - the higher the peak grip? Which ballpark numbers would be appropriate for a modern race car tire? Also, is there somewhere this slip angle data for different tires can be found? Sorry for the barrage of questions 😅
@@ikt32 slip angle refers to the angle of deformation of the tyre at any one time. You have zero slip angle moving in a straight line (unless you have a toe angle). If your tyre is able to maintain a slip angle of 12 degrees without sliding, then 6 degrees is not the maximum potential of the tyre and therefore slower. If a tyre has a lower optimum slip angle, then it will break traction easier with the same inputs. Car response will be more down to setup differences, warmer tyres, stiffer suspension etc. No - slip angle does not correlate with peak grip, rather peak grip occurs at a specific slip angle which changes anyway. Your other questions are pretty impossible as there are too many variables which affect slip angle.
@@timeluster Thanks for the reply, but I'm afraid you're somewhat reading my question wrong. Given a vehicle model and track model with identical setup parameters, it should be fine to determine the differences in handling between different tire models where the peak traction is the same, but occurs at a different slip angle, right? > If a tire has a lower optimum slip angle, then it will break traction easier with the same inputs. Yes, this was clear, but aside from tighter input tolerances, given *identical* vehicles and track conditions, the optimal lap time, given perfect inputs where the slip angles never exceed the optimum slip angles significantly, shouldn't differ a lot, right? Even though it can also be assumed the vehicle with the lower optimum slip angle may respond to steering inputs quicker.
@@ikt32 hmm. if peak grip occurs at a larger slip angle then more steering input (perhaps more aggressive input) will be required to achieve the same time. A tyre with a larger optimum slip angle is likely to be a softer compound and more malleable tyre. This would suggest the rubber acts quicker to inputs, but as you suggested it would take more input to reach the peak. I assume that it relatively cancels out and gives rise to no difference in responsiveness.
No matter what, that video still helped me use any kind of sliding technique that is faster than gripping, it was still a good practice and it game me confidence about my driving abilities, so yeah, it was like a push to get better practice and skills, since touge with full grip for me is not a touge at all, so I just get bored most of the times, but you really did revived my interest in touge, I think I'm not the only one who thinks lile that, so no, that video has never been useless, thank you.
The triangle of fire postulates that you NEED all three; a comburant (oxygen), temperature (not too hot or too cold for a given combustible) and a combustible (fuel in this case) to make FIRE. You need to check all three conditions. You can't make a fire with just fuel and oxygen alone, you need to light the fuel or air up. You need to add external heat. Once the fire has took off, yes it puts off heat but you need heat to make it.
Yeah, like I don't think he did terribly with the original explanation, but using this broken analogy really made it bad. Just imagine what it'd be like if every time fuel and oxygen came into contact, you just got heat. All trees would be always burning!
I've been practicing my slip angle technique as of recent as I started my sim racing journey recently and your videos are simply amazing and have greatly helped me. And yes 0:12 you have fans!
Yes this! I notice when I’m on the touge in Single Player, I do okay. But then I try to race on a server and find myself not knowing how to really play with other cars. Ends up with me either being too careful and never passing, OR jumping the gun and resetting to avoid a pile up.
once that video started blowing up every mf on roblox car community was like "Yo Check This Out Im About To Do Slip Angle" this will probably make that start happening again great video as always, though. love watching you go relatively in depth on driving techniques
@@stephendeben1590 the roblox car community got me into cars years ago, now I don’t play roblox anymore but I was one of the top racers in spec velocita back before everyone moved from vsim to mrt and A chassis, then vsim kinda died a little when we moved to mrt and that’s when I got horizon 4 and now I’m in forza stage but I’m still pretty slow in fh4
when watching your slip angle video it made me realize i was already doing it sometimes, just not really knowing what it was, your vid made me aware of what it was and helped me apply it more often, so definitely not useless used to almost avoid it due to the excessive tire wear, now i've done a little fiddling on the car and some extra tire management
I don't know anything about cars, I just watched half of initial D. But slip angle feels and looks like the epitome of driving to me now, thanks to these videos.
The sim racing channel that reached 10k subs regardless to a broken steering wheel but rather with insight on racing mechanics and content. Well played.
Firstly, I liked how you packaged the information. Easy to understand if you already possess basic knowledge of driving techniques. Now, this is just a guess, but I think that God Arm (Initial D Stage 4) would be a better representation of slip angle than Takumi. I am a novice, so I may be mistaken, but I'd like to know how God Arm and Takumis cornering techniques differ. Is it that God Arm is using better slip angle or is Takumi? P.S. You are now partially an initial d channel lol
God Arm corners when the tires on the tires are on their limit of grip, what people call slip angle, Takumi corners when all 4 tires have gone beyond their limit (4 wheel drifiting)
@@detectivepayne3773 mhm, its what racers irl should truly strive for, the find the limit of a tyres grip and stay on it. That said, I'm still really curious about the benefits and drawbacks of each of their techniques, the subtle nuances.
I don't play aseto but I have been a gt player since I was 3, when I saw your first video the first thing I thought was "ohhh that's what it's called" it's a near perfect explanation while keeping it simple and not too confusing. It actually helped me further understand what I was doing and why it worked.
There is a 1h30min video of a professor at some university explaining car grip including slip angle. If u really want to understand the limit its a must watch. A very very simple way to explain the "slip" is the state between oversteer and understeer + using the momentum of the car.
Your channel is great that bit at the end "fuck o-" *continues video* Had me laughing at the break table at work. 😂 I think this video will help me figure out the best setup for learning slip angle. I'm already on average 4 seconds behind the top, need to close that gap.
To reach the limits of limits of a car. It needs good suspension. Corner balancing will bring forth the full potential of the vehicle added with slip angle. Then to refine the slip angle, the cup trick is always the go to method
Just a heads up, the fire triangle shows what you need for combustion. You need all three; fuel, oxygen, and heat. If you have gasoline soaked loads sitting in a cold room, it won't ignite. You need heat.
I gave an explanation on Slip Angle vs Speed Drifting in my discord. I still appreciated your video though, nice work! Hopefully on topics on speed drifting I can maybe help contribute? I've been running touge and speed drifting in Gran Turismo for nearly a decade now and about a year in Assetto Corsa 🙏🏾❤
the way you talk and address that you feel like your points don't get across/across well, like wow i imagine what things you think everyday, day to day..
I'm already subscribed, but you got another like for the 'f*** o-' (nicely done there btw, cutting off the bit that's NOT offensive lol). I watched the previous video and remember thinking that I agreed with it all, the only thing I would've said was that slip angle is just something that comes naturally after lots of time playing with the throttle and learning about grip, so I probably wouldn't recommend anyone trying to actually learn it outright. But as a video explaining it? It was excellent, and I learned stuff myself. I don't grip race, but just by learning to drift over the last year or so I've noticed that I can hold a very, very minimal angle with very low rev throttle, really on the very border of the point where the car falls out of the angle and straightens up. But I use it to drift along straights and connect corners. It's something I've only started noticing was possible within the last few weeks and I've been solidly drifting for a while now on AC. I needed to learn a whole bunch of things first: left foot braking being crucial. But what do people expect? You can't just throw up a screen full of equations and tell people 'it'll take five years, good luck'. Your video was to _explain_ the process not necessarily teach it(which IMO is basically not possible because it's something so instinctive). And it did that.
Saying slip angle is a result for me was enough to understand what it means and why i felt « drifting » was faster for me sometime but it was not a drift... Awesome
I didn't think about it too much before but I started to notice that I began to steer less than I used to as I got faster. When all tires are ever so slightly slipping they are also giving it their all so when you get faster you just start doing it automatically
nope no problems I have been doing slip angle rarely at some sim races and still suck at it. I really just don't know I do actually drift and grip run at a time.
I thought the first video was fine and explained slip angle very well. There's probably some muppets and noobs out there that can't grasp from the context that slip angle is an advanced technique. That's their problem not yours. Great content. Keep it coming. 👍🏼
he just explained that slip angle isn't a technique, slip angle is the completely wrong term for it, you wouldn't see a car like that slide, it would be gripping but on the absolute edge of it, with a very slight barely noticeable rotation of the rear
Having just recently gotten a decent wheel and pedals and slowly getting into little more serious racing than just using a controller i realized i have been using slip angle in most games in certain situations usually by accident but still realizing i have a slight "slide" with no counter steer and on the throttle :D
I usually drive something AWD like an Evo, or possibly a Skyline. I play a game on ROBLOX called Midnight Racing: Tokyo, or MR:T. ROBLOX physics aren't the best, nor is the suspension in-game. Though since I had took a break from the game for a while and came back, I noticed I had slip angle on every corner. I didn't really know what slip angle was at the time, it just came naturally.
actually, it is not a triangle either... by driving on the limit, you are producing (as minimal as possible) oversteery slip angle, therefore a faster lap time........it is a straight line
I guess these kinds of things really are really based on trial and error; basically experience, because when I try this slip angle, sometimes it fits just right and that's about it
Depends on amount of traction the surface has, how worn as well as how good the tires used are, the amount of torque and whp the car has, the weight on the car, the cars aerodynamics and the corner that you're trying to take. The speed varies based on those parameters. A worn out tire taking a tight corner can easily be at it's limit even in 1st gear. It's something that has to be learned by doing it one self. Nobody can really tell you this.
That’s not how the fire triangle works… LOL The product is the combustion. To create it, you need Fuel, Oxygen and Heat to initiate the reaction. Unless you’re dealing with hypergolic fuels that pretty much react on contact, heat is an essential input. Think of fuel and oxygen as 2 shy people that needs outside motivation (heat input) to start dancing. Once they’ve started dancing, they generate their own self motivation (heat from combustion) which is enough to sustain them without outside motivation
slip angle for me has just recently started to come from my "drift" times and grip times being essentially the same, only after a couple thousand hours have they started to blend together
@@detectivepayne3773 Well my PB on akina starts with drift, doesn't matter if I grip or drift particular competitive corners, the time ends up the same for me
Nah man, most of us got this from the first just through inference. The video was good, anyone who considered it a "meme" is just an elitist idiot. Keep up the amazing videos man. Absolutely love em.
Your first Video made sense to me but i already use what you called slip angle in sims and have been for more than a decade, Keichi Tsuchiya calls it high speed drift, and God hand In Initial D 4th stage said it was neither grip nor drift or the Ideal drift BLAH BLAH BLAH i think your explanation was much better than their's and it sounds better when talking to grip purest about a way to drive faster, especially when most arcade games and even some sim-cades do not have good enough physics to allow you to utilize it, but i HAVE used it in my My own car IRL so i know it is not a video game exploit
FWD is at the limit of traction most of the time, but because it's driven by the front wheels, it doesn't produce oversteer or drift/slip, it instead produces oodles of lovely understeer and puts you into a tree or wall on the outside. Essentially FWD is the worst type of drive, from a technical view point, for going fast as well as for taking corners.
@@pierreblack4941 Yeah, but what can we do. FWD is the cheapest shit to produce and leaves more room in the cabin and boot while allowing the most artsy fartsy nonsense for designers who wanna be "avant-garde"... Plus FWD is easier to drive for people with no driving sense and no tangible driving skill as long as they stick to the ass backwards "economical" method of keep as low rpm as possible, which effectively sacrifices all control that the driver has for less fuel used. It's where the idiotic notion of power in the low end originated. It's why for anyone who grew up with old school proper RWD cars and AWD cars that were NA find most modern cars not really all that fun or drivable. And conversely most people who learned to drive and grew up with modern shitboxes find old cars that DEMAND skill and capabilities from the driver to be "hard to drive" or "lacking power" or "hard to handle". It's a difference that's just inherent due to times changing.
It depends on the corner and the surface. Low traction surface 4 wheel drift is faster, high traction surface 4 wheel drift done correctly is literally just this. Slip angle as a technical term refers to how much your rear tires slip due to being on the limit of grip. On high traction surfaces you want just enough slip to not have to counter steer, i.e. to 4 wheel drift. On low traction surfaces like off road in rally, it could actually be more useful to go a bit further into the zone where you have to counter steer, on some corners. At the end of it, it all depends on the corners you're taking. Not so much the car. Unless your car is FWD then forget everything and just learn left foot breaking to keep your self from plowing into the outer wall cause your car understeers for days when trying to go fast.
If it's agregate on runs, it can make a bit of difference in real life, but in AC a lot just go back to pits at the end of the run, so it's kind of insignificant. You might feel the wear slightly earlier on the longer Touge, or if you apply it to longer circuits, you might have a slightly earlier pit stop.
tire wear doesn't matter in a real downhill run because road tires would last weeks being driven hard, not a few minutes, that's initial d's biggest gimmick
So basically what you’re saying is that every time i tried weight transitioning, and i didnt quite enter a drift while still managing to get around a corner, ive been using slip angle? Guess i alr know how to initiate slip angle then
