Тёмный

Abortion and Personhood: What the Moral Dilemma Is Really About | Glenn Cohen | Big Think 

Big Think
Подписаться 7 млн
Просмотров 969 тыс.
50% 1

Abortion and Personhood: What the Moral Dilemma Is Really About
Watch the newest video from Big Think: bigth.ink/NewVideo
Join Big Think Edge for exclusive videos: bigth.ink/Edge
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The landmark Roe v. Wade decision, handed down by the United States Supreme Court in 1973, touched off a divide deep within the American culture that shows little signs of healing. The reason is not necessarily that people have intransigent views when it comes to abortion. Instead, the issue is genuinely hard to grapple with, even from a moral standpoint, as Harvard Law Professor and bioethicist Glenn Cohen explains.
The first question we face when deciding whether abortion is immoral is this: are fetuses persons? That may seem like a straightforward question, but determining personhood requires understanding the distinction between a person, a human being, and being alive.
Certainly not all things that are alive are persons. A dog, for example, is very much alive and very lovable indeed, but not a person. As simple as this distinction seems, it has its detractors. The philosopher Peter Singer, for example, says that distinguishing between what is human life and inhuman life is an example of speciation - an act of discrimination that is ultimately logically untenable (and we should therefore abandon it).
According to Cohen, some scholars say that stem cells and embryos are human beings, but not persons. They are made of human being stuff but they do not have the moral and legal rights - namely, the right of inviolability - that we accord to individual persons.
Those who believe the granting of rights is more a political act than a natural one may look toward what Cohen calls a "capacity 'x'," i.e. some other quality that more accurately defines what a person truly is. Examples of such a capacity 'x' include experiencing a continuity of identity, or possessing self-knowledge. While these qualities form more naturally than the granting of political rights, they open the door to difficult-to-justify actions like infanticide (since the infant brain is insufficiently developed to have the concept of an identity, or to articulate self-knowledge).
If one decides to stick with a definition of "person" that is determined by the existence of moral and legal rights, thinkers such as Judith Jarvis Thomson point out that the rights of a mother countervail - she is a person, too, after all. Thomson's famous thought experiment, "the famous violinist" has become perhaps the most recognizable philosophical defense of abortion.
Glenn Cohen's book is Patients with Passports: Medical Tourism, Law, and Ethics.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GLENN COHEN:
PROFESSOR, HARVARD LAW SCHOOL
Prof. Glenn Cohen is one of the world's leading experts on the intersection of bioethics (sometimes also called "medical ethics") and the law, as well as health law. He also teaches civil procedure. From Seoul to Krakow to Vancouver, Professor Cohen has spoken at legal, medical, and industry conferences around the world and his work has appeared in or been covered on PBS, NPR, ABC, CNN, MSNBC, Mother Jones, the New York Times, the New Republic, the Boston Globe, and several other media venues.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TRANSCRIPT:
Glenn Cohen: In the 1970s we have the Roe v. Wade decision in the United States. It was a decision relating to a woman's right to have an abortion. It introduced the trimester framework. It basically allowed first trimester abortions, made it very difficult to have third trimester abortions. And essentially this was really met very quickly thereafter with the sort of backlash. And really the last 40/50 years of American history have more or less been a backlash against Roe v. Wade and an attempt to kind of criminalize abortion in all sorts of interesting ways without overturning the decision.
So that's kind of the legal playing field. I mean we can talk about some of the specifics, but the more interesting question I think is thinking about the morality of abortion. And I'll say that I think abortion is an extremely difficult question. So one of the first questions people have to think about is are fetuses persons? And that's a very important linguistic question, persons. I didn't say human beings. I didn't say alive. Those are three different issues. Something can be alive but not be a person. Your dog is a good example. You love your dog. It's a wonderful thing but it's not a person. Something can be human and potentially not be a person...
Read the full transcript at bigthink.com/videos/glenn-coh...

Опубликовано:

 

9 июн 2024

Поделиться:

Ссылка:

Скачать:

Готовим ссылку...

Добавить в:

Мой плейлист
Посмотреть позже
Комментарии : 13 тыс.   
@bigthink
@bigthink 4 года назад
Want to get Smarter, Faster? Subscribe for DAILY videos: bigth.ink/GetSmarter
@PauI123
@PauI123 3 года назад
ok
@isaac1572
@isaac1572 Год назад
Well explained up to a point. When a legal decision is made it's up to judges or a juries interpretation of the circumstances and the law. When a law is made it is usually voted on by members of government but occasionally by public referendum. Laws try to reflect the morality or ethics of the population. The public view on morals and ethics changes at different times in different places. Where I live [Australia] homosexuality used to be illegal. Now it is legal. Same sex marriage is also now legal. In war or in legal executions it is legally and therefor morally ok to kill conscious human life [a person]. I believe a mother has the right to choose abortion in the first trimester of pregnancy. I feel sad for the aborted baby [foetus. Also a person] but life is plentiful and it is not possible for every potential life to live into old age.
@matthewpolishing7294
@matthewpolishing7294 Год назад
Big think shove it up your ass your just made a liberal video to justify abortions your still killing something god will judge you and you will aborted to hell
@justicewokeisutterbs8641
@justicewokeisutterbs8641 Год назад
I see, no discussion of adults prioritizing getting their rocks off over the lives they know might result from that activity. No discussion of those adults denying and evading any responsibility for having brought those lives into existence and then snuffing them out. No discussion of any ethical obligation to protect and nurture one's own offspring. It's all about deciding the worth of the most vulnerable of our own species with no one present to advocate for them. Ultimately it is a choice between self-indulgence and responsibility on the part of those with the power to act, while the other mortally interested parties have no say at all in the matter. The answer is simple: deny personhood to the ones with no voice, wipe them out and go back to screwing without a care or a thought. It feels good, and that's the most important thing, isn't it.
@matthewpolishing7294
@matthewpolishing7294 Год назад
@@justicewokeisutterbs8641 regardless god will decide their fate for.killing their children
@victoriaianthine286
@victoriaianthine286 7 лет назад
Scroll back up while you still can
@nonviablevenus9206
@nonviablevenus9206 5 лет назад
Seriously thank you. I am going to start randomly posting this across the net. Comment sections these days are just a headache and not a place to engage in any kind of open civil discussion. Also simply browsing through public forum can be upsetting and I find detrimental to my mental health.
@doggoslayer5679
@doggoslayer5679 5 лет назад
I’m going in comrade
@cosmickoala6663
@cosmickoala6663 5 лет назад
Thanks bro
@raetheri3999
@raetheri3999 5 лет назад
Thx for the warning yo
@JustAGuyProduction
@JustAGuyProduction 5 лет назад
No, abort the comments.
@Robfenix
@Robfenix Год назад
This is how I try to train my students: I don’t tell them what to think, but I test their level of depth in terms of whether they can honestly and accurately give increasingly complex counter-arguments on each side.
@soonahero
@soonahero Год назад
Is that what you would’ve done if you were a teacher at and during Nazi Germany?
@Robfenix
@Robfenix Год назад
@@soonahero Made sure controversial ideas were still taught instead of towing the state line, yes. Developing critical thinking skills and morality independent from authority, yes.
@soonahero
@soonahero Год назад
@@Robfenix reminds me of teach abroad in North Korea. Once you get in the classroom and see how much damage “morality independent of authority” can do to them, you kind of stop. You’ll get your kids killed.
@skillen8or
@skillen8or Год назад
@@soonahero are you implying that it would be best for children not to learn what the nazis believed and how they came about? If so, I would argue that having an understanding of the nazis could contribute to a resilience against those same pervasive ideologies in our own society.
@soonahero
@soonahero Год назад
@@skillen8or I’m implying the kids in Nazi germany should have been taught against Nazi ideology in the “what to think” context as opposed to the “how to think” mentioned
@MichaelRicksAherne
@MichaelRicksAherne Год назад
I could listen to this guy talk about this for hours. Really good way of breaking down the different approaches to the moral and legal questions, without any of the sloganeering.
@Kelnx
@Kelnx Год назад
He basically uses several thousand words to say nothing in the end. I think it's inherently understood by most people that the question of Abortion is complicated and heavily dependent on context. We don't need someone "on the other hand" -ing us to death about it.
@MisterIncog
@MisterIncog Год назад
@@Kelnx nah, judging by the comments it’s obvious not a lot of people grasp the complexity of the question
@EleneDOM
@EleneDOM Год назад
@@Kelnx I agree that most people do understand that this is a complex issue, and tend to have nuanced views. However, most public discourse about abortion is very black and white, and I think it's useful to have any kind of presentation that gets away from that.
@johnbockmann
@johnbockmann Год назад
​@@MisterIncog The question is simple. He's mystified it--there is no such thing as a human non-person--to justify atrocity on that arbitrary category of human being, a technique we've tried with poor results in the 20th Century.
@MisterIncog
@MisterIncog Год назад
@@johnbockmann and here’s another proof.
@rebeccac.l.5601
@rebeccac.l.5601 Год назад
This is a such a mature way to approach arguments, especially such a complex and delicate issue. Politicians, take note
@Haylla2008
@Haylla2008 Год назад
They already know. They do that shit intentionally.
@BLav01
@BLav01 Год назад
it’s not
@laughingvampire7555
@laughingvampire7555 Год назад
his arguments of capacity & ability are what eugenicists used to justify their policies. So basically IT IS EUGENICS
@rebeccac.l.5601
@rebeccac.l.5601 Год назад
@@laughingvampire7555 he's addressing different approaches to the argument and common views rather than just shouting one stance and insulting people who disagree. This method acknowledges that there are many reasons people see it the way they do, one of them being the argument you mentioned.
@longbow857
@longbow857 Год назад
@@rebeccac.l.5601 What makes you think that a well spoken person would do well in politics? Don't you think we would have already seen a positive outcome by now? The average person behaves like it's group and loves drama to all shout at. Intelligent persons cannot lead because they are aware of their flaws in doing the best things for everyone when others are trying to take you down. Our monkey brain wants a charismatic person to stand for something, even though you have to be a maniac to have that much belief in something without considering other possibilities. Through human history it has been extremely rare to have adapt leaders and the more global things get the more one leader can fuck it up for the most amount of people and the more insane you have to be to take up that role. This has to go wrong at some point.
@jimgrant4578
@jimgrant4578 Год назад
A fact about abortion that too often gets ignored is that there is a very simple, proven way to prevent the need for most abortions--- prevent unplanned pregnancies through education and access to contraception. And yet, the people who hate the idea of a woman having an abortion, also seem to actively work against the steps that could have prevented the pregnancy in the first place (except for abstinence). Making abortion illegal is not going to stop women from having abortions.
@kualabear
@kualabear Год назад
I would say it was a small minority who are against both abortion and contraception. A small amount of people from a small amount of religious groups. Even Roman Catholics in Ireland are permitted contraception now aren’t they?
@dancingdyonysis
@dancingdyonysis Год назад
@@kualabear Not a small enough minority if enough people are still electing politicians who are actively pushing legislature to prevent access to contraception and sexual education
@sallyjrwjrw6766
@sallyjrwjrw6766 Год назад
Half of abortion patients were using birth control in the month they got pregnant. Birth control does not eliminate abortions.
@Dispo030
@Dispo030 Год назад
Yeah but the pro life crowd hates that as well. preventing unwanted pregnancies is the name of the game.
@tedmcfly
@tedmcfly Год назад
Good way to separate the real planners from the nympho criminals.
@josephercanbrack8393
@josephercanbrack8393 5 лет назад
At least we can all agree that Legal and Ethical are two different things.
@hwstar9416
@hwstar9416 5 лет назад
no not really.
@hwstar9416
@hwstar9416 5 лет назад
Laws are based on moral ideas, someone kills he gets punished, or how slavery is illegal.
@looofa6528
@looofa6528 5 лет назад
@@hwstar9416 But laws take time to be passed, they need to be voted for and be implemented. You're arguing that before the law that criminalizes slavery was passed, it was ethical
@gundamcollector77
@gundamcollector77 5 лет назад
​@@NihilSineDeo09 That was also the 19th century and no one alive then is alive now so those ideals are not around any more so there is no one to pursicurte for the crimes that happen'd then so stop thinking in the past and what was done start thinking in the future for what can be done.
@youptascuntretard7021
@youptascuntretard7021 5 лет назад
Man of Hokuto I think it applies to abortion because it’s wrong but it should be legal. Your preventing. A baby if you don’t have sex your preventing a baby when you get a abortion
@freakilyweird
@freakilyweird Год назад
Thank you so much for the balanced and nuanced overview here. I think much of the difficulty discussing abortion comes from the fact that "when does personhood begin", and "how much bodily autonomy do people have a right to" are two different, separate ethical issues...that can't be easily separated re abortion. The examples of both the famous violinist and frozen embryos were very helpful, illustrating "personhood" vs "bodily autonomy" a bit more on their own and independent of the other.
@amyjoyce2301
@amyjoyce2301 Год назад
Personally I appreciate what you said. Ty! However I don't think that's actually the difficulty of discussion. In recent years I've found that there's almost always a huge challenge to get someone to calmly have a discussion at all, let alone be respectful about it. Once my position becomes known or is assume, and sometimes incorrectly (or I witness another's revealed), a volcanic eruption seems to take place. For instance, pertinent exchanges regarding what you mentioned about personhood and body autonomy, or a legal right to life etc., doesn't even occur. It's nice to see it happening in the comment section of this video though. Cheers!
@TheAmateurPodcast
@TheAmateurPodcast Год назад
Can you really compare the womb, who's sole purpose is to be connected to someone else, specifically a mother's child, to keep them alive, where the egg chooses the sperm that infertilizes her, effectively choosing to connect to someone else to be alive?? To a donating a kidney, meant to serve solely the person it was made for, temporarily to some stranger?? That argument begins to break down real quickly, I would argue the child has more right to the use of the womb than the mother once she's been conceived.
@amyjoyce2301
@amyjoyce2301 Год назад
@@TheAmateurPodcast I know you were replying to the OP but I wanted to jump in to say that I didn't even understand the kidney comparison until you commented and explained why it doesn't hold water. In fact upon followed your lead, it doesn't come close to being a compatible comparison. 1) The bodily autonomy of the kidney "donor" was violated in order to have a connection to the violinist. 2) More importantly there is no bond between those two and it wasn't the result of the required act of intimacy where there's prior knowledge that natural law might take place in the body of a person specifically designed to facilitate the connection and all complexities of child bearing - a process regarded as miraculous, even by non religious parents at times. The callous approach of most pro-choice women I've encountered in the last few years has concerned me. It was noticably different 10 years ago and 30 years ago practically all abortion discusses respected the moral components. Now there is a willful lack of awareness over what occurs (death), so much that a popular defensive argument is that "pro-lifer's don't really really care about the baby". That signifies how warped their moral compasses have become. As if a non-involved persons alleged dishonesty regarding compassion for the baby makes the mother's lack of compassion more acceptable. Are these Marxist tactics and do they work stronger to brainwash people "trained" to use them them?
@VolrinSeth
@VolrinSeth Год назад
They are seperate discussions, however no nation currently violates a person's bodily autonomy in order to save another, regardless of whether that 'other' is considered a person or not. For example: parents cannot be forced to donate organs to their children, nor can traffic offenders to their victims.
@briannewman9285
@briannewman9285 Год назад
@@amyjoyce2301 The appropriate comparison is more akin to Bob who agrees to be hooked up to Adam to provide life support so that Adam can have much needed surgery. Bob also knows 1.) that, once the operation begins, if Adam is separated from Bob before the operation is completed, Adam will die and 2.) the operation will take nine months. Bob gives his consent of his own free will to be hooked up to Adam. Then, mid-procedure, Bob revokes his consent. The question is, under what terms should Bob be able to revoke his consent?
@SuperDarwinFAN
@SuperDarwinFAN Год назад
So... people would rather argue whether or not a fetus is a person than protect what we know as people already?
@myahjoi8742
@myahjoi8742 Год назад
can't both be true though: we should improve society and abortion be wrong/illegal?
@CF-ei5oz
@CF-ei5oz Год назад
Third trimester or "partial birth" abortion is only done to save the mother's life or because the fetus is not going to survive because of terrible, irremediable physical defects. It's a horrible loss for the mother and other parent; they grieve it as a death. I've talked to women who went through it. It's a severe trauma. It's egregious that it's presented in some media as a frivolous "choice" that a woman makes when she suddenly decides, in the 8th or 9th month, "I don't feel like it".
@geko411
@geko411 Год назад
No one decides to abort in the 8th or 9th month. U must be smoking some good weed because at that point the baby is fully developed. This theory about mothers aborting there baby's at that late stage is nothing more than non sense. You guys pull that card just for people could be shocked and angry when In reality Abortions are usually recommended between 24 weeks(6 months) At 24 weeks the Fetus is just the size of a full Ear of corn. After that, Doctors know not to abort because it's Not safe for the mother. Stop it with that 8 to 9 month Crap because you not fooling no one. You have every right to feel how you feel but stop spewing lies.
@MsHburnett
@MsHburnett Год назад
Third trimester is optional for women who want to kill their babies indifferent to health issues
@Lovesapuzzle
@Lovesapuzzle Год назад
Well said. The anti-choice campaign is ignoring this truth. They are also ignoring the fact that, even if elective abortions are banned, these life saving abortions will still be performed. Nothing that they are railing against will change other than making a heartbreaking situation more painfull for the people involved.
@saltyolbroad2962
@saltyolbroad2962 Год назад
Not in NJ. You can be in labor and demand an abortion!
@radmomthoughts3507
@radmomthoughts3507 Год назад
Not sure what it's like in your state, but in Oregon, you can get an abortion up until birth for any reason whatsoever. To say that it's only done to save the mother's life is misleading, even if it may have been the case of the mother that you knew. In fact, I have heard an ob/gyn make the case that the procedure that a doctor does in order to save a mother's life should not be called an abortion because the purpose in those procedures (ex. removing an ectopic pregnancy) is to save the mother's life, and the purpose of an abortion is to end up with a dead baby. Partial birth abortion is a horrible and tragic loss, and one that can and should be avoided. I've been pregnant multiple times, and each time I'm in the 6th or 7th month and feeling the hiccups and kicks of the baby inside me, I'm saddened and disgusted that third trimester abortion is legal and performed in America. It's so obviously a person who is alive and who wants to live.
@nathanwall37
@nathanwall37 5 лет назад
I appreciate his attempt to explore both sides faithfully. That’s uncommon with this topic.
@jovante9990
@jovante9990 5 лет назад
@Oliver Berner r/notrelevanttothecommentabove
@jovante9990
@jovante9990 5 лет назад
@Oliver Berner more you write the more money I make
@jovante9990
@jovante9990 5 лет назад
@Oliver Berner also still not relevant
@jovante9990
@jovante9990 5 лет назад
@Oliver Berner do you have a point? Otherwise this literally is gibberish
@sxpreme-2960
@sxpreme-2960 5 лет назад
To be a person you need to be able to make choices & have self fulfilled actions. Period. That's that on that. Once the embyo has movement that us self chosen it is a human being.
@hirondelline
@hirondelline Год назад
You also forgot to talk about the right to use our own organs the way we want. Even after our death, *no one* has to give up their organs to save the life of anybody. You have to get consent even for that. Even if the "person" is dead (so it's no more a person), even if taking those organs wouldn't technically harm that person, that person gets to keep control of what happens to their body, even if that means another, alive, person dies because they don't get what they need to survive. If that is considered ethical, how can't abortion not be ethical? But thanks for this video. It's refreshing to see someone taking this issue in a truly logical manner.
@wiktoriawolak1900
@wiktoriawolak1900 Год назад
There's a difference between abortion and organ donation. You're the only one who can keep that fetus alive, you're not the only one who can donate organs to a person who needs it. If you weren't raped, you're a direct cause of fetus's existence. You're not a direct cause of someone's health issues. And most importantly abortion is an active killing, you actively end a life. But while donating you don't know if your organs will be used, you don't know if someone will need them in time of your death. It's not a direct or active killing. There's also a thing of the right to live. Is your right to bodily autonomy more important than someone's right to live? Especially when you're the reason they need you?
@iSlowhands
@iSlowhands Год назад
Interestingly, where I live, the consent is flipped: you WILL give up your organs after your death unless you explicitly say you DON'T want to do so.
@shadowlibrarian400
@shadowlibrarian400 Год назад
@@wiktoriawolak1900 to even get a transplant, there must be someone compatible that dies at the right time in the right way so that the organs are even usable. There is also timing, if you’ve waited for a specific organ for a long time you might not even be healthy enough anymore because to much time has passed. I had a classmate that had to quit school and even died before she turned 22, because she was waiting for the right transplant. Not donating might not be a direct cause of death, but in many ways it’s much worse than abortion. At least the pregnant woman still needs her own body and might want to protect it, pregnancies still kills many women and often changes their body irreversible, while donators don’t need their body anymore.
@avamay4224
@avamay4224 Год назад
Wiktoria Wolak there are thousands of people on the waiting list for a variety of organs who never receive them before their death. Even if you’re not the one causing a specific person’s death, there is someone on the waiting list who is not receiving your lifesaving organs when you could have saved them.
@mitchhudson3972
@mitchhudson3972 Год назад
@@wiktoriawolak1900 and yet even if you were the only person that could give the organs they need fast enough and even if you were the cause of them needing that organ you still have the right to decline them access to your organs. To answer your last question, yes. See above.
@phiggins5207
@phiggins5207 Год назад
I really appreciated this balanced look at very complex questions. In fact, the first thing he said was that the question of abortion is very complex and difficult. I have a lot of questions that I would like to pose to him, but I am confident that I would get an intellectually well-grounded answer.
@swarleysheen9016
@swarleysheen9016 5 лет назад
It is a very tough argument but most people are so hostile about it that we can't have good conversations about it.
@jacobshirley3457
@jacobshirley3457 5 лет назад
Often times, the only way to have a civil argument is 1) you know the person, 2) you are 100% fine with not changing the other person's mind one bit, 3) you believe the other person's beliefs have some legitimate merit, and 4) by having patience and humbleness. Most people struggle with the last three points. You can have an argument of information and self-reflection. But almost every human being prefers winning. If they don't win an argument, they blame the other person for not succumbing.
@floraposteschild4184
@floraposteschild4184 5 лет назад
I think most people have some good will about it, but here's the problem with this particular issue: to put it broadly, one side wants to tell people what to do (usually within some limits), and the other side does not want to tell people what to do (usually within some limits). Can you see how this would automatically generate some hostility, especially if you were on the receiving end? Isn't "give me liberty, or give me death!" a slogan in your country?
@jacobshirley3457
@jacobshirley3457 5 лет назад
I understand why people don't like being told to do something (e.g. pro-choice). Some decisions don't have clear-cut, agreed-upon ethics, so why force it upon others? You shouldn't force others to a specific action or belief or religion. But I also understand why people tell them to do something (e.g. pro-life). Murder, as a general case, is wrong. It doesn't matter whether you believe in murder should be legal or not. It is so ethically egregious that it shouldn't be left to the individual committing the action. Pro-life people believe killing the fetus is so wrong that choice shouldn't be left to the woman. It is bigger than her. I'm in the middle, where I'm pro-life by heart, but pro-choice by brain. I think it's selfish in many cases (moreso if it was consensual and she didn't use birth control/condoms), but if the abortion is done at an early enough stage, the harm is minimized.
@floraposteschild4184
@floraposteschild4184 5 лет назад
​@@jacobshirley3457 For now, I'll accept the contention that pro-life people are idealists, seeking only to prevent what they think of as murder. I'll also put aside the obvious observation the fetus is smaller than a woman, sometimes only a few cells, and will be made up almost entirely of her body, and therefore her cooperation is desirable. But it seems to become a mental habit to interfere with the lives of women, but not men. For example, what if it was decided to prevent abortions by rigidly enforced anti-premarital sex laws? The anti-fornication laws are still on the books in Virginia, Michigan and other states, not to mention legal and enforced in some other countries. How would you take this interference with your liberty? But we would save so many innocent lives, to be reared within the ideal marital bond! You may say "that would never happen". Yes, that's my point: it would never happen. Even the sacredness of life, it seems has some limits.
@Ditzychocohermosa_pink
@Ditzychocohermosa_pink 5 лет назад
I support Abortion %100. I will Never Understand why This is Such a Debatable Issue..I just cant Fathom the Mindset Of Pro Life (Anti choice) people
@Updog89
@Updog89 Год назад
Given how complicated and subjective the issue is, and how dangerous pregnancy can be, I take serious issue with anyone who would go out of their way to ban or criminalize abortion. You’d have to be seriously lacking in empathy and intellectual humility to look at all this grey area and still feel so confident. If there can be gray area about our rights to choose self-defense, choose to donate our organs, choose to pull the plug on someone who is braindead, or choose to euthanize a pet, surely we can make peace with letting people choose whether or not to terminate a pregnancy. We don’t have to like it, but we ought to respect it. I especially take issue with the hypocrisy of those who won’t support sex education and access to birth control but would happily take away people’s right to choose abortion. They argue that they don’t want their taxes to pay for it. If they they really cared about the life of the fetus they’d pay happily. There are more important things than money. If you’re going to try to make other people’s reproductive choices your business, don’t complain when the government taxes you for it.
@jacqslabz
@jacqslabz Год назад
I agree with your points. If the video is right (that this is how lawyers are looking at this problem), then they are looking at the problem is a rather ineffective & useless way. Yes some people disagree with abortion, they find it to be morally wrong. But that gives them no grounds to try to force their choice on anyone else. Banning abortion harms women, especially in cases where the pregnancy being terminated isn't of a healthy embryo/fetus. Even if everyone agreed embryos and fetuses are persons, having personhood does not grant that person the right to use the genitalia of another person.
@erynn9968
@erynn9968 Год назад
Yep agree. If you are against abortion - then don't do abortion. You are not a fetus anymore, so this decision of others won't hurt you by any means.
@bigtimefans100
@bigtimefans100 Год назад
Pop off sarah
@Sarah-re7cg
@Sarah-re7cg Год назад
Hell yeah! Thank you, I agree. The entire framing of this “issue” is rooted in political strategy and marketing. It really kicked off with Regan and his courting of the religious right.
@TheRealVenna
@TheRealVenna Год назад
Exactly. Being pro-choice doesn't mean you HAVE to choose it. It just means you respect another person's decision to make the choice that is right for them, which is nobody's business but theirs.
@cowboydup
@cowboydup Год назад
this is the framework that every abortion debate needs to be held to. best most succinct explanation ive seen. thank you!
@entombedlamb5356
@entombedlamb5356 Год назад
The framework of the legal right-to-life is a complex issue that will need to include euthanasia with the increasingly elderly population. This should be a fundamental issue
@ft4903
@ft4903 Год назад
@@entombedlamb5356 Only person's have rights
@vixguy
@vixguy Год назад
I love this guy. He’s the only person I’ve seen in a long time that didn’t get angry/sad/irritated talking about this.
@chewy99.
@chewy99. Год назад
I’ve seen one other person
@dorianmarch5811
@dorianmarch5811 Год назад
Usually people call that psychotic
@mike8595
@mike8595 Год назад
Are you, like, totally a person if you can't even think about the future, bro? A person is like not a person if they can't like think about the future and stuff. Ya know? I'm an ethics professor.
@matheusadornidardenne8684
@matheusadornidardenne8684 Год назад
The name you give to someone whose blood doesn't boil when debating about wether dismembering babies alive is wrong is "sociopath".
@ft4903
@ft4903 Год назад
@@dorianmarch5811 Or rational
@Jleigh225
@Jleigh225 Год назад
If someone this intelligent has this much to say on both sides, maybe we shouldn’t remove the moral decision from the mother to choose to have or to not have an abortion. I was pro-life for a long time and that’s what changed my mind. It was that this is a complicated question and therefore I don’t have the right to answer it for someone else and the person in the situation should be the one who decides what is best for them.
@jasminejacob1870
@jasminejacob1870 Год назад
That's a good position to hold.
@aduriteking2155
@aduriteking2155 Год назад
But others just care because they don’t want to see more babies killed….
@MH-be6hr
@MH-be6hr Год назад
But the other side argues that one person cannot cause the death of another genetic human, unless that human presents a literal mortal threat to the other. This concept of self defense could also be used as a justification for keeping first trimester abortion legal: a woman chooses abortion when the gestation and/or 18+ years of mothering that child presents a mortal threat to that woman's physical or circumstantial life. 💔🇺🇸
@roger632
@roger632 Год назад
But when they go way too far, and allow options such as abortions around 20 weeks, or even up until birth, then that's too far. (A baby's pain receptors are fully developed and functional even a little bit before the 20 weeks mark.) It's no wonder why a majority of countries around the world have countrywide abortion bans; Spain, Poland, Ukraine, Italy, France, and Germany, they all have either 12, 14, or 16 week abortion bans countrywide, and those are only to name a few of the countries. They at least base their laws and restrictions off of science, while still keeping some sort of standard for the most fragile of humanity. It's only Russia, China, Canada, and the US that allow unrestricted access to abortion at any stage, and for any reason whatsoever. Abortion up until birth is legal in eight states here in the US, and it's not just for the reasons of saving the life of the mother, (it's legal in most states for that reason,) but those eight states, it's allowed for any and all reasons. It doesn't matter if that's a rare choice, it being a choice at all is unacceptable; we have absolutely no standards for our own kind here in the US, much like dictatorship led and warmongering Russia and China. And this isn't just on moral grounds, I'd say it's on legal grounds too even. It's unlawful to cause undue harm or death to another person, so I would say that a baby that can feel the full effects of pain (pain of death to be specific,) I'd say they should in fact have such rights.
@naysneedle5707
@naysneedle5707 Год назад
@@roger632 In New Zealand abortion is allowed at the woman's discretion up to 20w and only on medical grounds after that. My understanding is that the science suggests the ability of a foetus to consciously experience pain develops after 20 weeks.
@andrewprahst2529
@andrewprahst2529 3 года назад
I just searched "is abortion moral" and this is what came up first. Pretty good top result in my opinion.
@kaiso7322
@kaiso7322 Год назад
Wow. Speechless.
@lloydnicholls1439
@lloydnicholls1439 Год назад
Ha ha, I hope you don't leave all your moral decisions to Google or RU-vid algorithms! (Then again, it might serve you better than most religious texts...)
@KeyFreak2301
@KeyFreak2301 Год назад
@Mac-Attack well that may be disappointing for someone who doesn’t intent to use his own brain to come to a conclusion and instead prefers to get an easy answer by an authority. Having the arguments laid out neutrally should be much favored over having someone try to convince you of their side in my opinion.
@bluetube8824
@bluetube8824 Год назад
This is what we need to be doing on this issue - thinking in through in deep detail, without acrimony, and recognizing that neither side has clear-cut moral superiority here. I have my own opinion on abortion, but because of arguments like this, I can't really claim with certainty that my own thinking is ethically superior. Since that is true, I can't look at those who disagree with me as evil or malicious; they are just people who view the matter differently. It is hard to think that way about something so emotionally challenging, so filled with life and death and suffering and joy as the process of creating or aborting a child, ceding or reclaiming bodily autonomy for a woman. But, we too often think of our opponents on this issue as monsters; thinking like this video tells us we are wrong to think that way..
@purplerose2124
@purplerose2124 Год назад
I really like this comment. I agree with you that I'm unsure of my stance on abortion because both sides have really valid arguments and its difficult to differentiate and extremely difficult to not allow bias and emotions to get in the way. When thinking about this issue i often find when i become emotional i feel like a toddler stamping my foot and saying "WELL ITS WHAT I WANT SO IT MUST BE RIGHT!" And i need to stop myself and rethink where those thoughts and feelings are coming from. A lot of it is from fear. Fear of bad things happening to good people. Be it the fetus, the father, or the mother.
@Tablesalz
@Tablesalz Год назад
I agree that we need to look at both sides of the argument to understand where someone is coming from but I think there certainly is a reason to believe that many pro life activists have malicious intent behind their reasoning. Most pro lifers definitely don‘t care about the babies or the mothers life, they just want to be right. A woman’s bodily autonomy should not be a political issue. A mothers right to abortion is above the unborn fetuses life, doesn’t matter if you think its human or not. We can all have our own opinions but people mostly have a problem with pro lifers forcing their opinions on others especially because everyone defines it differently. The whole point of the pro life movement is to take a woman’s right away. Pro choice doesn’t force people to get abortions thats the difference, so i can understand why pro choicers don’t want to listen to what the other side of the argument has to say.
@superjlk_9538
@superjlk_9538 Год назад
It is morally superior to not allow healthy kids to be killed because the parent simply doesn’t want them.
@superjlk_9538
@superjlk_9538 Год назад
@@Tablesalz there’s no right to kill other people
@superjlk_9538
@superjlk_9538 Год назад
@@Tablesalz you’ve apparently never heard of shelters which a large majority of are run by religious groups. Pro-lifers do care about the women and their babies, but you wouldn’t know that because you don’t actually pay attention
@cormyat07
@cormyat07 Год назад
Problem with abortion debate is that most people haven't thought deeply about it, or really thought about it at all. Their arguments boil down to "right to live" and "my body my choice."
@Mark73
@Mark73 Год назад
Even if the fetus has a right to live, that does not include the right to make use of the woman's body without her consent. Nobody has that right.
@cormyat07
@cormyat07 Год назад
@@Mark73 When consent is impossible, the consent argument has no weight. The argument can also be made that the woman consented when she engaged in coitus.
@Mark73
@Mark73 Год назад
@@cormyat07 How is the woman's consent not possible here? Also, consent must never be assumed, and even if it is granted it can be withdrawn at any time.
@cormyat07
@cormyat07 Год назад
@@Mark73 Consent is irrelevant. It's as ridiculous as saying a woman doesn't consent to have a period or a man doesn't consent to have testicles. Yeah, that's a nice sentiment but it doesn't work out so well unless other people are willing to do the dirty work for you. When your non-consent requires a complete societal infrastructure consisting of other people who proactively enforce your non-consent, it's not a right, and there's more involved than just your consent. Society has to consent as well. Saying "I don't consent" doesn't magically abort that fetus for you." Someone else has to agree to wield the knife. At best it's a woman's prerogative within a modern, technologically advanced society, and it should be argued as such. Personally, I agree with that argument--to a point. But the idea that consent can be withdrawn at any time has to have a cut-off. Otherwise you'll be making hideous arguments like women should be able to have 9 month abortions. The "consent" argument is dumb and comes off like the entitled whinging of people who think the first-world is some kind of biological norm and women are sacrosanct beings whose will shall not be infringed. It shows a distinct lack of understanding how life actually works.
@VolrinSeth
@VolrinSeth Год назад
@@cormyat07 " The argument can also be made that the woman consented when she engaged in coitus." Except that it can't.
@greenredblue
@greenredblue 5 лет назад
I wish all discussion and media was this reasoned, well considered, and dispassionate. But I think that’s why nobody will talk to me at parties. :c
@makari8884
@makari8884 5 лет назад
same
@ryanotte6737
@ryanotte6737 5 лет назад
I recall a strategy from comedian Daniel Tosh to spice up your conversations. You can be all those things, reasoned, well-considered, and dispassionate, but you just have to sprinkle in some remarks under your breath like "suck it". That will get people talking. Oh, and just avoid the topic in this video at all costs.
@sxpreme-2960
@sxpreme-2960 5 лет назад
To be a person you need to be able to make choices & have self fulfilled actions. Period. That's that on that. Once the embyo has movement that us self chosen it is a human being.
@penmaster003
@penmaster003 5 лет назад
Sxpreme - It’s amusing that this whole thread is about how nice it would be if all discussion were reasonable, thoughtful, and dispassionate and you decide to insert your garbled, disjointed, and thoughtless opinion into it.
@MrBillyBunks
@MrBillyBunks 5 лет назад
Maybe it's because you make everything about yourself.
@brucetucker4847
@brucetucker4847 Год назад
First heard the World's Most Famous Violinist hypothetical in law school, and was immediately booed and hissed at by half the class for asking "Does the answer depend in part on whether the violinist was hooked up to you without your consent or you invited the violinist to hook up to you, or the violinist is only in need of human dialysis at all because your negligence caused them to be in that situation?" Most people don't want to discuss or examine these issues rationally, they just want to have their opinions confirmed.
@EragonShadeslayer
@EragonShadeslayer Год назад
Thank you for speaking up. I live in an extremely liberal area - my highschool even had a walkout after Roe v. Wade. Before I continue, I’m not Republican, I disagree with them too. Well, since people here are so liberal they talk about politics all the time and make it their entire life. I have often heard ridiculous claims about tons of topics, one of which is abortion, but honestly I am always too scared to speak up despite me being great at arguing. I am afraid of being shunned. I’ve seen a kid get suspended for a week for something like this. I will not be scared this coming schoolyear though. I am going to move to an entirely different state anyway next year. I have nothing to lose.
@KatrinaDancer
@KatrinaDancer Год назад
@@EragonShadeslayer I never had friends 2 start with. I guess that's why I've never been afraid 2 speak up.
@EragonShadeslayer
@EragonShadeslayer Год назад
@@KatrinaDancer I don’t have friends here either. I am no longer afraid of punishment.
@certiPHIer
@certiPHIer Год назад
Already born women and girls already have "personhood", as well as the ability to survive without receiving constant sustenance from others. As such, they can not be compelled to risk their lives, their health, their sanity, or their financial security for the sake of a cluster of living cells that may one day develop into a person capable of independent life. If that is not true, then we might also see the day when some people are compelled to donate their blood or organs to others just because they are capable of giving the gift of life, even if they do not want to do so. As a woman and a person who has the "universal blood type" that can be given to any injured or sick person, this is personal to me. I do not want to be forced to become an incubator for another person, nor a blood making machine, even though I have already willingly donated gallons of blood to save other's lives. Giving the gift of life is sacred, but if my choice to do so is compelled, it takes away my ability to be able to give the gift, and despoils the sacredness of the act of giving life.
@tijan8948
@tijan8948 Год назад
💯
@kmk5626
@kmk5626 Год назад
You’ve ignored the fact that pregnancy isn’t a magical thing where children suddenly start developing in the womb. You preform acts which could have the chance of creating life, so when it happens, you put it there. You can’t compare it to donating blood, because you likely were not the one who caused a situation where a blood transplant was necessary
@certiPHIer
@certiPHIer Год назад
@@kmk5626 And you ignore the fact that not all acts of sexual intercourse are voluntary on the part of the woman who ends up being the one inseminated. My first sexual encounter was a rape, and most rapists aren't known for being scrupulous about wearing condoms. When I voluntarily have sex, I make sure that there are two simultaneous forms of contraception in use, at least one of which is a barrier method to prevent disease transmission; rapists are not that considerate, to say the least. If you have never had to pick yourself up after being raped, hurting and in terror that you might also be killed, and then have to worry about whether or not you've been contaminated with a disease or impregnated against your will for weeks until you can get tests to find out those answers, then you might want to shut up about how guilty women are and therefore they have no right to chose not to have a child they have been saddled with. And don't try to blame my rape on me being provocative in any way. I was completely covered in very conservative, unflattering clothes, minding my own business, but I was young and alone and vulnerable, and was thus taken advantage of. Rape can happen to ANYONE, it is a crime of opportunity, not anything related to virtue of the victim. When we enact laws that put the rapists through everything they inflict upon their victims, then finally there might be far fewer rapists, but these anti-abortion laws are actually rewarding rapists by giving them progeny and forcing their victims to raise their kids and sometimes to even share custody with the person who enjoyed hurting them and might enjoy hurting children too. That is just sick, and wrong, and there is nothing Christian about such laws. Put back the exemptions for rape, incest, and the health of the mothers, and then maybe you can begin to claim that anti-abortion laws are moral, but not until then.
@kmk5626
@kmk5626 Год назад
@@certiPHIer Then let's keep abortion legal in the case of rape, or in the case that the mother or child won't survive, and make it illegal to abort a baby in any case where it was negligent behavior. We good?
@certiPHIer
@certiPHIer Год назад
@@kmk5626 If all forms of contraception were subsidized to the point of making them free, and they were widely available everywhere, to all ages, no questions asked, and all contraceptives were 100% effective, then maybe we could call unprotected sex negligent behavior. But I am privileged to have had money to afford contraceptives and proper OB-GYN care; there are lots of women, especially teens, who do not have the access to that care, yet are burdened with raging hormones that make them foolishly receptive to the flattering advances of males. There are far too many cases where women were doing the best they could with what was available to them, and because their parents would not acknowlege that they were old enough to need contraceptive protection, or a married couple was too poor to be able to afford 2 means of simultaneous contraception and thus their contraception was insufficient, women still end up getting pregnant without being "negligent" in the sense of not trying to prevent an unwanted pregnancy. And it still doesn't address my point that if you try to compel someone to give the gift of life, that means it is no longer a gift, and becomes a hated punishment instead, and no child should be raised by people who regard it as a mistake or a punishment to them. Being born unloved can be a fate worse than death, in my opinion. Better to be sent back before birth (yes, killed) than to spend your whole childhood unloved and unwanted or even abused at the hands of the very people who should care most for you.
@calohtar
@calohtar 7 лет назад
This guy comes here with a thoughtful, comprehensive exposition of all the complexities in an issue that has been relegated to overemotional moralizing on both sides, and yet the highest rated comments just parrot the same tired memes that don't really engage with the issue without blatant demonization and conflation with terrible metaphors. I fucking worry about our future if people are this incapable of extracting themselves from their opinions and actually considering all sides of an issue instead of figuring out new ways to force their narrow minded opinions on others.
@AKayfabe
@AKayfabe 7 лет назад
But I should not have to consider the side of the issue that makes no sense and is rooted in a bunch of religious BS. And it is. Morality etc are based in religion which has zero place mixed into govt. and law. So no matter what, it needs to stay legal. The reasons it must stay legal outweigh any stupid counter arguments abt it beingva person already. It is NOT a person. It is a lump of cells that cannot think for itself nor even survive alone yet. If you are within someone else's body feeding off them like a parasitic thing, of course the already alive born human being has the final say. There is not decent argument against it other than its murder, and it is not murder, so anti abortionist beliefs are wrong. Also, wanting thousands of women to die painful deaths forced to get illicit abortions if the safe clean ones were illegal, is WRONG too, and not very Christian either. Of course neither is shooting a Dr. Yet these crazy ppl have stooped to this level as well. I will not hear out people like this, no. I am a highly intelligent person. It does not make me stupid to have one absolute opinion of my own.
@pennymac16
@pennymac16 7 лет назад
+A Kayfabe _"But I should not have to consider the side of the issue that makes no sense"_ -- I can agree to that. _"Morality etc are based in religion"_ -- Are you saying there is no morality outside of/possible without religion? And what are laws based on then? _"It is NOT a person."_ -- To state that as fact... What are all the criteria constituting personhood? And why are your criteria the correct ones? _"It is a lump of cells that cannot think for itself nor even survive alone yet."_ -- Can a baby or toddler think for itself or survive alone yet? What about mentally retarded people? When does it stop being a lump of cells? (I guess that's the same as asking for your criteria for personhood.) _"If you are within someone else's body feeding off them..."_ -- Again, what about a baby or toddler? Obviously not 'inside' a person, but how does that matter? _"There is not decent argument against it other than its murder"_ -- Try this: "There is not a decent argument against it other than it's not murder, and it is murder." How is this less valid? _"wanting thousands of women to die painful deaths forced to get illicit abortions..."_ -- Who is even consciously suggesting that? And please, don't make anything up here. One could argue that alcohol prohibition or drug criminalization are similar. The goal is to reduce use and, therefore, harm, not force people to use unsafely. _"I am a highly intelligent person."_ -- I am always sceptical when someone calls *themselves* intelligent or superior in any other abstract way.
@calohtar
@calohtar 7 лет назад
A Kayfabe But you're making moral arguments too, about reproductive rights. It's curious that you are drawing distinctions between what should and should not be considered in government and law, as if these are natural entities based on empiricism rather than a reflection of changeable human values. And you may be intelligent, but that doesn't mean you can't act stupidly. Everyone has their own delusions. Smart people simply have more complex delusions. And the greatest delusion of all is believing you have all the answers. It doesn't make you stupid, but it does make you useless as a source of understanding. If you are not willing to acknowledge and integrate the strengths of opposing arguments, your ideas are garbage. It may be internally consistent due to your intelligent, but it will never exceed the limits of your existing prejudices.
@gushgesh
@gushgesh 7 лет назад
So true, that's what happens when idiots have free reign on the internet.
@JWBrinker3
@JWBrinker3 7 лет назад
+a Kayfabe the video started off with "its a complicated subject" and even those that are not religious do not want to have an abortion if they get pregnant its a very open ended question rooted in the core of our mind so I wish you didn't act like the topic is such an easy one. I would argue, that the right to have an abortion is protected very clearly by the constitution of the united states and therefore, morals aside, should always be legal. The problem with that is that this is a subjective issue and with a lot of people subjectivity rings clearer than objectivity
@TheSwiftFalcon
@TheSwiftFalcon 5 лет назад
Finally someone talking rationally about a complex issue which presents some very real ethical dilemmas. I am surprised by how many seem to think this is a simple issue.
@36gamers
@36gamers 5 лет назад
Is it life or no life. Simple. Prochoicers complicate it because that's what people who run from the truth do. Like the philosophical equivalent of knocking an object over behind you while you are running to obfuscate the path.
@kutie216
@kutie216 5 лет назад
Lukas Nope. Liberals muddy the waters with moral relativism. You guys don't support the death penalty, killing in war, or killing in self defense, but you support killing of an innocent baby because of "convenience".
@36gamers
@36gamers 5 лет назад
@@kutie216 Your comment isn't even remotely related to what I said. I think you have poor reading comprehension.
@kutie216
@kutie216 5 лет назад
Lukas I apologize that was my fault. Sorry about that 😬
@John_Fx
@John_Fx 5 лет назад
@@36gamers Did you even watch this video. The issue isn't over life or no life. it is over person or not. No one would argue that a fetus isn't alive.
@carrias1
@carrias1 Год назад
I find “personhood yes, termination also yes” extremely persuasive. Women shouldn’t gain a unique right to bodily autonomy when they die that we deny them when they’re pregnant and alive
@Jason-wx6uh
@Jason-wx6uh Год назад
great video, I think it's very important to teach people *how* to discuss a topic, so then there can be discussions, instead of shouting matches that achieve little or nothing.
@SerenityNow....
@SerenityNow.... Год назад
It drives me nuts how everyone (on both sides!) keep referring to all of the "fetuses" that are aborted, and whether or not "fetuses" are persons, when the vast majority of abortions are preformed on embryos! Is there really a difference?... Absolutely! During the embryonic stage, cells are still in the process of forming into their differentiated rolls, and no organs have completely formed yet (including the brain and nervous system). The term "fetus" specifically refers to the point in pregnancy when theses structures are now present. This stage is just before the end of the first trimester, meaning approximately 91% of abortions are preformed on embryos, not fetuses. Considering the term "fetus" can bring to mind the image of a tiny person, I do wish professionals would use the correct terminology when discussing this issue.
@sallyjrwjrw6766
@sallyjrwjrw6766 Год назад
Can you share your source? I tried looking this up and found out that the definition of an embryo is weeks 2-8 after fertilization and 44% of abortions were medication abortions (involving pills) that are approved for up to 10 weeks (which would include fetuses).
@SerenityNow....
@SerenityNow.... Год назад
@@sallyjrwjrw6766 We don't actually disagree, but you are missing something. Eight weeks after fertilization is the tenth week of pregnancy. The date a woman's pregnancy is considered to begin is the date of her last menstruation, which is typically about two weeks before the egg actually got fertilized. So, the pregnancy is an embryo thru the tenth week of pregnancy (eighth week since fertilization). Also, medication abortions are allowed up to ten weeks of pregnancy (eight weeks since fertilization), so no fetuses.
@sallyjrwjrw6766
@sallyjrwjrw6766 Год назад
@@SerenityNow.... 👍
@Dan_Capone
@Dan_Capone Год назад
What's the difference? Embryo just refers to a stage of development, just like baby, adolescent and adult are different stages but they're all human beings. If you say that an embryo doesn't have fully formed organs yet, that's true, but that's not what anyone is arguing about. You wouldn't kill a person in a coma with no brain activity if you know that they're going to recover fully in 9 months, and an embryo will naturally develop into a fully formed baby if left alone, so interrupting that process would be akin to pulling the plug of the comatose person.
@aerka0s760
@aerka0s760 Год назад
@@Dan_Capone You didn't listen to the video then. You could consider an embryo is a living being, a group of cells going to be soon a human being. Do you think you killed the potatoes you are eating? They are a group of cells, living being, but you don't consider you killed your vegetables. It's only when it comes to human that people think that way, why do we have to always put ourselves like we are some kind of superior living being, you eat meat (I assume), you don't consider you killed somebody if you eat a chicken, or eat an egg. It's the same, until the cells form a foetus, it's nothing more than a living being, at least to me and some lawyers and scientists.
@JavierSanchez-mo2ef
@JavierSanchez-mo2ef 7 лет назад
Wow, that guy just explained the situation to me better then anyone else ever before. Nice video.
@SSJFro
@SSJFro 7 лет назад
has that changed your view on the situation?
@justgot2go4now
@justgot2go4now 7 лет назад
I don't believe that was the point of the video. Cohen only outlined the issues and rationales of abortion. The video definitely made me think more about my stance on abortion which is all you can really hope for in these types of discussions. There is no right answer just the best argued answer.
@c4call
@c4call 7 лет назад
the question was not whether or not the point of the video was to change their view, but rather whether or not their view was changed, regardless of the intentions of the creators of the video. In most cases of ethical issues, often all that is needed is the separation of emotionalism from the argument. SO, when the emotion is taken out, and all that is left is the basic, fundamental arguments defending the various positions, does your view of the situation change?
@Arachnoscribe
@Arachnoscribe 7 лет назад
Chad Call: The emotional components of this subject are rarely shelved.
@illeatyou3541
@illeatyou3541 5 лет назад
Javier Sánchez try Ben Shapiro
@katethomas5486
@katethomas5486 Год назад
I just wish he had started his discussion with the pregnant mother and asked the same questions: is she human? a person? a person with rights? She exists first, then the pregnancy. The ethical questions about the fetus are predicated upon the unquestionable living person with rights (the mother). As soon as most people think or say "mother," she becomes secondary. Only a nurturer of others, with forced self-sacrifice. Instead, start the ethical discussion with her unalienable rights to her personhood, her body. A different understanding emerges when you begin with the living, feeling, sentient pregnant person. If you think pregnancy changes her rights to her body because there is potential for a new person, then we need to also ask how pregnancy changes the father's rights to his body because of the potential of this new person? (Same-sex couples, single parents using reproductive technologies or adoption would presumable deal with the rights/responsibilities of mothers and fathers legally.) For example, can the gov't force infertility upon the father until he has fully provided for the economic, emotional, and physical well-being of this fetus, the potential person with rights, through adulthood? The "moral" dilemma as framed in this video is gendered but the presenter ignores the male half of the equation. It still takes sperm to make a fetus so if we are going to subtract rights from the female person because of the potential to create another human being, then we in a free and equal democratic society we also need to do the same for the male person who supplied the sperm (unless other parties agree to take on those responsibilities legally). The thought experiment about being hooked-up as a human dialysis for another doesn't require a night of drunkenness -- it is simply a question of the right of a democratic government based on individual freedom and equality to force a person to sacrifice for another. The ability of the gov't to do so -- if it is free and equal -- can't be gendered. The rights of fathers to their body should be limited at the moment of conception if that restriction is placed upon mothers at the moment of conception. Finally, let's look at abortion historically! "Bringing on the menses" was always allowed until quickening and often part of the midwife's job if the woman wanted it until the "modern professionalization" of medicine when men decided to get involved in childbirth.
@creamflower
@creamflower Год назад
This! You have practically covered quite a bit of the assumptions that were inherent in this issue that this speaker did not cover. Focusing purely on the fetus as a potential of a new person meant prioritization of this over the existing person, the woman carrying the child. I always wonder why the focus was so much on the potential rather than the current person aka "mother". Also on the other party to make this fetus happen. You are absolutely right in that they should be involved in this, not just the women. It's always been the burden on the gender that carries the baby for the 9-10 months or so, when the process to make it happen involves the sperm from a male. This party or the family that chooses to have this baby are just as responsible.
@lindsaypaige4628
@lindsaypaige4628 Год назад
Except the baby doesnt just show up in the uterus magically, its most often concieved bc the mother chose to have sex
@UnironicSam
@UnironicSam Год назад
1) child support is required by law in most circumstances so fathers are also expected to give up some freedom when bringing a child into the world. So you’re not totally correct on that. 2) majority of abortions are from two consenting adults having had sex - it’s very convenient for you to insist the mother’s rights are ignored without expecting that we should be held accountable for the use of our body to consent to something that leads to pregnancy. Moreover, women have a wider variety of contraceptives than men, where were all these questions when it was time to have sex? Cherry picking an argument just because you enjoy the benefits of one side doesn’t make you a genius. You’re just lazy.
@johngriswold2213
@johngriswold2213 Год назад
I think you avoid some of the complexity of the question by defining a person as capable of complex thoughts and the ability to project into the future. A Newborn baby has neither of these but still is a person according to both law and common sense. On the other hand, my dog is far more intelligent and capable than that newborn, can entertain thoughts about the future (you should see him lobbying me to go to the dog park), is capable of experiencing pain and anticipating with some dread future and potential pain...and yet most people do not and would not define my dog as a person.
@wowieok6310
@wowieok6310 Год назад
Yeah…a NEWBORN. Not an embryo.
@MichaelRicksAherne
@MichaelRicksAherne Год назад
He used "person" in a very technical sense, which is different from the common vernacular. (You see similar things with "agnostic" and scientific "theory", which are, respectively, NOT "undecided" and NOT "just a guess".) Most people might not call your dog a person, but I think they would ascribe to it the values of personhood, like "shouldn't be killed without a good reason."
@christopherkerr6307
@christopherkerr6307 Год назад
Well yeah, in a technical sense you could use “A person is a being that has certain capacities or attributes such as reason, morality, consciousness or self-consciousness.”. In that sense a baby is not a person. It’s human, but not a person. Definitions are important in these discussions.
@johngriswold2213
@johngriswold2213 Год назад
@@christopherkerr6307 Important and nearly impossible to agree on.
@kooldudematt1
@kooldudematt1 Год назад
@@johngriswold2213 The best way to define a word is to look at its etymology. Let's do that. person: c. 1200, persoun, "an individual, a human being," from Old French persone "human being, anyone, person" (12c., Modern French personne) and directly from Latin persona "human being, person, personage; a part in a drama, assumed character," originally "a mask, a false face," such as those of wood or clay, covering the whole head, worn by the actors in later Roman theater. OED offers the general 19c. explanation of persona as "related to" Latin personare "to sound through" (i.e. the mask as something spoken through and perhaps amplifying the voice), "but the long o makes a difficulty ...." Klein and Barnhart say it is possibly borrowed from Etruscan phersu "mask." De Vaan has no entry for it. The argument that a person can exist without being a human being is literally antonymous to the very definition of the word.
@gheller2261
@gheller2261 Год назад
These thought experiments are interesting, including arriving at the word "person." But to me it is very simple, if we cannot agree on definitions and there can be reasonable disagreement on definitions, then the state should not be involved in decision-making regarding the matter.
@karlnord1429
@karlnord1429 Год назад
If Religious Conservatives believe that it is murder then I understand their desire to get the law involved, since murder is ethics 101. They do not even agree that there is reasonable disagreement. Of course, introducing people to the complexity is the solution, but education costs Pro-Choicers their time and energy.
@puzzLEGO
@puzzLEGO Год назад
this doesn't make sense to me. Most conservatives can easily agree on a criteria such as a heart beat, but the contesting view will obviously refuse to agree on this criteria even if they think it's true simply because they want to continue allowing abortions
@Xsdwolf
@Xsdwolf Год назад
@@puzzLEGO that’s not at all most conservatives. It’s definitely not the most politically active conservatives. Most conservatives believe life starts at conception. Some say heartbeat. Some are more libertarian and believe in full abortion up to viability outside the womb. Most Americans in general though, left and right, believe it should be up to the woman, most don’t like abortion and wouldn’t choose it for themselves, but most would say anything past viability not okay.
@frankdayton731
@frankdayton731 Год назад
"We" don't agree on many political issues, but legislatures still pass laws. So why exactly does there have to be agreement on definitions? Pro-abortion people know full well what pro-lifers mean by person, and in almost all other areas of civic life they abide by those same definitions. No large groups of people are marching in the street angrily demanding that comatose patients be immediately pulled off life support because they aren't "persons". No one is lobbying for the government to release all murderers convicted of double murder for killing a pregnant woman and her baby, because the fetus wasn't a "person".
@w.alan.21
@w.alan.21 Год назад
The state / civilized society has to make a decision as to when a person will be protected under the law.
@cariwaldick4898
@cariwaldick4898 Год назад
I've discovered that in most discussions--either pro or con--it eventually comes down to morality. There's the "innocent" aspect that's ascribed to a fetus, while every other life isn't granted that consideration. This is why so many are against abortion, while they're fine with the death penalty, war, famine, and letting people die needing organ transplants. The sanctity of human life only matters if that life is "innocent."
@Eric-ye5yz
@Eric-ye5yz Год назад
Its the religious right that is more likely to be against abortion. If the life is innocent and aborted, then there is no reason to believe it will not go to heaven, if it is allowed to live in a world that did not want him, he will become angry and a criminal, therefor go to hell on his death.
@cariwaldick4898
@cariwaldick4898 Год назад
@@Eric-ye5yz You're right about the religious nuts being against abortion. But the argument that aborted "babies" are bound for Heaven doesn't matter to them. The same argument could be used to kill children outside the womb--send 'em on to God. It's not about legitimate reasons to protect one vs the other; it's all a moral issue. They try to justify it with the "innocent" label. What they really mean, is that the "dirty hoes" need to have their rights superceded by the "innocent."
@hunterbidensaidslesion1356
@hunterbidensaidslesion1356 Год назад
People are fine with war, famine, and a distinct lack of spare organs? Huh.
@HA-wg8ue
@HA-wg8ue Год назад
@@Eric-ye5yz A baby who is born into a family that doesn't want them isn't any less worthy of life because those around them didn't want them. You wouldn't look at a 1 day old born into an unwelcoming family and think "they should be able to kill that baby because it's better than him continuing that life"...or would you ?
@mariatomko4278
@mariatomko4278 Год назад
@@HA-wg8ue A lot just seem blithely unaware that when they say no child should be born unwanted/into poverty and/or abuse they are saying to millions who were born into those situations that "The world would be a better, fairer place if you'd never been born".
@dfs-comedy
@dfs-comedy Год назад
Canada (where I live) has no law regarding abortion. It's a medical procedure, just like any other, and is covered by government health insurance. We also have a lower abortion rate than the United States. It's almost as if making contraception and sex education available without moral judgement might even work.
@Haylla2008
@Haylla2008 Год назад
That's not technically true. It doesn't (currently) have laws preventing abortion but it does have law supporting it (as you mentioned, law allowing it to be covered by health insurance). It's hard to say if it's the sex education and lack of moral judgement that is the reason. It could be other factors like a culture less inclined to abortion (perhaps because of financial viability) or more abortions going under the radar (since at home pill-induced methods) aren't counted in the stats.
@dfs-comedy
@dfs-comedy Год назад
@@Haylla2008 There's no law in Canada "supporting" abortion any more than there is a law "supporting" hip replacement or heart surgery or any other sort of necessary medical procedure. I don't think Canadian culture is less inclined to abortion than the US; if anything, I think it's the opposite as we have a significantly lower level of religiosity here and a majority of anti-abortionists cite religious motivation for their stance.
@Haylla2008
@Haylla2008 Год назад
@@dfs-comedy If it funds abortions, it supports it. Whether the same law supports anything else is irrelevant. For the rest, I was simply giving alternative potential reasons for lower abortion rates.
@dfs-comedy
@dfs-comedy Год назад
@@Haylla2008 Again: There's no law explicitly saying "Abortion will be funded." There's a law saying "necessary medical care will be funded" and then it's up to medical consensus to determine what is necessary medical care. Notably, the decision is *NOT* made by politicians or lawmakers. "For the rest, I was simply giving alternative potential reasons for lower abortion rates." Your alternative explanations are not convincing.
@Haylla2008
@Haylla2008 Год назад
@@dfs-comedy Since when does something have to be explicitly stated to be supported? If I give money to a charity, I've supported it, have I not? They weren't meant to be convincing since they were a non-exhaustive list of *potential reasons* and not *explanations*. Girl, I have no problem staying here and arguing with you a while longer but you're honestly making mountains out of molehills here.
@LongLiveTheDoors67
@LongLiveTheDoors67 Год назад
This was a great video. Talking about the objections that either side has with the arguments of the other is an I portant exercise if we want to come to an agreement. Usually, you get people who don't want to acknowledge the other side's objections and moving the goalpost.
@mishi144
@mishi144 5 лет назад
Focusing even more on prevention of unwanted pregnancies would be way way way better.
@madam_mim
@madam_mim 5 лет назад
That's the problem. They aren't just trying to take away abortion, these same people are denying others birth control in the first place, and even sexual education prior to that. Abortion will not go away, whether it is legal or illegal, until the need for it goes away.
@agchains78543
@agchains78543 5 лет назад
@@madam_mim Sexual education has lead to a rise in premarital sex. It is not a good idea, it leads to unwanted pregnancies, and that's why we want it gone.
@joshdeveaux6936
@joshdeveaux6936 5 лет назад
@@madam_mim unless you live somewhere other than america that is the most inaccurate thing ive ever heard in my life
@agchains78543
@agchains78543 5 лет назад
@Temaghn O Murchada I would prefer that we not use a program that has led to a rise in unwanted pregnancies. I would rather young girls not go through the trauma of getting an abortion, which can wreak havoc on the body, and I would rather innocent lives not be extinguished. I know not all parents are as responsible as they should be, but they should be responsible for teaching their own children what they believe that they need to know. What we shouldn't be doing, is continuing a program that has clearly caused more harm than good. Your attempt to strawman me is pointless. You talk about being responsible with your body, while ignoring that my entire point is that sexual education has made teens and young adults less responsible with their bodies.
@luanals5199
@luanals5199 5 лет назад
@@agchains78543 actually teaching abstinence leads to unwanted pregnancies, since people are going to have sex regardless. I'm from Austria, we learned everything about protection, reproduction, and sexual health in third grade. Never seen a pregnant teenager where I live
@lizbecker1677
@lizbecker1677 Год назад
I went to a Catholic high school, and we had this discussion in senior year religion class. It got really deep, but as someone previously said in these comments, it encouraged critical thinking. I respect differing opinions, but this is a good argument for everyone to hear.
@VeggieRice
@VeggieRice Год назад
a Catholic school class is actually one of the only areas it should ever be up for debate, since it's one of the only realms where there's an objection--a faith based one, contrived outside of science or medicine.
@n00bie96
@n00bie96 Год назад
I went to a Catholic school too. I was taught that abortion is permitted if it threatens the mother's life (e.g. cervical cancer). But in other cases, such as cases of rape, it is not allowed. So idk I'm no longer a catholic
@oskarngo9138
@oskarngo9138 Год назад
No one has reconciled (good) God/ethics and Scarcity/Climate Change... Dare you to...!
@sosayweall_jpg
@sosayweall_jpg Год назад
I also went to a catholic HS and while we never had a discussion about the like.. merits of abortion and it being a "complex" issue, I did have a teacher who did try to reinforce critical thinking and asked us to examine facts and draw conclusions. they certainly hoped for that to reinforce the pro-life ideology but instead it very much made me re-evaluate my own religious identity and eventually reject it. abortion is a legal issue and therefore must remain secular. it IS complex, philosophically, however it is also necessary regardless of your philosophical position. because women's bodies should be their own. women should be able to engage in sexual relations freely, and while abortion is NO ONE'S first choice for contraceptive, it should remain an option for those who need it. Forcing someone to remain pregnant against their will, and give birth, is tantamount to a medical criminal sentence. Imagine sentencing someone to having a surgical procedure against their will, for an act which simply cannot be considered criminal, consensual sex. Let alone in cases of r@pe where a woman literally has already been made a victim of 1 crime, then treating her as a criminal with that forced pregnancy. It is a complicated philosophical question, but it should remain a very simple legal one. The life of the woman as well as control over her own body should remain firmly in her control. Full stop.
@EvilEyeWeddings
@EvilEyeWeddings Год назад
So if its ok for anyone to have right to discuss the topic using this 'critical thinking', shouldnt everybody have right to decide as well?
@postscript7783
@postscript7783 Год назад
my opinion, and this is an argument I’ve never heard anyone make, is that the fetus is indistinguishable from the gestating parent until extremely late in the pregnancy. it grows inside their body and is intricately connected to their blood supply. it’s not a person because it is not a separate entity from the parent. thus it should be considered a part of the parent’s body, like an organ, and thus the parent has the right to remove it if they wish.
@marcusrauch4223
@marcusrauch4223 Год назад
It is destinguishable from the parent by having it’s own unique DNA, and therefore an entity on its own. If the baby were „just an organ“, then it would have the same DNA as the mother.
@postscript7783
@postscript7783 Год назад
@@marcusrauch4223 why should the fact that its DNA is different be the determining factor in whether or not it a separate entity? people can have cells with different DNA within their body naturally; it’s called mosaicism. or even more simply, what about a transplanted organ? further, are genetically identical twins not separate entities despite having identical DNA? point is, having different genetic code doesn’t mean it is or is not part of the body.
@ft4903
@ft4903 Год назад
@@marcusrauch4223 Your fingernail has its own distinct DNA from your kidney, you're going to run into the ship of theseus problem
@jadelovesfud
@jadelovesfud Год назад
I get your point, but you can't really say that something is not a person just because they are strictly dependent on another person. For example, conjoined twins that are sharing a heart, both of them are persons but they share a heart that if you take away from the one twin, it will die. That twin is strictly dependent on the other twin for blood supply, yet both of them are still a person.
@The-Okami-Project
@The-Okami-Project Год назад
@@marcusrauch4223 save all cancer cells then
@PirateOfTheNorth
@PirateOfTheNorth Год назад
Doesn’t give easy access to birth control, the only sex ed in some areas is abstinence or pulling out, and then banning abortions. How about working on preventing women needing abortions?
@gaminggeckos4388
@gaminggeckos4388 Год назад
And yet now we’ve got tons of people who want to ALSO ban birth control… Ugh.
@sharlcloves4216
@sharlcloves4216 Год назад
Bro you can't teach
@barbarasherman4870
@barbarasherman4870 5 лет назад
I had an early stage abortion and don’t regret that choice. My entire extended family was in ongoing mental health crises with accidents, deaths, illness, addictions etc. I had no capacity to handle the unwanted pregnancy.
@spiritmatter1553
@spiritmatter1553 2 года назад
Did that early abortion cure the wave of mental health crises that was overtaking your family?
@lanazak773
@lanazak773 2 года назад
I would guess that a lot of women don’t regret it, especially early stage, but don’t talk about it because it’s not very acceptable.
@jimbeam8338
@jimbeam8338 Год назад
Early stage is one thing, but later stage is when it becomes a problem. The whole idea that you aren't a person until the moment of birth is insanity.
@mouaadjaaidi5011
@mouaadjaaidi5011 Год назад
You didnt have an abortion, you had a pregnancy. And that is what you should regret, not the unplugging. But you knpow that you killed your own baby. That's a scar, regret it or not, it's there in your unconcious mind.
@mebeb6399
@mebeb6399 Год назад
@@mouaadjaaidi5011 you are projecting what you feel
@caralawson9616
@caralawson9616 Год назад
Just how complex this dilemma is shows me that this is something to be left up to every individual and their healthcare provider to decide, not the government
@partydean17
@partydean17 Год назад
Really? So if something becomes complex enough then we can stop having discussions on regulations or protections? How does complexity inform your decision there? I agree that the complexity may warrant not having a simplistic solution but Wouldn't the thoughts and approaches just have to match the dilemma in complexity?
@ebg3624
@ebg3624 Год назад
Or illegal
@octem2251
@octem2251 Год назад
You will eventually ask for money to the government, not cool
@joeljong931
@joeljong931 Год назад
@@partydean17 possibly but in real life women with miscarriages have and will die because of laws against abortion. Taking a survivalist view, in some miscarriage cases the baby is not expected to live to adulthood naturally, to preserve the greatest amount of life, the baby should be sacrificed for the mother's survival; but if the mother so chooses; she could sacrifice herself for the baby. the choice should be the mother and not the government in these cases. Abortion laws have caused the death of both mother and the baby which had poor viability and doctors were scared to break abortion laws. I think it was in Poland not sure, which recently made abortion for fetal abnormality illegal, which probably people want to see here as well. Problem is these situations do not concern the judges in that country, which is the model of what can happen here.
@partydean17
@partydean17 Год назад
@@joeljong931 yeah so I've heard that before. The technology used to tear apart the fetus and safely extract it are not what's being made illegal, so while that is tragic what happened in possibly Poland, hopefully the corpse didn't go necrotic and get her sick, can you see that is not what people mean by abortion? Like the tools are not what's being attacked it seems like the issue people have is primarily the killing act, not suction machines themselves. As for abnormalities, I assume you are talking about abnormalities that would result in an extremely dangerous pregnancy? Or do you mean just babies that are not normal? If it's the former again those are interesting dilemmas but just because they are heartbreaking and tough does not mean a community has to check out. For those cases it seems obvious that's why the technology should be around, almost as a means of self defense. Again tragic for those making that decision. The question a government can raise tho if they want the humans under their care killing the humans they deem abnormal and inconvenient to their financial and mental well being, is something I think that's atleast valid to be discussed. And this is coming from someone who believes abortion access should be available and not banned, but I'm not going to then say nobody should make any regulations on something because it's complicated. I think thinking about these dilemmas is important and valid, and like I said our policy in its ideal state would match the complexity of the dilemma.
@LearnThaiRapidMethod
@LearnThaiRapidMethod Год назад
Spot on! And then there’s also the issue of consistency. If you believe that foetuses are persons who have the right to life then you must have similarly strong feelings about the right to a decent, healthy life for all humans (without exception), and all animals that can experience pain and suffering too. Being "pro-life" can’t just be limited to fetal life, it must apply to all life. Any pro-lifer who is also not a strict vegan, and does not fully support free health care and education, a minimum standard of living, right to a home, banning of slavery in any form, etc. is ultimately no more than a malicious hypocrite!
@jackwillson9797
@jackwillson9797 Год назад
"Spot on! And then there’s also the issue of consistency. If you believe that foetuses are persons who have the right to life then you must have similarly strong feelings about the right to a decent, healthy life for all humans (without exception), and all animals that can experience pain and suffering too." "Being "pro-life" can’t just be limited to fetal life, it must apply to all life." What an amusing slippery-slope, by that same flawed logic pro-choice also shouldn't just be limited to the fetus/baby inside your body, it should also be extended to anyone who stops you in your way of career, ambition or simply in the way of your preferred utopian standard like the N@zis! Any pro-choice people who say otherwise are just malevolent hypocrites!
@guilhermeferrao5968
@guilhermeferrao5968 Год назад
I agree this is a slippery slope argument. The pro-life argument is that every human being has a fundamental right to live, and because of this there should be nothing in law predicting the end of someone's life, unless someone else's life is in danger. This has nothing to do with any other cases which were pointed out in this comment. If anything, consistency should come in other matters such as the death penalty (I stand against death penalty precisely because of this reason), euthanasia (I stand against euthanasia for this reason), and war (I think the only justifiable reason for war is in self defense of a nation, also for this reason). Being "pro-life" has nothing to do with standards of living, it only has to do with living.
@jeremygarst394
@jeremygarst394 Год назад
The term "pro-life" arose directly from the anti-abortion movement in the US and has always meant anti-abortion. Adding to that definition is appropriation.
@LearnThaiRapidMethod
@LearnThaiRapidMethod Год назад
@@jeremygarst394 Sure. It's doublethink of course: War Is Peace; Freedom Is Slavery; Ignorance Is Strength. Pro-life is...?
@jeremygarst394
@jeremygarst394 Год назад
@@LearnThaiRapidMethod what are you talking about?
@broEye1
@broEye1 Год назад
I'm glad he brought up the complexity that's ignored in that violinist analogy: the fact that most people chose to do something that they knew could result in them being hooked up to the violinist for the better part of a year. There's a big distinction morally between a person who chose to do something they knew could bring about a result and a person who was put through that action against their will. Especially when you consider that, while you may compare the result (pregnancy) to being temporarily hooked up to someone as a living dialysis machine, the causative action itself is more like Russian roulette, in that you're performing a process on a device designed to produce a particular result. There's tons of things you can do to make it far less likely that the bullet will actually fire, but you're still not going to look the same at a person who shot him/herself for some kind of entertainment or to prove his/her love for another as you do at someone who simply got shot.
@inclinedplane0192
@inclinedplane0192 Год назад
I'm her 1971 paper with the famous violinist argument, A Defense of Abortion, Judith Jarvis Thompson also presents her "people-seeds" argument which addresses this point. It's over 40 years old and has been criticized and defended many times, but is still worth reading! Wikipedia has a good introduction to the paper.
@highdefinition8261
@highdefinition8261 Год назад
When people have s*x protected, they are not Consenting to pregnancy but to pleasure, that’s why they use precautions (birth control). When I drive, I’m not consenting to hitting someone and having a car crash thT will potentially kill another life (even though they is a chance of this happening), hence why, drivers take precautions by taking driving test; we don’t avoid driving completely, on The basis, we can kill another life . They is no area of life without consequences, and we shouldn’t stop doing something because it has consequence, but we start, by taking precautions. using birth control, is about 98-99.8% effective (about 1 in 100 will get pregnant using the pill and with the iud 2 in 1000 will get pregnant. The chances of being in a car crash is 1 in 101 chances.
@broEye1
@broEye1 Год назад
@@highdefinition8261 Problem is that a car wasn't designed to crash, it was designed to move things from A to B. The parts involved and the mechanisms activated in sexual intercourse are designed to bring a sperm and egg together. There's a bit of a difference between "consequences" and "designed outcomes". And I'm not trying to enforce divine design or anything either. Evolutionary processes are often described as a sort of "design", with, in this case, the sexual organs adapting to be more effective in bringing about safe procreation and motivating the parties involved to engage in the procreative act. Thus my Russian roulette metaphor. The hypothetical guy playing this game isn't, by your reasoning, "consenting" to blowing his brains out, he's just looking for a thrill. Doesn't change the fact that he's pointing a device designed to shoot things at his head and engaging the mechanism designed to cause it to fire. And it doesn't matter if the guy took enough precautions that the chance of it successfully firing with enough force to pierce his skull is less than one in a MILLION, let alone one or two in a hundred, the fact that he willingly did something with that as its designed purpose should lead to him being viewed in a very different way than people who were shot without any desire to be a part of what was happening. I'm not saying abortion should be banned; I'm frankly against bans at such an early stage as so many states are doing. But I am saying that there's a huge difference between someone who willingly had sex and someone who was raped, and I am frankly disgusted by any law or analogy or argument that tries to equate them.
@highdefinition8261
@highdefinition8261 Год назад
@@broEye1 The car was not design to crash, but it sure had the possibility of crashing! People building it, knew that this is a possibility regardless of the design. The design of sex is both for pleasure and reproduction; if sex had no satisfaction tied to it, people would not have sex unless they wanted kids. The overal point is, people shouldn’t stop doing things because they is consequences, that’s not how life works.
@broEye1
@broEye1 Год назад
​@@highdefinition8261 The pleasure serves the same purpose as instinct: to encourage the act. It doesn't change the fact that the act itself is by design meant to bring about the presence of sperm within the uterus, where the sperm's design will lead it toward the egg if present. Even if you insist that pleasure is just as much a purpose, that doesn't change the fact that reproduction is also its purpose, and in fact its primary purpose. A car's purpose is not to crash. A gun's purpose is to fire, and a sword's purpose is to cut. And in any case, even if it weren't the case, it does not change my core point that it's disgusting to try and equate a person who willingly did something that can result in something with someone who was put through it without their knowledge and/or consent. It doesn't matter whether you're for or against any kind of law on abortion, if you think that a woman who was raped should be seen as no different from a woman who chose to have sex then I can't feel anything but disgust and contempt for you.
@GibSonLoGic
@GibSonLoGic Год назад
Here because of the recent Roe V Wade outcome, want to learn more and hear a rational breakdown of the ethical & legal dilemma, views from both sides of the argument. This is an excellent video.
@ThePatrickFamilyBand
@ThePatrickFamilyBand Год назад
This is hands down the best video *I* have ever seen that laid out the groundwork for the issue in an extremely unbiased, non-partisan way.
@brucewayne9639
@brucewayne9639 Год назад
When it comes to the supreme they only have the power to judge rather roe v Wade is constitutional or not. To which it's not.
@VeggieRice
@VeggieRice Год назад
well there's no both sides of the argument, you'd have to open it way up to like 20 or 30 sides before the eventual religious element is introduced, bc from a medical & ethical standpoint, there'ss no logical basis for the denial of access to this kind of care, since doing so leads to more negative outcomes for women and fetuses, & never the inverse
@lancegreicar5913
@lancegreicar5913 Год назад
More negative? In the care you mention the fetus is terminated/killed. What is more negative?
@chasingdharmaify
@chasingdharmaify Год назад
@@lancegreicar5913 Abortion restrictions lead to higher maternal mortality and morbidity, up to a 35% increase. This is super troubling because the US has the highest rate of maternal mortality of our peer countries. Also increases food insecurity in children, among a host of other socioeconomic issues. Restricting healthcare access needlessly kills living, breathing people. And I have yet to see the forced birth movement show how they're going to care for the children that didn't ask to be here after a rise in unwanted births.
@Satsaru
@Satsaru 7 лет назад
What a nuanced, well thought out video that honestly addresses the valid points of both sides of the abortion argument. I'm sure it will be completely ignored in the comments by people who only came to yell what they already thought at other people.
@Windwond
@Windwond 5 лет назад
Satsaru It gives the air of nuance, but is just another pro-abortionist’s attempt to sway.
@StrategicWealthLLC
@StrategicWealthLLC 5 лет назад
I found it an interesting and thoughtful articulation of the different points of consideration. I don’t find those points to be particularly persuasive in any way that supports abortion.
@MsScarletwings
@MsScarletwings 5 лет назад
PalmerWhit “pro-choice” There’s a lot of people on this leaning who don’t like abortions any more than you do. Pro abortion would be to advocate for and recommend and praise abortions, rather than the actual position of saying “it’s the individual’s choice and i want them to have the freedom to make that choice.”
@Azrael1486
@Azrael1486 5 лет назад
@@MsScarletwings why wouldn't you praise and be pro abortion? Is it wrong or something?
@MsScarletwings
@MsScarletwings 5 лет назад
Azrael1486 Because it’s a very nuanced and serious issue. No one just up and decides to get an abortion after a Tuesday lunch. For some women in that position, it may not be such a big deal. For others, it may be a terribly difficult, heartbreaking choice, but ultimately necessary or for the better. Personally I think it’s a pretty solidly neutral action up until fetal viability. From then on I’m willing to work out a grey area from there. I don’t call myself “pro abortion” What I’m FOR is a woman’s right to her own bodily autonomy and reproductive choices. What I’m for is looking at this from a practical perspective and erring on the side of personal freedom. What “pro-birth” (because I don’t find pro life an accurate descriptor) people are for is more big governmental regulation, more theocracy, and equating literal *zygotes* and embryos to a fully formed, sentient individual.
@TheIndigodog
@TheIndigodog Год назад
I have met dogs that demonstrated more personhood that some full grown adults. If life begins at conceptions, so should child support payments.
@johnex1029
@johnex1029 Год назад
Sure. Just prove what the fetus is spending the money on.
@traceyshenanigans
@traceyshenanigans Год назад
In my most cyncial moments, I think that the only way we can have an unbiased discussion of this issue is the development of science that allows men to be implanted with and carry a child to term.
@nusaibahibraheem8183
@nusaibahibraheem8183 Год назад
That will only be true if all men were against abortion and all women were pro abortion. This isn't the case however. This isn't men vs women thing. Although it would be great if that is possible, I mean for men to be pregnant. That way if the father wants the baby, he can carry it to term.
@traceyshenanigans
@traceyshenanigans Год назад
@@nusaibahibraheem8183 That isn't really my point. All people can have an opinion about something like...covid vaccinations... because everyone can get covid or have covid vaccinations. In the case of abortion, men get to have an opinion about something that they can't ever get or have.
@jonson856
@jonson856 Год назад
@@nusaibahibraheem8183 Ive heard that the biggeest demographic that is against abortions or pro-life, are women. Especiallyy women who already had abortions and regretted it. Men arent necessarily against abortion, on average, because this means they can have more sex without the consequences of being responsible for a child. So this whole "men should become pregnant" discussion is a red-herring
@rahuljosephkickyourass
@rahuljosephkickyourass Год назад
@@jonson856 Source?
@valian8985
@valian8985 Год назад
@@traceyshenanigans stupid argument, you need two people to make à baby... Folowing your logic, why do people are givin a shit about Ukraine ? It dont direcly concern them.
@briancooper9983
@briancooper9983 Год назад
The question of personhood is a compelling one, but it’s been used throughout history to justify the mistreatment of individuals whom we’ve come to realize actually are just as much a person as us. Just this week, I learned about the experiments done on black women based on the belief that they were slaves and didn’t feel pain like “a person.”
@DanielJahn
@DanielJahn Год назад
Look at all the arguments used to support slavery or the holocaust. They are the same arguments used to support abortion. It all comes down to not believing that all human life has value.
@TheEpicTsube
@TheEpicTsube Год назад
Brian, what you are addressing is exactly what was being discussed in this video. What constitutes a person that deserves all the rights and benefits of being one? The argument you're making that history has instances of injustice that have used this logic to define them is like saying that we shouldn't allow for arguments using any objectively neutral manner. What if we said we shouldn't allow the argument that family is important to individuals in society because family lines have been used throughout history to justify the mistreatment of individuals who also have families just like us. It just doesn't make any sense. The entirety of using a firm base such as "what is a person" in this argument is to establish grounds for what we should consider rights for all parties involved. If you approach it with good morals when you ask the question, you can achieve a just answer. Clearly, in your example, there are flaws in the logic about what defines someone as a person. We can show those flaws with science and define them by exposing the bias. These "sensationalist", "I'm being profound about humanity", ideas are not well thought out and do nothing but cause divisiveness between people. Disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing or for the sake of "Well this makes me not feel fuzzy inside even if it's well thought out." does nothing for anyone.
@currentcommerce4774
@currentcommerce4774 Год назад
legally slaves werent full people, but 3/5ths person. it wouldnt surprise me if at some point liberals make the same kind of arguement in order to be permissive of the rumspringa our culture has become today
@joelt2002
@joelt2002 Год назад
@@TheEpicTsube Brian's argument, is that personhood is an arbitrary framework that has been consistently used throughout history to justify evil acts. As in, as long as I can argue you aren't a "real" person there is no moral problem with mistreating or killing you. As in the argument is bad from the start. You can place 10 philosophers into a room together and they will all come out with different definitions of what a person is. How can that be the basis of a legal or moral framework? The reason it is being used is because those that want to do something, know it makes the unethical act they are considering morally ambiguous. It's why War Time Propaganda makes out the enemy to being monstrous so it is easier for you to commit homicide on the battlefield. It's a way to condition the mind to doing a morally bad act, killing another human. Historically person was just an analog for a human being. A unique organism that has the genetic make up of human. This isn't a discussion about rights. This is a discussion about values and obligations. Does human life have inherent value? One side has widely claimed it doesn't, or that some arbitrary threshold that they can't agree on must be met before it has value. The other side states all human life has value, thus ending it requires an extreme reason to do so.
@TheEpicTsube
@TheEpicTsube Год назад
@@joelt2002 What you are explaining to me is exactly what Professor Cohen is discussing. That's where I think you both are missing the mark and not understanding where Cohen is coming from in his completely neutral discussion. Starting at 4:13 he speaks on the metaphysical work that must be taken into account to determine what constitutes a person for an embryo or fetus. He's directly addressing that some of this comes down to philosophy around the potentiality of human life and where you've determined that it has some semblance of value. At that point, he goes on to discuss how one could view that one's interests could supersede another's in some situations even after you've determined something has value. The point of this portion of his discussion is almost directly linked to "value". Your statements on historically how 'personhood' has been used can literally be substituted with 'value'. The argument you are making is completely interchangeable. The term person in this discussion directly relates to your argument on value; Person roughly equates to "the point where (as you said in your argument) a life has 'inherent value'". The part where you said "the arbitrary threshold that they can't agree on" is what is meant by "person" in this argument. The point of Professor Cohen's argument is stating in the most neutral manner possible how we can objectively approach the question of when that inherent value comes into play (being a person), and then he states that after doing so, then we need to approach the question of when does the interests of one person overtake the interests of another. His discussion about rights is directly addressing your talk about obligations. All in all, he's using different words to talk about the same thing you are. His approach happens to be more objectively based, which makes it more tangible in my opinion. Disagreeing with his statements and then rewording the same argument he is making in your own words in a more ambiguous manner then saying "this is right" is frivolous and confusing to people who also don't fully understand. With that said, if it helps at all for clarification, Professor Cohen did a TED talk (not abortion specific) on this inherent value called "Are There Non-human Persons? Are There Non-person Humans?" that you can find here on RU-vid. He goes into depth about the exact argument about how it has been used for villainy and how it is an ethical requirement that humanity approach this question of value (because that's exactly what it is) with the most neutral approach possible. He served under the judges of the International Criminal Tribunal trying Rwandan's who had participated in the genocide of the Tutsis. His point in that talk is discussing how people used "depersonalization" or, in your terms, "devaluing" their lives until they felt it was ok to kill an entire group of people. Jumping to disagreement without fully comprehending his statement is not just a bad habit... It also fuels people to take your "face value" approach and disagree with something without thinking it through. If we as a people want to make strides to better our world, we need to stop jumping to disagreement on ideals that we haven't thought through. It's selling sensationalism, and it's tearing people apart. We shouldn't be excited to promote ideas just because it sounds profound and we certainly should spend more time evaluating what someone else has said before we respond. I hope this clears up my original point to Brian.
@ScruffyTheJ
@ScruffyTheJ 7 лет назад
I think most of the comments are from people who didn't even watch the video.
@pikkuadi
@pikkuadi 7 лет назад
This is often the case.
@davidmclaughlin217
@davidmclaughlin217 7 лет назад
what video?
@benlyman7880
@benlyman7880 7 лет назад
XD
@oz9213
@oz9213 6 лет назад
or they just reject the idea of being a "person" and it mattering i'm a living human and i am NOT a person, "persons" is a legal fiction the government uses to own you so the whole presentation (in it's statist way) acts like the legal fiction of being a "person" is a natural state of human existence but it isn't might explain some comments
@chamboyette853
@chamboyette853 6 лет назад
Transparent - I didn't watch the video but I saw the cartoon version.
@henrybrice86
@henrybrice86 Год назад
Great piece, but it does get something wrong about the birth (pun fully intended) of the anti-abortion-rights movement in the US. It didn't start "very shortly" after RvW, it started a couple of years later, as a political tactic to get voters riled up. Following RvW, the response of the vast majority of the conservative estabishment, including rabidly anti-abortion organisations like the Southern Baptist Convention, was basiclly "yeah, okay, makes sense". The SBC reiterated this as late as 1976, three years after RvW. Being against abortion rights was seen as a rather esoteric Catholic idea, and while the movement did grow, it was seen as fringe until Paul Weyrich and Falwell decided to use it as a call to arms in their efforts to make the Evangelical right politcally active and to overthrow Carter--an effort that actually started in order to preseve racial segregation in schools.
@EleneDOM
@EleneDOM Год назад
Thank you! Not enough people know about this, and too many think that evangelicals were always totally anti-abortion.
@dorothysay8327
@dorothysay8327 Год назад
I was there, and I remember faithful Christians being shocked by the Supreme Court’s decision in 1973. Nobody I knew thought this was a good, moral, ethical decision.
@Haylla2008
@Haylla2008 Год назад
It was likely stirring up before that, if not as a movement, then in the minds and conversations of the groups and people in question. Information didn't spread as rapidly as it does now and organization of things wasn't as accessible or quick (or as prioritized), especially for those living in rural areas who were more likely to be any type of Christian other than Catholic. Also, "very shortly" is a relative phrase. 3 years isn't that long in some people's minds and certainly not in the course of history. Furthermore, an idea spreading due to political tactics doesn't mean the idea is invalid in any way. So, good information to have but knowing it doesn't really change anything about what he said in the video.
@jonson856
@jonson856 Год назад
Prior to RvW abortion was heavily limited in most states. Roe v Wade was about abortion in case of rape, which Ms. Roe claimed back then but later admitted she lied and also repented, became a Catholic and became a staunch pro-lifer. However, nowadays, abortion isnt because of rape. I have seen several statistics and they all say pretty much the same. Of all recorded abortion cases ... 0.1-1% is because of rape or incest 6-8% is because of medical reasons Up to 20% because of financial reasons The rest, 71%, for no reason whatsoever That means up to 93% of all abortion cases are so called elective abortions. You may be able to make an argument in case of rape/incest or medical, but elective? Most pro-lifers, me included, are usually against all abortions, but we are willing to compromise and give you the options for abortion in case of rape, incest or medical.
@henrybrice86
@henrybrice86 Год назад
@@jonson856 Roe v Wade wasn't about abortion in cases of rape at all. She did at one point claim that she had been raped (and indeed recanted), but that was in 1983, a decade after Roe v Wade had been decided. The SCOTUS decision was about abortion in general, not about abortion in cases of rape. Oh, and she also admitted that she'd played the anti-abortion part because she was being paid to do so. More to the point, I reject the definition of financial or other personal reasons as "no reason whatsoever". Not wanting to have a baby is a *really good* reason not to have a baby. No baby should be born unwanted. No woman should be forced to carry a foetus to term against her own will. The vast majority of abortions - and literally *all* the abortions that you are calling elective - happen during the first trimester. When the foetus is a tiny cluster of cells about the size of a grain of rice, with no brain, no receptors to feel anything, much less pain. The so-called "heartbeat" that so many Republicans tout is, at that point, actually just an electrical pulse in some cells that will eventually become a heart. And thanks for being "willing" to give women rights over their own bodies after they've been raped, or if their life is literally in danger. *So* generous of you, really. It's also blatantly false in practice, because so many of the trigger laws now in place have no such exceptions, making your "generosity" completely and utterly meaningless. The fiction of woman who are five or more months pregnant, with a healthy baby, going and having an abortion just for the hell of it? It's a fiction. It doesn't happen. Ethical and legal guidelines that doctors and hospitals are already beholden to already stop them. American theocratists are claiming that they're legislating something that never actually happens, when actually what they're doing is raising America's already horrifically high maternal mortality rate. The US is the *only* advanced country in the world with a maternal mortality rate that is (a) on par with war-torn third world countries, and (b) RISING. Call yourself pro-life? Then do something about the very real women who are dying every year in the US because your pre-natal, natal and post-natal healthcare puts you to shame. Women are literally already dying because they are not getting the medical care they need due to those trigger laws. Women with cancer are being refused chemo because they are pregnant. Women with ectopic pregnancies are being forced to wait until it ruptures, which turns a totally standard procedure into a massive medical emergency, and which will likely destroy her fertility even if she survives. Women with already-dead foetuses in their wombs are being forced to carry the dead foetus in their womb until is starts to turn septic (again, creating massive medical risk), because otherwise they might be accused of murder. Of course, none of this changes the fact that the modern anti-abortion movement in the US was born out of a political movement that wanted to wield the votes of American Evangelicals to influency politics.
@inside_fighting
@inside_fighting Год назад
The problem with ambiguous and ever changing definitions of personhood is that those definitions have historically used to commit atrocities against people.. whether it be hitler with the jews, slavery, etc… Personhood, arguably, needs a strict definition with a very strong siding on the side of caution to avoid that abuse… Aka a “fetus isn’t a person because it’s not self aware”… according to current available psychological understanding neither is a 1 year old baby… As for the legality… that is a much more difficult question.
@lro324
@lro324 Год назад
@@Jawnwickk "anything that shares the genetic code with the rest of us" By your logic, a preserved heart of a dead organ donor has personhood? Not trying to be disrespectful. I just think this definition makes no sense.
@neoqwerty
@neoqwerty Год назад
"Not self-aware": there's actually science here, he doesn't mean common-language/philosophical "self-aware" (I.E. I think therefore I am), he means the biological processes of measurable "self-awareness"-- as in, response to stimuli and conscious thought relating to that awareness of what one's body feels. I haven't dived into this in a while so excuse my rustiness but: The fetus doesn't have pain transmittors (edit because wrong word) until I think 16 weeks, so it can't even have the most basic spinal-level reactions to instinctive pain that even an insect or jellyfish has until that point It doesn't have the brain structures for pain receptors and other chemical sensors that makes neurons fire until 20 to 22 weeks IIRC, so it can't even be conscious of the data its skin and nerves provide it until this point-- which is how science describes self-awareness, an awareness of one's physical self. Basically sentience (which is different from sapience, human-level intelligence).
@inside_fighting
@inside_fighting Год назад
@@neoqwerty the physiological standard for what you define as self awareness is 1 and a half years to two years. Using the same test we use in animals… mirror test. Prior to this age babies do not show an awareness of oneself. You are right about “pain” although defining a person based on their ability to feel pain is an odd ethical standard… there are people born with malfunctioning oak receptors who do not feel pain at any point… are they not people? Also we know full well that the fetus will very soon develop the ability to feel pain making them lore of a “person” by this standard than someone who never will…
@dahawk8574
@dahawk8574 5 лет назад
Well that video stopped way short. If we would like to be bold, then we could take the next step and point toward an obvious solution here. And instead of focusing on two sides of a debate, we could shine a spotlight on the obvious common ground between these positions: - Avoiding unwanted pregnancies. If both sides were to work together toward avoiding the situation in the first place, then we could stop wasting so much energy in this continual effort of pulling against each other, and we could start moving in the same direction toward actually solving the problem.
@dahawk8574
@dahawk8574 5 лет назад
​@No Dogma Mama, one reason why there is opposition amonst the Right against education is this thing that's been done of handing out free condoms in high school. And I myself would agree that this is not a great way to go about it. It actually encourages kids who would not otherwise be looking to have sex to maybe cross that line. The much smarter way would be to have condoms, Plan B, etc readily available at something like a vending machine. At a subsidized cost. So the cost is not zero. But the cost is likewise so low that money is not a barrier. Your comment is focused on reasons why both sides should not be working together. The strategy being advocated in the OP is to find common ground. Even someone who is so far Right that they push for Abstinence Education. The inclusive approach would be to incorporate Abstinence as a valid alternative. Teach children what their options are. Teach them the pitfalls that others have experienced, so they are much better equipped to avoid them. With just a bit of cooperation btwn Left & Right, we could realize dramatic reductions in Teen Pregnancy. And maybe even a significant rise in children seeing that marriage might be the best foundation for bringing new children into this world. Deliberately, instead of accidentally. Just among my siblings, the majority of them got into this accidental pregnancy situation. And as I saw it, we had all the education needed to make smart decisions. Yet that was not done, for the most part. Today with something like Plan B, there are effective ways for handling bad decisions. An option that avoids both unwanted pregnancy as well as avoiding abortion. Now imagine if Plan B were subsidized to the point of being readily affordable for high school children. So long as it was not abused as a form of 1st line birth control, then this would solve a huge percentage of the problem. And yes, there would be those on the Far Right who would oppose such a change. But my expectation is that this would be a slim minority. And this approach of working together instead of against each other has the potential of gaining traction. So much so to the point of potentially solving this issue entirely within one generation's time. We have the power to put the abortion issue behind us entirely. Nobody debates smallpox. That's a problem that's been solved. And abortion can be solved too. It can be radically reduced to the point where it becomes an issue that impacts less than 1% of the population.
@dahawk8574
@dahawk8574 5 лет назад
​@Dragon CR, your position is "I'm right. They're all wrong." And their position is "I'm right. You're wrong." Perhaps your choice of reply here is to voice your satisfaction in the many decades of stagnation which this standoff has produced. You get to go to sleep at night feeling confident in the side you have chosen in this moral crusade. ...even after it has been shown here that this battle is one that can be prevented instead of fought. I hope that at least at some level you have an awareness that if no one ever had an unwanted pregnancy, then abortion would not be an issue. We can imagine that people would still choose their theoretical sides. But each would be moot.
@dahawk8574
@dahawk8574 5 лет назад
Ok, so the point made in the original post was that it has been a decades-long effort with huge levels of time and energy invested in each side working against the other, when it could be a lot more fruitful to seek this common ground in a new effort to work with each other, cooperatively. But human beings are creatures of habit. We are so accustomed to holding tightly to our position, not unlike the monkey who is trapped only because of the stubborn refusal to let go.
@emzraline
@emzraline 5 лет назад
That's another topic entirely. This is about the ethics of abortion once a situation demands a decision between abortion or continuing pregnancy.
@mike4ty4
@mike4ty4 5 лет назад
Sure. And actually, many in the pro-choice camp would probably agree with this. However, then there come disagreements as to the methods involved. Hardline pro-prohibitionists (don't like "pro-life" - wrote another post here just now on this) very often are religiously-motivated and will insist on things like "abstinence only" sex-ed that have been _shown_ through _experience_ (i.e. _empirical evidence_ ) just to simply not work. Not that abstinence itself doesn't work - it does - but that the amount of self-denial required to actually _practice_ it is simply beyond the capacity of many. It's for the same reason that keeping weight off is hard. You're fighting some _very_ strong natural biological impulses and it's not a fight that you can "win", but you have to literally keep fighting forever. While pro-choiceists will generally be in favor of things like contraception, birth control, and other such items (although it should be pointed out that some of these are abortifacents, but _not all_ ). And this has a natural implication of allowing sex more freely. That said, it must also be pointed out there is no logical contradiction between teaching your kids that abstinence is a virtue if your religion believes that _and_ also teaching them how to use such implements properly in case they don't/can't keep it. And moreover, it's difficult when there's also an underlying undercurrent of sexism/patriarchy in all this. Whether anyone on the "pro-prohibition" camp _actually is_ or isn't coming from such, the fact of it as having been so much a part of culture and while at least in the west it has been diminished to an extent yet still hasn't thoroughly been eliminated, will always color and create suspicion and the need for accountability, that there may be at least in part a motivation to take or deflect responsibility away from men, e.g. with so many discussions about rape, levying it at the woman's feet _when she complains_ , i.e. "you shouldn't have dressed like a sl*t" (to put it bluntly), thus effectively telling her she should not be complaining or trying to seek justice for a very serious crime against her, even though such _is_ a criminal violation of her rights _regardless_ of whether that would or wouldn't have stopped it and thus she _always_ has the right to justice, I'd say.
@jakewalmsley9161
@jakewalmsley9161 5 лет назад
I get that abortion is controversial... But anyone who cares about the special needs population, should be very wary of the logic of arguments that equate "function" and personhood.
@georgertheexplorer4114
@georgertheexplorer4114 5 лет назад
Jake Walmsley fair point
@CrapZackGames
@CrapZackGames 5 лет назад
I agree
@TuberTugger
@TuberTugger 5 лет назад
Unless the special needs person you are thinking off has less function than a newborn, you're overthinking this. A newborn has enough function to be a person by current law. The function argument has to do with the brain dead or unborn. They aren't going around killing people under a certain IQ level. You've misunderstood the point.
@travcollier
@travcollier 5 лет назад
@@TuberTugger The classic slippery slope argument is indeed crap. The more difficult argument is about people who lose functions. People who become 'locked in' is a typical example to argue about.
@joshdeveaux6936
@joshdeveaux6936 5 лет назад
@@TuberTugger thats not accurate peopel have abortions when they realize their baby will have down syndrom its a common idea nowadays
@8698gil
@8698gil Год назад
I am pro-choice, but only to a certain point. In the first trimester, totally woman's choice. Late term abortions I do not generally agree with, unless it is for a medical reason. In any case, most women do not take abortions lightly at any stage of pregnancy. It is a difficult and traumatic choice for most women to make.
@berkah6240
@berkah6240 Год назад
💯
@shitlista4283
@shitlista4283 Год назад
Late-term abortions ARE FOR MEDICAL REASONS ONLY!
@olgamclaughlin9478
@olgamclaughlin9478 Год назад
“Late term abortions” are not even a thing. It’s not even a medical term. If someone is getting a medical procedure(abortion) done LATER IN PREGNANCY it’s to either save a mother’s life or to terminate a pregnancy when a fetus has severe genetical abnormalities and will not survive. It’s a traumatic experience for mothers and families because these people WANTED these pregnancies. If both, the mother and the child are perfectly healthy then the only thing that’s happening after the point of viability is called birth. Not to mention that we have almost 1 million miscarriages happening every year in the US. Many are partial, meaning women need medical help passing it. This help IS abortion and now doctors are hesitant to even perform these unless a woman is “actively dying” because in some cases a fetal cardiac activity can still be detected and in many states that’s a criminal charge…even though it won’t survive… Politicians have no business writing laws about healthcare without medical education.
@oliviawarren4177
@oliviawarren4177 Год назад
@@olgamclaughlin9478 exactly. How are people STILL this dense with the internet at their fingertips? Christ
@DivineLightPaladin
@DivineLightPaladin Год назад
Good thing no one decides to suffer through pregnancy for 8 months only to go "nah nevermind don't want it, just kill it". Literally no one would be that flippant about something that serious happening in their body unless they were severely mentally unwell, on drugs, etc. In which case that needs to be weighed and considered as well, since people in the grip of addiction or the shock of trauma tend to not make great judgments in the first place since they aren't mentally/ rationally "there" to even make the decision.
@christopheryang6318
@christopheryang6318 Год назад
It's a sensitive topic but no matter how I look at it, I am for right to choose. I'm not here to cast judgement. Every woman has their own unique situation and reason and I don't think the government should have the power to decide if a woman should or should not have a baby.
@feanedhell
@feanedhell Год назад
The thought experiment is valid. It doesn’t matter how you got hooked to the machine, consent is an ongoing thing that can be revoked at any time. If i chose to be hooked, and then later change my mind, you cannot stop me from unhooking myself. Bodily autonomy is absolute. You can’t even take organs from a corpse without consent, and a corpse is no longer a person.
@RB-rd6xh
@RB-rd6xh Год назад
You could say that every time you consent to having sex you consent to the possibility of getting pregnant though
@feanedhell
@feanedhell Год назад
@@RB-rd6xh and you would be wrong.
@RB-rd6xh
@RB-rd6xh Год назад
@@feanedhell why? Everyone knows thats becoming pregnant is a possible and sometimes likely consequence of sex, especially if no contraception is used …?
@feanedhell
@feanedhell Год назад
@@RB-rd6xh still doesn’t mean you lose your bodily autonomy. It is still absolute. No one has the right to use your body. Ever. If you take an action that has a 100% chance of leaving you brain dead but all your organs viable, i still wouldn’t have the right to use those organs if you didn’t consent to it. It’s not a hard concept.
@RB-rd6xh
@RB-rd6xh Год назад
@@feanedhell bodily autonomy has never been absolute, you can’t use your body to shoot another person or to snort cocaine (I’m not 100% sure where I stand on abortion yet, but just presenting the counter arguments)
@Classic_H_Radio
@Classic_H_Radio 5 лет назад
i love that he discusses the questions, but doesn't draw any end-all conclusions. Very well done.
@L16htW4rr10r
@L16htW4rr10r 5 лет назад
To be fair, its hard to draw a conclusion on an answer with no conclusive answers.
@MrBeen992
@MrBeen992 Год назад
On the contrary, it is ceystal clear that he supports at least 2 weeks abortions
@truthbetold1855
@truthbetold1855 Год назад
@@L16htW4rr10r Its hard when you are completely arguing a point intentionally to be deceitful. We don't call it persocide. We call it homicide.. because "personhood" isn't even defined, but HUMAN is, so that's where the line should be drawn. It's a completely false argument. It's like me saying "is the earth flat" and me saying, well happiness isn't really known.. so if I define the shape of the earth by happiness of the people.. its really hard to define.
@danieldickson8591
@danieldickson8591 Год назад
This is what education should be about, at least after childhood. Give people all the relevant information, let them decide their positions for themselves. Do this early in the education process, so students learn to evaluate what they're being told critically.
@KeyFreak2301
@KeyFreak2301 Год назад
@@truthbetold1855 now you’re mixing up semantics with definitions. What human life is, is also not a clear definition. Scientifically speaking, every cell in you body could be defined as human life, so brushing your teeth would be homicide as well. By other definitions a fertilized egg cell could be called human life, so if you are sexually active as a woman, there are constantly humans dying inside you out of natural reasons (most fertilized ovums fail to implant into the uterus and die off). We also force that process with contraceptives like the pill or the intrauterine contraceptives. Perhaps “human life” is not a good wording to base your arguments upon, if you intend to be logically congruent. They also made a pretty clear argument for that in the video which you somehow ignore by arguing semantics … it’s kind of annoying tbh.
@EMAngel2718
@EMAngel2718 Год назад
A million people have said this already but I appreciate how this articulates the complexity of the issue
@GregPentecost
@GregPentecost Год назад
Thank you for sharing to complexities of this issue. It hasn't been apparent for the past 50+ years.
@FPOAK
@FPOAK 7 лет назад
The top comments here illustrate the problem with the political abortion debate: "Abortion is homicide." "Womans body, womans choice." You're not going to get anywhere by just asserting your position as assumed fact and talking past each other. You have to argue at the point of contention, like the ethical issues the video addresses.
@clinthazzard7397
@clinthazzard7397 Год назад
I kill ants on sight
@derek96720
@derek96720 Год назад
@@Cha4k Is it murder to kill someone that is braindead?
@lilmupp875
@lilmupp875 Год назад
@@derek96720 yes, yes it is. If u happen to find a brain dead person and then do anything to kill them, its murder. A braindead person on life support being unplugged is very sad, but its not murder
@derek96720
@derek96720 Год назад
@@lilmupp875 why not?
@MRJABERable
@MRJABERable 4 года назад
Heard this argument in philosophy 101 course. Amazes me how many people don't even make it this far with critical thinking.
@MrBeen992
@MrBeen992 Год назад
WHAT ARGUMENT ? THE VIOLINIST ONE ? IS BOGUS
@jcf2322
@jcf2322 Год назад
@@MrBeen992 How is it bogus? If the developing fetus is just another person, you should be able to swap out it and the mother for any other person and put them in a lifesaving situation and ask the same fundamental question: if you freely exercising your right to bodily autonomy would result in the death of another person, should you be prohibited from doing that? Most people would say no, but for abortion the anti-choice groups elevates the developing fetus (which I would argue only passes the "is a person" test for argument's sake) to something greater than a person, for some reason entitled to even more rights than any other person, just because it hasn't been birthed yet. Why?
@truthbetold1855
@truthbetold1855 Год назад
@@jcf2322 The "person" argument is a false issue.. we call it HOMICIDE, NOT PERSOCIDE. Bodily autonomy is also an asinine stance. I don't have the right to use my hands to choke you to death, and my hands are clearly part of my body. Why am I not allowed bodily autonomy to wrap my hands where I want them wrapped and squeeze until I feel better? It's all just like Hitler dehumanizing Jews so he felt better.
@truthbetold1855
@truthbetold1855 Год назад
@@jcf2322Also, imagine a scenario where I live in a fireproof house.. and it's my house, and I invite a friend in to that house (having sex, invites that human inside your house). Then a raging fire outside surrounds the house.. and I know that fire will last 9 months. I know we can both survive in this house (we can talk about the ethics if we MAY NOT both survive as well) but I decide I want to be alone and it's my house so I PUSH the person out into the fire. Did I kill them? Did I murder them? What would need to be the justification for pushing something into certain death that I invited in, for my "home" autonomy?
@mikelewicki1557
@mikelewicki1557 Год назад
@@truthbetold1855 let’s take this up a notch. You keep this friend in your house. You do not have the resources to support this friend and now he is starving and bitter. When he leaves your house he is an angry, twisted person because you were not able to care for him. He becomes Hitler. Would you push this person out of your house into the fire knowing that if you didn’t he would have a terrible life and probably pass on that trauma to others, potentially killing millions of people?
@CoreyLennox
@CoreyLennox Год назад
Yeah because questioning, qualifying, and gatekeeping someone’s personhood has always ended “fantastically”. Try defending this position without sounding like a slaveholder or a Nazi. “They’re not really ‘people’”. “They don’t have feelings” “Their rights are lesser than these other people’s rights”. None of it leads anywhere good. What’s also missing from this video, is the bar we have as a society for allowing killing is a fairly high bar that doesn’t even necessarily depend on personhood. You can’t go around murdering dogs just because they’re not people. In other words, we don’t even have to make a proof positive case for “personhood” to debunk the idea there’s some blanket right we have to kill living things with no restrictions other than simply because we choose to, which is ridiculous on its face.
@crazykhespar8487
@crazykhespar8487 Год назад
Here's a fun thought experiment: You and your assistant work in a stem-cell research laboratory that is 5 stories tall. A fire breaks out in the room you keep frozen embryos in, and your assistant is trapped in that room same room, but neither side can reach the other. You have time to save your assistant, or time to save the embryos, not both. Saving at least 2 Embryos should have greater value than just your assistant, right? Just a simple example of the trolley problem, right? Or is it something that would potentially have you tried as a murderer through negligence? Can you converse with the embryos afterwards about that awful event?
@nathaneyring4858
@nathaneyring4858 5 лет назад
Video: Here is a long list of relevant and very complex concerns Comments: The real issue is this one very simple idea, so there's your answer
@jeremiahnoar7504
@jeremiahnoar7504 5 лет назад
poeple on the pro-choice side. want it to complex. as long as it's complex, women can still have abortions when ever they want. but in truth, the answer has always been simple.
@nathaneyring4858
@nathaneyring4858 5 лет назад
@@jeremiahnoar7504 I am pro-life, but there are some complications even if you can give your answer simply. What about cases of incest/rape? What about cases where the health of the mother is at risk? Or cases where there are twins/triplets and there are potentially major health care to the children where it is likely all will die if no action is taken? Beyond that what about the cases of women in absolutely horrible circumstances? Even if you say that abortion is still inexcusably wrong, it also doesn't change how absolutely life-crushing pregnancy can be. A simple answer does not make it for an emotionally simple situation if you are at all empathizing with those in the situation. The lives of the women and sometimes girls matter and can be very negatively impacted, and that at least has to be considered independent of what policy is executed.
@Llynnyia
@Llynnyia 5 лет назад
@@nathaneyring4858 thank you
@damiannelson9820
@damiannelson9820 5 лет назад
Jeremiah Noar What is the simple answer?
@Zalamandar
@Zalamandar 5 лет назад
Video: Colour vision Comments: Black and white vision
@gekkanshounen5112
@gekkanshounen5112 7 лет назад
Regardless of the doubtlessly controversial conclusions to be drawn, this was a really good presentation on the topic with a very articulate speaker.
@slamrock17
@slamrock17 5 лет назад
Actually he glazes over many nuances about the real abortion debate and instead confuses with tangents and unrelated thought experiments. Personhood is not related to the choice of a mother to abort said person. I am looking for the thoughts of a true bioethicist on why a clump of cells with a unique genetic code is not a person. I am trying to affirm my belief that a human life starts with experience of brainwaves but recent arguments with a life at conception believer have made me doubt my ideology. I hope i can disprove life at conception because i have provided women with "morning after pills" and if i am wrong i have actually helped end a human life.
@BillyBob-qk6vy
@BillyBob-qk6vy 5 лет назад
@@slamrock17 Just think of it this way. If you enable people to abort their children then you would have been aborted. Would you still want that to be allowed? Im pretty sure all of the babies that got aborted, after being aborted, if they were still alive would be anti abortionists. Aparantly unless im mistakened there is a 50% chance that you would be aborted if born today. Would you want to take that chance if you were born today? Im sure that the answer to that is universally no. So then why should we let people abort their babies unless they are themselves in danger?
@johnrmcclure1
@johnrmcclure1 5 лет назад
Articulate sophist.
@harmonicpsyche8313
@harmonicpsyche8313 5 лет назад
@@slamrock17 A clump of cells with a unique genetic code is not a person unless it can think and feel. A being should be given moral and legal rights only if it can think about, care about, or make decisions based on those rights. So every self-aware sentient being should have the moral and legal rights of a person, and nothing else. Since no fetus is self-aware or sentient at, say, 20 weeks since conception, no 20-week-old fetus is a person yet. Defining a person based on self-aware sentience instead of "human-ness" recognizes non-person humans, and has the additional advantage of recognizing non-human persons. If "human" and "person" are the same, then God, angels, Spock, and Commander Data are not people. And if every human is a person, then a human stem cell cluster and a corpse that has been rotting in the ground for 30 years are both people with the right to vote. But that is absurd.
@slamrock17
@slamrock17 5 лет назад
@@harmonicpsyche8313 You say "A being should be given moral and legal rights only if it can think about, care about, or make decisions based on those rights." This statement is not backed up by any thought theory, or scientific fact on your end. The standard for applying compassion is the human experience not sentience. If we apply your standard for a "being" to have rights it would be impossible for infants, the brain dead, and coma sufferers, to have rights. I am not arriving at this conclusion because of a religion, unless you consider science a religion
@Leto2ndAtreides
@Leto2ndAtreides Год назад
The ultimate problem is that it's an individual / societal judgment whether or not you consider the fetus a person, or whether you consider a person in that situation as having the right to be protected even if it is against the mother's will and interests. If you subtract religion, you have very little basis for a specific answer. Or at least for thinking that your answer is much more important than someone else's. But religion... Creates the impression that there may be one correct value judgment there.
@michaezell4607
@michaezell4607 Год назад
The problem with the court's ruling is that the justices violated the first ammendment separation of church and state protections which prohibit the government from enacting laws favoring any one religion over another. Republicans DON'T give a damn about fetuses other than using them to gain election time votes from the bible thumpers that make up their core voting base alongside the NRA gun nuts. It wasn't until the late 70s that evangelicals began objecting to abortion rights as a front for their true crusade which was the rejection of forced integration of parochial schools. These groups KNEW that nobody would rally to their racist cause so they conveniently settled on abortion rights and women's rights in general as a sort of consolation prize.....It's akin to the idea of the palastinians real hatred of israel and the birth of the jihadist movement stems from a real estate battle over territory(a battle that nobody would really support) to something more palletable to them like a war over who's bronze age skydaddy is better.
@neoqwerty
@neoqwerty Год назад
The thing that frustrates me is that usually it's the Abrahamic religions that argue that. And having actually read through the parts concerning life and soul because I'm a writer and I needed the theological answer for my metaphysics: Abrahamic doctrine says the soul/life comes with first breath, just like how life and soul was breathed into Adam and was his literal first breath. The idea that souls enter at conception is Aristotellian philosophy that became pop-pseudoscience the same way Dante Allighieri and John Milton's FANFICS of the Bible got accepted as pop-religion and Facts when... no, no they were not.
@LoshYT
@LoshYT Год назад
This is absolutely one of the most spot on comments I’ve read in a long time
@PanthereaLeonis
@PanthereaLeonis Год назад
I very much appreciate that there was no definitive answer given! Just a breakdown of how things might work. The answer, like most lawyers like to say, is: "It's complicated." I don't feel like I have a clearer understanding of what is a good choice, but I have a clearer understanding of the issue, and that is worth a lot more than an answer!
@suspendedhatch
@suspendedhatch 7 лет назад
Prohibiting abortion does not end the occurrence of abortion, nor is it the best way to reduce the amount of abortions that occur. Both sides of the argument agree that less abortions would be a good thing. They should then focus all their efforts on this common ground instead of fighting each over idealism. Improving conditions for women and children vastly reduces the number of abortions and it also improves the lives of fetuses who have grown up.
@toftail
@toftail 5 лет назад
I totally agree but the part wich people have trouble with is if its morally right to regulate and make legal something that goes against their values. I think is a tougher question than people think. Sometimes abortion seems like the only and best option, and many activists seem to push people to think that. But in a lot of cases is not 100% necessary, and economical/psychological help is enough. But if you think well, maybe we should provide that kind of help before doing an abortion right away, but time passes by...and I dont think killing an 8 month baby is just right if none of the other options work. Its hard. Idk
@cosmickirby4793
@cosmickirby4793 5 лет назад
Prohibiting murder, use of drugs, j walking and other crimes does not end the occurrence either. That doesn’t mean we make them all legal because we can’t completely stop the crimes from being committed. We make them illegal to punish those who do them because it is wrong plain and simple
@Earthling108
@Earthling108 5 лет назад
@@cosmickirby4793 Does not end but it does reduce. However, would you be okay with a woman being jailed for having an abortion? Also keeping it illegal can result in pregnant women taking matters into their own hands, developing sepsis, and dying thereby both a child and a mother being killed.
@cosmickirby4793
@cosmickirby4793 5 лет назад
ShiShi108 1% of ALL abortions are done in the United States in the case of rape, incest and the baby is a threat to the mother’s live. Abortions killed more people than the holocaust did if you were to multiply the number of people dying in the holocaust by SIX. Contraceptives have a 99% effect rate. Are you are telling me that these women had no other choice but to abort? I would gladly jail ANY women who believes in aborting a child. The number of abortions done should not be so damn high if we got contraceptives with a 99% effect rate, birth control, condoms, and if you want to be on the safe side sterilize yourself. You don’t even have to abort the baby if you do not WANT it. Adoption centers are all around the place. Give it to a trusted friend we have god fathers and mothers for crying out loud. most abortions end up making the women sterile, giving them infections and doing other harmful things to their bodies that at even times KILLED some people. So really there is no excuse for being irresponsible. All abortions really is a women telling me That they was not responsible enough to take preventive measures to ensure they weren’t going to have a baby, They don’t want the responsibility of a child so They are going to the most drastic thing and rip it’s body to pieces
@cosmickirby4793
@cosmickirby4793 5 лет назад
Alida Green So just because it’s not most women becomes sterile, but some women become sterile, abortions becomes better? legal abortions are not that much different then back than. Back then they didn’t have the technology to detect pregnancy earlier, so a lot of the illegal abortions are done during the third trimester. Which is where the fetus has actual body parts like limbs. The doctor in a legal abortion clinic uses a tool that clamps onto any body part it can find and literally rips it out piece by piece. But they can’t see where the baby is so they have to poke around and find it. During this stage the doctor can damage the inside of the women to the point they are sterilized permanently if they are not to careful. Not only that the women can get infections from the damage and die. They can also get very sick if they leave any parts of the now dead baby inside. This is not that much different than going into an ally way and finding a dude with a coat hanger in the 60’s. It’s not more safe, an abortion clinic is not a hospital, if they mess up the procedure and your bleeding out, you are good as dead. Those people are “trained” to end lives not save them.
@lifecloud2
@lifecloud2 Год назад
Thank you. This reinforces my believe that this type of choice ought to be worked out with a medical professional on a case-by-case basis. Making a "one size fits all" law that regulates what a woman can or can't do is a restriction of freedom, not an individualized determination or consideration of ethics and morals. A woman might conclude that abortion is not the best course; but she should still have that choice so that if she decides to terminate the pregnancy it can be done safely. Just because we didn't have safe abortion options in the mid-1800s, doesn't mean that this should pertain to all women forever after. We also didn't have vasectomies or face lifts or ... well, almost any safe surgical procedures.
@unnamed4063
@unnamed4063 Год назад
In that case women who want an abortion will just look for a doctor who is prochoice and will let any woman have an abortion. that just makes it legal in all cases. there has to be a legal framework with cases in which it is totally illegal and cases where it may be permitted.
@deirdremorris9234
@deirdremorris9234 Год назад
@@unnamed4063 Why? If you dont know whats happening in anothers body, what is it to you? How does one females abortion affect you?
@unnamed4063
@unnamed4063 Год назад
@@deirdremorris9234 robberies don't affect me, slavery doesn't affect me, should those be legal too?
@deirdremorris9234
@deirdremorris9234 Год назад
@@unnamed4063 Goodness. I apologize. I totally misread the last part of your comment! (Still have a bit of covid brain fog!)
@unnamed4063
@unnamed4063 Год назад
@@deirdremorris9234 all good.
@bananathewolf5589
@bananathewolf5589 Год назад
i love how he gives no personal input, simply states the facts of the different views. personally, i'd say a fetus, while having human dna and growing into one, is not physically a human until it's developed a brain. It has no ability to think or feel until it has a brain. Until there is a brain, it's just cells with a code on how to grow based on its dna. And the argument "if you leave it there it will become a baby" doesn't count and is completely invalid, because that logic could be used in other scenerios. "Yes, she's a child now, Your Honor. But if you leave her there, she'll become and adult so she's an adult" The potential for something doesn't mean it will or should. We all have potential to be murderers, but most of us dont wanna be and those who do, have something wrong with them. A mother can't go around saying "Timmy is gonna be a doctor, you should tell him your symptoms, im sure it'll be just fine. and cheaper than a liscenced doctor" because Timmy isnt a doctor, and might not be one ever. Potential is not enough reason for so many things. just thought of a counter argument that im gonna rebuttle before someone says it the argument is "If potential isnt justification, then maybe troubling kids shouldnt be put into therapy because they might become criminally violent in the future" that's an entirely different case. If a child is put into therapy to prevent real issues in the future, it's because that child is showing early signs of psychopathic behavior. Which is different from potential, because the child is actively on that path. As an example lets use Timmy again. lets say Timmy is now in med school. Someone could ask him about their symptoms just to give him practice and maybe get a better idea of what to tell a proper doctor if needed. But they should not rely on his every word because he is only on the path, not crossed the finish line. Just as our little troubled friend might not have done anything criminal yet, and should not be sent to Juvenile Detention or Prison just because they're showing signs and on the path. With proper intervention, they could find better ways to focus their violent tendencies.
@SmittenandBitten
@SmittenandBitten Год назад
The flaw with ur logic is that your potential to be something (a murderer in your case), does not take away a life of something else. In essence, the consequences are very different. The potential to be a person or the potential to be a murderer is very different. Why? Because the fetus becoming a person is inevitable, i am sure you can't disagree with that. Like this video has mentioned there is natural course it takes to become a person. Unless you want to argue that you, yes you, are on a natural course to becoming a murderer, i am gonna call out your the fallacy in your opinion and thought process. Edit: op edited so my answer doesn't make sense anymore. But any way potential and "actively on that path" is different? Yes? Actively on that path is having even MORE potential to be what it is. So I don't get the argument at all. Fallacious.
@yuaelt
@yuaelt Год назад
Although I essentially agree with you, I don't think this is as simple as you paint it to be. Let me play the proverbial devil's advocate for a moment: you say a fetus is not a person (let me stick to the term used in the video) until it has a brain. But when does that happen exactly? A brain starts developing around the third week of pregnancy (when most women, unless they're trying to get pregnant, may not even realise their period is late) and won't be fully developed until the kid is well into their 20s. Does it mean a child is not a person? Of course not. Then does it mean a newborn's brain is "good enough" even though it's not fully developed? If we say yes, then what about one that's going to be born tomorrow? Or in a week, a month? The line is much more blurry than that between being a kid who likes biology, a med student and an actual doctor. Now, we can (and I'm sure we both do) argue that modern neuroscience is much better at drawing that line than it was in the 70s, and we know for a fact that until well into the second trimester (I think 23rd week or so?), even though a fetus might have arms and legs and look like a little human on an USG image, its brain shows about as much coherent activity as that of brain-dead potential organ donor. But here our opponent might argue that, unlike brain-dead patient, this fetus keeps developing and will 'wake up' soon. Would you, they'd ask, pull a plug on a coma patient if a doctor tells you they will wake up in 3 weeks? Probably not, and you typically get much less certainty with coma patients than with gestating fetuses. So we're sort of back to square one, with people debating over this issue for years on years. For me personally, the one thing that changes the perspective is what the video mentioned towards the end: a woman is not a walking life-support system. She is her own person, whose personhood doesn't need to be discussed, it's a fact. I believe this is what the violinist experiment is meant to showcase: that the dillema we're facing is that of if and when the fetus becomes enough of a person to be considered more important than the harm it is causing to its carrier, and should we make the carrier criminally responsible for not wanting to sacrifice herself. And yet, many 'citizen-since-conception' opinions completely ignore that fact, and discuss the fetus as if it was just sitting somewhere in the void, and the woman wanting to abort pregnancy was interested in harming it.
@kelseykanabus8243
@kelseykanabus8243 Год назад
There's a few things about this argument that don't make sense. There are plenty of humans without brains, whether due to a genetic abnormality or an injury or if the brain isn't fully developed. The brain isn't fully developed until a human is around 25 years old. The brain starts developing at the very beginning of the pregnancy. You could say that a human isn't a person without a brain, which comes with its own set of inconsistencies, but that would make more sense. A human doesn't cease to be a human because it's missing a part. Likewise, the argument of potential is a bit flawed. Zygote, embryo, fetus, infant, baby, toddler, child, teenager, adult, senior- these are all stages of development. Child vs adult, different stages of development. A fetus won't become a human (because it already is one), it will just move through developmental stages as we all do. An embryo won't *become* a human, it *is* a human. It has human DNA, human parents, and if left alone will develop into a fetus, then infant, then toddler, then child, etc.. Biologically, scientifically, this is true, and not debatable.
@superjlk_9538
@superjlk_9538 Год назад
It is a human, the word you’re looking for is “personhood”. Human is referring to the species. If brain activity determines personhood, are brain dead patients no longer people?
@superjlk_9538
@superjlk_9538 Год назад
@@yuaelt if we operate with that view, then women would be allowed to abort up until induced birth since they’re still a walking life support. Does that mean a mother should be allowed to abort her child at 20 weeks when it is almost at the point of viability and has many human features? We cannot operate solely on this view otherwise abortion would be unrestricted until birth. And the mother could refuse induced birth as well since it’s still her fetus that she has put on life support.
@alp2610
@alp2610 Год назад
Even if a person, Why does any person have the right to use the woman’s body without continuous consent for 9 months and cause pain/suffering/health complications? It violates bodily autonomy. We don’t force people to donate organs or give blood even though it saves lives- bes cause it violates bodily autonomy.
@ahuman5772
@ahuman5772 Год назад
Exactly. I think discussing whether it is a person or not is a distraction. It implies that if it is a person, then they are allowed to use someone else's body without permission. My friend was able to stop a blood donation half way through because they were feeling sick. The person who would've received the blood is definitely a person. I guess that means my friend should have had their blood forcibly drained? No one else is allowed to use someone else's body, even if they need it to stay alive. It seems like some people think that the fetus is more of a person than the rest of us, or that the pregnant person is not a person anymore, just an incubator.
@jimmyloughnan9656
@jimmyloughnan9656 Год назад
No one BORN has the right to use a woman’s body without consent. That unborn child had no choice in being conceived. It’s reasonable to expect a woman to live with nine months of temporary inconvenience when the only alternative is killing an unborn child.
@EragonShadeslayer
@EragonShadeslayer Год назад
The woman is the one that voluntarily caused this to happen. Rape is a separate story and exceptions can be made for it. Rapes account for less than 1% of abortions (a statistic by Guttmacher, a pro-choice organization). In the vast majority of cases, it was just a woman weighing whether having sex is worth the risk of having a child, deciding it is, and then, oh no, she was unlucky, she had a child. Now she should be responsible and not run away from her actions. She caused this baby to need her. Let's say that you like to throw big rocks into the sky or something. You enjoy it a lot, it's a habit of yours to do it. Well, one day one of those rocks hits someone right in the head and they are hospitalized at risk of death. Now here comes the violinist thing. You are the only one that can save this person, and you have to stay helping them for 9 months. During these 9 months you have much more bodily autonomy than someone permanently hooked up to a hospital bed (you can move around for much of the time), but for much of your day you're in extreme discomfort and have to stay in one place. This situation is still a lot harder than an actual pregnancy but whatever. Should you be legally obligated to save this person? Of course! You caused this situation to happen! You knew that throwing rocks into the air could result with this.
@EragonShadeslayer
@EragonShadeslayer Год назад
​@@ahuman5772 The "incubator" in question is what is causing someone to need an organ or blood donation. It's not like it's some random lottery and you got picked. No, you knowingly took a risk. Besides, the uterus's sole use is to be an "incubator." (You people love making motherhood sound like the worst thing that could happen to a person lol but whatever). Your blood and your organs have many uses, and none of them are "donate it to another person."
@Dalila-ms8eh
@Dalila-ms8eh Год назад
@@EragonShadeslayer A lot of rape cases really arent easy to prove.
@TaticalDuD
@TaticalDuD 5 лет назад
These comments arnt that bad... *scrolls down even further*
@joshdeveaux6936
@joshdeveaux6936 5 лет назад
Most of the comments are something simple anf generic very much like yours actually
@TaticalDuD
@TaticalDuD 5 лет назад
@@joshdeveaux6936 and*
@joshdeveaux6936
@joshdeveaux6936 5 лет назад
@@TaticalDuD ok
@peterkuzmin8624
@peterkuzmin8624 Год назад
I do know this, religious beliefs should not be used to weigh in on any legal issue especially this one
@annettewalker9546
@annettewalker9546 Год назад
I remember learning about all these ideas regarding what necessitates "personhood" in my intro to metaphysics in university. We used many examples to work out these ideas as a class, and also read Mary Shelley's Frankenstein along side the course readings to apply these concepts to. Was a very interesting and enlightening class. I highly recommend that anyone who enjoys this video to study more philosophy, whether that's reading, watching videos or whatever medium you prefer.
@ft4903
@ft4903 Год назад
Truuuuu
@morganrobinson2436
@morganrobinson2436 Год назад
Abortion is not only a moral and ethical conundrum, a lot of emotions also hinge on it making it much harder to actually see both sides evenly. I am adopted,so already my heart and mind wish for children to be given a chance to live and to be provided homes where they will be loved and cared for. My biological mother also attempted to abort me, which clearly I survived. Little girl me asks why my value was so little, that I had no right to life. I will never be able to see abortion from a side of Supporting it. Simply because I can’t separate myself from the trauma of surviving a mother who wanted me gone. That being said, this is a very personal reason, and one that only drives me because I was directly affected by it.
@berkah6240
@berkah6240 Год назад
Similar story here, my mother was adopted. Myself and my children wouldn't exist if abortion had been easier and more accepted back then. I feel the same way about abortion, at least when it comes to second and third trimester abortions. I think a well developed fetus has a earned a right to protection from undue harm.
@TheChlozie
@TheChlozie Год назад
I'm so sorry you went through that 💜
@theuncappedneedleyouforgot2664
Hello Morgan Robinson. Thank you for sharing your experience. I am taking an ethics class and would love to interview you. Is there any possibility we could speak on discord? Wishing you the best.
@morganrobinson2436
@morganrobinson2436 Год назад
@@theuncappedneedleyouforgot2664 I would certainly be amicable about an interview! I think not only is it important to hear the ‘other side of the story’ with matters of ethics like abortion. The more stories and experiences we hear from either side, I think the more compassionate and understanding we may become as a country for either choice.
@ptgannon1
@ptgannon1 Год назад
I think this discussion overlooks a huge part of the issue. The people most active in protesting abortion are Christians, and if you ask them what makes one a human person, the answer will be that we have souls. Animals don't. That's why it's OK to kill millions of animals on an ongoing basis; they don't have an eternal soul. And of course, they believe that ensoulment occurs at conception, despite the bible saying otherwise. If you ask them what happens to these souls, almost universally, they will insist that these souls go straight to Heaven and eternal bliss. Hallelujah, aren't we all supposed to be working toward that? If one believes this, however, why stop abortion? Now the infants are born unwanted and often into difficult circumstances. Now they must face Matthew's wide path to destruction and narrow gate to salvation that few achieve, now probably less than half of them will end up believing the right thing, and a whole bunch of souls will be moved from God's scorecard to Satan's. There was a lot of philosophical content in this presentation, but it's way over the head of a lot of the anti-abortion crowd. They believe in souls. What they don't do, is take the time to consider the eternal consequences of those souls. They call others murderers and claim to give the infant a chance to live a short life of struggle and suffering, but who would trade that for an eternity of screaming torment because they failed to believe the right thing?
@you-have-a-hand-in-your
@you-have-a-hand-in-your Год назад
You nailed it. It's religious tyranny plain simple. As an atheist I find their attempts at control to be at odds with my American right to freedom from religion.
@thesecondYouTube
@thesecondYouTube Год назад
I'm a very spiritual person who believes in souls but I don't see the point of forcing people to live miserable lives. Aborted children are not suffering and are back in heaven. I would love for abortions to be restricted and the children looked after by the state but unfortunately most of the people who want to restrict abortions don't want to pay for the higher taxes needed or at least making sure that the billionaire corporations pay their way.
@ptgannon1
@ptgannon1 Год назад
@@thesecondRU-vid so 100% of all aborted infants go to Heaven, regardless of the religion or lack thereof, of the parents, right? What happens if you get your way, and abortion is restricted (which is exactly what's happening as we speak)? Now those infants who would have gone straight to Heaven and eternal bliss will be born unwanted and often into the difficult circumstances that you acknowledge. Now that they are here, they have to throw the salvation dice like the rest of us. Their path from the starting line to the winner's circle without running the race is stripped away from them. As they face Matthew's wide path to destruction and narrow gate to salvation that few achieve, they can only hope they believe the right things about the right god. If we look at the beliefs of most anti-abortion Christians, it's clear that many of those born to a few short decades of struggle and suffering here, are not going to grow up believing the right thing according to these same Christians, and those souls will end up in an eternity of screaming torment. How has their condition improved? There is no way that 100% of them are going to end up in Heaven where they'd be if left alone, right? I'm going to guess the majority of them are going to end up in Hell, according to common Christian beliefs. Let them live a short life measured in decades, and weigh that against an eternity of screaming torment. Why don't the eternal consequences matter? Why are they never discussed by Christians who oppose abortion? And, what about the end result, which moves souls from God's scorecard to Satan's?
@adenosinetriphosphate6167
@adenosinetriphosphate6167 Год назад
@@you-have-a-hand-in-your and how do you address the secular argument that the unborn deserve the right to life simply because they're human beings? tbh i've never heard someone say that a soul makes someone a person in the abortion debate. most arguments i've heard against abortion are secular and are very logical actually
@you-have-a-hand-in-your
@you-have-a-hand-in-your Год назад
@@adenosinetriphosphate6167 Point me to that logical secular argument. I've found that even when someone *thinks* they are making a secular or "scientific" argument it is still rooted in a fundamentally religious understanding of life. Where do you draw the line at who is "unborn"? Do the "unborn" include those eggs fertilized in a lab, or just in another human body? Do the "unborn" include those whose life was prevented because of a piece of latex or a pill? Why does "life" not include pre-fertilized living organisms like sperm? Is life not also microscopic? If "life" is so sacred why do we not hold dear the existence of non-human animals? Are they not alive? Right... but they have no "soul." Science says life is a continuation, not a single moment or spark or "fertilization" in this case. To say otherwise is an argument rooted in religious dogma.
@luadiva
@luadiva Год назад
Mentioned elsewhere on YT is the distinction made by an OB/Gyn who articulated it so clearly: we cannot give a fetus rights that no other person has; we cannot force a person to use his/her body to keep another body alive, without his/her expressed and ongoing consent.
@iwaslikeameliooo
@iwaslikeameliooo Год назад
Parents are expected to keep their children alive though, regardless of if they want to be a parent or not. The challenge is determining what changes on the day the baby is born.
@JorgeGomez-kt3oq
@JorgeGomez-kt3oq Год назад
Not saying it is my position but what if I take consent for sex as a consent for pregnancy? Then the without the consent argumento would be invalid
@ScorpionClaws789
@ScorpionClaws789 Год назад
@@JorgeGomez-kt3oq Consent can be revoked at any time.
@ScorpionClaws789
@ScorpionClaws789 Год назад
@@iwaslikeameliooo Because once it's out of the body, it's no longer an argument of bodily autonomy. You can only consent to having a dependent as long as there is a choice. If there wasn't an option for people to take should they not want a dependent, adoption, there would be a lot of women abandoning children they couldn't care for, and frankly, I couldn't blame them.
@monkelifter
@monkelifter Год назад
@@ScorpionClaws789 You know that sex is a reproductive process and yet you act like the victim, when you get what you asked for. Don't want kids? Don't have sex.
@kevins6732
@kevins6732 Год назад
As a student of philosophy I think this approach is very good but one must remember that the philosophical part of arguments is often a small part. One debate surrounding abortion is this one, the other one is how things would work in the real world and evaluating policy decisions. That’s a different question, and probably the far more important question. Not to say that this is pointless but in creating this structure of ideas we are just attempting to create an idea connected to abortion which makes abortion okay or not ok in the real world.
@drsusredfish
@drsusredfish Год назад
02:13 "excluding animals" who cares if it excludes animals. Human + Living is good enough to be considered a person. Why was that thought about excluding animals even entertained?
@CryptoClass
@CryptoClass 5 лет назад
This guy nails it. It is more complex than what people make it out to seem.
@agftun8088
@agftun8088 5 лет назад
Keep your legs closed, how uncomplicated is that...
@sheadoherty7434
@sheadoherty7434 5 лет назад
@@agftun8088 Okay, incel
@agftun8088
@agftun8088 5 лет назад
I guess trying to protect innocent babies from being sucked out of their mothers womb and disposed of as garbage, now qualifies you as " incel"
@hrvsmart
@hrvsmart 5 лет назад
@@agftun8088 did you bother to watch the video the whole way through?
@vickicaravella6087
@vickicaravella6087 5 лет назад
Abdorhman Thi, you speak the truth, it is a very complex issue. If only we could all discuss this rationally and not get so emotional.
@setaside2
@setaside2 Год назад
An intriguing thought piece. For me it still boils down to theoretical/potential vs actual/viable. A fetus simply doesn't have the same value (to me... Just speaking for myself) as the extent, viable, participant mother. I'm also of the opinion that consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy and that consent to pregnancy is not necessarily a moral obligation to see that pregnancy to term. I also feel that legislating otherwise while arguing things like "right to life" without also providing for the bigger picture of making sure that right to life is then seen to materially so that it can be a life living with a certain societal dignity, are no more than gaslit cudgels. If you wish to force the birth and then addition to society of a new human being without the infrastructure to provide for it being well established... You're forcing a painful existence upon a person you swore should be saved simply because of the pain they might feel. It's hypocrisy at its most distilled. Either you care about its personhood entirely or you don't. And if you don't care enough about a creature's personhood enough post-womb to enable its right to dignified living, you have absolutely no place using said personhood as a supposedly pro-life argument.
@nick_no1
@nick_no1 Год назад
Bravo!
@elensila74
@elensila74 Год назад
Could not agree more, thank you.
@sophiapacione
@sophiapacione Год назад
Incredibly well said. Mind if I copy this to use in future discussions with some of my peers? (I’d obviously not take credit of course)
@georgewagner7787
@georgewagner7787 Год назад
Consent to sex certainly is consent to pregnancy. It has nothing to do with your opinion.
@mariashaffer-gordon3561
@mariashaffer-gordon3561 Год назад
@@georgewagner7787 Do men see it that way? If you have sex with a woman, are you consenting to help her raise a child if she becomes pregnant?
@deanrao4805
@deanrao4805 Год назад
A good talk, regarding the ethics of the situation. As for legislation on the issue, I think that no secular government should be allowed to establish laws restricting the sovereignty of a woman over her body (at least as as long as the fetus is within her person). It would obviate a lot of government activity if Congress et al could resolve to completely pass the buck regarding the morality to the woman and whatever moral influences she may subscribe to. Contentious though it will remain, secular government should free itself of this issue in the name of our ostensibly sacred liberty. Our right to dispose of our asserted personal property would seem to obviously apply to sovereignty over that which is our MOST personal property. Also, if it is claimed that society is adversely affected by the loss of a potential addition to the population, others might claim that there may be damages by further adding to the population. The law should simply pass the buck on this, with regard to abortion. (Unfortunately, it's too lucrative an issue for elected officials and those in electorally influenced positions to leave it alone.)
@josephinelegaspi9988
@josephinelegaspi9988 Год назад
This video covered a lot of great ontological questions and it was structured much like many of my college philosophy and political science classes. I love that it brings people of RU-vid into the non emotional side of this debate.
@rogeliorodriguez8518
@rogeliorodriguez8518 Год назад
Each sperm can potentially be a human. On average on the high end a male ejaculates about 5 ml of sperm. Each ml holds about 100,000,000 sperm. So every time a male ejaculates that’s 500,000,000 potential lives that are dying (according to the Republican mindset.) What is that like 500,000,000 manslaughter charges?
@Fatjuice
@Fatjuice Год назад
HOly shit you're dumb. No, sperm has no potential to become a human. Back to school.
@kipchpineda7161
@kipchpineda7161 Год назад
Men cannot control the amount sperm that will go out, neither can control them after doing so, and yet this couldn't make sense as it's equivalent would be if men were hermafrodite and men would just remove all the sperm out of the ovaries, yet is necesary to have both ovaries and sperm to make a living being, or a person, and only one sperm will make it in, and the rest would die, after that there is no return, once that happens now there will be two bodies, two souls, they are conected yet that does not mean that the mother has the control over the fetus body, try to abort and even though is futile the fetus will try to survive, and the feeling of something that was alive inside you, is gone.
@tabbune
@tabbune Год назад
You think Reps are okay with masturbation? They're already working on banning condoms
@kipchpineda7161
@kipchpineda7161 Год назад
@@tabbune Not that masturbation is any good, masturbation is a waste of resources, but banning condoms, condoms as unelagant as they are, they literaly save lives, and currently is the best way to not get pregnant, and avoiding unfortunate situations.
@davekendall1338
@davekendall1338 5 лет назад
This has nothing to do with "personhood." As the video explains, "person" is a legal and philosophical term. That means that the term is arbitrary. Which is precisely the reason "human rights" are called HUMAN rights and not PERSON rights. Governments can deny human beings personhood. It's happened numerous times throughout history...in the United States in 1859, in Germany in the 1940s, and again in the US in 1973. Every time human beings are denied personhood it's for the convenience of those who wield power over them. The easiest way to rationalize violating rights is to imagine that the entity whose rights you're denying doesn't possess rights.
@brandondavidson4085
@brandondavidson4085 5 лет назад
Wow, you actually framed the opposition to that argument in the best way possible. Those were my thoughts, but I've never been able to actually put them to words. There is a difference between human and person, which is why legally and morally, all people must be seen as humans, with inalienable and equal rights. The biological fact is that a fetus, no matter what stage of development, is a unique human organism with the potential for life if allowed to flourish and grow.
@SensusDivinitatis7
@SensusDivinitatis7 5 лет назад
I think you throw out the baby with the bathwater. As Robert Spaemann argues, a human being is a person qua being human. You cannot be a human and not be a person. Thus you can embrace the concept of personhood which is useful as it explains why humans cant just be killed like animals and you avoid the totalitarian kind of reasoning you have outlined.
@thaynedye1292
@thaynedye1292 5 лет назад
The reason the government uses “personhood” over “human” is, as he mentioned in the video, because using “human” as the standard is fraught with problems. Under that definition killing cancer cells could be murder. Pulling the plug on a person on life support would be murder. Clearly “human” is not the best standard.
@regs3941
@regs3941 5 лет назад
@@brandondavidson4085 Tell my unfertilized egg cells which are dying monthly and are flushed out by my menstruation, that I killed them, as I prevented them of getting fertilized and attached to my uterus. That's just what you're saying. All my egg cells have the potential of becoming a unique human being. And that mindset is just ridicolous.
@brandondavidson4085
@brandondavidson4085 5 лет назад
@@regs3941 In the absence of a sperm, an egg cell has no "potential". But if a woman has an egg fertilized through unsafe sex practices, she should be expected to take responsibility for it. For the same reason that the law requires the father of a child to provide for that child's welfare through child support payments. No pregnancy is "unexpected". You had sex, what did you expect other than a baby, a flatscreen TV?
@sarahhale-pearson533
@sarahhale-pearson533 Год назад
Within the personhood debate, I feel it is about time that we confer that honour to other sentient animals, such as cetaceans, higher primates, etc, with what we now know about their dept and level of intelligence and self-awareness…..
@trenthammer4127
@trenthammer4127 Год назад
I can agree where you are coming from but right now I just hope we doing kill off our own species by being stupid in one way out another.
@gaminggeckos4388
@gaminggeckos4388 Год назад
Yeah. Morality should be based on sentience, not DNA. And those intelligent animals you mentioned are WAY closer to sentience than a fetus is.
@jlinus7251
@jlinus7251 Год назад
Thanks. This kind of information is important to come up with your own beliefs and arguments rather than having everyone shove their ideas down your throat.
@juliamay8580
@juliamay8580 5 лет назад
"What is a person?" Man, that question is going to bug me for a while
@godbear2930
@godbear2930 5 лет назад
I think it should come down to 4 things, is it alive, does it have human DNA, does it have developed/working lungs, and does it have brain activity. If all 4 of these criteria are in place then it is in fact a person.
@alcoholicmuppet129
@alcoholicmuppet129 5 лет назад
God Bear Being alive and having some sort of brain function (or at least having a certain capacity to reason) should both be part of the criteria, but I disagree with the other two. An intelligent alien species could conceivably live without lungs and presumably wouldn’t be genetically human. If that species is at least as self-aware as humans are then shouldn’t it also be classified as a person?
@doommaker4000
@doommaker4000 5 лет назад
@@godbear2930 People in coma?
@godbear2930
@godbear2930 5 лет назад
@@alcoholicmuppet129 No
@godbear2930
@godbear2930 5 лет назад
@@doommaker4000 Depends on whether or not they have a chance of waking up or not but even then they're higher up on the scale than an unborn fetus.
@Naomi-rf1bl
@Naomi-rf1bl 5 лет назад
I can't stop staring at his glasses reflecting the white light so well it looks like they're cutting through his head.
@jakestetson28
@jakestetson28 5 лет назад
great thanks now i can't unsee it
@Doriesep6622
@Doriesep6622 5 лет назад
I like his glasses but I'd like to know his reasoning for choosing red ones
@rayrous8229
@rayrous8229 Год назад
Does the owner of an apartment have the right to evict a tenant, even if the tenant would die without the apartment?
@valian8985
@valian8985 Год назад
Exept on most country, you can't do that... Flawed argument...
@Eviishere
@Eviishere Год назад
Give me a sec because going through the comment section I saw the words "opinion", "debate" and "learning" way too many times. I agree that the expert handled the issue in a very respectable manner BUT, I think we are missing the point: the abortion debate is not just some philosophical question/argument/theory like the Ship of Theseus or the Grandfather Paradox you will discuss in class that will have no impact on other people's lives(I have no idea about philosophy btw). Abortion is a real life issue and an emergency and no amount of philosophical debate or respecting both sides is going to change the fact that WOMEN are going to DIE when abortions are banned.
@keco185
@keco185 Год назад
I could just as easily say: "Give me a sec because going through the comment section I saw the words "opinion", "debate" and "learning" way too many times. I agree that the expert handled the issue in a very respectable manner BUT, I think we are missing the point: the abortion debate is not just some philosophical question/argument/theory like the Ship of Theseus or the Grandfather Paradox you will discuss in class that will have no impact on other people's lives(I have no idea about philosophy btw). Abortion is a real life issue and an emergency and no amount of philosophical debate or respecting both sides is going to change the fact that BABIES are going to DIE while abortions are legal." I'm not against abortion but your comment does nothing here.
@Eviishere
@Eviishere Год назад
@@keco185 Fetal development "What we can say about the fetal nervous system is that based on the best science we have" on the neurons that carry pain signals is that the "system isn't developed until the third trimester of pregnancy," Davis told Live Science. Only 1% of abortions happen during the third semester, therefore what you are saying is that a non-sentient being is more important than a fully-fletched and sentient, feeling human. But apparantly you cannot perceive women as fully human. The women will feel the pain, the fetuses will not.
@nico-ke1nn
@nico-ke1nn 5 лет назад
It’s nice to see someone looking and analyzing the problem and argument, it’s effective to handle disagreements that way
@hiltonwatkins6750
@hiltonwatkins6750 Год назад
This is a very thoughtful presentation of philosophy and moral issues. Many child - adults treat it like a naughty book to be read with friends out behind the barn. Try and raise your minds up to a level that allows you to accept restrictions on your own behaviour without feeling the need to police your neighbor to meet your standards.
@donovanumbra9704
@donovanumbra9704 Год назад
If you feel like murder is wrong, does that mean you only feel murder is wrong *for you*? Obviously not: murder is wrong because we believe life is highly valuable, sacred, and that allowing murder puts such life at high risk. We see murder as an extremely antisocial activity. This is the reasoning of people who see abortion as a moral violation. Just like it's not only wrong for *me* to run over someone with my car, but it's wrong for everyone, so it's wrong for every mother to kill her child.
@hiltonwatkins6750
@hiltonwatkins6750 Год назад
@@donovanumbra9704 All I can suggest for you is to get ready for Sharia Law. If you can force your religion on a country every citizen will challenge you likewise.
@beausheffield1895
@beausheffield1895 Год назад
That’s assuming you define a fetus as a human. Mothers and Doctors aren’t murders. I don’t care what you say it’s not true.
@agilemind6241
@agilemind6241 Год назад
@@donovanumbra9704 Is a soldier killing someone in a war wrong? Is a police officer killing a suspect for any reason wrong? Is the death penalty wrong? Is a woman killing someone trying to rape her wrong? Specifically abortion wrong and not any of these other cases of one person killing another person wrong?
@donovanumbra9704
@donovanumbra9704 Год назад
@@agilemind6241 None of those cases are analogous to a woman and her child growing in her belly. It's silly of you to even bring it up. It's like asking: "is deliberately running over a person crossing the street the same as using self-defense to escape someone attempting to murder you?" Obviously not. A growing child is not attempting to kill it's mother: it's how all human life now here arrived. And the woman (except in cases of rape) willingly performed the act that naturally results in pregnancy. It is now that mother's, and the father's, moral obligation to love and nurture her child to the best of her ability. Its unnatural, barbaric, and inhumane to kill one's own children when they are most vulnerable and dependent on them. Can you imagine a woman stabbing her child to death as it breastfeeds? It is the same thing.
@stranger6822
@stranger6822 Год назад
Thank you so much, Ryan Gosling wearing red glasses, for this calm and balanced presentation.
@davidmccoy1378
@davidmccoy1378 Год назад
Always great to see this kind of discussion. I would have given more attention to the idea that an individual woman (existing person) has more say over her body than any of us-and that we always run the risk of minimizing her rights by jumping in to the details of what's happening with the fetus.
@jacqslabz
@jacqslabz Год назад
I find the personhood argument to be pointless. A person does not have the right to use the genitalia of another person against their will. So many abortion discussions focus on the fetus, with talking points like when can it feel pain. But no one mentions how the pregnant person can feel pain the entire time. The pregnant are persons, but many don't want to give them basic human rights (bodily autonomy).
@ft4903
@ft4903 Год назад
@@jacqslabz This is the strangest comment I've seen
@iHeartPiMore
@iHeartPiMore Год назад
AMEN!👏👏👏👏👏
@xw591
@xw591 Год назад
But really what were we expecting from a wealthy white man. The potential of the fetus to become another man is of greater importance than the experiences of the woman hosting it, and so he gives it more airtime.
@xw591
@xw591 Год назад
@@jacqslabz yup
@hadara69
@hadara69 Год назад
"If a fetus is a person at 6 weeks pregnant, is that when the child support starts? Is that also when you can't deport the mother because she's carrying a US citizen? Can I insure a 6-week fetus and collect if I miscarry? Just figuring if we're going there, we should go all-in" - Carliss Chatman, Law Professor, Washington and Lee University (2019)
@lindadavis5668
@lindadavis5668 Год назад
Brilliant, thank you. Boys and men have more skin in the game. I feel bad for teens, "in puppy love" who get pregnant. I was one who gave birth and gave up my daughter. I was suicidal for 13 years. Suffered awful shame, major depression and have been in therapy all of my life. We met when I was 41 she was 24. She died because of her addictions at age 51. A sad life for both of us. The bio father has about 4 children. Didn't support any of them, didn't marry moms. Didn't work, on disability. Always, always, has a live in girlfriend, no money.
@golfer435
@golfer435 Год назад
@@lindadavis5668 I am sorry you went through that. Hearing that there are men out there who would choose to treat women and their children this way makes me angry and it makes me determined to never do that to my future wife and any kids we may have.
@karlamccullough8614
@karlamccullough8614 Год назад
@@lindadavis5668 you are not alone, a friend of my older sister had a similar experience. She was 16 and forced to give away her baby. She never married, didn't have other children, spent much of her life wondering and worried about what happened to her daughter. She's now 80 years old, what a tragic life. ~~~~~ A friend of mine has a daughter who is not fully mentally competent, has drug induced brain damage. The daughter likes being pregnant. My friend tried to raise the first baby, after the 2nd baby, a year later, my friend went to court to lawfully have her daughter sterilized, it took years to get it approved. My friend couldn't cope with raising multiple mentally and physically handicapped babies. She was in her 50s at the time, it was overwhelming. She put them up for adoption.
@freedmm3122
@freedmm3122 Год назад
If a fetus isn’t a living human then why can a person that kills a pregnant woman be charged with double homicide?
@samf8887
@samf8887 Год назад
"Hi Carliss. I can't believe you're a law professor because your arguments are really erroneous. the law isn't the moral ceiling it's the moral floor. Ascribing child support as a valid reason for personhood doesn't logically follow. The motivation for wanting or not wanting to pay support, or the current laws of providing child support, are not valid criteria to qualify if a person is a person. That's illogical. Now if you'd like to argue reasonable duty of care in a life and death situation, such as that of neglect resulting in abuse and death, then maybe that'll be closer to logically sound. Until then please stop talking from your butt cheeks" - me, a single mom who only took 1 philosophy class ☺️
@threetailedfox1
@threetailedfox1 5 лет назад
(not sure if this was already said but here we go) The last one also ties in a concept called "Bodily Autonomy", meaning in order for someone to use your body (such as blood or organs) they MUST have YOUR permission before taking anything. If you did not give consent to be an organ donor in life, no one can legally use your organs after your death. DEAD BODIES have bodily autonomy! So forcing someone to dedicate their body to gestate something/someone without their consent is a violation of bodily autonomy, and treats them with less respect than corpses.
@blusheep2
@blusheep2 5 лет назад
I don't think this is a good argument at all. It was unique but fails in that it ignores the fact that the life gestating is an independent life. Its not the women's body. Its the body of a growing human being. It is not synonymous with an organ. It also ignores the consent the women gave to the penis that entered her and helped create that human being inside her.
@Pasch55
@Pasch55 Год назад
Consent is ongoing. You can always take it back. And in case of a pregnancy ongoing consent is needed as well. And regarding the fact that there's another body involved, a little thought experiment: The only way to protect Person As (pregnant person) bodily autonomy in an unwanted pregnancy is to remove Person B (fetus) from their body. We can do so by also respecting Person Bs bodily autonomy and take them out of the womb alive and give them all medical resources available to survive. In that scenario we are protecting the bodily autonomy of Person A and Person B. However early on in a pregnancy that will still always lead to the death of Person B. And I believe then it is more human to kill that Fetus instead of letting it suffer until it dies outside the womb. But that also means that once the fetus has a chance at survival abortion is not the way to go.
@threetailedfox1
@threetailedfox1 Год назад
@@blusheep2 It is using her body without consent, therefore it has no right to use her body in any way
@threetailedfox1
@threetailedfox1 Год назад
@@Pasch55 in order to give bodily autonomy rights to Person B you have to strip body autonomy rights from Person A. Person A is the one that is pregnant, therefore their bodily autonomy rights take priority. If they decide that they want to go through with a pregnancy, more power to them. But if they choose to abort, that means they have every single right to kick out Person B, because by then they do not have consent to use someone else's body.
@Pasch55
@Pasch55 Год назад
@@threetailedfox1 I fully agree with you! I was trying to give a hypothetical scenario where we would be able to respect both their bodily autonomy ("detaching" Person B from Person A but trying to save Person Bs life - which early on in a pregnancy is simply not possible). And I wanted to point out that even if we respect Person Bs bodily autonomy they will still die when the pregnancy is unwanted because we also have to respect Person As bodily autonomy.
@charlesperkins3669
@charlesperkins3669 Год назад
The issue for me is what defines personhood (what are you entitled to as a person), who defines personhood and the rights and privileges for these entities? As I recall, the SCOTUS has declared corporations as legal persons.
@Yayarayaya
@Yayarayaya Год назад
I really liked the explanation but i just want to say, a woman impregnated while being unconscious, that is also rape!!
Далее
МОЯ НОВАЯ МАШИНА🤍КАК ВАМ?😍
01:01
Что мне Спеть?😺
3:15:51
Просмотров 1 млн
♥️ #jesurathi
0:05
Просмотров 40 тыс.
The 4 things it takes to be an expert
17:59
Просмотров 10 млн
Is Abortion Murder? | Middle Ground
26:19
Просмотров 3,6 млн
The Ethics of Abortion
5:53
Просмотров 8 тыс.
МОЯ НОВАЯ МАШИНА🤍КАК ВАМ?😍
01:01