IIRC he said that Funday Mondays were way too much work for just him or even a few people to do for a single daily, since he had to go through hundreds of replays a week.
Sean seems so much more alive when he talks about Starcraft. The passion SEEPS out of his every pore. It's so fucking inspiring, jesus. Sean, if you're reading this: I CANNOT WAIT to watch your stream/videos on Brood War HD.
"Well Hell..... ITS ABOUT TIME!" Started watching DayJ years and years ago, and while I have stuck with him through HS transition and other random games (Im actually up-to-date on this ((how sad am I LOL)) I have to say none of them have ever been as engaging, interesting or exciting to me as his Starcraft content. I understand ultimately this is a job and hes going to do what is generally considered more popular for viewership and numbers so this "Remastered" coming out and getting a lot of hype might be the greatest thing to hit the internet in the last decade. I've played broodwar since it came out, even though I was only like 7 when it dropped, and I'll never be a pro by any means - but every single game feels different. Its the only game where I play against myself and there is just another player there trying to inconvenience me the entire time which is unmatched by any other game. I know a lot of Day9's Day1's will be super pleased to see this. Thumbs up Sean P. - The guy who rocked your world in your star strikers impromptu videos with love, Mega
But seriously, How in the HELL does Day9 only have 525K subs? Dude's one of the most entertaining web personalities and does some of the best gaming content (both serious and not serious ones) AND he is a former pro player. Yet in the age where 1M subs are everywhere, Day9 still stuck on 500K
Wow. This might be one of the most important Starcraft videos ever made. No joke, this makes me want to go back and play now, because I certainly held onto that wrong mindset that he laid out here. Especially appreciated the bit about pros having things go wrong too - my assumption and expectation was definitely in that camp of "they're beyond it so they're playing a strategy game". 10/10 transition to Hearthstone at the end too
No, I know this is an unpopular opinion, but the sad truth is that he's just a butthurt player that took years to get good at annoying, clunky, controls and has gotten diluted enough to think they add something, just like all the other players of that era. Instead of thinking of it from the player perspective, think of it as the spectator. Watch games of Starcraft and Starcraft 2. Then ask yourself, is Starcraft more fun to watch because of all the clunky controls? Can you really tell the difference? I can't, but I sure can tell when football players are out of shape in a game. I mean, you can notice a player's skill if you watch from their point of view, which is not really fun to watch, but in the spectator mode? It doesn't really matter.
+tomaO2 Who cares if spectators can't tell the difference? I don't see how that's relevant to any of the actual points Day9 brought up. But speaking of spectators... how well have recent RTS games done in e-sports? Not so great. Maybe they could learn something from Brood War, and not dumb down mechanics to where it becomes glorified rock-paper-scissors, as Day9 put it.
How would you not notice it? This isn't "his APM is a little slow", this is "they got distracted at the wrong moment and misrallied their dragoons to a totally out of position location" or "they weren't paying attention to their minimap and lost all their workers at their 5th to a DT drop" or other obvious mistakes. While the annoying, clunky controls are irritating from a playing-the-game perspective, having a (even unintentionally) unobtainably high skill cap means mistakes are made, which makes for more interesting games because people have deal with their own massive mistakes on the fly. While finals are memorable, some of the more ridiculously entertaining games in SC2 come from the group stages or even Code A where two equally skilled but not skill capped players go head to head. If you have someone who has hit the skill cap, it results in games where either they play perfectly against someone who's not at the skill cap and it's a one-sided steamroll, or the game just goes in a perpetual back-and-forth of whatever the current meta is, shaving off units/workers until one person misclicks one unit during one battle and a nearly-invisible slipup is what cascades into a gg. I won't deny that Brood War's *method* of having an unobtainable skill cap is via a clunky, annoying method of interacting with the game, but I also think that if you want your RTS to remain interesting to spectators at higher levels, forcing players into situations where they're essentially forced to prioritize what kind of mistakes they're going to allow to happen, instead of allowing a sufficiently high APM player to turn it into a turn-based strategy, is a good way of doing it.
I think you pointed out something great.A game can only be so much as its community. That being said there is also the solo component. But in terms of social aspects,talking about the game,letting others know,gettingnew fans, convincing lazy people, a good socializing fan is making it all. Day9 adds in that dedicated knowledge enthusiasm combined with a whole lot of well meant humor And I laughed alot! which you can appreciate,it doesn't always matter that it's not a pro comedian which very few people are tbh. Being happy and confident is doing already half the story/joke.
Your argument about RTS games being strategy secondarily and about speed and reflexes moreso is the exact argument I make about Fighting Games, just in reverse. People think that those games are mainly about physical skill and twitch reflexes, and while they are somewhat, they're even more about knowledge, tactics, and decision-making. So, people who think they'll like one of these genres based on the surface impressions may actually prefer the other.
@@gabrielgarcia1641 this 100%. For most fighting games yeah execution isn't as important but for SSBM you can destroy an opponent without even thinking if you have the knowledge and execution aspects down and they don't.
Ever since Starcraft remastered was announced I have heard so many opinions from people that are (or have been) big in the Stacraft 2 (now) scene. Like guys from LifeisaGlitch, TotalBiscuit and such... They all have their opinions but they all agree on the fact that Starcraft 1 and Broodwar was the best RTS of all times. And they do even explain on the fact that Stacraft is such a deep game and has such potential. And most even go on to deffend the original Broodwar to whatever potential game Starcraft remastered might be. However, this is the first time, the first "rant" I've seen where someone actually explains THAT depth. Where someone takes the time to explain me or us (people who came only after SC2 came about) what this "legendary" game was all about. I mean, I've heard about the mechanics of SC1 players, about the cluncky unit control or about and such stuff. But I have never considered it to be considered a part of the game. As someone who never played that game, I would think of it as clunkiness of an old school game that would need to be improved in order to remaster that game. Same way doing for instance a remaster on Metal Gear Solid 1 would be nice if it had better controls than the original (that at the time were ok but now we can see they are kinda annoying). But that's just it. This video exlpains, in such a great fashion, why for this case, for Stacraft, or Starcraft remastered, those things should not be changed, and what was the actual realization this game created with its clunkiness and all. I am so glad I never unsubbed from this channel even though D9 stopped doing SC2 content alltogether. Hope this game (sc remastered) gets to be as great as the original and we get to have Day9 relive and showcase the love for this game that is so legendary. And who knows? Time to restart that Day9 daily show maybe? I can dream.... Thanks D9! You are awsome!
From what I heard, the remaster is purely graphical and some quality of life additions multiplayer, like matchmaking and such. Everything else about the game will be so unchanged that you could even watch old replays on the remastered client.
In "depth" explanation of BroodWar "depth". It is hard to control. The harder to control it is, the more "depth" it has, right? So. If you control SC with only one hand, the SC gets two time as deep. If you break your fingers before playing, it ts 5 times as deep. Do you know when SC is at its deepnest? When you are a kilometer away from your keyboard. It is impossible to control it, therefore it has infinite depth.
Man I miss this StarCraft Day9. I hardly play the game but always loved watching pro games and Day9's high level analysis. He is unmatched when it comes to passionately explaining how this video game has so much depth and the pros playing it have so much knowledge and expertise.
I firmly believe that the frustration with the "difficult bullshit" of Broodwar arises from the mismatch between how good the player thinks he is, and how good he really is. Therefore when the player is only good with the hypothetical 3 out of 10 mechanical things required in the game that Day9 mentioned, the player will most likely (erroneously) conclude that the remaining 7/10 is unfair bullshit.
I used to watch day9 frequently, I love his Starcraft analisis and shenanigans, however when he started focusing on other games, I kinda driffted away to the point of no longer viewing him. Now that he intends to return, more yet, to Starcraft Broodwar, I cant hold my excitment and am really looking forward to watch his content again!
So this is the only game he plays well? This is my firs time seeing this video, because I like SC, but you cant call yourself a serious gamer if you can play only one game to the core. Even I, an old gamer whose time for work is getting better of him, can name at least 5-6 games Im extremely good at.
Qlicky who the hell said that? These guys are just saying that they only enjoyed Day9's Starcraft videos. I also feel the same, I only really watched him back when he did his dailies and stuff. Watched the occasional series from him like his Fallout playthrough, but his Starcraft videos have always been the best.
This sounds like an argument against Blizzard adding custom hotkeys to Brood War. If there is a circle of hell for bad commentators about video games then anyone who says that deserves to go there forever. The keys that shipped with Brood War vary by language/region and they all have absolutely no redeeming value. They do not raise the skill ceiling: they only raise the skill floor, and pretending that there isn't a high skill floor for StarCraft is nonsense. However, if you aren't saying "no custom hotkeys" then you might have some valid points somewhere. I'm not sure Brood War should have the unit selection limit increased or get multiple building select. Things like that might be changing the game too much. But I think the new patches should absolutely make workers automatically start mining at the beginning of matches and we should absolutely be able to assign new workers to start mining by setting their rally point on some minerals. Some StarCraft II features like that are obvious no-brainers which had no business being left out of StarCraft I.
when they added the auto mining to starcraft 2 (it wasnt in vanilla) my first reaction was "really? people suck that bad that they cant do it themselves?" same thing im gonna say to you.... do you really suck so bad you need auto mining? starcraft 2 is so damn easy because of that, which is exactly why its competitive scene died hard. git gud scrub. i jumped on sc2 after like a year without even touching it, jumped to diamond in an afternoon. if i jumped into bw without a week of warming up first i would be wrecked by everyone. the reason people still like bw and never cared that much for sc2 is precisely because of those noob loving features that made stuff too easy and others that wrecked the balance. i mean its been years and several expansions and sc2 still isnt fucking balanced. bw is so balanced that a creative thinker (as day9 mentioned in the video) can totally swing things in their favor by that alone. in sc2 if the unit sucks, it sucks, no amount of creative strategy will help them win. so stop talking about shit you obviously dont understand kid, and get good.
An RTS is ultimately a combat simulator on some level and I just can't imagine miners who are smart enough to mine all on their own but so dumb they need to be individually told to start. I don't think they could be both at the same time.
A big distinction that needs to be made between a lot of the mechanics in BW and hotkeys is that once you know all of your hotkeys it doesn't really matter where they are. The purpose of leaving in a lot of the mechanics is that those affect time, but once you know all the hotkeys by heart it's going to basically take the same amount of time to press the button no matter where it is meaning the game is still played in the same way. This is as opposed to your automining suggestion which would heavily effect this aspect of time management. Not having to select your workers to get them to mine would remove one thing which the player has to worry about, which means they will have more time to devote to other things, which will change how the game is played.
Since 2009 he did a live show called the day9 daily that was exclusively starcraft then moved to startcraft 2 when it was released. It wasn't until the past 2 years that he moved on to other games. I really enjoy the dota stuff even tho i don't play it, and look forward to seeing him return to why I watched him in the first place, Starcraft.
I remember when I was playing a zvp vs a guy who was far better than me. He went 1 gate reaver, I went 9 pool. After some skirmishes, I end up with 6 lings, and his reaver just pops out. I send all the lings to attack, calculate mentally the time it takes to build a scarab, select all lings except the one in the middle, and as I expect the scarab to be done, I pull all the lings I have selected. Thre reaver shoots killing one zergling, I dive in on the reaver and after killing it, win the game since i previously killed the pylon powering the gateway. That was something that came to my mind in that game as a "what if....". I dont remember my ex-girlfriends ass as well as I remember that moment. And that was just one of many great moments Broodwar gave me. Most of those ideas wont work, but the ones that do... And btw, that is just one aspect of Broodwar.
I wish I knew about Starcraft around the 2000s. I know I would have been in love. I discovered SC2 in 2010 but I am glad that the title has had such staying power that here in 2019 I can be apart of this niche group of gamers and streamers..enjoying this masterpiece and SC2.
Every company who makes games pandering to casuals needs to watch this video. SO frequently I hear "But X game has such a high barrier of entry because of skillcap!" No. No it doesn't. There were plenty of people who never touched the ladder and only played unranked 2v2 in Starcraft, and they sunk hundreds of hours into the game. There are people in Overwatch who have 500 hours in Quickplay. They're playing the game too, just in a different way. Making that the *only* way to play the game is heavily hurting any longevity and depth the game can have and there is no reason to design a game in that way because casual players are *already* playing casually.
I missed you Day9. Come back to a good game that you're passionate about. The whole reason I ever watched your stuff was the intensity and expertise you had because you cared about the game. I know it's asking too much for you to do the Starcraft dailies again, but no Hearthstone video you make will ever touch how good the Scarlett vs. Bomber commentary was, or planetary fortress offensive, or...any of that shit.
People have difficulty grasping things like these sometimes. I mean seriously, Sean brings up golf (I used to play a bit of golf) and frankly Golf is an EXTREME comparison. Unlike Starcraft, where strategy is still pretty difficult, golf is EASY to strategize, you will rarely find yourself in a situation where it’s tough to figure out what the best club is and which direction you wanna hit the ball, that part is easy. But swinging that club just right is SO FUCKING HARD that even pros don’t get it just right all the time. And that’s part of the game, golf tournaments aren’t won because one guy or gal was smarter than all the others, they won because they just did good shots more consistently, same way a Brood War player wins a game because their APM was superior.
"Not the best player in the world" - You won the International Cyber games back in the day, I mean man you where pretty fucking good in your/our (I say our cos i was playing back when you won) not pro but i was obsessed at the time) day.
This is what makes BW so much less stressful than SC2 for me. You just always feel like you're a mess, and that's okay. Once you start getting overwhelmed in SC2, things just spiral out of control.
YES! Fuking subscribed. I've been trying to explain this to people for so long - the reason why strategies are made in real time is so you are intentionally put in a place where more is going on than you could possibly handle. The game is all about learning how to apply your limited attention span in the best way, while accepting that you can't control everything.
It goes deeper. When you are laddering in SC or SC2 you are doing the same thing as when playing a casual game of football with the boys. You all know that you will never be as good as Ronaldo or Messi, but that does not discourage you from playing the game, quite the opposite. You all realise that despite sucking you ARE playing the same game as them. I will never be as good as Serral, but I am playing still playing Zerg and enjoying missing all my larva injects damn it! There is something cool about that :)
It's all about reactions and apm, you can practice all the combos you want in a fighting game but that won't do much good against a person who is actively trying to ruin your game plan. Love this video Day9.
Ties up well with his other bit of advice about when players run off-meta strats like double expansion without units: "Just fucking kill them." --Day9 _Also hello from the future. Necro time._
I just got back from playing soccer. It is a strategy game, like Day9 says, but there were many times I tried to pass the ball and missed my player by 20 feet. It is also a physical game. Just like my lovely Brood War.
Super late comment but my only problem with BW is that unlike any physical sport I know of there are simply no points at which you can actually rest. I love the endurance aspect of it to a degree, but when it’s a nonstop sprint from start to finish it’s painful
@@aeroslythe6881 Another late comment :D But yes, endurance is a big part of it! I remember when I played, I was quite good early game, because I had builds memorized and I could keep the pace, mentally, for max 10 minutes. If I'm not done in those 10 minutes, my brain just start to hurt, I just stuck at the latest thing I was doing, like spamming hydra and a-move them and lose. How pros are playing 30+ minutes on their level, is beyond me, but soo satisfying to watch. ASL is living-room-TV entertainment in my house :)
I love it. I was never so good at Brood War, that I could really do this to any effective degree, but... I really enjoyed that I could get into my opponent's minds, at the level of their own UI. Like, what I mean is I see on the map these units, going this way, at such times but what I _really_ see, in my mind's eye is where my opponent must have been clicking to make that happen, what 1~3 hot keys they _probably_ have, and through inference which area of the map I can exploit, to send their planning into disarray. It wasn't just about adjusting unit composition strategically, or doing the most damage possible in shortest of span... in Brood War, you could categorically dismantle a player's _sanity_, because sometimes, often in fact, the best move tactically isn't what nets you a strategic / resource advantage per se, but rather it's whatever sends your opponent's confidence akilter, so that you _can_ defeat them even from a mathematical disadvantage. When I played Brood War, it's like I could viscerally _feel_ the other players in my head, visualizing the version of mine that was in theirs. That was a cool period in my life.
This is exactly what SlayerS_'BoxeR' used to do in the beginning of pro broodwar, with drops and tricky plays. He probably tilted his opponents to no end!
Huh, you perfectly described why I love bw more than sc2. Sc2 always felt too "hand hold-y" to me. I love in bw the minimap is completely black and the feeling of exploring the unknown on an unfamiliar map. I love feeling in absolute control and knowing that my victory or defeat is completely up to my performance and control, but with sc2 a lot of that is subdued or completely removed. Fog of war is basically non-existent, and all of the expansions are just so unnaturally close together. Infinite select and such perfect pathing really just get rid of the nuances in control and positioning. It just doesn't feel right to me.
4:00 It's that exact kind of mentality that ruined Street Fighter 5. They tried to make a game that was all about decision-making, and tried to excise as much of the need for mechanical skill as they could. What they ended up with was a game that IMO, wasn't fun to play, wasn't fun to watch, and is generally just a mess. Yeah, sure, these random players just happened to catch up to and surpass the fighting game Gods that have dominated the scene for literal decades, just as SF5 came out right? Yeah sure, right, it's all because of their skill and not because the skill ceiling itself was lowered? Ok. King of Fighters 14 also suffered for them trying to pare things down (among lots of issues), I'd assume due to complaints that 13's mechanics were "too difficult" to master in terms of execution (even though XIII already had executional shortcuts and pretty easy timings for most things). I got into Tekken since they put one of my favorite characters ever, Geese Howard, into that game. Holy shit there was so much to learn, mechanically and with character match ups. Yeah, it could get frustrating sometimes, but at the same time it felt like you were never put into a box. Things were always interesting, staleness never set in. Some of these modern titles felt like they were stale from day 1.
AirLancer The game companies have to cater to lazy useless people. If someone picked yo starcraft now, they would quit within a few hours. Now they graphics have to be fantastic and lots of big explosions/moves. It also has to be simplified for the lazy lot, who literally want to use no brain power to play a game. Reminds me of when I used to play sf2 back in the day. Only the kids who went out their way to learn and play it, was able to compete at the arcades. When that bubble game came out, I saw all my lazy friends play it lol. And everyone else pissed off, because sf2 arcade got removed for this piece of shit noob game lol. We refused to play it, because it was pointless.
I feel like in the fighting game community this topic doesnt get as Much attention And isnt as well understood Or not understood at all Or maybe its some other reasons why people play sf5 over something else People are still playing sc2 after all
If you're not willing to grind and don't want to be anxious but want to have fun, play Use Map Settings for thousands of hours of fun. Trust me on this suggestion :)
Is there any even REMOTELY popular (aka not completely dead) rts that is like RIDICULOUSLY light on the mechanics side and heavy on the brainzy brainz side? I knwo this is a 5 year old vid but...
I LOVE.... LOOOVVEEE listening to Day9 talk about BW and SC2!! My god I wish he still did starcraft related content, I would love to just watch him ladder a few games a week. Come back to Stacraft please!! /beg
Honestly, they should've just made 3D broodwar instead of sc2. But now I want to play me some SC2 with SCBW original graphics. lol That'd look cute. Imagine 2D banelings rolling around the map, burrowing and jumping out from the ground. I was a plat Terran in SC2 but I would switch over to zerg if that ever happens. Which is just highly impossibly impossible I know.
Brood war player of 11 years here. You guys need to understand that you are not "fighting" the UI of the game just because it's difficult to learn. And even if you are, why is it a bad thing that the game is challenging to learn. Properly moving units, selecting hotkeys, shift deselecting and reselecting units in a control group to organize them, etc. These are all things that make Brood War the timeless classic that it is. Figuring out how to properly sequence your actions requires you to analyze the game more deeply in order to optimize your actions. Your ability to do this better than your opponent is one of the most important skills you can learn. One small example would be when you're macroing from your production facilities, do you choose to hotkey them and macro from your keyboard, or do you move the screen to your production block and use the mouse as well. These small mechanical choices or optimizations can make a lot of difference and choosing the right one could be the difference between winning and losing. Just one of many reasons that Brood War is my favorite game. I'd suggest that if you don't want challenging mechanics, then don't play Brood War.
"What makes starcraft broodwar so cool, is that it is SO hard to tell anything to do ANYTHING...easily" As someone who started with SC2 in 2010 and just recently (1 week ago) started playing SC1 finishing the original campaign and in the middle of BW campaign, this hit HOME.
I strongly disagree with your opinion. Imagine the following situation: -Sean, come out and solve this very long and difficult integral I've written down here. -Okay mister RumpleHussler, let me just... -And you cannot use pen or paper or calculator, you should do all the computations in your head! -... But why? -Because that will make this problem more skillful of course! -But what does it have to do with mathematical analysis? It's not like I'll get better at solving integrals if I try to keep it all in my head. It would look cooler, but why would it mean that I'm better at it? -You don't understand Sean, it's all about skiiiiiillll. And storing and computing giant formulas in you head is the part of this skiiiiiillll. So go on... And don't get me wrong, I like first starcraft just like the other guy, but saying that horrible pathfinding, unit grouping and squad limit were the advantages of the game is like saying that that that having an abusive husband/wife that beats you everyday is great for you because it will make you more sustainable to pain in the future. Some things just need to go away.
the analogy fails because the point of the professor's exercise is mental math skills. I'd find a mental math competition between people trying to solve something complex much more interesting than "pen and paper and calculator"
Nostalgia goggles are a powerful thing. There was a lot of discussion/complaining about this when SC2 first came out. Besides more subtle mechanical differences, there were a good few things streamlined and made not-broken because 90% of the people who were going to buy a game would feel better playing with them. It had nothing to do with being 'casual' or playing an 'easier' game, but social networks still got non-stop complaints alluding to that. Liking a game the way it was is all well and good. But it's important not to treat it like some god that can never be adjusted. I always kinda wondered what would've happened if Blizzard was more prudent about patching games in the BW era. A lot of that stuff would've ended up fixed and improved over the years, and I don't think it would've made people stop playing. anyway I'm just rambling now so I'm gonna go.
So hard to tell anything to do anything lol. Like u have to right click a zillion times or else they'll wander off in random directions. Thnx for that vid, too
I love you Sean and I think your content is great, but I have to really disagree with your points on mechanics. I'm also a player from the old Brood War days when wc2 and sc were the two games I had installed on my pc. There are times where quality of life improvements make the games better. There are ways to preserve the identity and soul of the game, while still improving it. Poor unit grouping and clunky unit pathing were designed specifically, but were just the best that they could do at the time. The players had to work around it. Allowing more efficient control of your units allows the game to be played how it was meant to be. Mechanics are still required to be good, but there's no reason to force someone to constantly spam clicks to force your unit to not spin around randomly. That's not fun, and it's not good game design. Building 50 zerglings, with the goal of trying to send them to attack should not require sending them in small groups, leaving some behind because you couldnt select them perfectly, or reselect some because they're stuck on the ones in front, should not be a thing. It doesn't make the game better, and it is not what starcraft is about. Just because that's how things were, doesn't mean that that's how things need to be in a remastered edition. There are still ways to play brood war in its original state if you want to experience things in a time capsule, but if they're going to remaster the game, they should at least give people to play with better controls. I mean, by the same argument, them increasing the size of the screen also changes the strategy of the game then. Now you can see more things, and won't need to scroll as far, changing how you'll need to control/deal with units like seige tanks. But we can all agree that a bigger screen to fit modern ratios is a much greater improvement and the minor sacrifice of "that's how it was" is acceptable. If they went and started changing units, adding units, etc, then that would be a big "no", as that would change the complete essence of the game. I just feel if they're going to remake the game, to give people two options: "classic" and "remastered" control schemes. Since the community seems divided on this. They could then also have this in multiplayer (perhaps allow people to disable "remastered" players from matching with them if they want to only face classic control scheme players). I also love brood war, but I feel that these little things need to change, as they are not what made the game great. The game was great in spite of the clunky controls, not because of them.
You can really see his love for the game; this a fantastic explanation of why it's so fun for people like me (literally one of y'all's moms) to watch other people play Starcraft. I'm no more proficient at Starcraft than I am at football; I can give it a shot but I'll probably end up just straining a muscle. I'm so excited at the prospect of watching Day[9] teach the game to a new generation!
Haha he just explained what happened to Street Fighter 5 without even talking about it. Capcom lowered skill bar necessary for pulling high damage combos and now game is unbearable.
It would be cool if Blizzard added a toggle to remove the 12 unit selection when playing solo. I agree with everything in this video. I'm a very casual gamer and liked SC2 because of the ease of play and it would be a blast to replay the campaign with that one mechanic toggled off.
I think this would appease the multiplayer competitive scene per this video which is awesome and make people like me happy that their old favorite game has a noob toggle built in.
I love BW, but the sad truth nowdays is that very few will be willing enough to practice for months to be good at the game, when they can play any given MOBA and feel good about their play without any practice.
Sure if you're masochistic and enjoy the torment of mastering the stone age mechanical demands of Brood War, then suit yourself. I think a better analogy is like being an Olympic swimmer but you decide to use high-resistance swimsuits and don't shave your legs because you think the added challenge earns you more merit.
I think the winner's mentality to this, along with appreciating the beauty of any game or craft, is that even some of the most well trained athletes fumble and fail in the olympics. The mastery of a task and the capacity to improve is awe inspiring and satisfying because they have pushed themselves to their limits, which would be meaningless in any competive standard if anyone was accommodated, or the best were handicapped.
and in one swell foop Day explained why broodwar has more longevity, depth and inherent fun than sc2 and why sc2 failed to achieve the same standards set by bw and became a boring esport to watch and no matter how much you fiddle around with the units, the game play will always feel stale
TheEsotericZebra He just likes new updates. He played the Legacy of the Void campaign, the Nova Ops missions, and now he's excited for the Brood War Remastered release, which he will probably play a few months and then stop. I strongly doubt he'll go back to being a Starcraft-centric channel.
He played SC2 and did shows on it for years. His brother was even an esports announcer for years. They definitely loved the game, and it is fun to watch. But after years of playing, he moved to other things, and that is ok.
I got a question about ZvZ in Broodwar. Often the Zergs get a second hatch to produce more units right away in their main but why not make it at their expansion NEAR THE GAS blocking at the choke? Expanding ofc doesnt make a lot of sense in ZvZ but creating a choke that then you can defend with sunkens and only a small amount of lings while getting easy access to a second gas later sounds amazing to me. I havent seen someone try anything like that ever and you can bet that all my ZvZs in remastered will look like this;)
I don't know exactly what map are you talking about, do you want to make hatchery inside your main near the choke or outside? Making it outside - you might as well expand, and if you make it near the choke it's safer to get the 2nd hatch near your main and just put a sunken in your drones in case of a ling all in. Assuming you're going 12 pool gas hatch some timings will strike just as the hatchery is being finished which is too late to make a sunken at the choke.
The reason why we dont expand in ZvZ is that a mass of zerglings will just crush us or that its too hard to defend a second location. We are building our hatch at the choke to create a location, a smaller choke something like a ramp, we can hopefully defend. Then with a smaller amount of lings that we put inside that choke we can hopefully hold just long enough for our sunken to finish and then our advantage is on. As you already pointed out there are hatch builds in ZvZ so if those work timing wise and they do moving the hatch could aswell. The map needs a gas somewhat close to the choke and a choke to close of with your hatch.
exactly, thats why i agree with keeping it... now if they release a new game with that crap you can expect people to bash their doors with pitchforks and torches.
Meh I played starcraft since its release, then sc2, but I really don't have much desire to go back. I'll play the HD release for some lolz, but that's about it. Sean is just nostalgic, and he has some interesting points, but they are clearly all based on nostalgia.
You should be pissed then that they're changing the aspect ratio. It's going to change the strategy completely. All these kids want their widescreen, it's going to ruin the carefully designed square screen gameplay.
From what I've heard, the aspect ratio and zoom capabilities are only for observers and watching replays. While actually playing the game you'll see the same things.
No. The screen won't be square while you're playing it. It'll fit on a widescreen monitor. Ergo, they have already changed the original game. Being able to see more is not just a fresh coat of paint (resolution upgrade), being able to see more allows you to be more... dare I say, EFFICIENT. It makes the game EASIER. Is easier bad? Not always, and not in this case. I don't see a single person complaining about this change. So how is improving unit pathing so your units dont clump up like retards, or allowing CTRL+click to select ALL units of that type ruin the game? They added select all in the original game, but it would only get a max of 12 units.... But the intention is clear. SELECT ALL. Due to the programming limitations, 12 unit groups is what you had to deal with. I mean, this whole argument for nostalgia is completely ridiculous. I loved starcraft, and would love to see proper refinements. Definitely not changing units/buildings/stats/music/colour, leave that all the same. But ffs, if you're going to Remaster a game, do just that. Korean pros will be great regardless, and allowing them to play more efficiently would result in players being able to execute their plans more efficiently. Remember, these benefits are fair and for all players. The whole notion of "emphasis on REAL TIME" as day 9 said is ridiculous. real time versus turn based is completely self evident. It's a strategy game through and through, you execute your strategy in real time. You are still a commander, you still have to micro your units, the game is still hard... that would not change.
"In SC2 it all seemed a too much 1-dimensional, since with advanced AI and interface they got everyone on the same level, competing for the few venues left for competing: build orders and timing. Macro and staging is now less of a factor, for one thing." i wholeheartly disagree with you on that. the big problem with SC2 is the design, the cartoony look, macroing is much easier now, no doubt, but so is sc compared with the original warcraft, and i dont see people calling it superior to WC2, or calling 2 better than 3. having better pathing, and being able to select everything makes the game easier to manage, but it does not make it easy.
nah. the controls are garbage for modern day standards. so this one is for korea an everyone will continue to walk away from it even though its an awsome game.
The point that mechanical requirements create strategies in their own right is a very good one, but I firmly believe players shouldn't have to fight the game's UI or engine in order to play. (Low unit selection limit, dragoon AI) A game with an easy-to-control engine is more accessible, and provided the game design is deep enough (don't quite think SC2 has reached this point) there can be just as much strategic depth, and said depth can also be more appreciated by viewers.
well as he already said, the clunkyness IS "the game". I believe we should respect that and respect the players that like it that way. Instead of trying to change the game in an effort to "fix" it to our personal liking, we should accept that BW isnt our cup of tea and find a game that suits our preferences better. You can look at it this way: If an fps player doesnt like the way an mmorpg works, hes not gonna push for the game to be "fixed". Hes just gonna play quake.
I agree it shouldn't feel like you're fighting the game engine or UI to accomplish common tasks. It is the goal of every game to find the right interface for user-to-game-engine for a fun balance between the difficulty and capability of the player. Modern gaming use cooldowns, resource bars, and unlocks for this and older games had continues/lives, save points, and combos. These examples aren't perfect parallels but they do demonstrate that short of reading your mind every game will have barriers that keep you from performing perfectly. That said, I think we all have to keep in mind that even if the barriers in Starcraft aren't to your (modern) tastes they have struck a balance that created a lot of enjoyment for a great many people.
I mean the thing is that it's sort of arbitrary which mechanics are "intended" and which ones come out of accidental flaws in the game. It's just that when people make new, flashy versions of old games, they tend to smooth over those unintended rough edges, but without adding anything new to keep the level of depth. This is basically what you can see when you compare SC:BW to SC2, DotA to LoL, SF4 to SF5 and so on. All of them are examples of taking an older hard game and simply taking away hard things that were considered "non-essential" without adding anything new, thus making a less sustainable competitive game. Like, I'm sure it could be done, somehow, but the problem is that it's actually super hard to purposefully create depth, since that would require you to basically fully understand how the mechanics of the game are gonna be used before you released it. And if you do, then you can bet that players are gonna discover the same things pretty quickly and exhaust the new things they can find in the game. It's good to not have full control of the game you're making, basically. Add characters/units/mechanics because the idea seems cool or whatever rather than because you want to fulfill a specific template, and let people figure out their own uses.
First time I've found myself completely disagreeing with Day9 and compelled to downvote a video of his. StarCraft 2 has it's problems, I'm not going to argue that. However, the control group improvements alone make playing the brood War campaign, and multiplayer if anyone ever makes/has made a custom map for it, far more enjoyable when ported into SC2 than it *ever* will be in SC:R. On top of that, any enjoyment I would get from SC:R would be completely destroyed by the rage inducing pathing issues. When I load up a game I want to *play a game*, not fight with a UI as I try desperately to get it to do what I actually want it to do. I'm sure there are other bugs that infuriated me, but I haven't played Brood War very much since around the time WarCraft 3 came out or so. I loved Brood War back in the day, but without bug fixes and a modern UI this has nothing to offer but a nostalgia trip that can already be done better in SC2. The only old school blizzard game that could actually benefit from a remaster, without any other changes, is Diablo 2. On a side note, due to some idiots I ran into while commenting on another video, I feel I must make clear that *I do not have a problem with muta stacking*. If it's a bug, as someone tried to tell me, then as far as I'm concerned it's the only one that doesn't actually need to be fixed.
wtf muta stacking is the worste of the fucking worste an thats the only one you dont have a problem with? wtf is wrong with you? so workers helping units bypass mineral fields is worse then muta stacking for oyu? jesus christ your logic is way flawed id rather get rid of muta stacking any day rather than mineral bypasses
Travis Biber Removing muta stacking could have implications for game balance, and Brood War *is* a fairly balanced game as is. I wasn't referring to workers though, what I was referring to are the frequent times when you move out with your ground army only to have several units decide to ignore orders and go exploring random places on the map instead, because the pathing for units is absolute garbage.
You realize if you could stack infinite mutas it would totally break the balance? Jaedong one of the best players of all time, one of his trademark skills was being able to control 2 (count them) 2 groups of 11 mutalisks at once and it was one of the things that made him an unstoppable monster, now imagine if every dumb idiot zerg player could control as many as they wanted, flying around 1 shotting command centers, lol...
The fact you're using singleplayer as your point of reference just shows you're in a different place to Day[9]. Your comments are totally reasonable and for sure you don't want to deal with this shit in SP. But at no point in your comment do you mention 1v1 multiplayer, which is basically what Starcraft is about. For the record, can't wait for the Diablo 2 remaster either. I hope it's coming - I am making daily offerings to my shrine of Baal
this is the best rant i've heard in a while since plague of gripes complained about dragon ball for about an hour, very well done, you got my every bit of attention and even tho i don't play that well it all made sense when you explained it
i dont agree at all. these bullshit annyoing things are really just bullshit annoying things. should they be changed for SCR? no. but dont u dare deliver me dat bullshit in any new game in 2017. i want to fight my opponent, not the UI. or the pathing.
Agreed. Remastered working just like starcraft 1 did back in the day is a good thing, given it's targeted audience. His logic is not wrong either: the fun in a strategy game comes from the challenge of overcoming limitations and obstacles. I just disagree that this challenge should come from dated mechanics rather than the game design itself.
We can see this difference in broodwar vs SC2 very clearly. SC2 has infinite unit selection, better unit pathing etc etc and while I love SC2, the changes arnt purely good. The way everything paths so well makes armies turn into death balls making for pretty dull fights. The early and mid game fights are great, the early harassment is always super intense and fun to watch but when it gets later into the game and armies get big the only micro worth the APM are splitting marines against banelings and stutter stepping marines, thats about it. Besides that the big decider in a batlle is what angle you come into the fight from, the composition of your army vs theirs and such, most importantly who has the most stuff (decided by that early harassment). In broodwar, because every single unit was so unbelievably dumb the amount of value you could get out of personally controlling a given unit rather than just A clicking was massive, you could get up to 11 times the value out of a unit by controlling it well in the fight rather than A clicking. At any given moment controlling your units was both incredibly hard, and incredibly rewarding in a way that it just isnt in SC2, not in the later stages of the game anyway Now that said, I personally dont like to play micro management intensive games, I prefer playing SC2 to broodwar and I like the "dumb" compositions like zealot archon with no abilities and such to worry about so I can just spend all my time trying and failing to macro. Im definitely not saying broodwar is definitively better, just that SC2 and its smarter unit AI and more convenient unit selection isnt strictly better. Its a tradeoff which makes for very different games. SC2 has a is more accessible to a wider audience, but bejeweled is a more accessible game to a wider audience than europa universalis (an extreme comparison but you get the idea). The less accessible game isnt worse, its just different, aimed at a more niche audience
SCII was never about fighting your opponent, it was a game of "Follow the build older" Build this to start, if scout this structure, switch to this. Person who could execute the build order the fastest won. It was a perpetual game of look up build orders and practice them until you were perfect at it. With SC you could only follow the build order for a few minutes before things would get impossibly hard to keep optimal, after which you had to play the game towards your greatest strength(s) and use that to beat your opponent. Most Americans of course didn't care much to play the game with the default settings which is why you would see a lot of BGH no rush maps, where people could build up their massive armies and throw them at each other. Though when watching people play SC at the highest level it's a sight to behold, because what you're watching is two people balancing a dozen spinning plates while trying to get the other person to drop them.
+Volteux You contradict yourself heavily when you state: *I just disagree that this challenge should come from dated mechanics rather than the game design itself* The "dated" mechanics are absolutely part of the design. The reason why the "dated" mechanics are important is because the player who spends the most time practicing will prevail. This aspect alone "rewards" players who practice very hard. In SC2, you could win by simply doing a strategy without having any mechanical skill at all which allowed lesser players to win over much better players. But with Brood War, if a lesser player executed a great strategy, the better player could overcome that strategy with superior micro to survive it, then superior macro/strategy to come back and win regardless of how far down they were. Whereas in SC2, if you were at a disadvantage, you were pretty much screwed in the end because the opposing player had the same mechanical advantages as you leaving only strategy to be the way you would crawl back into the game which would be nullified by a defensive opposing player.
Not all RTS's rely on rock/paper/scissors for strategy, and I still find it hard to buy the argument that units walking in circles and mutalisks requiring an overlord to group together is a good thing for the game. No modern RTS, or any RTS made in the past 15 years, would be acceptable with these types of mechanics. Granted the RTS community is on life support, seeing as how MOBAs have taken over, and Broodwar Remastered just might save it.
Have fun with your 12 unit limit, your lack of multiple building select, hotkey binds, building ques, worse graphics and less content. I'm laughing at people who try to put SC1 over SC2. Don't get me wrong, SC1 is good, absolutely, but to say that it's *better* than a game that offers more of everything is just insane. I mean, SC2 has more units, more content, more campaign, the arcade, better graphics, and so many quality of life improvements. All that people ever seem to hold SC1 as better for is soundtrack, voices, and cutscenes. First of all, that's subjective, and second, gameplay is more important, because once the novelty of a good story wears off, then memories is all you have but it's a one time experience. Good and varied gameplay can keep you entertained for months and ever years. SC2 gameplay > SC1 gameplay.
![[Highlight] StarCraft Remastered Rant](/img/logo.svg){kind=logo}
