I'm fine they design cards for Commander only in sets and commander precons meant for Commander, and even then they need to have the foresight to not make dumb shit like Nadu. Miss Bumbleflower is a perfect example. Pretty darn strong group hug commander that you benefit from a lot more than your opponents do getting +1/+1 counters and 2 cards on your second cast. They shoulda done the same thing with Nadu and just let his stuff trigger only twice OVERALL
Commander is the worst thing to happen to MTG, and I stand by that. And to elaborate, I don't mean EDH. I think EDH was perfectly fine and a great thing. I mean when WotC decided they needed to monetize a market that was perfectly content doing what it was doing. A subtle rules change (things like 'each opponent' for example) was perfectly fine, but from Ikoria onward we've seen too many formats get absolutely eviscerated by attempts to get Commander players to play or buy more cards.
@@MrSyltphademus no the problem is lack of playtesting. they didn't see the issue with oko and they said they straight-up didn't test the final iteration of nadu that went to print.
yea, I get that some people hate fast mana. But that should be a rule0 conversation like everything else in your pod. RC hates commander games that go fast. So they made that decision for everyone. The only people I ever hear of complaining about these cards are content creators and people in their chat. Nobody I play with gives a fuck, and nobody in LGS i've been in care either. All they care about is being told ahead of time so they can either politely refuse or so that they can swap decks to match that level.
@@Geblino rule 0 doesn't work that well where you're playing pick up games at stores or online. The same argument can be reversed on you when you can rule 0 your playgroup to allow these cards.
This seems like bad faith reasoning. The vast majority of cards that are "designed for commander" in an explicit way aren't really problems for the format. The cards banned here are outliers in terms of how broken they are (which is why they were banned lmao)
@@toms1782 well if you buy cardboard for price speculation reasons instead of for playing a fun game, you have to deal with that cardboards value disappearing on a whim
Dockside - 85...down to 30 Jeweled - 90...down to 35 Crypt - 194........down to 81 As of a few hours ago.... Nice example of why people welcome proxies more.
Nice example of why people shouldn't buy expensive cardboard in the first place. Absolutely none of these cards are necessary in a deck to function. Ive been playing commander for a good long while, while avoiding anything above 10 or even 20 if i really really like the card in a flavour kind of way or my budget permits at that point in time and i can say from personal experience that I missed exactly none of these cards even when playing against them. Too many people fall for the trap of "oooh card is expensive so it MUST be in my deck!!"
Still don't understand why Jeweled Lotus is worth anything at all. It's not legal in Commander or Oathbreaker, the only two sanctioned formats it functions in... are people still trying to make a separate cEDH banlist happen?
Even at my LGS the owner used to have a problem with a big amount of decks being filled with proxies and recently he said he doesn't care because even he thinks it's ridiculous
If there is one thing I've learned from these bans, it's that the Commander community (EDH and cEDH alike) is much more fractured on what bannings in the format is supposed to accomplish than I initially thought. When nothing happens, the RC gets shit for being stagnant. But if they commit to a decision and direction, it feels like a third of the playerbase will rise up, tearing at them for ruining what they think the format should be.
The problem is that there are as many different ways to play commander as there are commander players. It's part of the reason that the no bans approach that we've had for the past however long hasn't had a strong negative effect on the format. Players have naturally put themselves in the playgroups where they have fun with commander, so at the end of the day, if you're the kind of player who used these cards, they probably weren't a problem at your table or else people wouldn't be playing at your table.
Someone is always going to get upset over a ban.... But this is due to the RC not doing anything long enough that has caused so many fractures in the community itself.
Well ultimately, it's a group of people and different people have different opinions. For every person loudly complaining about certain cards needing to be banned, there is a person who is happily playing with the cards they have and not engaging in that discussion. It's only when they find out that some of their cards that they'd been happily playing with are now banned that they are drawn into the discussion and they come in angry.
@@TwoHanderVGCIf I may ask, Did you get to regularly play with these cards? Or was it more of an investment? Because as long as you had fun with them and built solid memories from the experience of playing them then I wouldn’t consider it a full on loss.
Cradle also requires some work to get online. It wasn’t like tolarian academy where there are a crap ton of free artifacts that also create mana and can be tapped on that turn
@@nCaveman1 I wouldn't say Cradle requires any more work compared to Tolarian Academy. It just gets online couple of turns later in comparison. "Play creatures" isn't a big hurdle to overcome, especially in a format where a token generating commander might often alone be enough to turn Cradle into a filthy mana-making machine.
@@Sicktoid "A couple of turns later" is massive and I'm surprised that you seem to think it's not. Make no mistake, Cradle is an absolute aberration in mana generation, but the absolute gulf between even that and TAcademy stands as a testament to how ludicrous TAcademy is.
Can't say I disagree. So many cards skate by the banlist on supply side constraints similar excuses and personally I'd be happy to see them banned, but then again, I'm personally a proponent of a more robust banlist, so there is bias there.
It's worth noting that all 3 of the big cards were reprinted last year, with jeweled lotus in CMM, and dockside+mana crypt in LCI. It's likely the RC wanted these bans for a while, but weren't able to with the upcoming product using these chase cards for marketing, and had to wait for them to be far enough behind us to take action. I don't know the timeline but these bans could have been set as far back as 2022 but held back.
Oh, this is very believable. Don’t ban these in commander, RC. We have already made and printed these chase cards to draw people in, wait until end of year we don’t have plans to reprint them anytime soon. Thanks, love Hasbro.
@LilFlame2001 go and watch the interview that the Professor did with Sheldon from the RC a couple years ago. The Professor asked Sheldon directly if he was getting paid by Wizards and his response was that he would not deny nor confirm anything in regards to that. So there is your answer 😂
I agree with everything except for the part about Wizards being upset about losing reprint equity. You can't tell me that there isn't a line that if the committee crossed wizards wouldn't veto and take full control of the format. The truth of the matter is that dockside was a design mistake, jeweled lotus was made intentionally bannable to push commander legends, and mana crypt is just a dated pre-edh overpowered card that wizards has already milked to death in the past decade. It's clear by the modern horizons sets, they will just make "tribute" cards that are just nerfed versions of these. Let's not forget that jeweled lotus is essentially a "tribute" black lotus in the first place. The rules committee should have shown some spine when jeweled lotus came out in the first place.
Honestly I don't approve of the bans but seeing the dolts that complain about the RC not doing anything getting to eat crow is pretty satisfying If the RC is doing their job well, the community is doing its job well, and WoTC *isn't* doing their job badly, the Rules Committee shouldn't have to do anything!
Ngl reviewing the ban list and removing stuff on the occasion would be nice. Golos, Emrakul, and primeval titan are definitely slow enough for the format these days.
@FatstaxMTG as an individual who is probably gonna quit because of this ban; those cards should stay banned. Most notably Prime Time. The lands they have made justify its ban
So, the Lost Caverns of Ixalan set just got released 10 months ago containing SEVEN super-sexy reprints of Mana Crypt that have been selling anywhere from $200 all the way up to $3,200 on TCGP, along with a ton of Collector Boosters I'd guess, only to ban that hallmark card less that a year later? I know Nadu had a shorter life span, and the Wizards have already admitted their mistake regarding that one, but it doesn't have a ton of different printings for it either, and it also hasn't been around as long as the game itself. Slimy stuff right here folks.
The cards are still super sexy and I would gladly have them in my collection. But locking them behind ridiculous expensive Collector booster and the pricepoint never made me think about chasing or buying.
same here, I only buy singles since M30 and pretty versions for cards I own and use in my decks (because I like shiny stuff). I try to sell or trade whats on my binder only to get the cards I want to upgrade my decks or make a new one every once in a while. (I used to buy a Collector for each set, plus playing a lot in the pre release)
@@_Axel_G_ They don't. Only one of the four was even in the top 10 on the saltmeter (Nadu). The other poster wasn't saying these were the top four saltiest, just that if you look at their salt values, they would go in that order, respective to each other.
@@_Axel_G_ actually it would be democratic. The salt score is just showing what people don't like, which is fair to consider coz it's the casual format. Though balancing is important too
Can I also just add this is why I LOVE 7pt Highlander as a format. Your best cards never get banned, they simply become a more costly asset as they become too ubiquitous/powerful in the format.
I feel like the Rules Committee have painted themselves into a corner with saying that every game/pod/table/LGS should have a Rule 0 list or discussion, and that their banlist is just signposts, BUT THEN ALSO having a ban list. If you have a ban list, make a ban list and curate it frequently and clearly. If you have a suggestions list then you're just another group of players and your suggestions shouldn't hold the weight to cause such a drastic change.
Basically the commander ban list is a group of cards that they don't want you to show up to your lgs and just pub stomp people into the ground with them but once you establish your actual play group you should have no problem having a discussion to ask hey can I play 1 or 2 cards on ban list because they actually fit my deck thematically And go either way with their approval... so yes it has a place but if you have a consistent play group of just friends the ban list is not really nessasary
@@d43m0n412 @@d43m0n412 But that dichotomy is why everyone gets up in arms with the RC. Is it a ban list if it's not actually really banned? Is it a suggestion list? If those cards were just Kitchen Table usage then they wouldn't have been big pack sales chase cards. And on that point, why does WotC have a group outside of their control giving so much control to the product that likely drives the most sales of their product? The gun that they now have to point WotC's head in regards to reprint equity is bonkers.
@@muchochucho9778 Wait how does that compute. Them being banned is less objectively pub-stompy. Whether that is enough or the right hits is a different discussion. And "pubstomping" with stax and land destruction is either a good way to become archenemy and have to 1v3 every game or a good way to make both new and experienced players not let you at their table again because there's no way you got that past an actual rule 0.
Let’s be honest. This doesn’t affect 75% of the commander player base who don’t own these cards. (Yes I know proxies exist, that’s why I said 75 instead of 90) What this really effects is cedh.
it will just push thoracle even further to the top while making a lot of the tier 3-4 decks worse overall it just makes it even more obvious that we need a separation between casual and competitive commander
@@jesuschrist3147 Yeah, I was running Niv Mizzet, Parun because I didn't want a Thoracle win-con and now the whole deck is non-viable. I guess it's still a "good" EDH deck without those cards, but it'll never be cEDH again
My LGS has been trying its best to get rid of its commander masters product. Now I don’t think there’s a single soul that would buy it off them after the ban.
@@nunyabusiness3957 and now a chance at instead of any of those hitting a placeholder card for the black lotus in your garth one-eye deck. Nobody wants to pull cards that they cannot use out of extremely expensive boosters.
As one of those people I'm actually really happy about this. Now unban some of the tame cards like Primetime Titan and Recurring Nightmare that never should have been banned in the first place. RIP my Crypt though.
Did you just call prime time "tame"?! One of the best green cards ever printed.... Tame... Sure, I'll take a turn 3 20/20 flying indestructible. It's tame, bro.
Kenobi identified the main issue that other content creators seem to be missing: these cards simply sat far too long without action by RC and were allowed to become highly sought after chase cards. It felt so sudden that cards sitting for years without any identification from RC that they were even remotely being looked at, let alone ban worthy. I hope RC learns from this and begins more aggressively taking action on any new cards printed that are obviously too busted or un fun for commander. I think Dockside and Lotus banning were inevitable over time as the format grew, and the RC should have realized they would eventually be too much to keep around and banned it much earlier before that point, saving many people and LGSs alot of money.
I'd say conservatively between singles and sealed product this wiped 10s of millions of dollars worth of value from magic players in a moment. Truly a crazy time.
Players and shops... Plus to be honest seriously damaged earning potential of commander bombs in future products, which in the long run might be a good thing as Lotus imho was a mistake. In cedh though, Lotus made commanders that cost more than 3 mana more playable, without it and crypt, cmc 5+ commanders might as well be out of the competitive side format. I like the choice for casual, but to be honest, no one in my playgroup used those cards during casual evenings so I see no real benefit from the decision.
@@AbsolutelyGeek people were not playing those cards because they were unavailable to them. both because of the price tag and number of copies available. sol ring is almost as good as crypt and most people run it without any afterthought. banning them will be beneficial to the format. on the other hand this will affect mostly competitive part of the format so i don't see why ban them now. lotus and dockside should not have been in the format in the first place.
I think that Josh Lee Kwai told wizards that they shouldnt print jeweled lotus when he was asked to play tests commander legends and they still went ahead with it. In one mind i'm glad these are gone, but i do feel sorry for those who invested into them
I know you intentionally did not talk about Nadu, but the irony is funny to me that they showed the original version to Casual play design and they said, that this is not fun in Commander only to change it into something that is so not fun in commander, that it had to be banned 😂
As someone who is slowly watching one of their most valuable cards just free fall (mana crypt) i can honestly say that i feel like it both sucks and is a relief... i love the card and wanted to play it so i bought one years ago... when it was more appropiate for decks at the time but after moving and going to a newer lgs where people are mostly playing precons and stuff its kinda a relief cause i was kinda torn on putting it into decks or finding decks that i could reasonably feel like if i got the magical christmas land start that i wouldnt feel bad... and while i am losing money even as i type this i think that the discourse has gone on long enough and that the cards being banned today are ultimately better to leave the format as a whole then continuing to continue to push the power level of even the most casual of decks.... so yeah im sad im inevitably going to lose money on the deal but the wider effect of this banning will hopefully send a message to wizards that people dont want these cards in OUR format... its NOT their format... Player created and player maintained format... stop printing obvious staples into OUR format and allow it to grow organically like it was when the format started... just stop wotc... just stahp!
If only there were more players like you who could police themselves among other players not having those cards. The cards wouldn't need to be banned if more souls were like yours.
Yea I pretty much ran my mana crypt in my Legend Matters deck where the extra colorless mana didn't really help all that much, since just about every card had 3-5 coloured pips in the casting cost. When I would explain to the pod that, yes it a strong deck, it's not strong because of the fast mana, they were fine with it. It's strong because I stuffed it with the strongest legendary spells/creatures in the color pie with recursion stapled to their asses. Sure, once or twice I got the goldfish opener with every mana rock in my deck turn 1 but then I'm open to just getting the beat down because I just have a bunch of mana and not much else going on, or I get OL-vandal balsted into the stone age (true story). I'd still only bring it out against people playing decks in the higher tier (IE UR-Dragon, Edgar, Sliver piles, KKrik (or however you spell his name))
@thechikage1091 I'm not completely innocent there were times I'd pull my deck out just be an ass but yeah for the most part it stayed in my oona mill deck as a combo piece as a part of my isochron scepter loop... but yeah... just still feel burned and hopefully my mana vault doesn't go the same way as crypt did seeing the price absolutely skyrocket... definitely going to be keeping an eye on that one for sure...
Dockside is as broken now as it was 18 months ago. They didnt ban it then because they wanted to sell more prints of it. It just feels so abusive that dockside was left unchecked for so long, and only NOW they hit it
> They didnt ban it then because they wanted to sell more prints of it. This conspiracy theory has no basis in reality. The RC is not WotC. The RC banned these cards even though WotC still wants to sell more of them. > It just feels so abusive that dockside was left unchecked for so long, and only NOW they hit it The emphasis here should be on "feels". These cards were monitored before they were banned. Nothing about the current timing is actually "abusive". If you want to complain about something, complain about printing overpowered chase-mythics designed specifically for Commander. These bans signal WotC do move away from that, and it will take the format in a more healthy direction.
@@Y00bi yea this dude is completely ignorant lol it’s the same with milking crypt as well not to mention jeweled lotus was just reprinted twice as well, had to wait until after the print runs to throw the bans out
Literally my first thought when reading that part. The “identity of the format” my ass, it’s because it would be a nightmare to enforce when every fucking precon has one.
Real hot take... Who cares about the rc ban list. Rule 0 is LITERALLY "This is a kitchen table format. The rules aren't real so play what makes your group happy." Besides.. the banlist has ALWAYS been a problem more than anything else. Unclear what its intentions are, incomplete, or just off base. No hate to the RC, they're doing what they can but commander wasn't built to be played the way it is now. Magic wasn't built to support 4 player games and wizards pushing commander hasn't made it any better. I love playing commander. It's my primary format. But it's clunky and requires collaboration between players. There's nothing the RC can do to ease that need and make it instantly accessible to 4 random people meeting for the first time. There are growing pains while a pod finds its groove and settles into it.
I feel so, SO bad for my local game store. They're kinda small,and i recently just sold my extra docksides and jeweled Lotus to them. (2 each) I felt i didn't need multiple when i could shuffle my one real copy between decks and the owner was happy to get some big cards to flip. Now this smaller store is stuck with cards that will most likely NEVER go back up to the prices they were at.
It does suck, but that is one of the risks of buying/selling singles in general. They can increase or reduce in value by a whole lot really easily. And they likely know that as well. That said, I guess just getting some stuff from there would be the best move if you feel bad since they can somewhat recoup their losses. But that is just my opinion.
Smothering tithe is a lot more obnoxious than jeweled lotus, also, most people don't feel bad about bringing tithe into lower power pods and it can easily generate way more mana advantage while also not being restricted to just casting commanders.
I was always amazed that Crypt was legal to begin with considering the O.G moxen are banned and they're basically strictly worse than it in most situations
then they should have never messed with the Crypt ... banning expensive rare one but leaving cheap one legal is nonsensical - either ban both or neither of them ...
@@kuroginava8498 ah yes because you end up with two specific cards in opening hand in 100 card singleton format sooo often ... ill say it again, if they want to ban Crypt they should ban the Sol ring too... it has to be either both or neither
Honestly. I fucking hate that tournament players are being forced to cater to casual players who can self police anyway. Also, after making these cards chase cards for the past few years, this is incredibly scummy.
Why would I care what someone tells me to do with the casual format I play? Are they going to come and tell my pod that we can't use these cards? This is good news for me and my pod, because we'll just buy these for cheap now and use them anyhow.
These were banned, because the power level is so high. Your pod doesn't sound so casual If you use higher Power cards than the rest of the players on the world LOL
I mean if the design team tested these cards properly and they ended up never being printed then we wouldn’t have the issue in the first place like you said.
I feel like with all three of the Designed For Commander (TM) cards they banned, someone that plays MtG at WotC could've actually read the cards and might've noticed that they're not okay. Same with Smothering Tithe.
Rough for the dedicated players. Seems like a monkeys paw case. People wanted commander to be managed and official, but also keep the same niche small town charm it had in the start. But you can't have it both ways. The tighter commander lists get across the board, the more it pushes the "good fun time casual game here for 4 hours" players away from the format. You can not build a deck for a format when the laws of the format are different at every table, every time. EDH needs managed like any other format, OR it needs to remain unofficial with no dedicated precons and people just do it up like they used to. But you can't do both.
The RC, who are clearly fans of durdling rubbish, are disconnected from the actual player base. If I’m playing in a casual game, let’s rule zero and discuss our decks. If I’ve paid to join a tourney for the evening, I don’t want to sit there and watch Timmy durdle out a 3/6 Elven Iguana in their blue green masturbation deck and not be able to fast mana combo them out of the game so we can actually play 4 games in an evening. I don’t want to linger in a game for 3 hours to lose to the same 2-3 green overrun effects. These bans is just reinforcing the same circlejerking rubbish battle cruiser playing run your creatures into mine for 3 hrs rubbish. For the love of Bob, that’s fine at your table. It’s not fine at the lgs
I can’t help feeling like this happened because Sheldon wasn’t there to stop it from happening. (I also want to note before people blast me: I love these bans.)
Instead of banning jeweled lotus, just put it in every precon. Edit: if anyone disagrees with me, just remember "when everyone's super, no one will be."
Interesting take. I can get behind that. Sol Ring is in every precon now, so why not pair it with a Jeweled Lotus? The price of Sol Ring is now more affordable.
Yep and that is why I have zero issue with Sol Ring being legal. Everyone has access to it and therefor everyone can be on an even playing field. I would be OK with Lotus if it were just printed in premium precons like the ones for MH3.
@TheForeverRanger not even premiums, I mean basic precons. Good news is, if it becomes a worthless card. You can play a new game mode. I haven't worked out the name, but I'm thinking jeweled pod or something. Every player starts with a jeweled lotus in their opening hand. It's exiled after it's used, the mana can't be doubled.
I didn’t buy lotus and dockside as an investment, I’m just a new player who made the mistake of building a cedh deck 🫠 very upset by this. The fast pace of the game was what I was enjoying the most, you could always rule 0 these out if your pod wanted to have a slower game. Such a beautiful card jeweled lotus is too what a shame.
You can always rule 0 them in if your pod wants to have a faster game. Indeed, it's easier to rule 0 something in than out. If you're trying to 0 in a banned card, you're more likely to have a substitute ready to go if the pod says no. If you 0 out a card, you might make somebody's deck unplayable for that night.
@@Vex-MTGsure but you are more likely to have people unwilling to play against banned cards than you are people unwilling to change which deck they play to make the game competitive for the table. This didn’t actually solve any problems but cost people millions and hurt the perception of collectibility of the game, which, whether you like it or not is a huge portion of the money that goes into the game. This will hurt money incoming into the game which negatively affects R&D budget, which in turn lessens the quality moving forward. Which will only lead to more mistakes like this.
I’m with you Vince. These cards haven’t changed, they’ve existed forever, but I guess the philosophy of the RC I suppose? Lucky enough to have opened my crypt and lotus during mystery booster and commander legends drafts, but it stings. I guess I’m just filled with some general hesitation and worry because I’ve traded into a Serra’s Sanctum and it holds a lot of sentimental and monetary value. I would hate to lose it. /: But I guess also it’s odd from a communication point too, I do remember them talking about potentially banning Dockside… Two or three quarterly updates ago I think?? But this strike down on fast mana seems out of nowhere. Great video man.
I don't think a card like Serra's Sanctum will ever get banned. The thing with Dockside, Mana Crypt and Jeweled lotus is that they fit into every deck for MC and JL and any deck that runs red for Dockside and they always get so much value for very little investment. Where as Serra's Sanctum you need to build up your board with enchantments it isn't just a 'play this and get instant value card' along with needing your deck to already be doing stuff with enchantments to really make it worth it.
Honestly, I own some of these and I am not even upset. Mind you, I never went and bought these cards, only opening them in packs. However, I am a big supporter of slower games with slower mana bases, so I wouldn't have been upset if Sol Ring got the axe, though I would have been shocked for sure. I think it would have been nice if there was a watchlist of cards that the Commander Rules Committee (CRC) gave us so we have an idea of cards they are looking into banning, just so there is some warning. Like, if Nadu came out and was placed on the watchlist immediately, I don't think many would go out and buy it as much, but then again, maybe the CRC wants to see how a card is played without any influence from them.
The slower game with slower mana bases was at regular edh tables, not cedh tables though. You were just sitting at the wrong table or not having sufficient rule 0 talk
The mismanagement of commander objectively had started with the first commander product WotC spat out, or perhaps even prior. I'll not be dissuaded of this. Great vid btw!
I think part of the problem with the ban was how unceremonious it was, there wasn't any announcement informing the community of an update to the banlist without spoiling the changes. At least then players could brace themselves for changes.
I think that would go extremely poorly. Schrodinger’s ban list is a terrible idea as you have people betting on which cards are leaving and cashing out hoping they are right. And trust me that wouldn’t be the end of it. Even just deck building in anticipation. And if you think people are upset now for what isn’t on there? Imagine being certain Rhystic would be taken out and then not. The usual frustration is turned to an 11 because of build up. Seriously a schrodinger’s ban list an awful idea.
@@Arufonsa1 It'd be their own fault for selling out or buying into cards at that point. Giving advance notice would give players a chance to opt out of purchases if they aren't certain that their cards will still be legal
@@otterfire4712 I don’t think this actually counters anything I said. I’m not saying it won’t be their own fault just that it would be a result. And why not try to avoid it?
@@Arufonsa1 I'd rather people intentionally gamble on banlist speculations than players get blindsided by a banlist because the RC just decided to make an update after several years of silence. This surprise banlist hampers the value of further purchases towards deck improvement as you can never be certain when/if RC will suddenly swoop in an ban the cards you just purchased.
@@otterfire4712 Well I want to make it clear. Market speculation is not my only problem with it. Again I think a phantom ban list in general can only end badly with player anticipation. Especially if it isn’t a scheduled yearly thing. Which it often does not need to be. Second I can use your own argument against you here. That’s on them for investing in cardboard. The market does not owe you anything and the house always wins. Play stupid games and all that.
I agree with Crypt being the least offensive of the group, and I’m not entirely sold on the necessity of a ban on it. That said, I do get the reasoning on all of the bans and think the ban announcement is good for the casual side of the format. I do agree with the cEDH players saying that getting rid of Dockside, Jeweled Lotus, and Crypt guts a couple of strategies that compete with Oracle combo decks. Banning them risks making Oracle the only real solution to cEDH. Time will tell on all that, but it’s certainly a concern at the moment.
@@Mibit911 either that or EVERY turn 1 hyperaccelerant card needs to get banned ... its almost like they specifically targeted the Crypt because its rare and expensive
@Asghaad theres so many other cards you could claim do the same thing and allow explosive turns. Dark ritual Elvish spirit guide Sol ring (which they wanted to ban) Mana vault Mox amber in cedh with 0 drop commander Chrome mox and mox opal Mox diamond. Grim monolith Gemstone caverns or mines. Like whats the difference between a turn 1 land sol ring arcane signet esper sentinel Vs 1 land esper sentinel mana crypt signet sol ring. THEY ARE BOTH RIDICULOUS 1 IN A MILLION HANDS TJAT REQUIRE HIGE AMOUNT OF CARDS. the only 2 cards I agree should be banned is Nadu for sure. It's the worst and hurts the least amount of people. And jlo potentially unless they just erratato be 1 mana. Because 3 colored mana for 0 Is broken But 2 colorless mana with potential damage every turn is not
The funny thing about this banning is, they had talked to wizards of the Coast personally a year before making this band and yet in the last year to six months, they have literally flooded the market with all four of these cards all four and now they’re on the band listand one of the commander advisor committee members is a CEDH player. All these cards are on the CEDH I have never once seen any of these cards played at any of my local LGS except for on a competitive night this is clearly a hit against competitive commander. They’re out to destroy the format
Yeah that would be very scandalous but I'm pretty sure insider trading only applies to things like stocks so if that's the case it wouldn't be illegal just unethical. Perhaps a boycott on them would suffice.
5:00 Also it's waaaay too late to ban Sol Ring. You want people to be able to pick up a precon and play. As simple as it would be to swap it out of every new deck it would still give a bad 1st impression to new players to have to do so. edit: also, 1st new card bans in how long?
@@brandonbrooks779 newbie in store to employee: "how do I play this game?" "you buy any of these boxes _waves hand at wall of product_ " vs "you buy any of these boxes, then take some of the cards out of them, and put _something else_ in, it can't be a duplicate of any of the other 99 cards and has to match the colors" Guess what the response to the second will be
Crypt been legal for long too and still got banned. If one is going both should go imo. Banning one is just stupid and dumb. Heck in some situations sol.ring is even the better card.
@@Lowelo860 if you genuinely can't see the difficulty in banning something that is in literally every precon. Then there's no way to actually have this conversation with you
I think that’s honestly the only way it could go. Minus the need for financial earnings you have nothing left to go on but personal interpretation. Even thinking logically the conclusion you want to reach is still based on person preference. I’m not sure what you are expecting. If we just had another group the results would be slightly different but most likely have the same reactions.
Yeah it sucks financially for people that spent a lot of money on these cards but I think that fundamentally having really expensive cards that give a huge advantage sucks for everyone not willing to pay 200 dollars for a single card. And a lot of people are not willing to pay 200 dollars for a single card because if it gets banned or even reprinted you spent all that money for nothing.
"And a lot of people are not willing to pay 200 dollars for a single card because if it gets banned or even reprinted you spent all that money for nothing."-- You still have the card and you can always play it casually, so it wasnt spent for "nothing". Spending on magic cards is ALWAYS a sunk cost that sometimes can be recouped. Expecting it to be any other way is self delusion or you were deceived.
@@fomori2 yes, you still have the card but are we really going to pretend like resell value does not factor in when people buy a 200 dollar piece of cardboard that can be proxied for pennies? If it is just about playing a game then the cards being real is irrelevant.
the cheapest jeweled lotus is now 25€, mana crypt 50€ and dockside 18€ on cardmarket. i kind of love this, even though i have all of those and now "lost money" (not really since it's cardboard). no non premium version of a card should be as expensive as they were. in the words of ron swanson "slash it! slash it! slash it!"
The price conversation is always going to be a huge point of contention amongst Magic players (usually rightly so). I do have to say, however, that Commander is, has been, and will continue to be a CASUAL FORMAT! The Commander Rules Comity isn't even PART of Wizards of the Coast. Meaning the Commander ban list is meant not to CONTROL the format, but to make more regulated and fun to play for everyone. The thing is, if you and your group finds fast mana fun, you should ignore this ban. If you recently bought one of these cards, don't let the bans stop you from playing them (but discuss it with your opponent, of course).
So... We can agree that the problem is not what cards have been banned but rather the RC's philosophy right? They argued that commander is about creativity, but that creativity must be represented in slower decks. So... For people who like faster games, RC is kinda saying that optimizing style creativity is not quite for EDH. And that's not really cool on their side. I was an advocate for the removal of fast mana for years. Me own group had forbidden all of them. We latter expanded and became the only magic format in the LGS and for that point onwards we just asked people (particularly new people) how did they play and what they wanted to play. And, you know, ir worked. With some exceptions, of course, but it worked. A bunch of us eventually picked up cEDH as a thing to play from time to time but as it's own things with it's own decks. And still, worked. I do not belive this banlist is good, not because those cards are getting banned, as one of the points of cEDH is to get the most out of the resources you can get. So the format will just change and adapt. But I do not like the RC's philosophy. Many people claimed they did nothing, but sometimes less is more and if the alternative to nothing is to enforce specific playstyles based on their idea of what the format should be, then inaction is better than action. That being said, I'm interested in what Jim from spike feeders have to say, owing that he is part of the RC
They are not "kinda" saying that. They are literally saying in the first sentence that EDH is for creative, slower strategies that won't work in 1v1 and their goal is to encourage these slower environments. I don't get the confusion, they literally spell it out for you. They've repeatedly told you in plain English that EDH isn't a competitive format and the RC's purpose is to promote social games, not competitive ones. If you want to go fast, Vintage is sweet and would love new players. It even has the benefit that all the broken spells are restricted so you're basically playing EDH
@@treycuret I think the confusion is due to Wizards not backing up their claim as to why they are banning the cards to begin with. If you are going to use fast mana as the basis of your bans you cannot tell me Sol Ring is not right up there with Crypt and Lotus. Their reasoning behind not banning Sol Ring is the most blatant lie I have ever seen from the RC. "Its unbannable, it's too iconic, it defies the laws of magic". What a load of crock. Its "unbannable" because they printed it in every Precon and know for a fact they can't handle the PR nightmare they would have created by banning Sol Ring. If you are going to use a specific reason for the ban, go full boar. I would be a lot more accepting of this ban list, positive many others would be as well, if they had included Sol Ring. Then I would respect their reasoning as they actually stood by it instead of letting certain cards slide. Imo every POD will now be who drew the sol ring? Oh you? You're the target now. Every single time.
It’s concerning that this, as the first banning since Sheldon’s death, hit a card that’s been in the format for over a decade. At best, it’s poor optics, at worst, it’s confirmation that he was the only reason it wasn’t banned sooner. If the goal of the bans was to slow down games and limit the amount of explosive starts, they should have banned two of the cards, and explained that they may hit more if they think they need to.
Iona, Shield of Emeria: can completely take out an entire player if they’re playing a mono deck. Tolarian Academy: unfairly extreme amount of mana for having artifacts. Mana crypt: makes two mana on a potential turn one. The ban list should be for cards that can ruin games or have such an immense unfair advantage. Mana crypt and Jeweled Lotus gives a slight advantage that can be more impactful in early games. This shouldn’t have been cards that were up for debate on banning. This hurts my trust for the rules committee.
@@Enja_Nearthose were banned because their cost is prohibitive and creates a power disparity for those players with access to them. I don’t think the same is the case for these cards.
My most beloved and sentimental card, my DCI (Judge Promo) Mana Crypt, is now unfortunately nothing but a pretty card to see every once in a while when I open my binder. Feel bad for all the people who only recently obtained cards like this, feel like they hit a milestone in their collection, only to be told that their most recent awesome pull or big buy was a bust.
Proxy a vintage deck and show up to a proxy friendly tournament. Legacy and vintage players are way friendlier towards proxy. We understand the collective struggle. And I have never found anything wrong with an opponent with a whole proxy deck. Even if I have a foiled out whatever deck. It goes without saying.
@@artist91fb a bit unreasonable to ask to suddenly start playing completely different format that is barely played anywhere. i do agree about the community but the amount of opportunities to play vintage in paper is simply too small to be a viable for almost everyone.
@@Le_beaubrun I’d be interested to see a survey of where people play and with whom. From my experience home based playgroups outnumber pick up games 3 to 1, so I’m confused why they are focusing on cultivating a format conducive to a single play style. I could be wrong, it seems like player cultures vary wildly by location based on the wide variety of responses to the ban.
@@Davedave3303 I mean bans dont apply to closed home groups anyways, you can just do wtv you want there. Bans are mostly useful for when you play with new people. Imo those bans will help in this regard to make those experience more fun and smooth.
I wonder what prompted such a big change from the RC? I've been following their updates over the past few years, and they've purposefully pointed out cards they are evaluating for potential bans. They could've easily said something along the lines of, "Nothing yet, but something big may happen at the next quarterly update!" The fact that no one expected this feels like a big middle finger to everyone. I'm curious to see if further communication comes out over the next couple days.
this is the part that pisses me off the most. no one thought these cards were even in the watchlist or anything. just a rando mid summer FU to everyone on the planet.
As someone who owns 3+ Docksides and a Nadu, I really don't feel bad for myself or anyone else. The game pieces were expensive to buy, sure. I'm "out" 150+ CAD now but I was never going to sell anyways. The price of the card only matters the second you cash out, not before and not after. All this really did was allow me to add Fear of Missing Out to my commander deck and a different treasure generator/dice roller to Mr. House. One less generically powerful auto include card makes more room for a more on-theme addition.
In my opinion, those who are mad are the players who got copies of the card at a high price. Honestly, I don't honestly know what to feel with this one. There are still plenty of fast mana cards but these three were prominent and as a casual commander player, I was used to the status quo. Now with this, maybe I can try CEDH now? I don't know.
@@edpaolosalting9116 one of my buddies is mad because he claims these bans completely cripple his mono red cEDH deck. Another friend of mine is mad cause he pulled a full art foil jeweled lotus and never got to cast it
The bannings hurt my collection since I had 4 Mana Crypts, 1 Masterpiece Mana Crypt, 3 Jeweled Lotus, and 2 Docksides. Overall, this stings since I collected them during their release, but overall I do accept this will make games more enjoyable from a non cEDH POV. Now I hug my Ancient Tombs and Mana Vaults more closely since those will start to see a spike left from the bannings.
Mana Crypt should stabilize and still hold some value over time. It's still a legal card in Vintage and it has historical value as well. Jeweled Lotus is going to 0.01 dollars so fast.
As a cEDH player, I'm fuming for two reasons. Firstly, commander is not just a casual format anymore, the RC needs to get more consultation and input from the WHOLE commander community, because what's good for the casual format is not necessarily good for the competitive format. Secondly, I'm fuming that because of that lack of input and consultation from the cEDH community, they've undermined the ability for competitive players to be creative in their builds because this ban has essentially just king made RogSi builds, which is going to drastically warp the cEDH format.
Commander is NOT a competitive format to begin with, its entire appeal is the freedom of choice. I'll keep playing whatever I want and I suggest that everybody does the same.
The golden days of EDH were when people were playing Jarad, Marchesa etc. once a million and one cards were printed with the format in mind, too many people were after the same cards as eachother. Arcane signet is arguably the worst offender, it started turned the 99 into the 98 (cards like sol ring weren’t even played everywhere at that point). Precons hurt the format, Legends started to kill it, Horizons sets having cards designed for a format other than the format originally in mind were the straw(s) that broke the camels back.
This is a valuable lesson for me, I'll cut down on booster purchases hard and proxy every card thats more than 50 cents for my commander decks going forward. It's just not worth it to invest in a collection anymore
@@davidbilich1708 I'm not some investor guy, but why bother buying expensive game pieces or trying to pull them when it goes down the drain like this anyway? I don't wanna sit here in 5 years and go like "I spent 5000 on bucks on this cardboard, now it's worth 500 and I don't even have fun playing with it anymore"
I feel like this was a lesson that should of been learned earlier like when wotc was selling four 15 card magic 30th anniversary packs which were basically proxies for $1k
not gonna lie, if you ever at any point considered dropping 100+ bucks on a base edition card, you really needed to learn that lesson. that's why edh is an explicitely proxy friendly format.
Stores move so much product that they won't have any product on-hand that loses value. Maybe other secondary sellers would have more issues, but LGS won't suffer here, thankfully.
that's just actual general wisdom tho. it's insane to me that magic player somehow think that spending hundreds of bucks for the cheapest version of a an actually legal and widely played card is ok.
So what i got from this bans: 1. The rc needs to be overhauled or replaced. Not because of the bans but pretty much how frequent they do stuff. Lotus, dockside, tithe and all the star players went out of control financially while still being more and more important. There should be monetary bans until wotc reprints stuff. Commander is for everyone but as soon as a staple becomes this expensive to an extend where it really hurts, then they should do something. 2. cEDH Was hurt. Bad. Because they're even more affected by it than us casual commander players or high power casual commander players. 3.cEDH needs an own rc. Other competitive commander formats have their banlists and they flourish. 4. Rc should spend more time listening and less farming views with their priviledges on RU-vid and co 5. I am ok with it if the rc goes on a staple hunt. It would make the game more accessible and more creative. However i don't see that at all with the last announces and their frequency aswell as lacking transparency
Commander players can say whatever they want, threaten this or that, however time and history shows most of the player base will still buy commander product anyway, and WotC knows it.
That's why I've stayed vocal even after quitting. They didn't just lose a customer; they lost an angry customer who won't go away and be quiet about it.
It feels like everyone that has a spine left mtg years ago, all that's left are people that condone mtg 30th, Pinkertons, universes beyond, product fatigue, designed for commander cards, secret lairs etc...
"Man, it's been a while, maybe I could get back into magic and play commander again." ... "Oh nevermind, guess this is my signal to sell everything I can before it all drops."
Missed out on a Dockside literally this past Saturday because I was a little too late getting to the store. So happy that I missed it! Also, this seems insane to me that fast mana is the problem to the RC and yet the win condition of 60% of EDH decks being Thassa's Oracle that they just refuse to touch.
So much gets me angry about these bans is that I've spent the last year or so building into a cEDH deck, and the only fast mana I had for it was Crypt and Lotus. I now don't have a cEDH deck. I was barely hanging on in the pods I was playing and now its too strong for casual pods. The £2K+ i spent, opened and traded into feels wasted and the last year trying to get into a format feels wasted. I have no confidence in the CRC/CAG in how they run the format for cEDH anymore, It feels like were being told that we have to play casually or lose the effort we spent on deckbulding, it shoes that we need more cEDH players on the committee so that they don't kill our format or make our own committee for cEDH The other thing that REALLY gets me angry about this is that WotC knew this was coming for months, and decided to include Commander Masters and Lost Caverns Collector boosters in the Festival in a Box. They knew these bans were coming, and included what would have otherwise been high value product that's now worthless because the chase cards are no longer in the only format that they were legal in. Like squeezing the last few drops out of these cards before they stone cold unplayable.
My jaw hit the floor when I heard about this at work today. The LGS I work at dodged a bullet because we were bought out of all of those cards. (Well except nadu, but there wasn't much value there.) It is legitimately insane that they banned all of these at the same time, and while I agree with the reasoning behind all of them, I think maybe these bans should have been stagnated.
Nadu was just a mistake, so let's ignore that one. The other 3 were all egregious mana accelerants that had one thing that separates them from the last crazy multi turn mana accelerant (sol ring) - they were all near $100 or more. Everyone has a sol ring, almost everyone has multiple, and it's like a dollar rare at this point. Everyone plays it, so everyone can get that crazy turn, but rarely in a 100 card singleton format. And then there's the 3 that were banned. Crazy expensive, hard for the average player to afford, but with the recent reprints to all of them were showing up enough at local game stores to really start causing a problem. And yet they weren't getting more accessible for the average player, all of them literally increased in price after their reprints. They were just getting more accessible for people with money who were beating up on everyone without money. And when playing all of those crazy mana accelerants, the rare "1 in a 100" turns weren't all that rare anymore. I couldn't be happier with these bans, and I'm someone who HAS a dockside that just got banned out of my favorite deck. I'll slot something else in and enjoy better games all around.
Also, by the RC logic, Sol Ring should be banned. Yet it's not, why? Maybe because it's a staple in every commander deck, thus showing the link between the RC and WOTC.
2 of these are fine. Every deck needs a bit of perfect color fixing. Sol Ring is not fine. The creativity is in the other 98 (or 97) cards. But before these bannings it was 95 or even less cards for some people.
I actually think these bans might be in response to the growing acceptance of proxies in the community. With more people willing to accept proxies more people are willing to just jam in super powerful staples like these making the disruptive play patterns they cause all the more likely thus necessitating a ban.
These bannings will increase the amount of proxis because why should a player risk it to spend a lot of money on a blinged out variant of a powerful staple when it can just be randomly banned years after its printing and without warning, tanking its value to next to nothing. This can be a big problem for Wizards!
@@SCKentrol Did i argue? I said that i would not care if the were reprinted and the prise would drop, i bought them because they are pretty and the decks i play them in are mainly foil because i like foils and cool alternate art cards. I am pissed because they did not say anywere that they have lotus or crypt in there crosshair! They mentioned dockside and Nandu so i did not buy them. If they told us at the last update that they are thinking about banning these cards i would not have bought 2 alt art foil lotus and one mana crypt and saved 700 Euros. Since this is the second time, Golos was the first time, that the got me with a surprise banning of cards which were legal for years every new deck i build will be 100% proxy from now on!
A ban list for Commander in general is so funny in general because at most local game stores, you can show up with a full proxxy deck and no one bats an eye (mostly because they too have proxxies). Hell, I played against someone who drew his own card so some of his acorn cards could work.
Important thing that I think is missing is this is the first action we've seen from the RC since Sheldon left. Who knows if Sheldon was the one holding the bans back.
It was definitely the chase reprints that held this back. Who the hell in their right mind would buy a box of Lost Caverns for 140 dollars if there wasn't Mana Crypt and Dockside in it?
@@JakesFavorites cavern of souls is still there, in the main set too. tishana's tidebinder, roaming throne are new cards with value. people bought boxes for baneslayer angels before.
I think the rules committee was in talks with Wizards and Wizards asked them to wait before banning any of these, to allow their products to sell first.
