A Military Analysis of The Long Night 

From the writers or the fans? Whichever group that is a ridiculous defence.

@@kingemperorpenguin1 Fans, not even the writers can make the mistake of saying that I reckon.

I thought as much. It wouldn't surprise me though, considering the quality of this episode.

That is a real defense for these bad tactics? 404 error for brain. Hahahah. That defense is laughable i say laughable. It's so easy to counter. If this was to set up Arya. The results could of been done by using good tactics. Which would of aid in setting up Arya to a greater degree. For then the enemy would of been weaken, due to higher losses. Making it easier to get close to the Night King, due to having less undead to sneak pass or avoid. Along with more friendly allies still alive, that could of kept the remaining undead in check, long enough for her to get close without fear of being found out or keep them busy so they can't target Arya. Not to forget, employing these bad tactics would lead to many more dead. That could be turned into undead minions, making it harder to pull off the plan, not easier. Given that idea applies they didn't put to use their super handle dragons, who are super effective against undead. Seriously, you don't even need to know the first thing about military tactics to know using them is a good idea. Given has anyone who used that defense, play pokemon? You are rewarded in pokemon for targeting the enemy weakness with bonus damage, which could be enough to one shot the enemy pokemon. Saving you from taking any damage in return. A key member of the enemy team gone, without having suffered any losses yourself. Which going back to this idea. So they lose their cavalry, giving countless corpses the undead can now bring back to fill their ranks. Very useful cavalry, that could of help to scout out or find the White walker positions or Night King, giving Arya the information she needs to get into the correct position or just to pass down useful information to the rest of the army. Not only that but if that is the plan, why have the fire mage buff their weapons with something that can be useful against the undead? Would it have seen two easy if they just send out the cavalry to their doom without any change of fighting back? Don't use their dragons to full effect, that could of easily have wiped out a great deal of the horde, which could of possibly have removed the need for Arya to sneak up on the Night King and could of have better the odds, allowing oh possibly say the Night King to be corner or rather then a one on one duel, a five vs one, with all the warriors taking on the Night King. So they put Arya down in the crypt. Where she has to get out of the crypt and then move onto the battlefield to get into position to stop the Night King. So no one fully manning the walls and waiting so long to perform that action, with the archers being lazy and not doing their jobs. Giving Arya little time to move into position, rather then giving her that possible extra time she might need. If we accept for some reason if this was the plan. Putting her in the crypt was a good idea. So they left the undead dragon alive, for Snow to yell at for reasons. Which if it took flight again, could of been used to burn anyone that tries to get close to their lord and master the Night King. Stopping someone who is not immune to dragon flame like Arya in their tracks. Heck given the Night King holding Arya for a moment, could of been long enough for her to be roasted to death if the dragon remember it was a dragon and could fly. Given hey the Night King seems immune to dragon flame, would only kill Ayra. So breathing dragon fire down on it's lord and master would not be a issue. Even if one goes with the idea Arya was meant to kill the Night King the whole time as the master plan. There is still so much wrong with it. Given how they put their own plan at risk of failing more then once. Along with their plan in general, makes it harder to reach their desire goal. That is a failure of a plan if i have ever seen one. That and video games teach people to use things that are effective against the mobs you are fighting. The dragons are a unlimited super attack or should be. Making it a no brainer to put these dragons to very good use, as much as possible. Given you don't have to worry about them running out of dragon breath. Sure the undead hordes have numbers but dragon breath is aoe, which works well against massive numbers. The worst thing you have to worry about is their stamina, which doesn't seem to have been much of an issue. Given how they were able to keep flight in this battle for a fair part of it, before doing the whole put dragon down on ground full of corpses and put dragon queen at risk and her dragon. Which if this is part of the whole hahahah let us make ourselves look weak to lure in the Night King, so Arya can kill them. It's stupid. You are risking a dragon, one of your most valuable resources against the undead and someone who can ride them, in return for trying to fool your foe. You not only risk a morale lost but also giving the enemy a free dragon they can use against you, turning one of your most valuable resources against you. They couldn't even kill off one, how where they plan on handling two possible undead dragons? The risk would not be worth the reward. Most of this plan to set up Arya, if not all of it, relays on fooling the enemy by risk strengthening them or risk your key player failing to get in position in time to perform the duty they are meant to carry out, aka Ayra killing the Night King. This plan has two much risk for two little benefit.

MauLer good to see you here Long Man!

Ah, I see. You are German aswell.

@@isbimperialsecuritybureau2192 Tze germanz are hier!

@M. Fritschle - Same. xD

Pardon my ignorance, but what does that mean?

Wait but doesn't "nur" mean "Only"?

And Jon beat us over the head with that fact every time he had to explain the undead army to someone. But then when it came to the actual battle he completely forgot I guess. Ygritte was right, he knows nothing. Hiding people in the crypts too SMH lol. When I first heard that plan I thought they were faking us out. Ahhhh they're not going to tell us they dug up and cremated all the corpses before hand so we'll be worried and think they're stupid for nothing. Nope, turns out they really are stupid.

@@eternalreign2313 to be fair, the crypts should have held them, it was plot convenience.

Good point. I suppose the answer is because the Night King just wanted to kill Bran quickly.

Why do you think time would give the Night King any additional advantage? He already had effectively infinite zombies. Regarding the fortified position the defenders had, you saw how it did virtually nothing to help them. The only mistake he made was having the overconfidence to believe he personally was immune to all possible attacks.

@@hemtt543 The defended position didn't stop them just because the defenders didn't know what the hell they were doing. I mean, seriously, they PUT THE TREBUCHETS ON THE GROUND IN FRONT OF EVERYTHING!

Well if he sieged the city, he is giving humans the time to organize, he may be thinking than it is wiser to get a costly victory, and use speed to attack position still unprepared, than get a easy win and later affront better prepared army and better prepared position. And with the ability of the night king of easily resplenishing his army we can uderstand why he prefer speed over caution.

Because the entire enemy army is standing in front of their fortifications? But a proper siege would've been glorious. Especially if the NK didn't even bother to attack - "You know I could blow up your walls with my dragon any second I want, right? But nah, I'll just stand here while you slowly starve and freeze to death. Winter has fucking come!" That way even their moronic charge would make sense (it might've worked now, if they had even bothered to discuss a siege). Beautiful idea, man.

I always find what people have to say fascinating, from different practical plans and strategies for the battle as it is presented. To some like me who theorize and come up with logical ways for the Night King to be used better. Aside from the kill switch of the army. I personally hate as to how little and mundane he did and could do. This is the 1 episode (if you ask me it should have been a full season in an of itself but whatever.) That would contain all of the magic. This grounded world rocked by ancient and malicious magic of an long forgotten age returned for ultimate revenge. Play with the weaknesses and have an antagonist that isn't a simple blank slate with no reason or higher purpose. Are they a force of nature? All the better they can be given character through their actions.

tare.

I love it even more that he tries to be nuanced and unbiased to break this down😀

Thanks for bringing this up. The lazy anachronism of having commanders say "fire" to their archers is emblematic of the lazy writing the last 2 seasons of GOT devolved into, akin to, oh I don't know, leaving a coffee cup or water bottle on the set when filming or something...

@@BenignViewer in season 6 they said "loose" but now all of a sudden they say "fire"

@@georgevelis4651 yeah the show really went downhill in terms of the care put in by the producers.

Vortigern, “Knock! Loose!”

"oh shit, evacuate"

Not only that, but is has been stated in the series by Robert Baratheon that you do *not* fight a fucking horde on the battlefield, but on the castle walls. That was his plan for the dothraki and Varis was in that fucking meeting. So yea, there is no excuse.

Especially considering the Dothraki are their best archers.

>someone else noticed Pretty much anyone in the internet is poking fun at artillery in the front Also despite this battle being an absolute fucking mess and disaster of tactics I think no one wants to stay in a castle against a foe with dragons when Harrenhall was a thing But that's pretty fucking weak of an excuse since if the Nightking and Viserion show up there's two dragons to counter him That and Drogon is supposed to be Balerion reborn so what other dragon can even stand against him alone much less him having backup

That artillery made little sence too; its made for attacking stationary fortifications, not mobile undead infantry. Ballista with dragonglass heads on the walls would have yeilded better results, as well as more spiked trenches to funnel the undead into overlaying kill zones. Turn their own numbers against them & maximize your defensive fortifications to maximum effeciency. The Dothraki with dragonglass arrows could have been stationed on the flanks to swing around both sides after the undead charged to attack the whitewalker lieutenants specifically; the destruction of these dozen or so unprotected enemy undead would eliminate a hundred or so underlings each, making their destruction #2 on the list of things to do, just under the Night King.

Dreammirror Brony even better they could fill a clay pot with dragon glass shards or something so when the pots are lobbed and make contact with the horde they would burst and pepper dragon glass shrapnel all over the undead.

a wild smudboy appears ^^ tell Mauler about the shoutout, if you get the chance, he should enjoy this ^^ enjoy your content, BTW

"... or scouting." The lack of recon really bothers me (in addition of all the points already made). The defending forces have the _ultimate_ recon unit at their disposal, in fact, the BEST recon unit in all of Westeros: Bran. Why did he never use his powers to figure out the enemy's setup or strategy? Why did he never tell anyone where the Night King is? Why did he never take over someone or something to try and help the battle?

@@MyReligionIs2DoGood To be fair team moron also had the second best recon unit in all of Westeros (the flying dragons) before Bran showed up and they didn't use them to scout , despite being out-maneuvered and ambushed several times. Arguably they also had the third best 'recon' with Varys' spy network and they didn't use that either. So at least they're consistently retarded.

nah he would refuse your summons thus subverting your expectations

@@thevikingmusketeer9696 it worked for me the franchise was assassin's Creed

that's me sometimes when playing Civillization and i rush gunpowder and sailing but haven't invented an economy.

I mean, I once played a game of civilization and neglected fishing boat tech for so long that I had to research it AFTER inventing the tank.

​@@barleysixseventwo6665who needs fish when you have TANK 😤😤💪💪

I literally came down here to comment that.... bastard

Which grand moff are you?

@@nobleactual7616 Grand Moff Ardus Kaine. Wilhuf Tarkin's replacement after he died on the Death Star. This put him in charge of Oversector Outer. After Endor Kaine founded the breakaway state of the Pentastar Alignment with his flagship the Executor class Super Star Destroyer Reaper.

well during middleages, incompetent commanders would forget recon quite often. costed the life of a good part of the frech nobility

@@patriciusvunkempen102 The romans are particularly famous for neglecting recon... The competent generals who didn't were the exception. People like Caesar are incredible, but most roman generals just relied on their superior troops.

Well good for you. It didn't break mine

did you skipp S7 E6 ?

On some parts you mix Helm's Deep with Minas Tirith. Unless you're talking about the book(s) (which in that case I haven't read).

@@Crawdithe98 Hey I did say it was a copied comment lol. Might be a few mistakes. 😂

@@sammydray5919 Fair enough. Regardless of mistakes, the LotR battles are still better than this mess.

*Thank you* my friend. LOTR will always prevail

and why didnt the Night King initially hit Winterfell with the storm and undead dragon fire to explode all the buildings and walls like Dany did in the finale?

@@artruisjoew5473 The episode established however that the dragons where not a threat to him, bathing in dragon fire with no issues

@@artruisjoew5473 Again though there is no credible sense of threat to the Night Kings dragon We saw in the season before it was able to unleash more destruction than Drogon at peak plot armour when it annihilated the wall - combined with the fact that the series makes it clear that the undead gain a form of unholy strength that means even a fragile wight is as strong as well built characters

they forgot... what a castle is for

@@DraconimLt Exactly, both stupid writers and delusional fans

Well that and he had to learn about the show lol. He didn't seem to know a lot of the crucial plot points of how and why, not that they were important to know to critique the gawd awful military strategy that they attempted use.

I am not sure the helm deep would be a really interesting battle to analyse it is a classic siege, there is no extremely interesting strategic move, the defender just defend what they can as long as they can an retreat when the position is no longer defendable, there is even some quite stupid move from the uruk, like attacking the wall they are about to blew up, and letting troop getting close of the explosion site ( but it still kind of make sense within the universe since uruk are seen as expandable and blindly loyal.), it is beautifull battle, but not on the strategic side, where it is kind of simple.

@@benjamin1359870 it is simple strategically, but not dumb

benjamin1359870. I agree, the strategies used at Helms Deep are fairly straightforward and don't really need an analysis imo, but the design of the castle could certainly use some work (though I still love that castle). Shadiversity made a good video about the castles of LOTR and in it he pointed out some design issues with Helms Deep like the merlons being too short to cover the defenders, no proper gatehouses, not enough protruding towers and worst of all... no MACHICOLATIONSSSAH!

benjamin1359870 the reason they attacked the wall they were going to blow up was due to several reasons this was the first use of gunpowder they didn’t know the power of it and to damage morale

@@benjamin1359870 helms deep isn't even really big at all, there wasn't much they could do from a brilliant strategical standpoint.

@Democratic Communist While this is true for the real world, we have to consider that in the Game of Thrones universe many females become powerful leaders. Thus having a noble girl as an officer is not too far fetched.

@Griever Or under basically any state that is about to collapse.

Right? Gender is just a social construct and in that moment they identified as men so that's good enough. It's current year so sexual dimorphism can fuck right off.

Very true, for every Josmyn Peckledon, there are scores of dead children littering the battlefields

The dothraki could've been used to also stretch out the zombie horde. Attack, lure a swarm to the left. Then hit the right and lure it away. Lure both hordes upward, toward night walker lines before disengaging and moving back. Basically, make it so the zombies hitting the infantry are weaker because some of them are chasing horses.

I think the main point of that particular argument was that having women and eunuchs as part of the front line wasn't wise. Well that and the fact that no one brought their shields that day. Or the fact that they stood OUTSIDE OF THE CASTLE! But yeah I think the muscle strength of the front line was the actual point of criticism there.

@@sebastianburbeck2345 The muscle strength argument is irrelevant because 1. to kill the white walkers requires fire/dragonglass/Valerian steel, not brute force and 2. benching 225 kilos will do fuck all against a tidal wave of hundreds of thousands of undead berserkers.

@@hainekohanefuwa5308 I mean... Yes, but no. The idea of the foot soldiers is to kill the enemy, the more force you put into a blow will usually equal a kill, even if it isn't with Dragon Glass, stalling the enemy or even disabling them is an advantage. Generally speaking, men are more powerful in upperbody strength, what we use for fighting, so for maximum efficiency, men generally fight. I will say this though, if enough training is given, a soldier is a soldier, so a body is a body, doing its job for the greater good ( hopefully, not here though). The point of children however... Yeah, no, pull them out and set them up as medics if you absolutely HAVE to use them.

​@@Dragonspirit223 The idea of foot soldiers is to kill the enemy? Really? Who'd have thought! And here I was assuming it was to march around looking pretty. I'm well familiar with the relevant history, tactics, equipment, metallurgy, physics, and biomechanics of the subject. Historically women often didn't fight in war, but it had little or nothing to do with 'maximum efficiency' it was because if men die, it doesn't matter; if we die, the tribe dies. Historically speaking men had positions of power because primates get violent when they don't get their way, and in that situation, the bigger bone structure and muscles make it easier to beat people into submission. If the leaders for that battle want to improve things, first don't be an idiot with the cavalry, then get people inside the damned castle, then use dragonglass inlays, then shields, then armor, then winged spears rather than swords, and THEN we can talk about the gender of the troops. Dragonglass doesn't require anything but a light stab. So actually, it would make more sense for there to be a shield wall with the men holding the shields (strength and mass) while the women do all the actual killing from under and over the shields.

@@hainekohanefuwa5308 I don't disagree with your points, however if speaking with the 'big picture' the comment was more than likely taking a jab at how they didn't use what you were talking about (Dragonglass, shields, basic wall defense, Calvary, ect.) and were instead using basic weapons. Since they were using the much less effective basic weaponry, the strength difference between man and woman would be more significant. I am not, in fact, trying to start a war here in the comment section, instead I'm just adding my stick into the fire of how bad this battle is, and it appears as though you are as well.

I mean ours are also full of gunpowder. If they are loaded. Lol

@@derekmensch3601 On fire, full of exploding powder. No problem! Eeeek!

@@enezjaniw493 sounds like a party to me

but they could have seen everything! (bran)

To be fair, she did better than most others so maybe it was based on merit?

@@khosrowzare8301 yeah, right, killing that giant was also pure merit right? It wasn't hack writing that made the giant grab the girl *and take her coose to his eye.* Yeah, the little girl is witty and says inspiring shit. Don't take her to a fucking frontline battlefield. At most put her in the back. Waaaaaayyyyy back. Have you seen the documental on hoe they did this episode? All of their decision were solely based, to summarize, on *"what will look cool in a battle."* And somehow they managed to be dumber than Zack Sntder!

Pure fanservice definitely, they saw how popular she'd become and wanted her to go out like a badass. I'd have preferred to see her get curb-stomped for her arrogance, then have her men, those Bear Island men that fight with "The strength of 10 mainlanders"? Go berserk and kill the giant instead. Would be more believable and more like the earlier GoT seasons where characters stupid decisions got them killed regardless of how popular they were.

@@denkerbosu3551 Hey, at least she didn't have a dragon that she failed to use and she wasn't the one to put artillery IN FRONT of the troops. That alone makes her more qualified that 99% of the commanders. If you are going to pick everything apart like that, you will never enjoy anything. Maybe it was bad writing or maybe the undead giant was just dumb?

I laughed out loud when the giant smashes her like a bug, (i was naive, and i thought they got the balls for such a scene. like in the good old days) but my laughter imediatly turned int crige when she stood up, and charged screaming to the giant .... i knew imediatly she would fckin kill it, and i couldnt bare it!

Well, then the dragon would simply be unable to fly. If he has the dragonborn dlc he should have used Bend Will to get the undead dragon to fight for them.^^

Yeah but neither Jon nor Daenerys are Dragonborn,or Dragonslaying badasses with the power to rival the sun.

Agreed. Also, dismissing female soldiers offhand as "biology" is both sexist and impractical. Yes, women are on average weaker than men, but you just try to find what women are strong enough, just like how you test all the men.

@@seanlehning1542 They would be much more effective on the wall where they can throw down debris instead of down in front of the wall. Or even helping with the catapults behind the castle.

@@YormanGina good point. While female infantry are relatively uncommon, women in combat have often served very admirably in combat support positions like air defense.

@@YormanGina of course, frontline duty, i think, shuld still be on an individual basis. All who can wield weapons and wear armor get them, and everyone who cant is placed on the walls to push rocks over. While on average women are weaker than men, you need everyone you can and if a handful of women can be found who can wear a full suit of armor, then do it. It is the apocalypse, after all. Come to think of it, why does this battle have noncombatants at all? When you're facing down a primordial evil and everyone in the castlr will die anyway if you lose, why not press EVERYONE into service (whether frontline or support) regardless of qualification?

It was foreshadowing of the quality of the finale.

You are talking about Dothraki in their natural environment raping and pillaging and charging like it is of 2nd nature. Here's the problem with your equation: 1) The undead are not men, the reason they kept charging the unsullied in Qohor was because they thought they would break and route. Undead do not break and route. 2) They are in a completely different environment. See that snow? 3) Clearly they were given the order to charge or the whole "light their swords on fire" shit wouldn't have happened. So the idea that this was some rogue charge seems far fetched. Especially since Jorah is with them. It was just shit writing to get rid of the Dothraki because they didn't want to deal with the horses.

@@Tyrantofthewind Jorah only started to move after the dothrakis had already some momentum. It would have been more obvious if he had given the order, speaking loudly, making a wide move with his sword, starting to move first. Instead, a couple one started charging without order then the rest followed.

@@Duke_of_Lorraine Jorah is not in charge of the Dothraki. In fact, the only order he gives one during the entire series is the Bloodrider he tells not to enter the tent before he kills him. Jorah's presence isn't important because it signals he ordered the charge, his presence is significant because he is one of Dany's best warriors. His presence anywhere was obviously planned ahead of time (though given the insane amount of outright stupid decisions made in this battle, who knows). I get what you are saying about how the Dothraki charging could potentially be in character, but in this particular situation, and with what is shown, it makes no sense on any level whatsoever. Which is precisely what many had problems with (besides the overall direction of the series) - the inability of the writers to even salvage their own decisions with simple changes like showing the Dothraki restless and breaking into a charge.

@@Tyrantofthewind yeah i agreed a better writer would had them arguing with the leadership about being kept behind the walls. they decided fk and gallop somewhere else instead of helping danny only to show up to gallently charge into the night walkers and died gloriiously. It still would be stupid but at least it wouldn't had been plan. It be more of a culture thing. You can also kept a few with dany showing not all left so later when they do appear in the show it wouldn't be a . I thought they were all dead and more, no the stupid one with inflated egos are the one that die.

Momonga is a semi-competent leader, many of the actions that happen in the series for Overlord are a result of the Floor Guardians of Nazerick extrapolating what they believe to be his motives and expanding on them based on the presumption that he intends domination

@@bengrogan9710 And damnit he is a very good tactician. When Ainz breaks out his strongest magic it can cause cataclysmic effects

I would. I outrank her.

@@kingemperorpenguin1 well, only if you are Sansa Stark; said girl was also the head of her house (mostly because of Jorah's stupidity in deciding "hey I'd better accept my father's judgement of how shitty I was about 20 years ago instead of taking my house back because I clearly have more experience than this 12 years old"); a big problem with a nobility system is just this: power can, and will, fall on the hands of the incompetent or, as in this case, unprepared. This was more apparent in Robb's war campaign in the books, where he made some *quite* bad choices (marrying Jeyne, executing Karstark, giving control of Harrenral to Roose Bolton...), but the people who, in any other more sensible system, would have slapped him in the face and yelled "STOP ACTING LIKE A CHILD YOU IDIOT" to that 15yo could do nothing because... Well, he was king. It's *horrible* writing for Lyanna, don't get me wrong; even though the women of Bear Island are written, even in the books, to be some tall strong AF viking shieldmaiden-like people, from her introduction in the series Lyanna has been shown as someone who actually gives a fuck about governing her people, keeping them safe and only making alliances that would benefit them; it makes no goddamn sense that a character who was prepared to abandon their sworn liege to die in a hopeless battle against a known house of traitors and murderers and only changed her mind after a lot of emotional appealing to suddenly go all "hurr durr honor is all that matters I shall die in the battlefield with a sword in my hands huuuuur". If the writers had kept *any* notes on how they wrote her in the past seasons, her reaction would have been "well I really wish I could fight like my mother would, but mother was a full grownass woman and already had a heir, me, so I won't risk my house's future for fuckall and just stay out of it". Hell, having her in the CRYPTS would have been great, even as fucking stupid as that whole plan was, at least we know Lyanna has been practicing swordfighting for the past few years, so the few super old, super weak wights that came out of the crypts could have been killed by her, both giving her the fight she wanted and, idk, having her not be the dumbest fuck North of Kingslanding ¬¬

but they used it in the show

4 years ago, i would have sad to you, you miss a lot ...... but you dont!

Invicta and Shadiversity did do good videos.

Later on we learned that half the army survived, aka half the army achieved to retreated inside the castle, so their was at least room for half the army, and since a good number of zombies entered the wall as well, we can safely assume the whole army can enter winterfell. dothraki are ligth cavalry, it should not even be in their culture to charge like that, they are not even the good type of troop for the job, charging upfront is the role of heavy cavalry, not light cavalry.

I would be ok with the dotraki Charge if they would constantly fire theyre Artilliry, you have much friendly fire but f.. it, if they are to stupid for anything else than frontal Charges, they are worthless anyway