I've found 40's to be the sweet spot for me. I live in quite a hilly area and ride in all weather. I've tried 60MM boras which felt fast on the flat but could be quite a handful in the wind, and 23's which were stable but offered no aero benefits on the flat, 40 just seems to be fast enough but stable enough to ride year round.
You lot have me questioning, for my Trek Emonda ALR build I was looking to go 50mm and 88mm wheelsets but unsure if to build a 23mm wheelset too each wheelset be like £1k but 50mm is like 1300g, 88mm is estimated 1500g and 23mm be sub 1000g
You have a little rounding error there. Should be 3.75...% or rounded 3.8% more power output. Don't quite see where u got the 2.9% from though, i.e how u define "faster time". You could for example say that his time was 4.3% shorter compared to the shallower rims though, i.e.: 1-(22*60+2)/(23*60+2) = 0.043 = 4.3%. Or just say he went 2.5% faster, i.e.: 28.4 km/h / 27.7 km/h! Furthermore one could now roughly estimate the C_d*A change between the two wheel setups. Let K be the "aerodynamic drag coeff.", P the power and v the velocity in m/s. We then have P_1 = K_1*(v_1)^3 for the deeper rims and P_2 = K_2*(v_2)^3 for the shallower rims. Now devide both equations and solve for the ratio K_1/K_2. Plug in your values and you get a reduction of aerodynamic drag of 3.7%. Keep in mind this is quite a rough estimate since we do not consider rolling resistence, drivetrain efficiency, inclines etc. but its still much better than just comparing times. What does this mean now? It means that for the same speed you would have to push 3.7% less power (watts) to maintain it. For example you would have 289.9W instead of 300W for the same speed.
I mean, really, let’s be honest… deep section wheels just look totally badass. (And those Rovals looked GREAT with the ‘Nag, btw.). Do us mere mortal, non-pros really need them? Likely not, but I run ‘em anyhow. And while we’re on the vanity kick, did you hear how they sounded while he was rolling along? Almost makes it worth the price of admission.
I also proved this point recently in a group ride so much so both riders have gone and ordered the same Zipp 303s wheelset. The two riders are heavier than me and riding heavier bikes yet I sailed past them downhill with no pedalling. It was a very simple example of the benefits of a carbon aero wheel over OEM wheels.
Yeah it entirely negates the data, this show's nothing if there was more power put down on the faster run. There are enough variables that you can't control, make sure you control the ones you can.
@@ERIK31351 Even if the average power were consistent between runs, you can still get wildly unreliable results due to differences in pacing. The more consistent you keep your speed, the faster you'll complete the course for any given average power. Including a steep climb in the course almost guarantees you can't compare the two rides because of how hard it makes it to ride at a consistent speed.
Its yet another meaningless journo comparison bit...a la gcn. Powers diff, consecutive runs are never the same, then they pontificate on the outcome. 'Content'
@@TomPuzzle You are correct in saying that average power is not a good metric. But, power is still the right metric to control here, not speed. Ideally, show average power and then maximum deviation. Keep average power consistent between runs with maximum deviation of power within ~5%. When you're trying to show an efficiency difference (here it is between two wheels) then you're actually looking for a difference in speed while keeping power constant. No other method will give you an accurate answer.
My 2021 Aethos came in with Roval Alpinists and I love them. Comfortable, light and quick. Yes I would be faster all around with the Rapide, but I do one race a year which has a lot of climbing (2000m over 105 km) and I can stay in the pack on the descents no problem. And as I am going to a bike trip in the Alps soon, the Alpinist will be the top choice there!
I think in the real world I really dont think there's that much in it, especially on windy days. If you have to slow down because you have the wobbles from cross winds then it really makes no sense to go deep. I think the alpinists are the wheel most should be riding especially if you just want to ride and not pay much attention to the wind forcast
I saw another test where the wats were even and the difference was something like a second per km. No point in keeping heart rate equal, that doesn't matter for this type of experiment, what matters is having as close to same watts.
the weight difference is so tiny it's kind of silly to pick a lighter rim over an aero rim. what you ate for breakfast could make a bigger weight difference. aero's advantage gets exponentially bigger the faster you go too. that said, an aero helmet makes a bigger difference than wheels
While weight difference is a bonus, it's more about crossword stability. Especially for lighter riders, riding 60mm deep wheels in the mountains during even a mild wind could have dire consequences. I'm 72kg/184cm, riding 45mm Mavic rims and descents + crosswinds make for a pretty dangerous combo. I'll go much shallower with my wheel choice for the next mountain trip.
I noticed the speed gain when I fitted deeper section 45mm Zipp 303s to my Orbea over the shallower wheels that came with it. I didn't dare go deeper as I'm in the mid 60kg range, but I'd add that the Zipps are much more benign in crosswinds than the than the other wheels were.
Thanks David. All the testing and data from different people comes to the same conclusion, but it was still entertaining to watch! The only element that seems to be neglected when covering this topic is the benefit of rotational mass one gets from a deeper and heavier wheel. Something for another video perhaps?! I would also love to see a video with the same type of test but with lightweight vs aero frame sets with identical wheels and group set etc. This seems to be something rarely covered. Perhaps because it’s hard to get two identical bikes with different frames to test easily? Say a Trek Emonda vs Madone with similar or identical components and wheels.
I think most of those review forget one thing. Where do you loose the wheel of your opponent in the race? On the flat? On the 4/5% climb? Or on the 8+% climbs? For me its for sure on the steep stuff. So that is limiting myself, so Im probably better off with "climbing wheels" (I use 40 mm 1200 gr farsports feders). If you ride just solo then ok, deeper is mostly better.
Really great review, David. I must say, I'm very torn on this issue. I live in the Taunus region of Germany and we tend to have fairly consistent hills with fairly steep gradients. I like the idea of a 36mm rim depth but after watching this video; I'm suddenly a lot more interested in trying to learn if a 50mm rim depth might not be better for me 🙂 Unfortunately, I can't buy both, so... It very well may come down to your analysis! Although; I'd be very curious as to how similar or different the overall terrain is in the Cots Wolds vs the Taunus. Thanks again for another informative and educational presentation!
I know both areas. Taunus is very similar (I used to live in Westend in FFM and rode all over the Taunus). You don't have crazy long hills like in the Alps. I was always on 45mm deep wheels and that is perfectly acceptable. Go for the deeper wheel and be faster.
@@pauljozefak7540 Hey, thanks for the advice Sir! I do have one question though; if you were riding the alps (I often ride all over the French alps for example) would you still want 45-50mm deep wheels? I'm sure you're aware that on those 20+ km climbs, it's generally an average of 8 or 8.5%, so not exactly "vertical". (It's the periods of 12% and above I'm worried about, hehe!) As for Taunus life; thank you for the confirmation that the deeper wheels will help more than anything. I would say that apart from the Feldberg, most climbs around here are short but punchy. (I live atop a short but long-enough-to-hurt 16% ascent I climb home from work every day 🙂 )
If overall speed is your goal, the deeper wheel is faster. However, I ride 32mm super light climbing wheels because I like the snappy feel and quick acceleration and braking. Not as fast on flats, but more fun to ride. And much easier on the 15% climbs available in my area.
@@bitgeist21 For Taunus only, go with the 45s. If I myself were regularly going to the Alps, I'd have a separate set of climbing wheels. Why not have best of both worlds.
Hi David, I have the Rapids on my aethos. The bike feels faster and the rims are really nice in perpendicular and tail wind. My observation is that, and like many deep rims is that they are very unstable in cross or diagonal wind and a bit scary when descending. Once I had to come to a complete stop because of gust. I also noticed that they are a bit bouncy when the road gets rough sometimes (rear wheel). Moreover, the bike lost its agility and became a bit heavier to accelerate as compared to shallow ones. Moreover, and As compared to my previous 45 fast forward, the rovals do not come on top. I would or should have kept the shallow rovals as the rapids are more or a better fit for the tarmc.
Hi Mohammed thanks for your comment! I have an Aethos comp and tossing up between the Alpinists and the Rapides. I'm assuming from what you have said here is that Alpinist would be better suited?
@@MarcraM82 Hi. The Rapids are faster and looks great. The alpinist makes the bike more agile and very fast to descend, accelerate, and turn. They are lighter and nicer to ride. They make the bile agile and fun as it intended to be. The only challenge is that they are/don’t hold the speed like the rapids and are not that pleasing to look at :)) as the rim profile is too shallow. I would go for 45’s or the 38s from roval as a mid solution.
I have the previous clx (non tubeless) with the conti gp5000 28mm, because of reliability issues with the sworks turbo cotton . The tire suites fine in the front rim . From previous experience with mavic wheels, I think 40 deep rim is the sweet spot for all round use
What are the rim depths of the two wheels? That was my first question but I had to plow through 2/3 of the video to learn the dimensions on the deep wheelset. I never did find out about the shallow wheels though. Sorry if this comes off as snarky, but really, you need to tell us that info up front. Or in the description. Or both.
I would like to give a different view in addition to the fact that same watt shall be consodered, the result it is strictly correlated to athlete power profile. If i had less power than athur for istance, i would go slower and take less advantange by aero. This should be considered as comparing factor as well
I run Fulcrum Racing Zero's, 27mm/30mm. I think lightweights are the absolute best for year-round riding, because of one thing: the wind. If you live in an area where there's no wind, sure run deep section wheels. Where I live, it gets incredibly windy, and has at least 5-8mph average wind speeds average all year. I also live in an extra hilly area, with 7k elevation climbs from my doorstep.
Both! I was a bit worried about crosswinds as even with my normal aluminum wheels I get buffeted about. I ordered 45 up front and 60 in the back.... waiting impatiently to arrive, though based on the results of putting a pair of 38mm wheels on my wifes bike it should be great as she picked up an average of 1.5mph over our 30mile route.
I’m glad you used heart rate as a baseline, not watts. If you have less resistance, your power will be higher. I switched to 40mm carbon wheels and I will never go back to aluminum.
I would have loved to get Alpinist wheels for my Aethos Comp but the price was just too steep. Eventually I bought a set of Fulcrum Wind 40 wheels that have some aero benefits but weigh 1.6 kg in total 😬 They are nice to ride, though 🙂
I have the Alpinist on my Aethos pro, and even after seeing what David and others have pretty convincingly shown about aero wheels, I'll likely stick with the climbing set. Even though I live in a hilly, not mountainous, area, the lively, snappy feel of the lightweight wheels is worth whatever small price I pay on the flats and descents. I'm not a racer, just a recreational rider, so that exciting feel of quick, responsive acceleration is an important part of my rides. If I wanted to shave some time off my Strava PRs I might go the other route, but for just sheer fun I'm probably happiest with what I've got.
As always a great video - I spent a few years in Dubai for work and along the way I made a side study on aero gains and my own as the riding conditions are pretty consistent aside from the heat - the wind blows pretty consistent and so I ended up with set of zipp 854/454 for the sail effect BUT!!!!! The 454 on the front with the wave which is supposed to shed crosswind - MEH! - it for my experience does not or perhaps not as much as the hype would have you believe stop side wind shear back work as advertised and now back in uk and uk roads shakes the fillings loose - these days I save them for summer rides and use a pair of mavics in the wetter times - Rovals - great success with these on my EMTB - 3 years and a few spokes and the rear (approx 12k on the pennine rocks is starting to pack up)
This is great - I just got the same Colnago c68 - even the same color - and saved a few dollars up front by spec'ing cheaper rims. But my plan was always to put better wheels on it. Such a great bike though!
@@ricky7396 i was debating between the checkpoint and aspero 5 but when i saw his review about the revolt i was sold! Just going to get the advance pro 1 and a deep set of aero wheels and i'll be set!
@@bobonbikes1112 Nice I like it think it will rival a road bike. I went for top mechicanical version, as I just know grx are going to go 12 speed di2 soon and that put me off. I will probably get another revolt in a few years. Enjoy and great bike 👍
Running 58's and they feel the same in the crosswinds as my old 46mm wheels and the 50mm before those. Back in the 90's a cross wind blew everyone bar me off the road on a training ride, no deep rims there. lol
I am not interested in going faster downhill. I want to make the ascents easier and faster. For sure the lighter wheel is better for me. However, the industry is focused on racing and not recreational or sportive riding. That is why we have disc brakes vs. having the option for rim brake bikes. I don't need disc brakes, but the industry has decided to take away this choice. Probably soon we won't be able to get light wheels either. It is absurd that the bike I bought 18 years ago is 2 lbs lighter than the current model that replaced it and the price is 3 times more. Surely for the pros the current model is faster, but I don't ride as fast as the pros so the aero advantages are out of my reach.
Totally with you on this. I feel that so much bike industry stuff just doesn't apply to me; 'coz I like to ride the North Pennines all day over a long distance with big climbs, so 120km+ and 2500m+, taking time for a coffee, gassing with my mates, and a sit down lunch with extra water in the teapot. The descents have me freewheeling almost from the off, going so fast that I'm never in my 11 and 13 tooth sprockets. Gimme climbing wheels every time. Sportive riding and Audax is where it's at.
I’m with you with the tech side of things it’s a shame things have gotten heavier and choices taken away but disc brakes I kind of agree with kind of not. Where I don’t I don’t agree is areo. You actually be surprised how often you/we encounter those test criteria speeds in everyday life. Ride 17mph into a 15mph wind and there you have it. Your at there min test criteria and benefiting. The problem comes with balancing the wheel depth with rider weight and everyday user ability. For me the radpids are dangerous to ride on days where the gusts are over 20-25mph 30-35mph stay at home especially if you live in place with a lot of open flat land. Alpinist i can ride in those conditions you get blown around a little but it’s still very rideable.
wow 110 psi nice i used to gut a normal tube for a skin layer and used a thorn proof inner tube and could hit 80 psi no problem that was with road slicks repco tripple AAA frame back in the early nineties i was over taking much more advanced racers just before carbon fibre hitting speeds of 60km on the level tyre pressure was a big game changer
Your data slides are messed up. You have overwritten data in one, the other doesn't have the correct wheels labeled. You pedaled harder and went faster. Just like nearly everyone else, I'd take the deep section wheels. Not because they are faster, the difference is probably immeasurable with two high end wheel sets like this. They just look cool, and it makes my brain think I'm faster.
Which would you choose if you are planning a trip across the USA which as you know has a lot of all types of terrain. I’m a larger rider, 6’5, 230lbs and so I’m trying to keep the weight down on the bike so i was going to go with the aplinist. But I’m wondering if the overall faster rapide might be the better option?
David, comparing the new Shimano Ice Tech Freeza RT-MT800 disc rotor with the old RT800 rotor. The cooling fins have largely been removed - do you know why this is and what difference it makes?
David, I wonder how much the power of the rider affects the benefit of the aero deep section wheels. Is it true that unless you are riding at 32kph or more the aero affect is greatly diminished? I am weigh 58kg and am being knocked about on my 60mm mavic wheelset so I'm thinking I'd be better on a narrower wheel. I rarely knock out 32kph!
I ride my road bike on a pair of 55mm rims everywhere and my TT bike on some 80mm rims (for training) unless it's really windy. But then i live in the flatter part of the Cotswolds so i can easily avoid any significant climbs.
Would have liked to have seen deep front with shallow back wheel since most gains are on front end. I think also if his usual 28mm were used the results would have been closer as the 28 would have bulged out a bit more overshooting the tear-drop alignment with the rim ruining partially the advantage of the deep section
I had a pair of cl 2 rapides. Swapped out to the Alpinist clx (gen 1) got them super cheap and compared to cl version I Alpinist feel faster to me. I like to ride in all weathers so ultimately I prefer around the 30-40 mark and have the confidence to push harder with Alpinist. So I’m pretty happy
Hello, one question, you have tried the 454nsw before, how do you compare it with this roval rapide clx II? Not thinking about the price, which one is faster? Feel better? Have you ever tried cadex ultra light 50? What would you choose between this 3?
I moved to southern France 13 years ago with 6.5 Aoelus wheels and could not wait to get rid of them. They sat in the garage for several years but are now dedicated to the Computrainer. Too windy for deep section wheels and there are no flat roads. I am now looking for good wheels for my S-Works and the C38s look suitable. PS If someone wants my 6.5s make me an offer.
sorry, but why on earth did you not correct these wrong numbers about the timing in a proper way ? The graphic is always showing the Alpinist -- I just really don`t understand , why you did not correct that, before loading up this video ? totally misleading !
I weigh just less 50 kgs. I am like a light-weight kite. In addition, by gravel bike has a relaxed front end with significant wheel flop. A short stem makes the handling much snappier. My super-light Rolf carbon wheels, almost erase the feeling of wheel flop. My front wheel/steering now feels light and agile AND I now carve down hill with stability, ease, and fun. No doubt, deep wheels are faster. However, I'm not timing myself or racing. Further, I can't even perceive that speed difference--especially on 29 PSI
"I was shocked at the results" well, you really shouldn't have been. The notion that aero trumps weight up to a gradient of about 6% for a trained amateur (4w/kg) and 10% for a pro (6w/kg) was proposed by Cervelo over a decade ago, and repeated more recently by Cannondale in their white paper on the System Six. Constructive feedback - don't undersell your videos by using lazy cliche click bait style titles, your audience is more sophisticated than that.
That’s not really how it works at all and your taking wind speed right out of equation. Ride 10mph into a 20mph wind and your benefiting from the wheels very small wattage gain. 99% should be on the alpinist, they’re a more controllable and comfortable wheel set with tangible areo gains over your standard wheels.
I'll stick with the old shiny aluminium ones that are basically free these days. I ride for fun and to stay fit. Not interested in spending thousands to climb a few places up strava!!
Yah, unless you are competitively racing, its just for fun and vanity. Good enough reason for me :) So i don't spend a fortune though, I bought a couple sets of Chinese versions that are much cheaper than the big names. Tried on my wife's bike first (38/38) and it made a surprising difference - 1.5mph average increase on a 30mile route. Ordered a set for myself in 45/60
For me i find my 50mm Prime Black Edition carbon disc rims are all i need at the moment, side winds not a problem as im a strong fit rider that's weighty at 98kg & for additional stability my rims are loaded with latex tubes encased in Continental Gp5000s clincher 28mm tyres which for me is a win, win happy day's....!!!
Ah I see! Now you make sense :) Okay so I swapped the rotors over between the wheelsets, because I only have one set of these new Ultegra rotors at the moment. I did include some shots of the C68 with the Alpinist wheels fitted during the video hopefully you saw?
Absolute bollix. Power has to be the same. HR does not matter for such a comparison. Also, climb needs to be around 8% before weight makes a difference.
3.7% more power for 2.5% faster speed…makes sense, but no conclusion between the wheels…the time also consistent to the higher power output…4.3% faster on the 3.7% higher power lap…
I'll have to check the historical wind data, but I rode the wheels on the same morning so there was little change in wind direction - but it wasn't a super windy day really
Or get deep rim brake tubulars and have the best of both worlds 😄 .. also I think these have a shallower front? That's the wrong way round for max aero benefit..
If you have access to these wheels, just do more tests. This test was only okay. If you can find a medium speed climb of ~5 minutes and just do at ~200 watts. See what plays out. That is a test you could four or five times on each wheelset. That would end the discussion. I doubt anyone questions the benefits of aero wheels on flats and descents. And no one thinks heavier aero wheels are faster on sub-12 kph steep climbs. Maybe none of this matters. Each of knows how fast we are. If you can push up alpe d’huez fast enough, then aero always wins over grams. If you can afford the best gear, your bike will be
The reason I choose a varied route was to reflect the riding we actually do, not riding a set climb at a fixed power output which I don’t think is super realistic to how we all use these wheels. I wanted to know how each wheel would perform in all possible scenarios and was fascinated by the results making it clear for the riding I’m doing the deep sections are the best choice
I will take light any day long as its still stiff. Im not a big fan of the roval hubs myself the DT internals etc no thanks.. Good stiff wheels fairly easy to get parts an spokes from dealers.. But i dont care for the rear hub an internals myself.. I work on all my own stuff an such i will take fulcrum. Campy or American classics over any roval.
For me I have 2 favorite set ups. I like 40mm wheels with a 28mm tire up front and a 25 mm tire in back for hill rides. Flat rides 50mm with 25mm tires. I do run 50’s with a wider front tire on rough roads.
@@TheCountrySteve Just my seat of the pants impression, I feel the 25 is snappier for accelerating up the mountains but I like the 28 for comfort and better cornering downhill. Tried it when I saw Alaphilip using it. Cheers
@@stevetreinen3342 Interesting! I wondered because the aero advantage would be to have a slimmer front tyre. Never really thought about acceleration uphill
@@TheCountrySteve Correct, using a wider tire up front could negate the aero gains of the deeper wheel. The measured outside rim should be at least %5 larger than the measured inflated tire (105% rule).
Those wheels have a poorly designed cross section; not only are they excessively wide, but also the wrong shape. Disc brakes on road bikes are not only heavier, but more than negate any gains from aero wheels. Just absolutely no reason for them except on an all weather commuter and off road bikes.
Having these deep section rims on a bike would make me constantly pick it up from a trench aside of the road. I do use old Ultegra wheels, with 25 mm rims and with stronger crosswinds, I do have a feeling that the bike is about to disappear from underneath my sorry ass... 🤣🤣 Would I like to have a ride on any of these? YES! 😁 Specially the shallow ones!
The tip is to ride the drops and stay aero on descents and fast flats if riding in windy conditions. Riding relaxed and upright with 50+ rims in windy conditions can be quite scary.
Damn they sound noisy - both rim and freehub ☹️ I ride CL50s and always found them way too noisy. Otherwise perfectly happy with them. At least the freehub on the CLs is rather quiet.
I wish I would have 60kg😂 I have 96kg and the most of the nicest wheels I can’t get because of the weight limit 😢 That’s why I still have my very old Mavic wheels
