After Happy's Ban: Why YOUR Ideas for W3Champions WON'T WORK - Reality Check 

tl;dr People don't understand that WC3 is a dead game with just a few players, so you can't introduce limits for the matchmaking.

imagine being so fucking good at a game that you cause like an mmr crises xD

Kinda feel bad for Happy. He can’t go to RaRa, gets banned, loses 3-1 to Sok, now forced to play against a guy who threatened his life and a bunch super laggy games. He doesn’t have much else so it’s clear why he gave in pretty easily (plus he is pretty professional all things considered)

Neo in first video: "People leave if they have a ping of 200ms." Neo in second video: "Why is everybody saying there is 200ms ping?!?" Edit: BTW love you man! :)

Why W3Champions decided their move was to punish Happy, and not the toxic players?

If someone doesn't want to play vs someone and he wants to leave, let him just leave. If some ppl, have the benefit to extract MMR from Happy cuz he doesn't want to play them, accept it as part of the system and allow Happy the same freedom like any other Player and spend time withe something more useful than harassing Happy? I admire W3champions, for what they did and do for the scene. I also understand the goal to keep the MMR System as fair, as possible. Don't know exactly why Happy doesn't want to play certain players, I am not in his genius mind^^ but forcing ppl to play someone, they for what ever reason don't want to play, has to me just kindergarden teacher vibes. It's also not fair, to pick out individual Player to disabuse them and change their behavior with the force of treat or punishment, simply cuz they don't want to play certain players. Hope you guys at least doesn't use this treat or punishment tactics on ur social relationships 😉✌️

The more you nerf undead, the more they have to rely on perfect micro which needs less than 100ms. pretty simple as that, Happy absolute genius!

Let me be clear. Thanks to Happy, you grew your audience, made money, and are making a living. Now, you bullying him, want to punish him even though he is right. One day, if this community loses Happy because of your untouchable rules and system, then we'll see how you fare

I seriously couldn't care less about some tournaments using ladder as a means to get players, that is a stupid system to begin with. This is how you get smurf accounts en masse because now players need one account for MMR boosting to get into tournaments, and one account to test strategies and playing different. That system is so incredibly flawed, it will still be terrible even if Happy and everyone else always plays every game fully. Because imagine you just get bad luck and match vs Happy 10 times within a day. You will lose MMR and possibly get thrown out of the tournament simply due to matchup RNG. Or better yet, imagine you're Dise, you win 10 times against Hawk on ladder, but Hawk gets a few lucky wins vs Happy, and now Hawk's in the tournament ahead of you, despite you destroying him (pure hypothetical here). Fix the tournaments relying on MMR to select its players, and the need for "ladder integrity" will disappear.

Players should have the option to forfeit mmr if they don't gain anything (fun, valuable practice) from a match. Forcing them to waste their time "for the greater good of the community" is evil. Happy isn't the community's slave.

MMR is all messed up... happened to me 4 times that I won in 3v3 and lost 400 mmr !! like WTH ...

The same mods that banned Happy are telling people NOT to report leavers, and those reported for leaving got the report declined (i.e. no consequence). W3C mods are a joke.

I don't think we ever criticized the developers. We criticized the need to punish someone who should be able to freely lose games they don't want to play. If it messes up the seeding system, I think host of the tournament can adjust for that fact during invite/consideration by having players in question, do playoffs before official tournaments

Why would people blacklist Happy? He's their meal ticket. Any game posted with the title "I beat happy" automatically gets more attention.

Me over in NZ/Aus with 300+ ping to China, Korea and Europe.

Bro, this guy got outrageous stats whilst giving away free wins xD

Had a few 1000+ ping games on bnet vs koreans. It was a lagfest, but i won somehow. Koreans lagged hard too, so it was kinda fun actually))

Don't mistake my comment on 17:24. My comment was about online chess , because some guy claimed there is no timeout in online chess. and i just copy pasted him which message is displayed on every chess plattform.

Losing Ancient of Wars to the creeps... I am responsible for one such story, I shared it in Discord earlier today.

You should be able to quit anytime you want, and play any way you like. You pay with MMR. Everything else is not great imo.

one "solution" could be that you give people the ping slider.. but it has to be very specific - while searching if the system finds a player with the right MMR and it is not in the ping range, the system will lock the MMR of the searching player to have almost the same range of MMR as this player. With this solution Happy (or anyone) will have his ping right but he will have to wait for a match for a lot more time..which will generally force them to not use it at the end..

ladder is for practice and fun. tournaments is for competitiveness. if I don't find an opponent/match fun to play I should be able to leave, based on Neo arguments smurfing and multiple accounts are a far bigger problem for ladder integrity than leaving games I don't find fun. stop creating rules that discourages people to play the game, specially when we have a low playerbase.

Hahaha..)) Seriously, it's a circus with horses

What is the problem about some people "disconnecting" from specific regions?

I have literally never played on 200 ping in W3 Champions. I am from Europe, playing with people in China. No idea how can someone play on 200ms, as this might happen in 1 of 1000 games.

What shocked me is the fact that people join an age-old game, join subcommunity with extra software...and than tank their MMR to be idiots and annoy lower level players. That's three steps to be bad person. O_o

TLDW: All your comments saying: "Why don't you just do [insert stupid suggestion]!?", are stupid.

"Leads to negative MMR" Lmao yea sure

man sucks to be happy now. Can't fix the system's flaw and instead they bully happy. Volunteers or not players should NOT be punished for the flaw in the system.

When you leave in 1 vs 1 you literally forfeit mmr . Whats the point of banning them? But they dont ban for bm in chat ( which is not a rare occurence for Happy).

"no one plays on 200ms" is incorrect I do. But I'm sure the VAST majority don't

Considering MMR a closed system, if happy can't leave any games he would kind of suck all the points like a black hole of MMR. There would be people with negative MMR anyway.

When Happy leaves a game vs Blade, he's giving him some mmr, and then Happy beats Starbuck, so Starbuck is losing the mmr he could have won, plus the mmr he lost. That creates bias (Blade / Starbuck) and can be conceived as a pattern or manipulation. I agree with penalizing this behavior. Now, about the ping in South America, it was just PaTo asking to increase the max. ping threshold, but I am not sure this represents the will of the South American community. 200 is too high for 1v1 (can work for team games), I suggest capping it to max. 180 ping because ingame ping can increase.

made a comment on the other video with some complaining, was not knowing everything, now I think it's fine. Would kinda like to know happy point of view on this tho. Thanks for explaining.

I think the timing thing could work but they would also need to implement a daily limit, lets say , before an automatic timeout is implemented. if someone leaves more then 3 games under the one minute mark they might get a small timeout which could scale throughout the day or something like that, i cant possibly imagine how difficult it would be to implement something like this though and coders really are the unsung heroes of our society, i could see this working though. if happy leaves 10 times in his 4 hour play session well maybe the timeout would be such that he would need to wait an hour or two or possibly more, which doesn't seem like much to the casual player but that's a lot for a streamer or a professional player who relies on practice and streaming for income purposes.

Why not auto ban 30 minutes for each leave? Which increases with leaves per day and resets the other day? 😊

1 day suspension isn't really a ban imo

Thanks for taking the time to answer all those comments and suggestions. A lot of them were pretty rude but you still answered them in a professional manner, big thumbs up!

I have absolutely no idea about the WC3-ladder details. But technically, you still could punish the leaving player without (significantly) rewarding the staying one without MMR deflation by adding a small amount of MMR to ALL players in the neighbouring elo range. E. g. leaving players loses 10 points, the 1000 people next to him in the ladder gain 10/1000 = 0.01 points.

Ultimately this is all decided by what kind of service W3C wants to be and provide and as a non-player myself this entire exercise is purely academic, but one point I'd like to see addressed is - what's even the problem, really, with these MMR boosts through leaving? Let's cut through the estorism of the value of MMR integrity and go into the practical outcomes these boosts cause. Say Happy always leaves vs some player, let's call him Blaxord. This means Happy's MMR will artificially lower and Blaxord's MMR will artificially increase. The main issues this will directly cause is Happy facing lower MMR players than he should (not very realistic since he's consistently #1, and also entirely a consequence of his own actions, so his own responsibility which he accepts by doing this) and Blaxord facing higher MMR players than he should. Now if Blaxord were the one to voice complaints about this, that the ladder is now unfun to him because he keeps matching against opponents too strong for him because Happy keeps leaving against him, that'd be one thing. I can understand that, it's a perfectly reasonable complaint to raise. Other players above Blaxord's level may now also keep matching against Blaxord and are feeling the ladder unfun because they keep matching against players too easy for them, but that's of course less likely to be an issue since it's either singular players or relatively self-regulating macro effects if not, as their MMR will then "artificially" increase in turn by playing and winning against these players, putting roughly the same distance of MMR back between them as there would be without inflation. But, well, frankly I've heard neither of these kinds of complaints even so much as brought up in this entire conversation. It seems like the W3C ladder and MMR system is not failing to provide players with proper level opponents, at least not outside the natural limitations that this system has anyways, since MMR doesn't and likely should not realistically account for strength by matchup or simple off days. It feels like this situation is instead being decried by people who take MMR as a sort of actual credit value, instead of merely a tool for matchmaking, making it into a stupid ego game, basically pretending that Blaxord is unfairly benefitting from Happy leaving against him - but that's BS of course, it only has as a potential result that he gets matched with players too strong for him with no positive outcome for him in all this; he'd be the main voice who could reasonably complain about this. Not some other unrelated people whose egos are bruised over them getting a higher MMR score. But that's the thing - MMR is JUST matchmaking rating, a figure used by the system itself for matchmaking, and it's nothing beyond that. The only other thing that would come to mind is using W3C MMR as a qualifier metric for something like the W3C Finals which is like, yeah, okay, that might lead to some "mis-qualifications" but this doesn't feel like a unique problem caused by this (it will always have a disparity between the top and bottom of its players) and will be weeded out in the qualifiers/finals anyways. And if not, well, perhaps MMR shouldn't be "the" metric for qualifying for a tournament anyways, there's a reason most tournaments are not based off it. Oh and I guess it skews the "Winrates" statistics a bit further which... well, whatever, you could simply not count the insta-leave games for _those_ if that's the issue.

my average ping is around 100, and vs koreans I always lag, like 335 ping aorund that..... and I'm in Canada.

in tekken 8 you have the option to decline a match if its a bad connection no reason not to implement it in wc3 aswell if happy doesnt want to play chinease players with 115ms he doesnt want to if you want to play them with 115ms you can play them we should have the option to choose freely i dont know why you are trying to impose your view onto others why cant we choose and set the max ping we dont need to endure these bad matches with 100+

NEO flip flops to much...

What did blade say to happy ?

Battlenet does not have better ping @ 23:00 I sometimes meet people from like Japan or South korea and either they have like 300 ping or I have. I don't think these games should start, I still believe there should be a ping cap so some matches won't ever happen but that is a compromise worth doing.

It's not about the rules, it's about the timing I personally, would know (and everyone at B2W knows) that Happy isn't doing this to break the system. There are reasons for it. I would at the very least time it slightly later after Happy's visa application didn't go through. I keep fearing that Happy quits someday. It's like losing the Joker in Batman, the whole show will lose a big chunk of its fun. I agree that there should be rules, but I also understand that you guys should evaluate the situation and make the best decision

15:19 => we mods and we dont wanna work, btw check #6 and see You have to accept higher ping and the rules of server, (cuz we have no worthy competitors) so fck u all Excellent attitude towards the community and their work. 27:55 Nobody is perfect ofc, but ban is not the solution here, u cant force people play when they dont want to, its basic and simple. moderators should propose solutions. change old solutions and even if it is necessary to introduce a new one Most of the community works at their jobs for 8 hours and it's just not their task to make the system as good as possible, waiting for a decision from the players looks like idleness No offence. Love wc3, love ur videos, love community and hate NE

Double standard. When discussing game balance, why do you only focus on top players and not consider the experience of most players?

Happy is the Meta xd

Get some more servers 😅

I'm just more surprised that most people simply don't think further than asking the question and just gonna defend their own cases until proven straight up wrong (or even afterwards). As another viewer, I completely understand the people's uproar over W3C not enforcing rules properly up until now, but I'll not understand the incredibly short-sighted thinking people are trying to force, with some even completely wanting to overthrow the system that was constantly built-upon for years of observance.

The company couldn't figure out how to set up a system of punishment for leaving the game and decided that players should play the way the company wants, without paying money for it? This is not a game, but a job? If I play, I play the way I want, the company's problems do not concern me, if they don't pay, I am not a slave

Neo, I appreciate the time and effort you have dedicated to explain why Happy was banned, and an additional video to explain most of the suggestions and address questions raised from the comments. I can see a lot of difficult decisions have to be made to preserve the integrity of MMR and without folks like you all dedicating all the time and love to this game, this game would have sunset ages ago. Thanks again and keep up the good work.

i hope people stop using w3champions now

Leaving games early? Can't believe this is similar to fighting games where players quit before they lose...

What they need is a REPORT button ! plain and simple. Then moderator can see that the guy is trolling, either TKO his team, or leave most of the game, or don't play etc. and then after 3 warnings they ban him for some times let's say 1 week. then if does the same shit again, then ban for 1 month, they if again, ban 3 months, then 6 , then life ban.

A lot of people don't seem to understand how big the difference is in size, with this community vs wow or lol, this community isn't even 10% the size I would guess. Rules have to fit the place they're put, not a general line across everything. This community just isnt big enough to work on that kinda scale. Sometimes the rules suck, but that's what needs to happen to keep the community afloat. Unless you wanna play against the same 3 people from now on, and wait 30-60 minutes for a game in between early leavers In drop mmr from loser only, eventually someone would theoretically win a match and not gain mmr on a win if the other player doesnt have enough to give. Also, dropping mmr on purpose is the biggest way to get people in the wrong level. If a pro loses a crap ton of mmr for leaving over and over, eventually theyre gonna be put against people that dont have the slightest chance against them, which isn't fair to the lower players. All of this is theory. Without implementing it, you cant know how exactly it will work out. But the risk of it going catastrophic isnt worth the chance that it might fix things. Irl, there are no do-overs. If they implement something and it goes horribly wrong, they cant just go back to before they did it. The damage is done. If you could streak across your work, and there was a CHANCE you could get promoted because the boss likes your gumption, will you try it? Hell no, the risk isnt worth it. Now move that to a scale of hundreds of people. Even good things will ruin it for others. A lot of people dont seem to be thinking in a big enough scale. The more people there are, the bigger the waves from the smallest change. Give the mods a break, theyre trying their best to keep a 20-30 year old game afloat so you can enjoy watching it.

if you leave a game after a minute because your ping sucks just dont make it count towards your rank, just an idea

hi guys. I think you are taking their Freedom. I live in Iran, so believe me, I know how not having freedom looks like 😂... just let them be man.... ... ah and from where Happy lives, I think he is very familiar with the concept too. I don't know. maybe I'm wrong. Love your channel. thank you guys. 😊❤

Man. People got to stop complaining about ping. In a way, as Neo showed on the world maps, ping does make sense to challenge opponents from different regions.

Appreciate you Neo. I do think I had decent suggestions if you want to have a look!

so u compare ping with ? just ping? u have to compare player 1 ping to player 2 ping nothing above that is relevant .......

mouse lader

tape every single match, have a vote of the players if it should be used for ladder or if not why, have a third independent party look over it if there is a disagreement. you gotta ask yourself if you want to play this as hobby and for fun or if its seriouse business in dire need of organization and structure. imo w3c / wc3 people need to take money into their hands and pay people to do a job. either you try making it professional or you stop complaining that you fun hobby isnt 100% fair

Thanks, Neo!

Thank you, Neo

Random comment, but Neo looks to be in way better health these days, face looking slimmer. Hello Fresh?

I'm glad it all worked out and didn't cuz too much drama or a lot of extra work for the WC3C staff

its sad that you have to explain even the worst "solutions" from the clueless people... they forget that wc3 is way better than bnet. now they make these absurd points for an extreme case like happy like "now everyone has to?" no, most arent good enough to recreate the main problem on that scale :D i also think, that map veto shouldnt be possible^^

i play online chess on 2100 elo , and you will get banned for not making a first move (after many warnings) JUST LIKE on w3champions. IF it wouldn'T get banned, every ladder could get flooded with afk bots and destroy literally every ladder of any game. Btw its the same with other games too obviously

Fair said. Good, that ban worked.

So many cringe comments that disregard the state of WC3 competetive and it's player base, just because they are die hard happy fanboys.... Great content and work Neo, us sane people appreciate you keeping the game alive!

W3Champions is great, never has been a more stable ladder and the privilege to play against anybody from all over the world with max 150 ms, all these pathetic Happy fanboys saying over 100 ms is too much go play on LAN if you gonna keep crying about ping.

I don't care about 1v1 ladder but anything other than 1v1 should be INSTANT punishment with ramping up (1 day -> 3 day -> 9 days etc)

Waoo Neo. Is truly incredible how important you haves become to community. Is really significant your participation on all of this. Basically you are the formal vocal for everyone. Amazing bro.

Happy is an absolutely horrible ambassador for the game. Social skills of a snail. Amazingly talented and good though.