@@coasteraddict10 imo, they should have had dragons be the best type still and nerf them in a better way. But if they do want to balance the types dragon being resisted by fairy would be a double edged sword for them. For one, outrage and Draco Meteor lock in/lower stats for resist, and not immunes, but also dragons would just evolve to hit harder to break farries
I really appreciate this as the long-awaited continuation of the History of Ice Types all those years ago. Great video as per usual. Love when you make podcast-esque content.
Why do you think this is "podcast-esque" content? Really i don't understand, this looks to me an in depth analysis that BKC usually brings in his vids.
I wonder if they could have nerfed the dragon type in a less ham-fisted way? For example, they could make ice resist dragon, and it could probably be given a thematically appropriate reason (a cold-blooded dragon might not be able to launch an all-out attack on an ice-cold opponent, similar to how a fighting-type can't launch a full-force attack against the toxic skin/envenomed barbs of a poison-type). It would provide an additional dragon resist, while also giving ice a relevant resistance. On the other hand, fairy's complete immunity to dragon makes the least thematic sense out of any immunity. A resistance makes enough sense, but there's no real justification as to why draco meteor does 0 damage to clefable. I suppose the main thing that irritates me about the fairy type is just how blunt its inclusion is, and how it basically stole the "dragonslayer" role that justified ice's uniquely bad defensive typing while ice got nothing to compensate for it. tl;dr: The ice type was done dirty.
And it took two more generation to really fully announce that Ice was a minmaxing type, given how only Galarian Darmanitan, Kyurem, Weavile, and Slush Rush Arctozolt did well in Gen 8. Then Snow replaced Hail so that basically acknowledges Ice Pokémon lack defenses. And that was in a world where Ice types could terastalize to not be Ice type. Even given the rebirth of Ice types’ purpose, Ice being good was a Gen 1 thing like every other gimmick, like Megas and Z-Moves and Dynamax and Terastalization
@@LeonSKennedy-b9v yeah ice types were only really good in gen 1 because fire and fighting sucked, and stab blizzard was good. But blizzard was a great move on a lot of Pokémon, not only ice types. ice as a type is carried by it's moves and good ice types, which are more often than not dual typed.
@@toxic0470 Not really. Ice was all around excellent. It was only resisted by two types, all of the ice types had good stats, Articuno in particular had a massive 125 special making its Blizzard the strongest non boosted special move in the game and defensively they had a lot going for them as well. Like you said fire and fight were not hot stuff, steel did not exist, being frozen was a KO in gen 1 so Ice types being immune to the status was very good. Every single gen 1 ice type was either excellent or at worst great
Great video but, contrary to what you say, I clearly remember an era in DPP when Kingdra was EVERYWHERE on the ladder. I'm talking like 80% of the teams or something like that. It was considered the best dragon after the broken ones got banned, so people just started running it as the next meteor/outrage spammer in their place. It could run a multitude of sets and items (choice, lefties, lum, haban berry. Special set, mixed set, double dance set, substitute set). It was so ubiquitous people where thinking "maybe the problem is not the broken Pokemons, maybe we need to ban outrage as a move".
I think Gen 3 hit the best sweetspot. Gens 4 and especially 5 are overwhelmingly dragon focused, but past Gen 6 the type rides the razors edge of being completely useless and completely dominating in a way that tends to make using Dragon moves unfun. Which is definitely better than Gens 4/5 to me, but is also just a little sad.
I wonder if baxcalibur with it's move that is literally better outrage will bring some of the terrors of gen 4-5 back (once everything else broken is banned obviously)
Fairies have just become the new dragons. I think it might make sense if fairies were weak to bug and only resisted Dragon instead of being immune to it
It’s the dragons themselves not the typing that’s good. Most of the dragons just have high base stats and a big move pool. Dragonite, salamence, garchomp, hydreigon, latí twins all have 600 bst. There are no good dragons with a less bst. Gf completely fucked up the typing with fairies.
I think it'd be thematically appropriate to make ice, grass and bug resist Fairy. I feel like it'd make sense for Fairy to have less power over those closer to nature than they are (such as the plants and insects,) as well as those representing something as natural and inevitable as winter.
I know I’m commenting before the video even starts so pee pee poo poo Do you think you could do a video on the fall of the eeveelutions gens 3-6 ? I find it fascinating that almost all of the great eeveelutions in each of these gens manage to go from metagame staples to being never seen and borderline unviable by the end of the gen/post-gen
@@crenando288 yeah, it’s weird how they’ve just fallen off so hard Even in gen 6 UU, vaporeon has fallen off even despite that being scald central and it having water absorb
From my understanding, the reason the eeveelutions "fell off" is because they kept getting spammed in tiers they simply had no place being in, thus preventing them from dropping to a tier they would have potentially been a lot better in, and so they're officially a part of a tier that they're utterly terrible in purely due to their usage (Jolteon in Gen 5 OU, Vaporeon in Gen 6 UU, Jolteon again in Gen 7 RU are good examples).
Dragon types were incredibly powerful even after the nerf for them (when the fairy type was introduced in gen 6) and dragon types in gen 1 wasn’t the best to use but after gen 4 was when the dragon type was at its peak dragon types had a good amount of power and even with the fairy type and the lack of dragon moves did impact them but they still had a good prominence in the competitive scene
I'm probably not the only one on here to leave a comment saying that I love using your Drag-Mag team, but I love using your Drag-Mag team! Ok, so it was also modified from Ciele, but you get the point! It's a fun team to use, and guarantees that one way or another, it's always going to be a quick match! I wish that I was an active part of the community during Gen 5. Just the thought of people downright panicking, and all the hair-pulling, hand-wrangling, anxious-ranting, DS-dropping activity that comes with it makes me snicker!
I have 2 questions. 1. How would gen 3 look if T-tar had Intimidate instead of Sand Stream? 2. What if Fairy wasn't immune to Dragon but just resists it?
Ttar would've probably been less relevant, not irrelevant tho. It's stat distribution is crazy and intimidate is always a great ability. Now it can win the lead matchup vs banded salamence for example. Metagross would be higher in usage thx to clear body. It would switch into snorlax all day long even more then before and can probably survive a banded explosion. What speaks against its usage rate is actually rain. Without any way of setting up sand so easily, rain will become more viable. Also there are swift swimmers, there aren't any sand rush mons in gen3 so rain seems more logical. Then there is nidoking/queen who also don't want to be intimidated. Skarmorys usage rate probably goes down if ttars rate goes down, which means physical HO without ttar (but even with) will be more viable. Milotic loves a meta where there is more rain and less sand so its usage would go up more, especially as there will be more moltres around with less ttar around. Calm mind Baton pass celebi will be alot more usual with less ttar as celebi and suicune can use there leftovers effectively now which is huge for them, spdef celebi becomes a ttar check instead of running from it. Boom teams are probably the same as always, but I can also imagine gengar Pickrate going up as a countermeasure to celebi/suicune. Especially boom gengar as that really punches holes into cm/BP celebi teams. Flygon as a ttar check will be less viable with less ttar around as that's the reason it became OU. To your second question I can't give you that much information over the generation, otherwise this will be an entire roman. But what will be for sure is that dragons would continue to thrive as there aren't too many defensive fairy's. most of the time they have better spdef or all-round bulk that's neither bad nor good. I hope you got some answers, I'm not a top player but I have some knowledge of all the metas after all the years I've played pokemon. :) Have a good day!
whats up with the idea of giving Ttar Intimidate ive seen EKaizo with Intimidate on Ttar ive seen Radical Red HC giving Ttar Intimidate the concept feels so out of nowhere
@@butteredsalmonella I'm fairly sure those hacks are mainly focused around singleplayer, and in singleplayer (especially nuzlockes) the constant chip from sand probably hurts far more than it helps. Changing ttar's ability makes it less potent on sand-immune teams, but also makes it far more generically splashable on more mixed teams, particularly in nuzlockes where you don't get to hand-pick your team composition.
I think a pretty uncontroversial opinion but I really like Dragon in gen 3, they are cool but not broken, it's just nice Also, Dragon Claw on Lati@s is nice outside of the Mono attacking variant by easing the burden of prediction, if I run Recover 3 attacks then Dragon Claw is frequently the third attack for me because yes HP Fire destroys the few Steel types especially in Sun but Dragon Claw is just so consistent and you don't need to predict between hitting Groudon or Kyogre on the switch and unlike Psychic you still slam Mewtwo very very hard. I dunno, I just like Dragon Claw on the Lati, it's just really nice
Most Dragon Types learn a combination of Iron Head, Iron Tail, or Flash Cannon to hit fairy type as a whole. Only 14 fairy types take neutral damage from Steel type moves & only 13 take neutral damage from Poison type moves. 17 Fairy types have base speeds over base 95 without items or boosts. Most fully evolved dragons have base speeds over base 95. Dragon is still one of the best typings you can have on a pokemon.
While I think Dragons offensively got shafted too hard (lol what even is misty terrain wtf man) I do enjoy how in Fairy gens you often seek out Dragons in the builder for their defensive capabilities, the things that Lati@s, Kommo-o, HelmetChomp, Hydreigon etc do are all so unique it's awesome
I made a full return to Pokemon during Sun and Moon, but I stopped playing Pokemon shorly after Black and White came out, so in a lot of ways in my mind dragons are still THE top shit, I really know they're not, especially not since fairy, but y'know... XD
I miss the OP dragon era. Dragons never got a true compensation for the introduction of fairy types other than to rely on their alternative stab in case of Clefable or Tapus wanting to switch in on them. Dragapult and Garchomp alone carried the dragon typing in SwSh. SV may be the return of the Dragon Era in more ways than one. There are so many great additional dragons with incredible niches all of their own. Also, not only do Dragons keep their stabs from terastalizing but gain brand new defensive and offensive options from it too. You may start seeing dragons as the main terastalizing force moving forward as the meta develops and the broken paradox mons get banned.
their compensation was usually their amazing BST’s and amazing move pool coverage many of which contained a decent poison or steel move so that if set up, could at least hugely chunk or kill the fairy tryna ruin its day
The bad thing about dragon is mostly the stab, because why would you run a move that is only super effective against itself and does nothing against fairies, which are basically everywhere now.
nope, it would've been serviceable had it not locked you into the move; 90 bp off 100 spatk in a gen where everything has maxed out evs is fine, but not nearly impressive enough to warrant the lock
Dragon type needs a rework. I think it needs to be super effective vs more types. I could see it hitting steel and normal super-effectively. I also like the idea of a triangle of type effectiveness between Dragon, Fairy, and Steel. Fairy is weak to Poison and Steel because these types symbolize human industry, which eradicated wilderness, the habitat in which the magical fairy type thrive. I think you could similarly make Dragon type super effective against these, as the dragon type can be thought to symbolize the sort of “wrath” of nature, which represents a very real threat to human civilization. Or, instead of super effective against poison, make it super effective against normal types. In fairy tales and folk lore, we tend to think of the normal or average citizens of a kingdom getting the brunt of a dragon’s wrath. They’re the ones who are powerless to defend themselves, so I can see normal types getting hit by Dragon for super effective damage. But this whole thing about it only being super effective against itself just seems out-dated at this point.
I’d rather either bring back pursuit or have steel resist dark again. People would actually like lucario and cobolion. And then if anything is gonna happen between dragons and steels. What if only dragons resist steel. Whats a dragon gonna do when ur just a guy in armor? All pokemechanics are rpg based. Dragons would just blow up ur shit. Steel is already a phenomenon typing. And dragons are so ass that unless ur zard X w/ tuff claws. Dragon claw is useless. Scale shot demands loaded dice. Glaive rush, darts, are signature moves.
@@patrickburke2187 Im good either or, because dark is one of the best offensive types rn and ghosts go crazy. But dragon being super effective on steel normal is mad stupid. Steel not resisting dragon already changes a lot. Pre fairy it was possible to 2h KO steels if ur dragon was really like that. If steel isn’t resisting dragon. Might as well go back to resisting steels
@@Interiorcrocodilealigator10838 Are you saying that dragon doesn’t need an offensive boost, it needs a defensive boost, so we shouldn’t be considering adding types that it’s super effective against, but resistances instead?
@@patrickburke2187 no r u shelling rn? Cuz u Alr said u wanted drag to clap steel. And considering dragon is already a sought after terra. No it does not need a defensive boost. It bodies the entire elemental wheel, while crippled by ice, gets the better of the better half of bolt beam. And most drag secondary’s match well into grounds easily the best type. Only the best grounds can step up to dragons and still liable of getting ran over
I think part of the downfall of dragons was weirdly the nerf to steel. If steel still resisted dark and ghost, hydreigon and dragapult would probably be running dragon + fire coverage rather than dark / ghost stab
dragons are weird, since they only hit themselves super effective they either all dominate and keep each other in check or all suck and aren’t worth using to counter each other. ghosts are kinda the same i guess
i feel like ghost type has always had more utility with having two immunities, spinblocking, being trap immune in gen 8-9, gengar being immune to arena trap gens 3-7, and a good distribution of status moves. dragons definitely are more defined by their offensive dominance and check themselves better than ghost's do (other than aegislash and mimikyu because of how good having swords dance and shadow sneak are)
@@cryptwalker2439 true true but a good way to deal with ghosts in a post pursuit meta is to have a faster ghost or prey on secondary typing. similar to dragons before fairies lol
@@highgogoat Also, dragon didn't even get a proper attack in gen 1, so its category was a bit arbitrary (ghost is kinda similar, but its physical nature can be excused by the fact that its only proper attack in gen 1 was lick).
I don't hate the fairy type conceptually, but I really don't like how blatant GF's favoritism was. Fairy probably has the most min-maxed type matchup you could ask for, resisting several relevant types (and being super-effective vs them,) only resisted by 3 types (2 of which were previously defensive liabilities) and only weak to steel and poison, which don't have good offensive reach otherwise. Also, it's kinda funny how Xerneas has a type advantage over both other members of its trio.
Honestly its gen 5 you should hate as it is its fault fairies had to become a thing. Gen 4 definitely started the mess but gen 5 went so over the board with OP dragons and fighters no wonder fairies had to become a thing. Not sure why dark was done dirty though
@@patrickripleyiii134 There wasnt really a way to balance them without an OP hard counter otherwise steels would be just fine. Maybe make Ice resistant to dragon was the best option otherwise they should have at least not given dragons boosting moves. Latios most definitely did not need calm mind, whoever gave Garchomp Swords Dance should have been fired immediately and Salamence was fine with DD but giving it Outrage is where they effed up
