A Resurgence of Antiliberalism (with Robert Kagan) | Shield of the Republic Podcast 

Well done to you both for having this discussion. Thank you for hosting Mr. Kagan.

“It’s from principally White, Christian Nationalism that we have the threat of Fascism in this country.” Alan Watts- 1970

The complete Birchification of the GOP is like nothing I have seen in this country in my lifetime. The GOP is dead, I don't believe there's any going back. I was never a Democrat, but there's currently no conceivable alternative, as I see it.

Bob Kagan did an excellent job going back in history to show us the struggles are still being fought.

Liberalism has aligned with different Political Parties throughout history. We cannot progress as a society without Liberal ideas. At present the Democratic Party aligns with a Liberal Democracy. Vote 🇺🇸 💙

I'm getting increasingly anxious listening to the news and podcasts that seem to be announcing inevitable doom for our Democratic Republic. We must keep fighting for our freedoms.

When my dad was growing up in rural Pennsylvania in the 1920s, there were cross burnings in front of the homes of Catholics in the vicinity. My dad almost had a nervous breakdown when JFK was elected. My mom had to call our pastor to talk some sense into him. That was only a year before I was born. Not ancient history.

To me the Dominionism sounds like a Christian version of Sharia law.

It's such a breath of fresh air to listen to sane voices in politics. I sometimes get anxiety thinking that almost everyone is going crazy with delusion.

Thank you. I highly enjoyed listening to your conversation even though the conclusions about the state of the american democracy are deeply unsettling.

Excellent guest, and excellent interviewer.

Bob Kagan is spot-on!

Which is why liberal Catholics separate our faith from our politics.

Very fascinating conversation. I took a lot of history courses in college, but this discussion goes into detail that I had not heard before. So many books being written by so many people. But Kagan's book is one I will be reading! 👍

The surprise of my life - I was born during the Truman administration - is that we would come to a time when our Supreme Court would seriously consider ceding absolute authority coupled with zero accountability to one man, thus repudiating our Constitution. Wow. What has happened to America? I’m relieved to find others who feel that way too.

I enjoyed listening to Bob Kagan so much I purchased Rebellion halfway through the podcast. Thank you.

I can't express my appreciation for this discussion. As I understand history, I only read but am no historian, aligns with Mr. Kagan. I hope more people listen to this podcast and I plan to read his book. Thank you again.

It should also be underlined that not only has their been centuries of tension and bloodshed between Catholics and Protestants, but also between the innumerable other sects. As Jefferson, Franklin and other Founders realized, the only to freedom of religion is with secular state.

Thank you, Mr. Edelman & Mr. Kagan. 🕊

I am half way through chapter 2 of Kagan's book. Well written, well sourced, very important. When asked by my Trump supporting friend "what am I defending" when voting against Trump, I say democracy, but need to say the principles the nation was founded on.

Thank you for this great conversation. Very impressed with Robert Sagan and look forward to reading his new book.

Very interesting conversation! Thank you!

Outstanding discussion! Thank you.

Excellent conversation.

Thank you for this program

This is one book i will be buying

Thank You so much for this vital conversation! I’m looking forward to reading Kagan’s book. The many topics covered here are the most salient I’ve heard about the threat to democracy. Please have him on more often! He is a treasure!

Really enjoyed this discussion and nice to hear some theories on why the right always believes the left is the threat to democracy

Thanks Eric and Bob.

It’s true that the Bible and Jesus endorsed, rather, enforce, hierarchies. It’s fantastic to hear this truth in the form of spoken words. Thank you Mr. Kagan!

This talk is fascinating and very over my head. Do it again for people like me. ❤❤❤

When did a nation forget? E pluribus unum. It is such a profoundly beautiful motto!

Thanks for an educational and illuminating discussion. I learned so much and am better armed with facts to discuss the looming threat to our democracy. Much appreciated.❤

Amazing episode. Thank you for light in a time of encroaching darkness.

Never underestimate the power of stupid.

I wish our history classes taught this. We wouldn't be in this mess if they did. Thank you Bob and Eric!

Pro-Israel/anti-Hamas Democrat here: 🇺🇸 🇮🇱 🇵🇸 The Israelis should have gotten rid of Bibi when they had the chance. Now, I feel they’re stuck with him.

Thank you guys for this much needed discussion.I'm dismayed that this is reaching so few Americans. It can and is happening here.I agree that liberal democracy is not historically the default model and seems to go against human history. Just the terms ,Liberal and Conservative , have become meaningless and pejorative.I often wonder whether the internet is a net positive or negative regarding liberalism vs. illiberalism (or just a neutral tool). I adamantly believe the historical( along with economic, political, and geographical) illiteracy in the US is the biggest threat to democracy.

Of course, Buckley would have supported Trump.

There are very good reasons why the Holy Roman Empire and the Byzantine Empire both were overthrown. Religious empires always fail.

This is brilliant. I would like to ask if conservatives can sell the neoliberal economics of Friedman, Hayek, and James Buchanan without having to rely on race, religion, ethnicity, or gender discrimination? Is that kind of neoliberalism part and parcel co-related, i.e., for Mr. Buckley to sell his conservative economic view did he need anti-liberalism or are his views and anti-liberalism one in the same thing? One can see Bill Buckley's views with Reagan, Rove, Pat Buchanan, Rush Limbaugh, Coulter, etc., all the way up to Trump.

Bob Kagan has lots of very thick books there. Must be a smart guy.

"Antisemitism... is a hearty perennial." That's just golden.

American Revolution enshrining preexisting universal natural rights, an idea so radical that it's incredibly challenging to uphold up to present day--it's VERY hard for humans to honor this idea. Most of the drama in America has resulted from how hard it is to uphold this idea, with significant numbers of Americans actively opposed to this idea regardless of the time period. Traditional hierarchies are always deeply challenged by this idea of universal natural rights. Thanks for the clarity, Mr Kagan!

Bob Kagan is spitting 🔥 🔥 🔥 😅😅😅

I wish you’d come to my 7th grade class room and had this conversation for other 11-12 year olds.

Hello from New Brunswick Canada

I've always been of the opinion, that, I only have Constitutional Rights, because you have Constitutional Rights. It's either all, or none. Why does this have to be such a thorny issue?🤘💙

Excellent discussion. Very valuable to see how today's illiberalism is rooted in history. Many of us thought we were safe from something like this, so the rise of Trump and debasement of the Republican party was a huge shock, but history shows us how we got here and hopefully also how we can get through this.

The "Declaration of Independence" condemned Britain for establishing freedom of religion for Roman Catholics in Quebec.

Great guest!

Christianity is the world we swim in.

Thank you for the differentiation between "liberalism" and "progressivism". One sees that so seldom!

The pro-Palestine movement in the U.S. is a liberal movement, not an antisemitic or antizionist movement. Some constituents of the movement may be those things, but it is specious to define an entire movement by its worst constituency. That would be like defining all Palestinians as Hamas. We are having real trouble defining 'civilians' in the Gaza Strip right now; that is a reflection of this deceptive language in our culture. This is used to justify the unjustifiable actions being taken in this conflict.

27:20 I think our founding fathers saw what was happening in Europe and the bloodshed being spilt in the name of Christianity was well in their minds when they were forming the basic tenets of the America they were attempting to form.

Bob Kagan, excellent points. Especially about how perplexing it is to hear conservatives say "we shoudn't be talking about race so much in our history." Yor response: That's laughable b/c "Race has so profoundly has shaped everything about what the United States is." How can people argue against yor point unless they r truly omitting, ignoring, erasing history?

I'd love to see Mr. Kagan debate the resident "intellectual" clowns on Fox/Newsmax/OAN who really believe THEY understand the Constitution and American history better. He'd make mincemeat out of them.

This was really good. It had the quality of one of Jonah Goldberg's podcasts but without the paywall. 😅

McCarthy had a significant influence on Roy Cohn, who was his attorney and close associate. This connection helped shape Cohn's political outlook and, by extension, that of Donald Trump. Cohn, while working with McCarthy, developed aggressive and controversial strategies, often associated with anti-liberalism and inflammatory political rhetoric

The wealth of the nation depends on each of us taking just a little less than we can and giving just a little more than we must. So long as we remain convinced that greed is good, we will have the great wealth gap, the land of haves and have-nots that illiberalism inevitably forces upon us. We must say no. We must vote for our own freedom lest unbridled greed snatches it from us.

good show

I would like to push back on the idea of liberalism as being the "unnatural" state of being. Toddlers want to do things themselves. We (humans) have a drive towards autonomy and being allowed to make progress and to guide our own destiny. We become depressed and anxious when those drives are thwarted or denied. So, the problem, to me ... is that we aren't developing the skills needed to live democratically (and that in fact, the opposite is true). For all the handwringing about education being a place of liberal indoctrination, the fact is that the unwritten systems of schools are largely illiberal. For example, children are segregated by age, are told what to think - when to think it - and for how long; children are regimented in desks/seating arrangements, they are constantly graded and quantified. And, they are also in competition with each other - for grades, prizes, attention, and so on (as opposed to collaboration, innovation, and creativity). In other words, hierarchies are the order of the day. By contrast, I work in a Montessori school - so NONE of those exist at all. Multiaged groups of children naturally form groups for certain projects and then disband as the task is accomplished. Children become calm, self-regulated, and productive as a result. I believe that liberalism IS our default mode (and the dream and possibility that keeps us alive and motivated). It is the most natural, however, it also requires the mastery of several skills (executive functions, self regulation, communication, openness, hard work, etc.). Yet, for whatever reason, we do not help our children develop these qualities within themselves (and in fact the opposite is true). We are keeping our children in a state of arrested development.

All other to each other.

Last night I watched local news for Austin Texas. There was a panel discussion on the act by the University of Texas to suspend students who committed crimes and/or violated university student code of behavior. I was greatly surprised when the 3 pundits all agreed the action by UT was warranted and that Americans are sick of people breaking laws and getting off with a slap on the wrist. This was in AUSTIN TEXAS, the Berkley of the South West. This was like the sun rising in the West.

That opening is perfect!😆

Shield of the Republic is the most interesting

Kagan is absolutely correct to point out that when neoliberal conservatives are tired of playing their rôle in the sempiternal squabbling with progressive liberals, they are likely to seek refreshment in entertaining the most illiberal basic ideas of how to solve the "more perfect union ... blessings of liberty" problem. The pull on the conservative mind of illiberal ideas is, in my view, much stronger than the pull of egalitarian ideas on the minds of liberals.

My family came to New Amsterdam and were French Huguenots who fled St. Bartholomews Masacre. This is the roots of Anti-Catholicism in this country

I agree with Kagan's question of why would Catholics today support the idea of a "Christian" nation -- which Christianity, from the point of view of someone in the LDS faith.

Buckley would have been an anti anti trumper

Very articulate

I just graduated from college in 2017 and did not experience hostility toward the founders at our local community college.

Okay…I admit that my education consisted of a weird 12 years of 1960s Catholic parochial school followed by 4 years of art and architecture school in the 70s. That said, I really can’t remember the terms and values of “classic liberalism” or “liberalism as followed by the Founding Fathers” EVER being explicitly taught to me in that period. I was perhaps undereducated. Much Enlightenment “liberalism” was anti-Catholic which may explain why it was not emphasized in school. I think average Americans just haven’t been taught this stuff because it really doesn’t suit the objectives of employers who need compliant people who don’t object too much.

I never understood why the Adams presidents (John and John Quincy) never get more credit for not only being the only founding fathers/early POTUS' that didn't own slaves, but were staunchly anti-slavery (JQA was a constant thorn in the Speaker's side about abolitionism when he came to Congress after he left the White House).

Beethoven's Fifth. Very good!

Man... it just gets worse and worse.

I think that part of the reason for the venture into Canada in 1812 was to drive the French and Catholic out of North America.

They aren’t ‘conservative’, they are right wing…

Ban bribery. Enforce the laws. Move to Amend. People shall be represented.

what is that cool-ass turntable down there???

Bob nails Buckley correctly

I'm always confused as to why the terms "liberalism" and "antiliberalism" are never clearly defined, despite the historic realities! The original meaning of "liberal" was about separating the organization of society from religious subservience. It was a progressing stage of separation from feudalism. The wars that were fought to escape the rule of Rome and its surrogates, as represented by the Holy Roman Empire/the Pope.

Having a current "in" re: UChicago gossip, it's not the left-leaners of academia who are teaching the anti-liberalism. The leftists are pointedly acknowledging Citizen's United, that wealth is now considered speech, and the reality that some people have and get more of it than others. Those allocations of power are what's at issue, to reference a word from the Black community: defund. That could be construed as silencing, except that which way the balance tips depends on the tilt of your head as you approach the issue. If ad dollars run the world, no speech is free.

Yes, which Christianity? We Jesuits despise opus dei. We can't even agree within the multi sects of our own church and 2 billion Catholics around the world.

Terrifying

Did the Batman signal get sent out?

I’m so depressed!

"Common good Conservatism" is one of the biggest oxymorons in politics.

Nearly half of EU countries have voted in right wing governments.

48:03--48:42 49:10--50:17

In the American South during slavery, how much was the wealth of plantation owners (slave owners actually) tied up in owning slaves? Could they use this “value” to then get loans and such to expand and run business ventures?

What will become of the Pax Americana?

The American Revolution didn't think rights "were granted by God"? " . . endowed by the Creator..."

E.Colby could be national security advisor for Trump.

‘Catholics’ - especially in the southern USA - are not considered ‘Christian.’

The complete overturning and rewriting of history is frightening, especially as it pertains to World War II and the Nazis. How quickly people forget, I would love to be a fly on the wall when those who think authoritarianism is a good idea become victims of it too.

Have either of these scholars spoken to modern American Catholics? They wouldn't know the difference between Catholicism and Protestantism. They do not know the teachings of the RCC. Their Catholicism has more to do with their politics than teachings of the RCC.

In amerca interests always trump principles

One of those guys doesn't understand the Left's capitulation to illiberalism. Agree the Right is more prone to illiberalism. There is also the elephant in the room he's missing regarding Islam and its effect in the surge in right-wing ideology on places like Hungary. He says the students are just protesting and doesn't seem to be concerned by what it means for the future when we had places like BLM Chicago posting paratrooper pics after October 7th . Let's not minimize.

This really is an amazing video. He nails exactly what Trump and the rest are puts them in context, beautifully. Nice job. Add his to my ever growing list of books. Fydor D. will have to wait … someday.