It amazes me how many people can hold the view of Calvinism, and believe God’s heart is so fickle as to sending people to Hell just to show his full capacity for wrath alongside that for mercy. And the only explanation they give is that “the Bible tells them so.” How sad an understanding of the living Word of God that was given to be a light to the world and lead it to a knowledge of the God of Love
This message is very clear and its seals any arguement that is being preached some people who claim that some people are specially Elected for salvation and others destined to be destroyed. Thank God for you Dr Rogers
Election from the Greek, ekloge - divine selection, elect, chosen. Also, suneklektos - chosen in company with, co-elected, elected together, as from divine selection. This refers to nations and people. In Romans 9:10-13, clearly, it is not just of Israel that God speaks of, as found in Romans 9:24 "Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" Read the chapter to get the context, which Adrian clearly dodges when making his statements about nationalities, not individuals. God Speaks of both. In either case, election is divine selection, not man's free will. Where in the Bible does it say all babies go to Heaven? Where in the Bible does it teach an "age of accountability" and what is that age? Matthew 13 has the parable of the wheat and the tares and Jesus' explanation of that parable. God created all things, including the wheat and the tares. The wheat are His seed, and after it is grown and yields its fruit, is saved in the barn. The tares are planted by Satan, and after they grow, they are destroyed. We are what we are, either wheat or tares. Each seed is of its own kind. The parable does not teach one seed can grow into a different plant, and besides, that would make no sense. Get the context of Romans 9 and you will find that God is in control, knows all things. Our wills are against God's will, even after we are saved. How can we and why would we go to a God whom we are against? Jesus was asked, "How is it we are saved?" Jesus answered and said, "With man, these things are impossible. But not with God; for with God, all things are possible." With man, we cannot be saved. It takes direct intervention from God to save us, and that by grace through faith, which is a gift of God. As is written in Romans 9, He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and on whom He will, He hardeneth." Jesus is Savior of the whole world, that through Him all men might be saved. He who calls upon the Lord shall be saved. The trouble is, by our free will, we don't. None seeketh after God, we all go our own way. There is none righteous, there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Does that sound like nations to you or people individually? Our will never seeks God of our own volition. God says so. Genesis 6:5 - “And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” We all start out condemned, per John 3:18. God saves a remnant, which in itself is mercy and grace, considering at one point, He was ready to destroy it all. In fact, He came close, save for Noah and his family. Think on these things. 1 John 2:26-27.
To believers. Those who do not believe, the Scriptures have no effect. If you get nothing else out of Romans 9, understand this regarding election. God is the potter, we are the clay. Of one lump He makes vessels of dishonor, of wrath fitted to destruction, and of the same lump makes vessels of honor fitted to mercy. Now who is control of what the vessels are, the potter or the clay? If the clay, I'd like to see that. It would put Penn and Teller out of business. This is the simplest way of explaining to us that we are who we are by election according to His purpose. The direct approach is to quote part of John 15:16 - "You have not chosen me but I have chosen you..." By all means, read the whole chapter if you think I am taking this verse out of context somehow. Do that. It'll convince you that this quote is in context with the rest of His teachings from say John 15:11-19 where you know those teachings apply to all believers, not just the disciples, and through v.19. All of a sudden we switch gears and change the context of John 15:16 to mean He only means the disciples? That is what my pastor had the audacity to say, but I hope you see the fallacy of this. Plus, Jesus even repeats Himself in 15:19. I'm not sure where you were going with your question, so going by the topic of discussion, I addressed election.
Reformed Christian I have seen that video. Shoddy scholarship at best. You quote pagans who happened to believe in free will and ignore those who didn't. You also happened to not quote any church fathers who held to free will, and spoke about it in response to pagans who denied it. I wrote 2 long comments refuting your video but you have since removed and shut off comments. That's all very telling.
Calvinism is only true if you isolate and distort certain passages. You must be able to back up a belief with multiple biblical references (especially something of this magnitude) which Calvinism cannot do without distorting and isolating verses. As a matter of fact, as you try to justify Calvinism, you come across much contradiction. Not to mention, Calvinists have very dangerous beliefs such as when the Bible uses words such as all and world, Calvinists believe it means "all elect" or "elect in the world." This is very dangerous as you are molding the Bible to fit your narrative.
Kevin Kennedy there is nothing wrong with the Reformed understanding of election. Your understanding is flawed. You must believe that Arminian heresy or the Free Grace no repentance nonsense
God doesn't predestine people to hell..people are born already destined to hell.. God in His grace and mercy rescues lost and hopeless people through His sacrifice
Yes, we are all born in condemnation, which is why Jesus said in John 3:17-21 - "17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." Verse 17 tells us we are not to be condemned. Verses 18-20 tell us that we are condemned already, so knowing this, Jesus did not come to condemn that which is already condemned. The fact stated here and in John 3:16 is that if one believes on the Son of God he shall be saved. If one does not believe, they remain in their initial state - condemnation. It does NOT say that man makes his own choice whether to believe; only that those who do believe shall be saved. Verse 21 says that the believer's works of truth are made known (manifest) that those works are wrought in God, or come from God, not man. Man's works are no good. The good that a believer does comes from God, not ourselves. Romans 7:18 - “For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good, I find not.” Our wills are no good. Even now as believers our will fights against the will of the indwelling Holy Spirit. This is one of the reasons we are told that all Scripture is suitable for correction, etc.
No one sent themselves to Hell... If a fly flying was a damnable offence for a fly and it was worthy of eternal condemnation on account for flying, did it send itself to Hell or was it sent to Hell by God because it acted according to its nature? The same is true for man who is spiritually dead, as he is by nature a child of wrath and worthy of God's eternal condemnation...
i struggled with this for awhile.he really breaks it down to know the truth of the scriptures...Praise God...i allways wondered why people that think different about predestination seem unhappy and you dont see the joy of Christ in them.i hope more of them can watch this to not struggle on this point anymore and be able to grow in Christ on to other things!!!
Quite the contrary. I know God chose me because He said so by the very fact that He caused me to believe in Him and He told me so in His word. Free will is no assurance. Anything one can talk you into, someone else can talk you out of. God caused me to believe. I was not talked into it. I heard, I read, and in His timing, I believed. Now, with the indwelling Holy Spirit, I am sealed unto the day of redemption. He will never leave me nor forsake me. Where do you see uncertainty in what I say? It is in what you say.
Thank you Lord for your faithful servant Adrian! Even after his death, his legacy still screams the teaching of absolute Biblical Truth! In a world full of theological confusion, even in God's churches now, the voice God gave you still rings out with with the love of God and the truthful interpretation His Word. Thank you! :)
Brad W. this man was preaching correctly until he got to salvation salvation is not something you asked for it is something that is freely given to you in order to receive salvation you have to believe the gospel and then God seals you with his Holy spirit on till the day of redemption nowhere in the Bible ever can God ever save any sinner if he asks Jesus to save him they must believe that he is the savior and putting your faith in Christ alone that is what saves you when you believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, when you have to ask Jesus to save you that's an indication you don't believe he has saved you!
Paul Gross - The Bible tells us that JESUS said HE would in no wise cast out any who come to him. *John 6:37 - "All that the FATHER giveth me shall come to ME; and him that cometh to me I will no wise cast out." The word "cometh" indicates you go to JESUS - so how would someone "go" to JESUS then? Also - what do you think ( "All that the FATHER has "GIVEN" ME means?)
Paul Gross - I think that your "samantics" of going to JESUS won't save you is silly. If someone believes the GOSPEL and goes to JESUS in prayer and asks JESUS to forgive him for his sins - (YES I SAID SINS) - I do not believe that JESUS CHRIST our SAVIOUR would say ----nope can't do it - because they asked me to forgive them of their sins - they messed up --- they did it wrong - said forgive me --- come on now.
You can go to our SAVIOUR and ask HIM to forgive you - whether it is for unbelief - (which is a sin), or for sins - etc... FORGIVE ME JESUS - PLEASE - I HAVE CHANGED MY MIND - THIS WORLD IS EVIL - I HATE MY SIN - I HATE DEATH! (THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH). The whole reason JESUS was Crucified on that CROSS was to pay the WAGES of SIN!!! Don't fool yourself - SIN will not be in HEAVEN!!! GOD HATES SIN!!!
So when JESUS said - "All those who come to ME I will no wise cast out" - you think JESUS is going to say - nope - can' do it - you asked me to forgive your sins - now you can't be saved! You blew it! Come on now - life is but a vapor - encourage all peoples to RUN TO CHRIST AND BE SAVED!!! During the "Tribulation" - do you think that people are not going to say - (PLEASE SAVE ME JESUS - I'M SORRY!) THEY WILL BE SCREAMING FOR JESUS TO SAVE THEM!!! (What will JESUS be saving them from?) From DEATH - BECAUSE THEY ARE SINNERS!
Watched a handful of these on romans 9 by Calvinists and non, and this is a quick and precise one. Very well done. Calvinists are so eager to defend their beliefs.....why? Congrats you're the elect. Yay for you. Tell everyone else how special you are and unlucky we are.
+Jon Who says He damns them all. We start out in condemnation John 3:18-20. He saves His elect from condemnation. So few are saved, many are not. Matthew 7:13-14 That is predestination.
The verse is not about free will. It is about BELIEF. No matter what I show you apparently, you will reject it. You believe in churchianity not Christianity. Blow off the brainwashing and read the Bible on God's terms. 1 John 2:26-27
Read the parable of the wheat and the tares and Jesus' interpretation of it in Matthew 13. God created all things, including the Devil's tares. They are predestined to hell. Read it for yourself. Read Revelation 17:8. Also here's the following: Matthew 13:10-17 - “10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, ‘Why speakest thou unto them in parables?’11 He answered and said unto them, ‘Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.’” Even those who desire to understand, to them it is not given unless it is so from the Father: “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” - John 6:44 and John 6:37- "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." and John 6:65 - “And he said, ‘Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." Do you believe man or the Scriptures? 1 John 2:26-27
Well, we can't both be right, given what we each believe. Why do you want me off the thread? I give almost all Scripture. Why should that offend you? You've called me names and then call me arrogant. You don't represent Christ as a good ambassador when you say those things. Is it you don't want to fellowship with someone who doesn't happen to agree with your beliefs? We are told to reason between ourselves, not striving. Read our conversations. They are not very good. I was led here by an Arminian, I did not purposely seek the thread out. While I am here though, I speak of what I learn from Scripture, whether it agrees with you all or not. But I want to be perfectly clear: I have not deliberately antagonized anyone! A few may have gotten mad, but that is their problem, for I did not insult anyone; certainly not like I have been insulted. I've said nothing to apologize for, and I don't understand yours and Metawhoever's attitude.
If man does NOT possess free-will then God CANNOT in any sense of JUSTICE reward or punish a man's actions or thoughts. IF the action did not come about from within the wells of human passion and desire, then man is merely an object which does not bear the image of God... If a man cannot CHOOSE to do good of his own free will then God would be unjust in rewarding obedience. If a man cannot CHOOSE to do evil of his own free will, then God would be unjust in condemning such a man. In order for a man to be guilty of breaking God's laws, the decision of disobedience MUST originate within the heart of the man condemned. God would be sadistic and cruel to punish those who did not possess the ability to respond to the call of repentance and would be MONSTROUS in forever condemning such a soul to eternal damnation. Such a god I reject. The idea that someone more heinous than Hitler could not only exist but run the known universe makes life itself evil and a cruel joke...
Brandon Chai Amen to that! It is very sad... What is worse than the wasted reasoning is attributing the aspects of a sociopath to God. This kind of thinking will be judged HARSHLY by God I can tell you that much...
Dave G indeed, we can plan our steps, but God will determine His way. As a non Calvinist, I don't have any issue with this verse. We can live our lives as self serving as we want, but God determines the destinies of all based on our actions. Choose ye this day whom you will serve, as for me, my house will serve the Lord. It wouldnt make sense for God to tell use to choose right? Since we have no power to choose in the first place? John 10 to 13 . 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. Here is your context. It is talking about how being born again is a supernatural event. We do not cause it, because it is from God, if you receive Him! It is not talking about us having the will to go to heaven or hell! The topic at hand is concerning being born again. I say this with love when I tell you now that you need to read the text as it is.
Brandon Chai AMEN! It is talking about the born again reality which does not originate from human effort, the work for salvation is done by God alone. It is OUR FAITH that gives us ACCESS to GOD'S OFFER of SALVATION by GRACE. The gospel is presented and the choice to accept lies before us with the power needed for deliverance by the grace of God. We don't obtain salvation through our own works or religious observances, it is 100% the free gift of God and is offered to EVERY PERSON. God is NOT WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance. Right there is God's will(wanting all saved) but the ball is in our court now... The attonement that was necessary has been made, now what are you going to do about it?
Really? Jesus said it was His will that all men be saved. He also said He came to do not His own will, but that of the Father which had sent Him. The Father's will is that the Son save all that the Father gives Him. Since many are damned, you are concluding that God failed. And you call me a heretic. You don't understand the Lord at all.
David I don't think you understand what took place 2000 years ago, when the new covenant was being established. The ones that the Father gave to Jesus, were the ones that already belonged to the Father. They feared Him and so they were ordained to eternal life. Psa 25:14 The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant. Jhn 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. Jhn 17:6 ¶ I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: *thine they were,* and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
@@stratcat79usa Jesus is the way the truth and the life, and no one shall come to the Father except through Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. Not the other way around. Since Jesus willingly came and live out the law perfectly and willingly died for our sins , he was the perfect sacrifice for our sins. So that whosoever believes in Him may have eternal life. God wills for us all to be saved and repent from our sins, but like the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. If you led that horse to the water and it didn't want to drink, would you consider that failing? We are futile without Jesus. He gives us hope.
Calvinism is biblical error God does not predestine anyone to eternity in the lake of fire There is no eternity in the lake of fire The wicked are burned to ashes The saved are given immortality
Revelation 21:8 /20:15 / 19:20 /20:13-15 Matthew 18:8/ 25:46/13:42/25:41 Mark 9:47-48 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 2 Peter 2:4 Might want to read your Bible more
This is an illustration, showing that everything is made by God and all things are to work for the good of God, nothing is a surprise to Him and nothing is out of His control and all things work together for His good, He does what He wants, and He sticks by His word. The wicked are to be damned, (unless they repent and turn from their ways and to Jesus and are cleansed from their sins and made new, then they are no longer wicked but a new creation in Christ), because He said so, not because God created them to be destroyed, if that were the case He wouldn't have sent His Son down to earth to be killed so we may live, so whoever believes in Him shall have everlasting life. He didn't say whoever believes in me will have everlasting life if they're predestined. But even the wicked will be sent to hell forever, out of God's will because there is no place for the wicked in heaven, and even those who are in hell will bow and declare that Jesus Christ is king. No matter what God's will is going to be done, nothing is a surprise to God, and nothing is out of His control. So yes, even out of wickedness, which He knew was going to happen, He will use that for good.
It is not Calvinism. I saw no quotes from Calvin. I read these quotes in the Bible. This is not about Calvin. It is about whether you believe the Bible. Evidently, you do not.
For whom did Christ die? Did Jesus die to merely make possible the salvation of all men or did He actually secure the salvation of a select number of His creation known as the elect? Read Ephesians 1: 4-7 and you should understand sovereign election by the sovereign grace of God. (Eph 2:8-9) Faith is a gift that we must receive. You as a sinner, can not manufacture this faith that saves. It's the gift of God. It is the faith of Jesus Christ that justifies us and gives us peace with God. Please open your Bible and read (Rom 5:1; Gal. 2:16) If it sounds unloving for God to choose only some to salvation then you do not know the extent of your sin and wickedness. You think God owes you salvation but you are an enemy to God by your rebellion and sins. You do not understand mercy. By God's justice you deserve eternal damnation (Romans 3:23; 6:23) and will not come to Christ that you might have life. The Arminian God is a false God that is dependent on the so called free will of man. Is this free will of man above God and more powerful than the sovereign God of holy scripture? By no means. God says I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." Romans 9:15 "...so it is not of him that willeth or him that runneth but of God that showeth mercy." vs 16 As one brother has well said: "Jesus Christ BORE the transgression of His people. The sins of His people were IMPUTED to Him. Jesus Christ actually became GUILTY by imputation. He remained perfect in His character and conduct, but He was counted guilty because sin was imputed to Him. 2 Corinthians 5:21 says that Jesus Christ was actually MADE SIN for us. Now let's get into the atonement. You can already see by the passages in Leviticus and Isaiah how imputation and atonement are connected. If Christ atoned without imputation, then he must have either atoned for no one or atoned for Himself. We know that both of these are impossible. In order to make atonement, Christ must be the SUBSTITUTE and REPRESENTATIVE of a certain number of people. What is ATONEMENT? It is reconciliation. What does it mean to RECONCILE? To RECONCILE means "to restore to friendship or harmony." Jesus Christ, when He suffered, bled, and died, restored friendship between God and those for whom Christ died. How was this friendship restored? Jesus suffered the just punishment for the sins of all His people; God's wrath was poured out on Jesus; and God's wrath was appeased. Let's turn to Romans 5:10-11: Romans 5: (10) For if [while] being enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life; (11) and not only [so], but also glorying in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we now received the reconciliation." This reconciliation is atonement and the gospel that most Arminians have heard is a false gospel that leaves salvation in the hands of a sinner who is blind, dead and unable to believe and repent except the grace of God in the day of power grants repentance and faith to the unbelieving sinner. May you begin to seek God if you are still lost and living in darkness and sin. Unless you begin to feel your lost condition and see your many sins over the course of your life you will continue in your sin and rebellion to be condemned for your unbelief. "He that believeth NOT IS CONDEMNED already because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:18)
S. Nathan Let's have a brotherly discussion about Calvinism. I believe it to be a false doctrine. Would you care to look at some of the proof texts together? I enjoy these types of discussions. God bless
Let's not call it "Calvinism," since it is what the Bible teaches, and not man. Free will doctrine is Arminianism because it is the teaching of man and not the Bible.
I'll give you an amen in what you wrote. Let's not follow John Calvin or any other man unless they are following Jesus Christ. All Bible teachers have some error because their understanding of scripture is not perfect. Calvin was an excellent theologian but he was not without error.
Romans 9:15 - For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. Romans 9:18 - Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Romans 9:15 is an echo of Exodus 33:19, but of course Calvinism makes God seem partial and biased in regards to whom He has mercy and on whom He hardens. Exodus 20:5-6 refutes Calvinism's abuse and eisegesis of Romans 9:15, 18. God hardened Pharoah's heart because his heart was already hardened to begin with. There were instances when Pharaoh hardened his own heart along with his officials and there were instances when God specifically hardened Pharaoh's heart. God's condition for mercy for any person in the New Testament church age is to believe in Christ to be saved first, then God's mercy is applied afterwards. God sets the CONDITION for receiving mercy. Man can will to SUBMIT to God's conditions/terms for mercy and God's mercy is dependent upon man's willful obedience and willful faithfulness to Him. 1) Exodus 20:5-6 - 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And SHEWING MERCY UNTO THOUSANDS of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 2) Exodus 34:7 - 7 KEEPING MERCY for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation. 3) Deuteronomy 5:10 - And SHOWING MERCY unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments. 4) Deuteronomy 7:9 - 9 Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and MERCY with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; 5) Psalm 103:17 - 17 But the MERCY OF THE LORD is from everlasting to everlasting UPON THEM THAT FEAR HIM, and his righteousness unto children's children; 6) Romans 11:32 - For God hath concluded them ALL IN UNBELIEF, that he might have MERCY UPON ALL.
Great message. I only wish Adrian would have mentioned 1 Tim 4:10. For, therefore, we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially of those that believe.
Please remember context. Paul was writing to Timothy, a believer. Paul discussed himself and Timothy. "Specially of those that believe" means specifically of those that believe. The old English usage can be a bit misleading in the KJV, though I trust it rather than any other version of the Bible. Free will choice is not mentioned at all. It is often written that Jesus came to save the world, to save all mankind. That was His will. But, He also said He came to do not His own will but the will of the Father which hath sent Him. He says that He came to save all that the Father giveth to Him. If Jesus were sent to save all people, then He failed. This is blasphemy. God is love. Love never fails. "37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and he that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." - John 6:37-40 When we believe that Jesus was sent to do the Father's will, which is to save those whom the Father has given Him, we see that Jesus does not fail to do just that. Those who see and believe are those who do just that. It does not indicate choice of man nor free will to choose to believe. The problem with Arminians is they presume that we already have the capacity to choose to be saved. This is error. "3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. 6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. 7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!" - Matthew 18:3-7 First we must be converted before we can become as little children. Only God can convert us from death unto life, from condemnation unto no longer condemned, reconciling us unto Himself. Only then can we humble ourselves. It is necessary that the world have offenses, but woe to them who bring the offenses. This is part of God's plan from the beginning. "64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him." - John 6:64-66 First, Jesus knew from the beginning who would not believe and who would betray Him. Therefore, He also knows from the beginning who will believe. This is predestination. Man cannot come to Jesus unless it (faith) is given to him from the Father; a gift of God as spoken of in Ephesians 2:8-9.
@@stratcat79usa Grace through faith is the gift. Not just faith. Paul was asked, What must I do to be saved? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you WILL BE SAVED. Faith before regeneration. Election is not salvation. Judas was elected. Pharaoh was elected. Israel is Elected and Jesus Christ is Elected. Predestination is the predetermined destination. It is mentioned in Genesis 1:31. Everything after Genesis 1:31 is God reconciling the world back to Genesis 1:31.
You know who else says God doesn't mean what He says? I'll give you 1 guess. Genesis 3:4; "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:". No really, God loved Esau (but just a little less), that's why He made sure he didn't despise his birthright and sell it for a bowl of pottage. That's why He made sure he married the right kind of wife. The first born Cain, Ishmael, Esau represent the flesh, the second born Abel, Isaac, Jacob represents the new birth, the second birth, being born again, born from above, born of the spirit, regeneration, the elect, children of the promise, spiritual Israel. The flesh CANNOT please God, it lacks the ability. God HATES the flesh. The flesh wars against the spirit. Only those who walk after the spirit can please God, the flesh is worthless. God favored Abel, Isaac & Jacob, that's right God plays favorites. And God despised Cain, Ishmael, and Esau. Why? Because it pleased Him. He doesn't owe us an explanation. Why doesn't anyone have a problem with "Jacob have I loved"? Why would God love Jacob? He's no tower of virtue that's for sure. It's because for His purpose, God chose to be merciful to Jacob. Don't be deceived by these snakes in nice suites who stand behind pulpits and say "God doesn't mean what He says". They are anti-Christ, blasphemers that contradict God's word. When God says He hated Esau, you can take that to the bank. If you can't worship that God because you think He's not fair, join the crowd that departed and no longer walked with Jesus at the end of John Chapter 6:66,67; "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?" Hey, it's only your eternal destiny, no bigs (big deal). Or sit in the pew at your favorite 501c3 community center (you call it church) and continue to be lied to by these false prophet, ravening wolves in sheep's clothing. Donate your tithe (before taxes of course) so they can deceive other baby Christians.
very simple answer to this question if I want to go to a top of a building and jump off of it I can if I want to throw myself in front of a car I can this is called free well Adrian Rogers is spot-on and he uses biblical criteria to back up his claim many confuse the gospel and make it difficult and unfortunately and impossibility for many who think they cannot have any hope in Jesus Christ
Right, none are righteous, so left up to our will, all of us would perish. Many are saved by God grace through faith according to His election, not by our works. The offer is made to the whole world, who all have our backs turned against God. God, by election and grace, turns those whom He will toward repentance and salvation.
Yes, Jesus died so that all men might be saved. Such does not happen however, so does Jesus fail because the whole world is not saved? Since none seeks after God and many are indeed in and going to hell, how is anybody saved, since our wills are enmity against God in the first place?
This is rightly dividing the word of truth. Many of today's so called Calvinist have erred in a twisted misunderstanding of these passages of God's word. Anytime you cause scripture to be contradicting itself you are in error. Rev 22:17
Ron Coleman So, this is your idea of rightly dividing the word of truth... let somebody else tell you what it means. I am not a Calvinist because I never read him. I used to believe we could choose salvation just like you do, but then as I was reading the Bible, being challenged by free will believers along the way, I found from the Bible that God chose us from the foundation of the world. Read Matthew 13, the parable of the wheat and the tares. Read Psalm 65:4 or John 15:16. There are many other teachings, not just verses but teachings in the Bible that teach we do not have the will to choose salvation. God forces whom He has chosen from the foundation of the world, and that's what the Bible says. I don't care what Adrian says, except that he is misleading people with false doctrine on this topic.
David Down Deu 30:19 Jos 24:15 Please explain these from the same God. Your viewpoint causes scripture to contradict itself which proves your viewpoint incorrect. God has chosen to let you believe or not believe of your own will. You make choices every minute, God in his sovereignty has created man in this way. He has chosen all mankind "should" be saved 1 Tim 2:4. But we must yield to his will which is not necessarily initially our will. But God through the power of the spirit by the hearing of the gospel, transforms,"converts" the heart which is the true seat of "your will". 1 cor 1:21 And just so you know, I was once of your opinion but have since refuted that as false. Bless you Sir in your walk with God and may the peace of the Lord Jesus keep you by his grace.
Kay Bear Well, nobody is going to know, if scripture is not supporting what you claim. Read Psalm 65:4 and John 6, John 15:16, oh, heck, reread the Bible. We don't need preachers telling us what to believe. The Holy Spirit does that. It is interesting that Adrian did not mention (at least not in context) Romans 9:15-18 and 22-24. Everything is predestined, as God is sovereign. Believing in free will to salvation is not believing in God's sovereignty. It is like calling God a loser. Thy will be done in earth as it is in Heaven. Not our will... especially with something as important as salvation. Those verses I gave you say God makes the choice as to whom He shall save. I don't criticize all of Adrian's doctrines, just this one. Snide remarks just prove where your heart is, and it does not sound like Jesus. I have heard snide remarks, vial and vitriol, but nothing Christ-like from people who disagree on this doctrine with me. That tells me something right there. And for those of you who call me a Calvinist, I never read John Calvin or others to come to the conclusion I came to; just the Bible (KJV).
David Down Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.>>>>*** this verse can be read; Jerusalem, who kills the prophets cause I wanted them to even though I sent them to you! How often I wanted to gather your children together,,,,the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings.....NO not really I LIED.....Cause I MADE YOU UNWILLING!!!!! **** The will plays some part now don't it. WE have to have a choice or we are NOTHING...AND God made me>>>>so that makes me more then nothing. AND GOD made all people...the blood of the Cross "was" and 'IS' sufficient FOR EVERY SINGLE MAN AND WOMAN from time before the Cross to now some 7 billion right now "IT is finish" means NOTHING MORE can be done....just Faith in what has been done...Faith plus NOTHING...we can not earn any more love....LOVE was enough....consequently IT is that love that will permit one to go to hell on their own 'free will' Cause even though the debt was paid IT needs to be '''propitiated.''' Kind of the like the government having monies sent a side for a 'project' you use it or lose it...IT'S there but you have to ask for it....WELL THE blood of Christ is there for a debt but you have to ask for it...do not tell me that your GOD creates (makes) just so He can send one to hell. WE all have life and death before us....CHOOSE LIFE! again a choice. For that matter I would then become pro-choice....after all would your all loving GOD send one who cannot discern their left hand from their right to a lake of fire for eternity?
The scribes and pharisees memorized their Scriptures, yet look what Jesus called them in Matthew 23. Nobody is perfect, not even Adrian. You are saying that because he studied for 40 years that he knows it all? He may have been impressive, but no one is infallible but God.
+Sheldon Harris that doesn't mean shyt and why u calling people sinners bro everything u judge u yourself need to be judged in.. and there is now NO CONDEMNATION FOR THOSE WHO ARE IN CHRIST JESUS it DOES NOT! SAY no condemnation for those who obey the law for we are dead to the law and now married to JESUS. if the guy you just called a sinner is actually saved and IN! christ then you shoULd NOT! CALL WHAT IS CLEAN UNLEAN
The only predestination is unto heaven. Every single person born in Adam has been born with a sin nature and is a rebel and enemy of God fully deserving of hell and fully desiring to go anywhere that the God of the Bible does not reside. I hope that Adrian Rogers is now in heaven and if so I am certain that he understands the doctrines of grace fully now. What a gracious God we have that He has even predestined one hell-deserving sinner to be adopted into His family and spend eternity with Him in heaven. Rogers, like all arminians, has it completely backwards.
What kind of a question is that? Everything God does is just and right. You can be grateful that the Bible does not read, "Jacob I hated and Esau I hated." That is exactly what we deserve. Jacob was a deceiver and a sinner just like all of us. Romans 9 makes it very clear that God chose him before he or Esau were even born. There was nothing in either one of them to make them worthy of being rescued from their sin. The issue is not with Esau I hated. The amazing grace of our merciful and loving God is that we read, "Jacob I loved." Why is it that you do not ask "Did God choose to love Jacob."? I will tell you why. Because you think that it is unfair of God to choose one and not the other. Like Rogers you have fallen into the trap of believing that God is obligated to save everyone. The miracle of grace is that God has chosen to save even one.
S. Nathan Nowhere in Genesis 25, Malachi 1, or Romans 9 does it say God choosing Jacob over Esau had anything to do with salvation. Context tells us the idea is God choosing Israel over Edom. Romans 9 even starts telling us the context is Israel. The reason I asked the question was quite intentional, and you didn't answer it. Did God choose to hate Esau? I don't believe God is obligated to save anyone, even if they have faith in Him. I believe scripture makes it clear that God wants to save all and at least initially loves all. I wouldn't expect any less from a perfectly loving God.
God wants to save all?! If that is true then all would be saved. Our God is never thwarted in His plans. Scripture is very clear of that. You do understand that our God is not only a perfectly loving God but that He is also a perfectly Just and Righteous God also. Also dealing with Romans 9 read once again verses 10 through 13 which state, "And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." Did you miss where God states that He did this prior to their birth so that His purpose according to election might stand? What do you think the word election has to do with? Context is very clear that this is dealing with individuals and not with nations.
S. Nathan I do understand God is perfectly just and righteous along with being perfectly loving. This is why I believe God can simultaneously love all and desire all to be saved while only some actually get saved. You guys like to believe in two wills, don't ya? One revealed and one hidden? Well I propose two wills too. He has a loving will (love for all, desire for all to be saved), and a just will (only those who believe will be saved). I think this makes way more sense given the scriptures. Here's something else to consider, Paul quotes Genesis 25:23 in Romans 9:12. What's interesting is that in that very same verse we read, "Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body;" So, yeah, it does seem like the context is nations. I get what you're saying about election, but do realize that to elect means to choose; "elect" and "choose" are used interchangeably in the New Testament when the Greek word "ekklektos" is used. It doesn't necessitate salvation. Israel was God's elect people in the Old Testament because He chose them over Edom, and chose Isaac over Ishmael, and chose Abraham out of everyone else.
As opposed to the first lie Satan gave to mankind, when he told Eve she would not die from the forbidden fruit but that her eyes would be opened. They could be as gods, even having the power to determine their eternal destiny. This, as opposed to Jesus when asked by His disciples, "how then can we be saved," He said, "With man it is impossible, but not with God, for with God all things are possible." I have not read Calvin and all my postings contain Scripture, not quotes from Calvin or anyone else. Free will is taught alright, and here is what the Bible says, that no one seeks after God, none are righteous, none does good, no, not one. How can we claim to come to Jesus of our free will when God says no one does? Yet there are those who are saved. How? With God all things are possible. If your name is in the Lamb's Book of Life written from the foundation of the world, you are or shall be saved before you die. Those not in that book are going to hell. "For Jesus knew from the beginning who would not believe and who shall betray Him." Sounds like predestined to hell for those people. To have foreknowledge, one must be in control of all things, without exception. This is why God is called the "Lord God omnipotent reigneth." Any exceptions to this and He is no longer omnipotent and His foreknowledge is no longer 100% reliable. Free will doctrine has a form of Godliness but denies the power thereof. From such, turn away. God is Almighty God and omnipotent. Election, predestination, etc. are taught in the Bible, as Jesus said He saves all whom the Father hath given Him. Read His prayer in John 17. He prays not for the world, but for those whom the Father has given Him, not just the disciples but future believers as well. If you don't believe the Scriptures and would rather let someone tell you what they mean, you probably aren't getting the truth. That's certainly the case with this doctrine anyway. The thing I really hate is that this has become a hate war between Arminians and those who believe in election (divine selection). 1 John 2:26-27. From this verse, believe the Holy Spirit as He teaches the Scriptures and don't let anyone even have the opportunity to tell you what they mean. If you believe them, you already know what they mean. Salvation begins with the Father who gives to His Son those whom He will, and all who are given to the Son are then saved by Him. John 6. No conditions, no decision on man's part is even remotely implied.
This is the most mixed up representation of the good news and biblical teaching I have seen in a long time. So many verses pulled out of context, misquoted, or ideas injected in passages that are not even stated in the context of those passages = all for the purpose of formulating a certain doctrinal position, much like Jehovah Witnesses do with the many verses they pull out of context and interpret to mean something not even stated. It is very hard to even begin to unravel these poorly formulated ideas that have been presented here.
I presented the teachings of the Bible, and have given you copious quotes which were quite clear regarding our will and predestination. Go on your little tirade, Michael. You're slick enough to reinterpret the Koran to read like the Bible.
Dear David... All I can tell you is that you fall short in communicating the spirit of the biblical message and twist it, add to it, take from it, to formulate something that it does not actually communicate as a whole. Anytime you take pieces and parts from the whole and put the fragments together as a puzzle piece to fabricate a picture that is not communicated as a whole, then you create a philosophical outlook or a doctrinal position that isn't the actual intent of the complete message.
It is amazing how many times Adrian Rogers says "That's not what it means at all." So he takes what is clearly being said in the passage and tells you: that's not what it means. I'm sorry, but that IS what it means. All these passages mean what they say, not what he twists them to say. I know that reform folk take passages you believe say everyone gets a choice and say: "that's not what it means". But please look up the word translated "Hated". In Malachi 1:3 it is sane', and means... (drum roll please): to hate. In Romans 9:13 it is miseo, and means: to hate (ta da). Look it up for yourself, the man is flat out lying to you. Yes, God love his people, in a special redeeming way, that He does not offer to those reprobate whom He hates. It does not mean He doesn't treat them with love in this world as far as things like: family, money, talent. But He isn't giving them eternal life, or a relationship with Himself. What God does is righteous/good, not because you think it is good/righteous, but because God does it. God destroyed the inhabitants of the pre-flood world save 8 souls, would you call that fair/good? Yes, because God did it.
I agree with you, but there is one point about the word "hate." It also means to "love less." It is written that God hates with a perfect hatred. When we are told that if do not hate our mother, father, kinfolk, even our own life and follow Him we are not worthy of Him. This is where "hate" means to "love less." Put simply, we are to make Jesus our first love.
I agree with you also David, in that, in comparison to our love and obedience to Jesus it looks like hate to others, when you won't go along with things they consider okay. Especially in the good is evil & evil is good situation we find ourselves in today. May God keep us in these trying times of "do what thou wilt" epistemology.
Fuzzy Counsellor This is how I see Rom 9..... Romans 9:7-22, I believe to be discussing those chosen for the Messianic lineage. This special class of people were given special treatment from God. He was merciful to their rebellion, unlike how He dealt with other nations. Paul begins the chapter with a look at these promises that were given to his people… Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. ……Paul is looking at the history of the Israelites of whom he has continual sorrow, in that they have not believed in the Messiah. He then goes on to make a comparison between the Israelites of his day and those to whom these promises were given, the word “neither” being the comparison….. 6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. The “seed” being the central focus of all the promises, that being Jesus Christ……. Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice. Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Paul then goes on to show through whom this promise would come….. Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. The phrase “The elder shall serve the younger” is to signify the blessings and favouritism of God upon those whom the promise (Christ) would come….. Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger. Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; The phrase “the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth”, is to continue with the comparison he made in vv6 & vv7. There is however a major difference that Paul later discusses (pertaining to unbelieving Israel)…… Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. The election that takes place now requires repentance, where as the gifts and calling which the fathers received, did not. Therefore Jacob was chosen within the womb, whereas we are chosen by faith. Both are void of works. Romans 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. The phrase “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated”, shows how God fulfilled His promises towards Israel….. Gen 22:17 ……. and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; This phrase is taken from Malachi chapter 1… 2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, 3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. 4 Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever. What was it that Edom did to deserve such a fate?…… Eze 35:15 As thou didst rejoice at the inheritance of the house of Israel, because it was desolate, so will I do unto thee: thou shalt be desolate, O mount Seir, and all Idumea, even all of it: and they shall know that I am the LORD. Had Israel done any works of righteousness that they deserved a better destination? Let's look at what was spoken about Israel a little further on in Malachi….. Mal 1:6 A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name? 7 Ye offer polluted bread upon mine altar; and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? In that ye say, The table of the LORD is contemptible. 8 And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts. God gave special favouritism towards Israel, because of the promised Messiah….. Jer 30:11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.
Evan U, thank you. You may not realize this but I have heard all of this before. I would have to disagree with your interpretation, of what Romans 9 is trying to relay. I know this is what you've been taught, and I am sorry you think that is what it means. The point of this section of scripture is: why does most of Israel not believe in their Messiah? But the reason you try to make it about nations, or service, or Messianic linage is so you can believe that God wants to save everyone. Did He want to save everyone when He chose only Israel to know? Did He want to save everyone when He destroyed the world in a flood? Or Sodom when He rained fire and brimstone on them? Or Egypt when He drown them in the Red sea? But if you want to believe that God wants to save all, but fails, you go right ahead. Thanks again.
The reason why I am an Armenian is simple and true. It is NOT because, as Armenians are often accused, because I believe in "work-based" salvation or because I believe that every person rightfully "deserves" a chance at salvation or because I want every part of God's will to be "fair" and acceptable to my prideful human mind or because I want to "boast" of my choice to be saved or ANY of the other presumptuous and antagonistic claims given by Calvinists who claim to be all about God's graciousness. The reason why I believe in free will is because it is simply not in God's NATURE to do what calvinists say he does. They always say that it's according to his "good pleasure" or "For His glory" and that we shouldn't question him, but I'm not questioning him, I'm questioning Calvin, and my question is this: which is more important to God: saving us, or glorifying himself? It seems to me that if Jesus was willing to come down to earth to get beat up and spit on to save sinful people out of love, then it would be for all people. The only possible way to explain why people go to hell is if God allowed them to decide that for themselves out of UNSELFISH GRACIOUSNESS, and THAT is why I will NEVER be a calvinist. Predestination simply contradicts God's nature and character as revealed in Scripture itself.
Dave G I'm not sure why you put Calvinists in quotes because this is clearly what they teach and they are not ashamed of it: 1) John Piper says that God predestines people to hell to make us more grateful for our salvation. 2) the Westminster Confession says that God predetermined the Fall of man rather than foreseeing it and allowing it, and we still get the blame. 3) ALL Calvinists believe that God only saves some people even though He could save everyone. Some of them admit that they can't explain why, while others just come right out and say that God simply doesn't love everyone the same or that He loves to glorify Himself more than to reunite with His children. I could go on forever
I know this doctrine because it glorifies God. Further, I don't twist it. Your free will doctrine is false. You try to defend it as I show clear teachings of election in Scriptures. Free will is insinuated by false teachers. Glorifies man.
+David Down - NOT true. You limit God and His ability and majesty that way. Just because God is sovereign over all His creation does not mean He does not rule and reign and delegate a government of free moral agents.
Michael Pearcy No, that answer is incorrect. If God is omnipotent, and He is, then He must be in control of all things, including salvation. Otherwise, you are denying the power of God by saying that until or unless one comes to Jesus to be saved, He doesn't know yet what they will do. Besides, Jesus says "No man can come to me except it be given to him of the Father." Scripture continues, "From that time many of the disciples went back and walked no more with Him." Read further and you find only the 12 apostles remained. Jesus asked them if they would also leave. One replied, "Where would we go? Thou art the Christ, the Son of God." How would they know that and not the others who left? Why did the others leave after Jesus said that statement referring to it being given of the Father? They wanted to follow Jesus, but after He made that statement, they took a powder. Could it be that in spite of their desire to follow Him, they did not receive "it" from the Father. What is "it"? According to John 3:16, belief in Jesus, which of course would mean belief in His teachings and that includes that of Him as the Lord of all. The apostles evidently did not yet believe He would rise from the dead, once He was put to death, because when He did, it took some convincing from the women to go see for themselves. Then they believed and were saved according to election. John 15:16 and 15:19 leave no doubt as well, as though He was speaking to His disciples He meant that for all believers; otherwise, what the hey? They get chosen but we have to make the choice ourselves, and if we don't, we are toast. What's the deal there? Some just God. Now don't go saying that I said God isn't just. He certainly is. "All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me, and He that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." Now as long as you don't add to that verse or any other, there is no mention, not even an inkling that man is making a choice at any point. It starts with the Father giving whosoever He will to Jesus. All who come to Jesus, which is all that the Father gives to Him, SHALL, not may or could or if they choose, or anything you can dream up, but shall come to Him, and He that cometh to me, not he who then chooses to come to Him, but simply but being told already that he shall come to me, so all of those given to Jesus wall come to Him, and He that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. Same thing with "No man can come unto me except the Father which hath sent me draw him, now so far it in no way says or implies that the Father draws everybody to Jesus, and I will raise him up at the last day. All that the Father draws to Jesus (not everyone) Jesus will raise up at the last day. Those saved are only those given to Jesus from the Father. Does this include those whose father is the devil? NO! Does Jesus know who those whose father is the devil are? Of course. For Jesus knew from the beginning who it was that would not believe and who would betray Him. From the beginning. Why was He able by His foreknowledge able to have said foreknowledge? He is omnipotent! That means all-powerful, Almighty God, for those who don't know what "omnipotent" means. Man's will is not to seek after God, that we all go our own way -all of us. Our mind is enmity AGAINST God. That's our free will. We can't come to the Father first either. " I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No man comes to the Father but by me." So now what? We can't come to the Father but first through the Son, and we can't come to Jesus except it be given to us from the Father, except the Father draw us, all that the Father giveth to Jesus shall come to Him. We are officially stuck. We don't even want to come to God according to the Scriptures, so why did those disciples go back and walk no more with Him? Why did the apostles stay? Why didn't the others continue with Him also? Anybody? In Matthew 13, when the disciples asked Jesus to explain the parable of the tares, why did Jesus remove the disciples from the multitude and bring them into the house to explain in private? I thought, from what you keep telling me, that Jesus would want all of them, multitudes, all, to hear, learn, and be saved? Jesus taught the disciples only, privately, the meaning of the parable. Then He said, "He that hath an ear, let him hear." How is it that some evidently do, some don't, but again, not by some sort of free will decision? It is given by the Father who hears, who doesn't, who the disciples are and who then are the multitudes. That folks is what you call election, and that is not a Calvinist word, it's in the Bible, and does mean "divine selection". The Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
David Down you formulate a doctrine by using much language and words and paste them together into a neat little package while ignoring numerous other passages and context. I am still waiting for the one single verse which shows your doctrine that specifically says "Jesus died for the elect!" Wheras i can show you dozens and dozens of verses that contradict that (unfindable verse).
When he prays "God I pray that you'll open hearts" isn't that a violation of my "free will" what if I don't want my heart opened won't God honor that isn't He too much of a gentleman to do that???
If you don't want it then you resist.... Opening a heart doesn't mean salvation it's to understand the love and glory of God. Why wouldn't you want to know the terms of both sides? Im assuming ur either a Calvinism or atheist and this was rhetorical or sarcasm
But this is not what these texts mean. They mean only that God is granting to these groups-both Jews and Gentiles-the opportunity to believe and repent by taking the gospel to them. Whether individual Jews and Gentiles actually repent is their own choice, but God has granted them the opportunity. This is also how Philippians 1:29 should be understood, ., that God has granted the Philippians the opportunity to believe in Jesus. I believe this is also how 2 Timothy 2:25 should be understood, though it need not be referring to initial conversion repentance as such.
Romans 9:19-20 - 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? The Bible is clear that God can be resisted - Acts 7:51. The Pharisees resisted Jesus in Matthew 12:24 by falsely accusing Him of performing exorcisms by the power of Satan and the Scribes resisted Jesus in Mark 3:22 by also falsely accusing Him of performing exorcisms by the power of Satan. Jonah resisted God. The unbelieving Jews in John 10:33 resisted Jesus by calling Him a "mere man" despite His many miracles/healings in their presence. The unbelieving Jews in John 12:37 resisted Jesus despite His miracles/healings in their presence. The Israelites in the Old Testament resisted God time and again as God repeatedly referred to them as "stiff necked" people. Calvinists will eisegete this passage in an attempt to try to prove that God does as He pleases on a whim and in an arbitrary and capricious way and that man has no right to question God. There are numerous instances in the book of Jeremiah where the Israelites QUESTIONED God and asked why He did what He did to them and God answered them through the prophet Jeremiah: 1) Jeremiah 5:19 - 19 And it shall come to pass, when ye shall say, WHEREFORE DOETH THE LORD OUR GOD ALL THESE THINGS UNTO US? then shalt thou answer them, Like AS YE HAVE FORSAKEN ME, and SERVED STRANGE GODS in your land, so shall ye serve strangers in a land that is not your's. 2) Jeremiah 16:10-12 - 10 And it shall come to pass, when thou shalt shew this people all these words, and they shall say unto thee, WHEREFORE HATH THE LORD PRONOUNCED ALL THIS GREAT EVIL AGAINST US? OR WHAT IS OUR INIQUITY? OR WHAT IS OUR SIN THAT WE HAVE COMMITTED AGAINST THE LORD OUR GOD? 11 Then shalt thou say unto them, BECAUSE YOUR FATHERS HAVE FORSAKEN ME, saith the Lord, and HAVE WALKED AFTER OTHER GODS, AND HAVE SERVED THEM, AND HAVE WORSHIPED THEM, and have forsaken me, and have not kept my law; 12 And ye have done worse than your fathers; for, behold, ye walk every one after the imagination of his evil heart, that they may not hearken unto me: 3) Jeremiah 22:8-9 - 8 And many nations shall pass by this city, and they shall say every man to his neighbour, WHEREFORE HATH THE LORD DONE THUS UNTO THIS GREAT CITY? 9 Then they shall answer, BECAUSE THEY HAVE FORSAKEN THE COVENANT OF THE LORD THEIR GOD, AND WORSHIPED OTHER GODS, AND SERVED THEM.
First, free will ist not a biblical term. But you may call it so, because it is obvious that man is responsible for what he does. There can be said more on this, but I like to give a short solution. That is, that simply both exists: free-will and predestination. Gods action in saving a lost sinner can be determined and acknowledged in various extent. Accepting Gods all-knowing ability leads to predestination. He created the world and knew, what will happen and what people will decide in their free will. Surely he knew, how to save this world at the end. I think, we cannot imagine, what this will be (1Cor. 15). He can do more than we understand.
Armenian and Calvinist views differ, but they agree on the truth of the Trinity, the truth that Jesus is the Lamb of God who died on the cross and shed his blood for the forgiveness of sins. We will see both groups in heaven
Predestined for hell? Absolutely! John 6:60-66 - 60 “Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, ‘This is an hard saying; who can hear it?’ 61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, ‘Doth this offend you? 62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not.’ For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, ‘Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.’ 66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.” Arminians would be those that went back and walked no more with Him.
Calvinism perverts many passages, twisting the meaning to suit their doctrines. A common one is John 6:44. “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:44 The word "draw" in verse 44 has two meanings based on subject and context. One meaning is literal, the other "figurative" or "metaphorical" in nature. Verse 44 is dependant upon the entire statement being made to understand its proper context. Many theologians stop at verse 44 and produce doctrines from a verse taken out of context. Before we look at the entire context, let's define both the figurative/metaphorical and literal definitions of the word "draw". DRAW: [gr. Helkuo](Strong's #1670 greek) 1. (literal)= forcefully pull, drag off. 2. (figurative)= draw by inward power, lead, impel, direct, guide. Let's look at verse 44 with 45 to get the full message. “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” “It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all TAUGHT of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.” John 6:44-45 Verse 45 makes it very clear that the Scriptures are what the Holy Spirit uses to "draw" people to Christ. The Scriptures "lead, impel, direct or guide" people to Christ. It CANNOT mean to "forcefully pull, drag off" because this would imply violation of free will with no possibility of resistance(ref by> Acts 7:51, 2 Tim 3:8, Deut 10:16, 2 Chron 30:8). If the action of drawing were forceful, every single person who read the Scriptures would be saved. There are many examples however of people who have read the Gospels and reject salvation... "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Romans 10:17 "It is the SPIRIT that QUICKENETH; the flesh profiteth nothing: the WORDS that I speak unto you, THEY ARE SPIRIT, and THEY ARE LIFE. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." John 6:63-65 God does not give you the faith AND the grace to believe in Him. God's offer of grace is available to ALL men who put THEIR FAITH in HIS GRACE. According to Acts 7:51, 2 Tim 3:8, Deut 10:16, 2 Chron 30:8 it IS possible to resist the Holy Spirit which further strengthens this point. Let us look at just one good example of this resistance in scripture... "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." Acts 7:51 Jesus told the pharisees that they search the scriptures for eternal life and the scriptures point to Him. BUT, just like Acts 7:51, the pharisees RESIST the Holy Spirit's guidance/drawing... "And the Father himself, which hath sent Me, hath borne witness of Me. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape. And ye 》have not His word abiding in you《: for whom He hath sent, {Him ye believe not.} Search the >scriptures
Quite a big discussion here. What about the possibility that God really saves all men one time? „Eternity“ really means ages, not infinity. Look at the greek „aion“. Scripture gets more logical. No need to „explain“ certain verses to justify an oppinion.
“God does not create people to damn them!” Ok, Adrian believes that God knows everything. That includes in his theology the identities of those who will choose to believe and those who will not choose to believe. His objection applies to himself. Why did God create those whom He knew would never choose to believe? Is God obligated to create them? Why did He create them to damn them? What’s the purpose? The Bible says God created them to demonstrate His wrath, power, and justice. Adrian says God created them to be eternally bummed and frustrated. See the difference?
The Bible teaches that it is God's will for all men to be saved and come to know the knowledge of truth. We all have free will, and we all have the opportunity to come to Christ and be made anew, it's just a matter of if they do or not. The Bible says whosoever believes in Jesus Christ will not perish but have everlasting life. It doesn't say whoever is chosen and believes will have everlasting life. God has a plan for us all, it's just a matter of if we submit to His will or not. Who are we to question why God does what He does, He is perfect, just, and loving, and He is in control.
IF free will is not in the bible -why did God put a tree for them not to eat of the fruit of that TREE. cmon its free will. not total free will but with the abilitry to Choose.
So, we are saying that man's will is greater than God's? Or that we can surprise God by disobeying Him? He elects whom He saves, the rest are predestined to perdition, as the wheat and the tares parable explains. If He can say that God is sovereign, why does he make exceptions to that sovereignty which is not sovereignty. Paul is a perfect example of election, not free will. This preacher is slick, but wrong on the doctrine of free will.
Eric B Answer: Simply by believing in free will, which is not taught in the Bible. If the Bible meant that the whole population He desired to save, this would imply that God's will is less than man's, in that most people are going to hell as we know from other Scripture. God, all-knowing, knows who these are and that is His sovereign will. Free will is not taught, as Jesus straightens this out in John 15:16-19 when He tells the disciples, "You have not chosen me but I have chosen you ..." where evidently the disciples thought they chose to follow Jesus of their own will and Jesus corrected them on that doctrine. So anyone who believes the Bible teaches we have a free will to choose or refuse salvation is mistaken. We have a will, but it is at enmity against God. Read Romans 9.
David Down Calvinism is very sad. It overly strains and abuses scripture to promote doctrines that fly in the face of common sense. If by their fruits you shall know them, simply study the life of John Calvin and what he and his forced upon those who disagreed with them. It does little good correcting Calvinist. I'm left only tolerating them.
Robert Macauley Sounds like you have a personal problem, there Robert. I never read Calvin. I used to believe in free will until I read the Bible. I still do, but not when it comes to choosing salvation. John 15:16 and Psalm 65:4 among a plethora of others is very clear: God is in control of everything. Common sense? Where do people commonly end up, Robert? In the lake of fire Revelation 13:8 and 17:8. If giving you scripture that cannot be refuted doesn't sway you, you are in a bad situation. That I am abusing Scripture is a cheap cop-out. And your personal attacks show weakness of thought.
Robert Macauley Predestination antedates Calvin by several centuries. It is a tenet of Reform theology that had its clearest expression from the time of Augustine of Hippo. Calvin merely revived that aspect of election i.e. God chooses some and passes others by. That's what Rom. 9:15-18 teaches. There is no "equal opportunity program" with God -- never has been. He extended mercy to Noah and his family but showed no mercy to the millions of others who perished in the Flood. And through the millennia, He has extended merciful grace to some but not to others. The Reform doctrine of predestination does not actually advance a doctrine of double predestination. The elect are indeed, predestined to eternal life through a Divine decree of mercy established in the secret counsels of God. Contrariwise, the unbelieving merely receive what they deserve in judgment for being Adam's corrupt seed (cf. Gen. 2:17 ; Rom. 5:12) apart from any predestinating decree on God's part.
The Bible clearly teaches Human Libertarian Free Will, it's just that not all humans will possess it. And, 'free will' does NOT mean: 'the power of contrary choice'. This is NOT the biblical definition of human free will. Jesus gave us a two-part definition of human free will in Jn. 8:31-38. He taught that a free will is: 1) a will that never assents to any errant propositions; and, 2) a will that never wills to do anything other than that which is good and well-pleasing to God (esp. with respect to His Law). By this biblically-derived definition, Jesus was the freest human being to ever walk the earth. 1) Jesus did not assent to any errant doctrines, teachings, propositions...etc.; rather, He combatted them with truthful propositions, teachings, doctrines...etc.(He was an Apologist: a defender of truth against error); and, 2) He committed no sin, and only did that which was good and well-pleasing to the Father. Would anyone deny that Jesus was "free"? I hope not! Would anyone say that Jesus possessed 'the power of contrary choice'? to sin or not sin; to assent to error or not? I hope not! Jesus was immutably impeccable (unchangeably sinless)! We see that even issue of Christology are affected by one's definition of 'free will'. If we're not deriving the definitions of our terms from Scripture, then we risk falling into the philosophically speculative ether of error; which is exactly what synergists do when they maintain that human 'free will' means: the power of contrary choice. The glorified saints of Christ will possess true human freedom (not, the power of contrary choice): 1) they will never again assent to any errant propositions; and, 2) they will never again will to do anything other than that which is good and well-pleasing to God. Jn. 8:31-38-- "So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” They answered him, “We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, ‘You will become free’?” Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. I know that you are offspring of Abraham; yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you. I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.” Jesus talks about "words". Propositions are simply 'words put together that mean stuff'. Jesus "word," that is, His "words," had meaning; they had what we would call 'intellectual content'. One either assents that His words are true, or they don't, and instead call Jesus a liar; there is NO in between; no neutral point. "The truth will set you free". There is 'freedom' in truth (knowing it and assenting that it is in fact true, and not erroneous). If one holds to error, then they are not 'free'; they are enslaved. The first sin of Adam was in believing a lie from the serpent to be true. And, since the serpent's words, "you will not surly die," were a direct contradiction to what God had said ("you will surely die"), when they assented to the serpent's words, they automatically DISBELIEVED God's words (they called God a liar). Unbelief of what God had said was the first sin. Before pride, and before the actual partaking of the forbidden fruit. Hope this helps. *Soli Deo Gloria*
The only thing I don't like what this man said was to ask God to save you eat that's not the gospel the gospel is believe in the gospel and you shall be saved if you still have to ask him to save you then you're not believing that he has saved you
that doesn't even make sense, if GOD was referring to Jacob as nations, then why mention that "before they were born"? Obviously GOD is referring to the particular person, GOD saves a select few people, that's the doctrine of election. GOD doesn't send people to hell, rather people go to hell because they hate GOD, all humans deserve to be condemned. But GOD deliberately chooses only those He will.
+MetaKnight964 So you don't believe the Bible. Romans 9:22 is part of it. Where in the Bible does God say we have free will to choose eternal salvation?
how can free will be a myth. if it indeed is then You cannot even say that free will is a myth!! cause you chose with your mind to say free will is a myth. so without free will you cant even say anything with certainty cause you have no WILL.!!!
Ephesians 1:1-6 - "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." - Paul is addressing the saints and those faithful in Christ Jesus. Such are chosen in Him from the foundation of the world. Such are predestinated unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the pleasure of His will. It is by His will, not the will of man, who are chosen for salvation; not by our works, as He hath made us accepted in the beloved. We don't accept Him; He makes us accepted in the beloved. It stands to reason that since there are those chosen by God according to His pleasure and will, not ours, that there are those not chosen for salvation as well, again not by our works but by election. See Romans 9:21-24 below. Romans 9:21-24 - "21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" - God is the potter and we the clay. He made vessels of honor as vessels of mercy. He made vessels of dishonor, vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. Both types of vessels are of Jews and Gentiles. There can be no doubt that these verses teach that there are those who are predestined for hell, according to verse 22. Those saved are predestined according to verse 23. There is no secret message hidden here. It is quite clear. It was hidden until Paul was made apostle to the Gentiles to reveal the dispensation of grace, or reconciliation to God in the fulness of times, which is obviously now. Refer to Ephesians 1 in your Bibles.
Ephesians 1 actually fits the corporate view of election better than the Calvinist one. All those in Christ are chosen to be holy and blameless (v4), and those in Christ are predestined to adoption (v5). Adoption in this sense is speaking of glorification (Romans 8:23), not simply salvation.
I like Adrian Rogers and he has much good teaching to impart. But the sad truth is that even preachers are human and Adrian shows himself to be a bit of a block head in this sermon because he is clearly twisting the Scriptures and presenting an interpretation that he finds more personally appealing than its actual message.
2 points. When it says God hardened pharaoh's heart it means that the spiritual consequence of sin is hardening of one's heart toward God. Anyone of us who reject God continually will develop a hardened heart. One might say God established that this will be, so in essence we can say God did the hardening but in truth our rejection caused the hardening. Second point. If a football coach announces to all the high school boys that he is recruiting players for the team and all who are interested meet at the gym after school. Say for instance, there are 300 boys in high school and only 150 show up. Well, from what group will he elect his team? From the ones who showed up of course. All were invited but only some acted on the invitation and from those election was made.
So you are a 5 Point Calvinist? God selected Israel as His chosen people through whom He could show the benefits of following Him and the disasters of being lead astray to seek their own ways. But the Jews were not His children and no one is unless he accepts Jesus as his Savior and is born again. Prophecy can work hand in hand with man's will for God knows the mind and heart of man just as a father knows from God's word and from experience the temptations and tendencies of the young. But a loving father does not put curses on his children or condemn them to tragedy to further any kind of agenda. God said compared to Him we are evil and He will give us good things. Remember Jesus said He came to give us abundant life. Apparently, I have a different view of God than you. Tell me, are you one of those God has selected for honor or one He has selected for dishonor? Can you know this side of the grave? What a burden to bear knowing you could be selected for hell. John 3:16 is just as applicable today as when it left the heart of the Father.
The premises you express are incorrect. First, I am not a Calvinist; I speak directly from the Scriptures only. The nation Israel is God's chosen nation. As Paul wrote, "Not all Israel are of Israel." This means that by bloodline, they are all Israel, but of spiritual rebirth, God chose those whom He chose according to His purpose, for everlasting life. All are sinners. Why save some and not all? John 3:16 has nothing to do with will; free or otherwise. It teaches one simple fact: If you believe in Jesus, you shall not perish but have everlasting life. It teaches that one must believe, and to know what it means to believe in Jesus, we must rightly divide the word of truth to find what Jesus means by "believing on Him." Satan and the devils believe in Jesus but do tremble. Yet their fate is sealed unto doom for eternity. "Whosoever" means just that: Whosoever. It does not imply free will; it means just what it says, no more no less. Believers shall come from every nation, kindred, tongue, and people because Jesus says so. All believes are divinely chosen (elect) from the foundation of the world because Jesus says so. "63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him." - John 6:63-66 Also, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." - John 14:6 So we are stuck. We can't come to the Father but by Jesus, and we can't come to Jesus except it be given to us from the Father; except that the Father draw him. "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." Man's will is not mentioned at all. All the will and actions are those of the Father and the Son. We, by grace alone, receive eternal life, "we" being the elect of God. Paul writes to only the elect, as follows: "1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." - Ephesians 1:1-14 "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Those who hear the Gospel and believe (as is stated above, according to election and God's purpose) receive the saving faith and the Holy Spirit. As for prophecy, if man's "free will" were part of this salvation process, those who "choose" salvation would inevitably have their lives changed from what God had planned for them to what God must adjust in His plan to fulfill His promise of the gift of eternal life because we become holy and without blame. Say, what? Nowhere in the Bible does it record that the apostles, prophets, and any others in the Bible chose to become prophets, apostles, etc. of their own volition. They were commanded by God and did what they did according to God's purpose. Predestination and election by God are according to His purpose according to the Scriptures I gave you from Ephesians 1. There can be no other conclusion. This is not from John Calvin, but from God Himself. Either you believe Him or you don't. As for knowing whether I am an elect of God, I know that I am because I believe in Jesus Christ who is the Son of God and all that He says and teaches. The Scriptures are written so that we can know now, as believers, that we shall ever be with the Lord. "10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." - 1 John 5:10-13 "16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words." - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 How could we comfort one another with those words, and how could we know in this life that we have eternal life, if we choose of our free will? Suppose we choose later to leave the faith? This happens all the time by free will believers, but cannot happen to the elect. Clearly we are taught that we cannot lose our salvation, once we have obtained it. Or is it that once we choose life by our free will that we suddenly lose our free will so we can't leave the faith? This not only is proven false, it is not taught in the Bible, either. So, yes, I am one of those who believes God, including where He says that we may know that we have eternal life. How do I know? A child can understand it. I believe God. I believe all He says, teaches, would teach me if I lived long enough to learn all that the Bible has to teach, and I know this is in my heart, and I know by the word of God that He and He alone can and does judge the heart as to who are His children and who are of the devil. There are children of God and children of the devil. Mark 4:10-12 - "10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. 11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them." Obviously, the multitudes were not meant to be converted, just those He chose to teach: His elect. "42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." - John 8:42-47 Jesus is speaking to the Jews here. Read the parable of the tares and Jesus' explanation of it in Matthew 13:10-30 and 34-43 Again, when He interpreted the parable, He sent the multitude away and brought the rest into the house to teach His elect privately. Why not teach the multitude as well? Election, my friend, election. We simply cannot cause our evil will to turn to God for salvation of our own volition because God says so for both Jews and Gentiles. "9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." - Romans 3:9-12 Our will, all our wills, do not seek after God, and none of us are good (until we who are the elect receive the Holy Ghost). Then it is God in us who is the good. After the rapture, we shall be raised up incorruptible, but now we are in corruption.
Whosoever comes to the party will get free ice cream. So if you choose to go you get, if you don't choose to go you don't get. I don't understand the distinction you are trying to make. You may not be Calvinist but to believe some were chosen to be saved and some not is calvinistic in teaching. I certainly believe God has to draw us to Himself by His Holy Spirit but I believe all are drawn but not all elect to respond positively. That is free will. Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved, Romans 10:13. When we are born again we become new creations, all things pass away and behold all things become new, 11 Cor 5. You can't just get unborn and reborn and then unborn, etc. If God has already chosen and people have no choice then He wants robots. Why follow Matt 28 for God has chosen? You have completely eliminated man's choice. Satan does not believe like a Christian believes. Christians rely on and trust Jesus for salvation. Satan knows God exists and is powerful but has never bowed his knee to Christ. A Christian has. I believe God knows who will respond but He does not orchestrate some to respond to His wooing and some are written off before they are born. He is the potter and we are the clay. A good analogy but no good potter ever started out to make something for dishonor in the sense he wanted to destroy it after it was made. He may not do the best job but he reuses the clay. He doesn't give up on what he started. God continues to mold us as shown in Romans 12:1-2. God is not cavalier in His dealings with man. Man can and does thwart His will but they have the opportunity to be bent to His will if they choose to do so. For many people you offer no hope or peace but a terrifying future in the name of Christ. Jesus came to give us life abundant. You think you have yours so to hell (literally) to those that don't. Such a pity to the gospel of grace.
Jesus said He came not to bring peace, but a sword. God says He makes, of the same lump, vessels of dishonor fitted to destruction and vessels of honor fitted to mercy. He makes them as such. You don't believe God. I supplied you with the word of God, and you fail to receive it. Your free will doctrine is just plain false, and anyone who can't see that has either let others tell them what the Bible teaches or doesn't care what the Bible teaches. I let the Holy Spirit teach me His word per 1 John 2:26-27. All this BS about Calvinists this and that is just plain BS. A smokescreen. I never quoted Calvin. Never read him. If he said what I quote, it's because he believed God also because I quote God. The ignorance you people display with the teachings of God on this topic is staggering.
Well, we read the same scriptures as you and the Holy Spirit tells us something different. Do you honestly believe you know everything about the scriptures. None of us do and that includes you my brother. Adam and Eve had a free will choice to make to either believe God or believe the devil. They decided to go with the devil but they didn't have to.
So if you quote Scriptures teaching predestination and election they are Calvinist. If you believe in free will salvation you are a true believer. No matter what God teaches. And here is the clincher: Show that God predestined from the foundation of the world who the Father gives to the Son for salvation clear as day and depending on who you hear from, you are demonized by these believers who do not believe. I get better understanding from atheists. They grasp the truth better than many of you. They may still not come to Christ, but then I have doubts about many who claim they did. And many will be at the white throne saying they preached in His name and are cast out. Self deceived with their own Jesus because they rejected the truth of the real one. They believed man and not God. 1John 2:26-27
Yes it does. Our free will is to not seek Him, not one, but that we all go our own way. AGAIN I ask how do we choose to be saved by free will when God, clearly describing our will says we don't seek after and go our own way? Could it be as Jesus taught His disciples, you have not chosen me but I have chosen you? And again He says But because I have chosen you out of the world... Read John 15:11-19 and check the context. What He teaches is for all believers, not just the disciples.
You found the truth and twisted it into a lie. I have shown, without trickery or CALVIN the truth of this doctrine. How do we seek God if none seek after Him? If we all have this light, we are all saved. You have everything twisted around. God does not sit on His throne, not knowing who will come to Him and who won't or He would not be in control or have foreknowledge. This is where you have the appearance of Godliness but deny the power thereof. His foreknowledge exists because He is Almighty, omnipotent, as in the story' already written, we are simply playing it out. To be a son of God, one must be born of God. “12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” - John 1:12-13 Get that? Not by blood, our will, or of other people's will, but of God. If that doesn't spell it out for you, forget it. By the way, the quotes I give? They're from God, not Calvin. This hateful labelling of people is stupid and untrue.
Address my previous comment before moving on. It gives Scripture on being born of God, not being saved by ours or anyone else's will. Address this first. Don't just bounce onto another Scripture.
Well There are a lot of good arguments for and against.. The gifts and calling of God are without repentance... But. We wil put of this vile body and put on a body like unto His Gorious body... Praise His name for Hisfaithfulness...
All are condemned to Hell because of sin and unbelief. Only by Grace are the elect saved. Our response does not merit grace. All are dead in trespasses and sin, until He awakens dead men and intervenes.
Dave G I wandered for 30 something years...with a 'faith' that was in vain. When I was awakened, I finally saw Christ on that cross, crucified on my behalf, in my place. And raissed to life because He *is* the Life. All the 'good' decisions I might ever make do not make me worthy. Only He makes us worthy...with what He accomplished. I like how you praise Him to share in that grace. Me too brother...the size of grace, how great the size!
Well Dave that's simply incorrect! Why did Jesus Plead with the Pharsees to come to Him. And MANY did. read the Gospel of John on this. Also ALL thru scripture God Grieves over people to come to him.Oh Jerusalem how I long to gather you but YOU were not Willing. I can give you many more such statements in scripture.. HOW bout Revelations the SPIRIT says Come,Come an drink of the water freely. Epesians says we are SAVED by Grace, Thru Faith,and Faith comes how Dave? by hearing. Yes Spirtually no man can gain heaven by any works BUT we CAN use our choice to TRUST in Christ to receive the free Gift.Faith is no gift in that scripture. GOD tells man to REPENT so there is the Will.You mixing up GODS Soveiegnty and mans free will,We are made in GODS image an have choice -GOD gave us that and tested it by setting a TREE! God ultimately decrees that Whosoever believes in ME ,I will no way cast out. This is why I left calvanism and a man Calvin who called his own Doctrine Dreadful and Horrible. in fact the major majority of early reformers did not believe in limited atonement.
Consider the logic of the view that God knows for certain (= predetermined) precisely how we will use our freedom (= freely determined). We are Free and Yet Predetermined because: (1) God knows all things, including the future (Isa. 45:10; Ps. 147:5). (2) God knew from eternity that Jesus would die on the cross (Acts 2:23; cf. Rev. 13:8). (3) Thus Jesus must die on the cross. (If He had not, then God would have been wrong in what He foreknew. An all-knowing [omniscient] God cannot be wrong in what He knows.) (4) But Jesus freely chose to die on the cross (John 10:17-18). (5) Therefore, one and the same event was both predetermined and freely chosen at the same time. The same logic applies to divine predetermination and human free choice in either salvation or condemnation. Consider the following: (1) God knows all things. (2) Whatever God foreknows must come to pass (i'e'' is determined). If it did not come to pass' then God would have been wrong in what He foreknew An all-knowing Being cannot be wrong in what He foreknows. (3) God knew Judas would betray Christ' (4) Therefore, it had to come to pass (i.e. was determined) that Judas would betray Christ. The logic is flawless. If God has an infallible knowledge of future free acts, then the future is completely determined' But what does not follow from this is that (5a) Judas was not free to betray (or not to betray) Christ. This is because there is no contradiction in claiming that God knew for sure (i.e., predetermined) that Judas would-freely (i.e. with free choice) betray Christ. (5b) Judas was coerced to betray Christ freely An act cannot be both forced and free at the same time and in the same sense. Coerced acts are not free acts, as is clear from both the Bible and good reason. Scripture uses phrases like "under no constraint" and "authority over (one's) own will" (1 Cor. 7:37 NASB) or "not under compulsion, but voluntarily" (1 Peter 5:2; 1 Cor. 9:17 NASB). Free acts are acts of "consent" and "would not be… by compulsion but of [one's] own free will" (Philem. 1:14 NASB). At a minimum, freedom on earth means the power of contrary choice; that is; an agent is free only if he could have done otherwise. Further, good reason informs us that if someone is forced against his will to commit a crime, then he is not responsible for it. For example, if a three-hundred-pound muscleman forced your hand on a loaded gun and pointed it at someone else and squeezed your finger on the trigger, you would not be responsible for the fatal shot in a court of law.
Nothing can't be foreknown except it be under complete control. God knows all things because He is in control of all things. He created the sinners, but did not commit the sin. Nothing can go out of God's control because God is in control. Psalm 65:4 says He chooses and CAUSES those whom He has chosen to come unto Him. Jesus says that "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me and He that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." He says "No man can come unto me except it were given to Him of the Father." Those are actions, not just foreknowledge. This may help: Romans 7:18 - “For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good, I find not.” "17 For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, 'Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.'18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.19 Thou wilt say then unto me, ‘Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?’20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, ‘Why hast thou made me thus?’21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" - Romans 9:17-24 These are actions of God's predestined control over His creation, specifically man. The vessels of dishonor are fitted to destruction. They are made for damnation so that God could show His wrath on them for the sake of the vessels fitted for mercy. A child could understand this. You haven't because you miss out on the omnipotence of God. He is in control of all things from everlasting to everlasting, so naturally He knows all things. If He weren't in control, He couldn't have flawless foreknowledge; but He does because He is.
David, You toss out so many different philosophical issues and ideas I just can't keep up... You say: “Nothing can't be foreknown except it be under complete control.” Again you inject your reasoning and do not simply rely on stated biblical revelation. This is pure conjecture on your part. Consider the truthful logic of how God knows for certain (= predetermined) precisely how we will use our freedom (= freely determined). (1) God knows all things, including the future (Isa. 45:10; Ps. 147:5). (2) God knew from eternity that Jesus would die on the cross (Acts 2:23; cf. Rev. 13:8). (3) Thus Jesus must die on the cross. (If He had not, then God would have been wrong in what He foreknew. An all-knowing [omniscient] God cannot be wrong in what He knows.) (4) But Jesus freely chose to die on the cross (John 10:17-18). (5) Therefore, one and the same event was both predetermined and freely chosen at the same time. The same logic applies to divine predetermination and human free choice in either salvation or condemnation. Consider the following: (1) God knows all things. (2) Whatever God foreknows must come to pass (i'e'' is determined). If it did not come to pass' then God would have been wrong in what He foreknew An all-knowing Being cannot be wrong in what He foreknows. (3) God knew Judas would betray Christ' (4) Therefore, it had to come to pass (i.e. was determined) that Judas would betray Christ. The logic is flawless. If God has an infallible knowledge of future free acts, then the future is completely determined' But what does not follow from this is that (5a) Judas was not free to betray (or not to betray) Christ. This is because there is no contradiction in claiming that God knew for sure (i.e., predetermined) that Judas would-freely (i.e. with free choice) betray Christ. (5b) Judas was coerced to betray Christ freely
Jesus first of all is God, so free will isn't an issue there. Further, He was sent by the Father to do the Father's will. He and the Father are one. Jesus made all things, as He is the Word, per John 1. God rested from all His works on the seventh day. Now, time plays out as man perceives time, which is a creation made by God. Eternity has nothing to do with time, as it is from everlasting to everlasting. Having said that, in the mind of God, where the reality of things exists, all things are done. The book of life is finished. Now we are going by the book. Revelation 17:8 says the Lamb's book of life was written from the foundation of the world, and those not found in it go to perdition. All who are in that book go to Heaven. Our names must have been written in the Lamb's book of life FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. God does not add names to it as people "get saved" because the names must have been in there from the foundation of the world. We have a will, but not a free will to choose salvation. In fact, it is a slave to sin, as I already showed you in the Scriptures. It is no good. When Jesus was asked how is it we can be saved, Jesus answered and said, "With men, these things are impossible, but not with God; for with God, all things are possible." Jesus said that "No man can come unto me except it be given to him of the Father." We cannot come to salvation without direction from the Father to do so, and all who receive it shall be saved. Nobody would be saved except by God causing us to come to Him. I would much rather that God force me to come to the Son for salvation than to go my own way, which would be by the broad way leading to destruction. You make it sound like it is a bad thing that God "forces" us to be saved. How Absurd! “12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” - John 1:12-13. It does not say "To as many who accepted Him..." but that received Him. How do I say these are God’s elect? Because they were born not of blood (inheritance), nor the will of the flesh (our own will), nor of the will of man (by anyone desiring that another be saved), but of God (by God’s will, not the will of man). 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.64 But there are some of you that believe not.’ For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.65 And he said, ‘Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.’ 66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.” - John 6:63-66. We are spiritually dead. Only God can raise the dead, physically and spiritually. A corpse can do nothing until or unless God, by His own choosing, gives it life. Why did many of Jesus' disciples go back and walk no more with Him after He made His statement in verse 66? It was not given to them of the Father to come unto Jesus and they were convicted by the Spirit that they were not of God. Only the 12 remained, even Judas because his time to betray Jesus was not yet but imminent. John 3:6-8 - "6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.’” We can no more choose to be born again than we can control the wind. Predestination is unalterable. Free will if it existed would always be altering the course of events. They can't both be true any more than we could have light and darkness in the same place at the same time. Election is part of predestination. Election, as I showed from the Greek, is divine selection, and I gave from Scriptures, is taught in the Bible, not free will. We are told to make choices, but they are already predetermined. Sin is predetermined that man commit it and not God. With all I have given you to show you these things from Scripture, you still don't believe we are what we are, either of God or Satan. If God's will was to save everybody, He would because He can; yet, His will be done in earth as it is in Heaven. Many are going to hell. Did Jesus fail? Is He a liar? Obviously there is no universal salvation. The only possible answer that adds up with the Bible is election: divine selection. Free will doctrine is an invention of man and not God-given. That God would choose some and leave the rest of us up to our free will would be cruel, not an act of love. God destroys the children of the Devil, and saves all His children. That is love and justice.
There is too much to reply to here... So many things wrong makes my head spin.... 1.) RE: Rev 17:8 You say: Our names must have been written in the Lamb's book of life FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. God does not add names to it as people "get saved" because the names must have been in there from the foundation of the world. My reply: ??? I am not claiming that God “adds names!” I have already made that point perfectly clear (or so I thought)... This, once again, is pure conjecture on your end that is influenced by your predisposed doctrine. What I do claim is that God already knows (foreknowledge) those who will repent and turn to Him through the influence of God’s spirit of grace! Why can't you get that God already has foreknowledge of what you will do tomorrow or next week or ??? The “Lamb slain before the foundation of the world” is not, in some sense, literal but foreknown (anticipated) because Jesus died in time, not in eternity. Names “written in the lambs book of life, before the foundation of the world,” is already a foreknown (predicted) conclusion from eternal God’s perspective. Jesus said, "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world” (past tense). This clearly indicates what is already foreknown (expected) by God - We see that Jesus later said “I go to prepare a place for you!” (future tense) which is a continuation of a projected, anticipated event through the foreknowledge of God to fulfill what has already been foreknown (Romans 8:29 says “For those whom he FOREKNEW he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son..) To draw a conclusion, that out of the foreknowledge of God, one must necessarily link it together with predetermination is only a conjecture that is influenced by someone’s personal pre set notion or philosophy.
2.) You say: "Sin is predetermined that man commit it" My reply: You make some false assumptions.. Just because God foreknows, doesn’t mean He instigates and is the author of evil. Yes, God fore-knows all things because He is an eternal being and has infallible fore-knowledge of past, present and future all at once. He doesn’t “look down a tunnel of time” because He is an eternal being. He is not dependant or does He exist in time. What He knows He foresees, and what He foresees He knows. Everything He knows and foresees will come to pass. God is not held within the limits of time, God knows and acts from all eternity. There is no sequence in His actions. Whatever He decided to do, He decided from all eternity. Because God knows something will exist, it will exist. He has perfect knowledge. I am not arguing against the Sovereignty of God including His control over everything in our universe. God is the supreme king in our universe and, according to His good nature, makes decisions and turns the events of history through the choices / decisions He alone makes... My point is obvious and I know it makes far extreme Calvinists uncomfortable to believe that God invented, initiated and created sin and evil. You don't truly believe it yourself because every time something you feel is evil or not a good gift (come down from the Father of lights) you resist it and fight against it in order to be free from it. If you truly believed that every evil thing (or bad thing) that happens to you is directly come from God... then why do you take aspirin? Why do you allow birth control? Why do you have an innate desire to fight against poverty, disease, injustice, inequality, brutality, rape, murder.... is it not because these forces, these "things" are in opposition to God? Did not Jesus confirm that He came "to destroy the works of the devil" and, if God is personally responsible for evil (which James flatly denies 1:13-16) then God is in opposition to Himself and a "house divided against itself cannot stand" according to Jesus (Luke 11:17). God is not the author of evil desires (He would have had to give those evil, sinful desires to Adam and Lucifer since they had no evil in them when created by a perfect, love filled God. I cannot fathom that you would create a philosophy that believes that God is the creator and originator (instigator) of sin and death.
This is so sad. Such a bright and able man arguing against his own text. Very sad. He believes differently now! It is not national, nor is election for service, it is personal and salvific. “But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book.” (Daniel 12:1 ESV)
David, Even Jehovah Witnesses or anyone else can claim "just scripture quotes!" Point is, anyone, even those who present a false teaching can claim they are quoting scripture. Right? So, as far as being infallible... do you admit that you could be, or are likely wrong in some of your understanding of the bible?
+Michael Pearcy There are untold amounts of Scripture I don't know or understand. One would have to be an idiot to think they know it all, heard it all and there's nothing left to learn. But, oh, the Scriptures clearly say the Father gives whosoever to the Son, and they all shall be saved. How is it we of our own free will manage to get our names in the Lamb's book of life when it was written from the foundation of of the world, before anything was even created yet, including man? Our names have to of been in there from the foundation of the world. Any later than that isn't taught. Those in that book are the ones given to Jesus from the Father. I believe it. I believe everything Jesus teaches me by the Holy Spirit, and that He teaches believers in all things, that we need no man to teach us. 1John 2:26-27. Why do so many skip those verses and let others do their thinking for them? We indeed are warned about receivers and those who hold the truth in unrighteousness. Those who have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof.That's why I give those verses.
David, you have good arguments for your position. But have you any answer why God would put people's names in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world....and then blot them out? Were they then blotted out from the foundation of the world...which is your position? And if they were blotted out, were they not written in 1st? If God predestined you to be a Calvinist and predestined me to be an Arminian, then there is no way we will be able to change our positions, unless He predestined us to be the other 1st, predestining us to change our minds and hold the opposite position later, which was always His predetermined purpose to begin with. I don't care if you or I choose to hold or change our positions. Whatever happens will happen because it has been predetermined from the foundation of the world, according to you. So we don't have to argue, as nothing will change. However, if at a later time I become a Calvinist and you become an Arminian (which I believe COULD happen to either or both of us!), if you are currently correct it will be because God predestined us to those positions while we are currently predestined at this time to our present positions. I will not try to change your predestined position. Why should I work against God? It would never work anyway, unless He predestined you to be an Arminian from the foundation of the world and you just haven't lined up with His predetermined plan! God bless you and have a Happy New Year. Your brother in Christ, Jim Warner
Jesus knew from the beginning who would not believe and who would betray Him. Sounds like predestined for hell to me. Either you believe or not, but it is what the Scriptures teach.
+David Down - It is the manner in which you phrase your words and sentences together, the way in which you formulate your wording that creates certain ideas that is in error. When you say that "Jesus knew from the beginning who would not believe and who would betray Him" and then link it to "Sounds like predestined for hell to me" is not necessarily true. These two ideas do not necessarily need to be linked together. Just because God foreknew something does not automatically imply that He purposed (had a goal or intention in mind to purposely) send people to hell. There are other possibilities, other actions that can be in play... The manner in which you phrase your ideas together simply shows your bent on a philosophical outlook that you maintain.
It is not he manner of anything. Jesus knows from the beginning because He is in control of all things. That is why He has perfect foreknowledge. There is nothing that can happen out of His control, therefore not out of His foreknowledge. If you can't grasp that simple truth, I give up. Any further discussion is useless. Your analysis of my so-called phrasing words together as if to manipulate them is garbage. Just believe the Scriptures!!! Man cannot be saved of his own will. Why? Jesus said, "With man it is impossible." That's it. If all you people hung up on this free will crap are this way, it's no wonder unbelievers can't deal with all Christians. Guys like you think you can free will talk them to death. Well, you can't. Only God brings the increase according to His will, not ours.
You again misuse verses.... Just because Jesus said, "The things which are impossible with men are possible with God." does not say what you are implying (i.e. Salvation is imposed on a select few). Why do you inject your philosophical reasoning into what Jesus plainly stated? He simply said that salvation cannot happen without God. This is why Jesus later tells us that "unless God does the work, the drawing, the calling, no one would be saved!" An analogy could be used: If I said to you that you are completely helpless and unable to climb a steep mountain on your own because it is too great of a task for you to complete on your own and then proceed to tell you that, "but with God enabling you, you can most certainly do it!" This then removes a works based mentality which the Jews had so impregnated upon their minds as to the way in which they (because they saw themselves as the chosen ones) thought they could attain salvation.
You've got to be kidding. He controls everything but the very most important thing of all - our eternal destiny? Even after He tells us that no one seeks after Him, we all go our own way, none are righteous, no, not one? When Jesus' disciples asked Him, "How is it that we can be saved?" and Jesus' reply was, "With man it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible." Even of us who receive power to be the sons of God, which were born not of blood, nor by the will of the flesh, nor by the will of man, but of God. In short, we can only receive the power to be the sons of God if we are born of God. This is predestination, election. Man is not capable of responsibility to come to Jesus because God says so, that nobody does or can because that all comes from the Father... the faith by grace, not works. None seeks after Him. Our minds are enmity against Him. Even for after those of us who are saved, our will wars against the indwelling Holy Spirit. How in God's name does the Bible, without contradicting these verses alone, and there are more, and where in the Bible does God teach it is our responsibility to come to Him of our free will, when He Himself says none do? It all starts with the Father, not the Son. Jesus Himself said, "No man can come unto me except the Father which hath sent me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day." "No man CAN come unto me except it be given to him of the Father." "All that the Father giveth to me SHALL come to me, and he that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 17 Jesus' prayer says over and over that He prays not for the world, but for those whom the Father has given Him, for they are thine and mine are thine, not for His disciples only, but for all future believers as well. He came to save those whom the Father gives Him. "All that the Father giveth me SHALL come to me, and he that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." No where is there even the slightest hint that our will is involved at all, but the will of the Father's only. There is no way one can say these are just hand-picked verses taken out of context just to make my point. They mean exactly what they say, and you either believe them or you don't believe Jesus. If 2 Peter 3:9 were to mean that this is a call to the whole world to believe of their own free will, you would have to conclude that either Jesus failed because many are going to perish, so that is not true. Or that the Bible teaches universal salvation, which is not true because many are going to perish. Or Jesus lied, which He certainly does not. This is a verse on edification of the believers. It is addressed to believers for believers to build their faith in God that because they are believers, they will be saved and that none of God's believers will perish. No it doesn't say in this verse that all God's elect shall be saved here, but clearly from the teachings of the Bible, that is what is taught, even some verses I just gave you. The free will salvation doctrine is of the Devil, his first lie to mankind, as he said to Eve before she ate of the forbidden fruit that they would not die and they would be as gods - meaning they could even determine their eternal destiny. This, in spite of Revelation 17:8 which says all who are not found in the Lamb's book of life written FROM THE FOUNDATION OF TE WORLD are going to perdition. Revelation 13:8 refers to the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." The Lamb is Jesus, He was slain at the cross at Calvary, and this was all predestined from the foundation of the world. Man's free will exists, but it is no good, for it does not seek after God and is not willing to obey God. Have I not just shown you from God's word these things? I know Michael is lurking out there in his unbelief waiting to twist these into something they do not teach, as he and I already went around on this and he doesn't believe Scripture the way it is given; but most verses are inarguable by themselves, and some concur with other Scriptures teaching the same thing with the same from different vantage points: God is in control from the beginning of all His creation, including salvation, or else how could He say the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world", regarding man who He obviously knew would sin and thus would need a Savior from it, man, who had not even yet been created, much less committed the predestined (obviously) sin he would actually commit per God's plan, and say this before creation had even occurred? Man does not freely choose God's way but chooses his own way, as is clearly taught. God must therefore directly intercede at His divine time, to save those whom He gives to Jesus before they die. Man in no way makes a choice even to refuse this intercession. "Blessed is the man whom thou choosest as causes to approach unto thee..." - Psalm 65:4 You either believe this or you don't believe God.
John macarthur a great teacher and Christian is far from perfect an does not know it all. he even said that He does not Know why God chose HIM and added -I don't know why god could not save all . Now that speaks volumes. maybe his premise is wrong an I think it is. We are not scripturally Totally Depraved, sinners yes, depraved to a point yes. Jesus himself said in Mathew 7-11 that we can do some good but of course that cant get us to heaven cause we also do the evil an those sins Must be paid for.So right there Totally Depraved is not scriptural. God said when he made man that it was GOOD. If we are in gods image then we must have some god like qualities right? If John Macarthur an everyone else IS Totally depraved then how can anyone know Gods Word and why would l listen to a Tottally Depraved preacher or anyone else!! How canm J macarthur Know if he was a chosen elect? He cannt KNOW if he is TD.
This is, without a doubt, one of the most poorly presented arguments for either 'free will' or sovereignty that I have ever encountered. Dr. Rogers appears to not be able to make up his mind. And, whereas this issue has divided the Church for millennia, a more succinct message would have been appreciated. Read your Bibles Bereans!
Kodi James Where does it say that? The bible says that holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. There are other places that say that they weren't even aware of what they were writing because the prophecies weren't for them, but to be revealed at a later date. Essentially they wrote either what they were told to write or as witnesses of what they observed.
Why would God teach us to not discriminate on who we love, forgive, help and do good and not practice that with election and predestination (Calvinistic sense)? Is God the biggest hypocrite out there? Didn't He emphatically condemn hypocrisy? Why would God "hate" someone when He teaches us to not have any hate in our hearts? Ever heard the phrase "hate the sin not the sinner"? Jesus said, "If you love those who love you, what merit is there in that?". The calvinist system completely perverts that. It creates a system where only God can only love those who love Him back (the elect), and those who cannot love Him (non elect) are completely shunned and rejected. The elect are the only objects of His love whereas the non elect don't get any love. But Jesus said that that type of love lacks in any merit. Is God preaching against Himself? I can be "elected" to president but if I don't act presidential, will I jeopardize my election? If I made a mockery of the presidency do I still deserve to be president?
+David Down Did God teach us ever to love less? What merit is there in that? Didnt God say that no greater love for a person than to lay down one's life for one's enemy? Calvinism is an insult to love without boundaries.
Regarding hate, I didn't bring it up; someone else did. I merely mentioned that from the KJV, the word "hate" was used in the old English to also mean "love less". The Bible does mention that God hates with a perfect hatred. He says, "Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated." One cannot know the Lord if one does not believe everything taught to him from the Scriptures. I am not a Calvinist. I have never read Calvin. The verses I quote are from God's word, not John Calvin. I have never quoted John Calvin. The Bible also makes a point of referring to one of the disciples as "whom Jesus loved." Did Jesus only love that particular disciple (believed by some to be John)? Of course not. Rightly divide the word of truth, don't just pick up on one verse and run with it. Some verses can stand alone in their meaning but many require more in-depth study into the Scriptures to see what they are actually teaching on a particular doctrine. The phrase "hate the sin, not the sinner" is not stated in the Bible, but I am persuaded to believe it is taught in there. I never even implied that we are to discriminate on who we love, forgive, help, and do good for. Election of who is saved is known only to God, as we are to preach the Gospel to every creature. We are taught to be more benevolent especially to them that believe, but also to be so to those who may not yet believe (as we don't know if or when any given unbeliever may be converted or if they ever will be). This is why Jesus tells us not to rip up the tares, for we may damage the wheat in the process (refer in Matthew 13 to the parable of the wheat and the tares and Jesus' explanation of it). In there, you will see that the wheat are the children of God and the tares are the children of the Devil. Is God willing to save the children of the Devil? No, but He does save all His wheat; that's who He is not willing that any should perish (2 Peter 3:9). He refers to His children, not the Devil's. If you are unfamiliar with this doctrine, I will give you some Scripture to help. To understand God's word, we must first understand who God is. "The Lord God omnipotent reigneth." This means God is in control of all things and knows all things from everlasting to everlasting. Knowing this, we know that no one does anything that God did not have in His plan already from the foundation of the world. This must therefore include who is saved and who isn't, as is known to God from the beginning. Again, I will give you Scripture which teaches this, but I think from your comments that you have already read some of my posts, which have much Scripture. If so, you ought to believe them, for they are the word of God, not from me.
This is addressed in my other post to you. Does God love the Devil and his angels and those who are children of the Devil? No. People who are children of the Devil are "vessels of dishonor, fitted to destruction." People who are the children of God are vessels of honor, fitted to mercy. Mercy, in that while we were yet sinners, He saved us who believe on His name.
+David Down Yes to understand God we must know who He is, and He is Love. Your whole answer dodges the question. The logic is so simple 1. Love one another as He has loved us. 2. Love your enemies. 3. If you love those who love you what merit is there in that? 4. Love is greater than Faith. 5. If you do not love then your faith is empty. 6. God practices what he preaches. 7. Limited atonement is the complete opposite to universal love. 8. God is not a hypocrite. How can He tell us not to discriminate when He does just that with limited election? 9. God is not sovereignty. God is not arbitrary. God is love. If His election does not reflect love then it is heresy. 10. Any type of limiting or discriminating is contrary to Jesus words and actions.
If God has a preference for one and not the other, and the one whom He does prefer goes to heaven then where do the ones whom God doesn't prefer to go? This sermon, unfortunately, like many SBC church sermons are, is filled with contradicting and confusing notions. In light of the rest of Romans 9 text, this conclusion is a product of a tradition and not what the Bible is very plainly trying to portray, that God is in control of everyone. The problem that people have with Calvinism is that they think that God controlling everyone like robots, that is false and if you believe that you don't understand Reformed Theology. God's sovereignty in salvation does not take away the responsibility that a man has to choose Christ.
Election is real but it is not predestined from before the creation of the universe. Calvinism is half right. God resists the proud, he gives grace (saves) the humble. God elects but it is not predestined, it is based on what he observes in a person. "Whosoever wills" refers to those whom God grants it to. God blinds people (Romans 11;8) and God grants repentance to whom he wills. That is what Matthew 16;13-17 is about, and Ephesians 2;8, and 2Timothy 2;25 and Luke 10;21 etc. God decides who believes. He who believes is saved. He who believes obeys (John 8;51)
Calvin isn't the issue. I never read any commentaries on this topic. Election (divine selection) is from God. This is the Bible, not Calvin. 1 John 2:26-27. Follow this and you will get the teachings of God straight.
The hidden things belong to God. The revealed things belong to man. If the Lord does not know who are is children and those who are children of the devil then He is not god. Dr Rogers problem is this: his sermons are cherry-picking, verses taken out of context. Exegesis of the Scriptures is taking a passage in context (and not to fit the pastor's agenda).
