AHF Military sabre sparring Mike vs Nick 2

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Another sabre sparring clip, this time with our even newer Sabres. The last clip featured a few prototype models from Peter Regenyei. These two are our new club standard finished model. They are a little heavier and now accurately represent a 19th century British Infantry sabre in terms of handling, as well as many other European equivalents of the period.
Again we are avoiding leg strikes until we have better leg protection. Mike is in Red stripe trousers.

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26 мар 2013

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Комментарии : 69

@Nikos3000 11 лет назад

I would say so definitely. We have something like 50 of his swords in the club now, longswords, one handers, sabres, sideswords. He is one of the few which can make blades flex only in the tip and therefore maintain rigidity during engagements. I think the fact he fights often and well gives him a huge advantage over most smiths too.

@Nikos3000 11 лет назад

The preference of cut over thrust alters over time. The last infantry officers sword/sabre focused on thrust work for example. The military equivalent of the rapier is what we now call sidesword, basically a rapier hilt with a shorter, broader blade fitted. As carried by soldiers throughout the rapier era, and it still used plenty of thrusting.

@Nikos3000 11 лет назад

We are always keen to do mixed weapon fighting from any traditions. Hard to find people to do it sometimes though.

@Nikos3000 11 лет назад

According to original treatise and as it is seen on these videos, since 2006. However we regularly met up to fight with swords since 96 using a range of other martial arts skills and experimenting.

@Nikos3000 11 лет назад

They were made to our spec so are someway between two of the models on there. Best thing is email him and ask for the AHF spec sabre and he'll know what to do. We've had a lot of use out of these now and absolutely love them.

@Nikos3000 11 лет назад

We aren't aiming for the sword, but often a cut to the lead arm (which is then parried) may look as such as it can look like a cut short, as will a feint which will deliberately be made short. If you look closely you will see almost every cut in the fight is made at the distance and direction that it would meet it's target were it not for the defence of the opponent, hence why when strikes do land in this fight you can see them hitting mask, shoulder, collar and lead arm, as well as thrusts.

@Nikos3000 11 лет назад

Yeh, even at its core principal the rapier is a single time weapon (defend and attack in single motions) whereas the sabre is parry-riposte (double time). The rapier basically uses many of the sabre actions as secondary attacks, whereas the sabre is a much simpler system. It can also be learnt far quicker than most other weapons like rapier, longsword etc. Ultimately the reason for it looking so different in the fight is because of its massive cutting power and how that is used.

@razakhan23465 11 лет назад

Thanks

@Nikos3000 11 лет назад

It is certainly true that some weapons have advantage over others, and simply put, the shield as has advantage over pretty much any single sword as it can safely close distance whilst freeing up the weapon hand to strike. Hence why shields have been so immensely popular throughout history. Of course, the longsword is a weapon carried for self defence, and usually a sidearm in war, when sword and shield is a true war combination.

@EnhancedNightmare 11 лет назад

Curved sabers are used in similar fashion to straight ones, there are some more tricks but it is same in essence.

@Duchess_Van_Hoof 11 лет назад

Most interesting, I thought I noticed a resemblence. Was wondering about army swords (broadswords) and I suspect that cutting would be a lot more common that in civilian rapier fencing. I was a bit dumbfounded when I couldn't find any manuscripts regarding army-swords. Then I realised that they're the military equivalent of rapiers and thus often utilise the same style.

@ElliFong 11 лет назад

Yeah, I consider having him recreate the templar's longsword since he is really good in recreation too. I saw few of his fight, he is pretty good at intimate(I forgot how to spell that) his opponent

@CollinClary 11 лет назад

Nikos, the toothpick remark comes from the Prevost d'Armes of my fencing school. She started with rapier back in 1998, she is by no means a horrible rapierist. Now, given that you've never met my fencing master, your skepticism is understandable. That said, he's a Maître d'Armes, 5th dan Black-belt and has studied Boxing, Ju Jitsu, Aikido, Shorinji Kenpo, Iaido, and Kendo. My point is that, yes it does matter how good the master is, or anyone for that matter, regardless of the weapon.

@michaelroth8459 10 лет назад

classical/ heavy saber tournament will be held this year, 2014, at the KC ten fest. All are welcome. Contact five rings fencing in Kansas city for more details. p.s. Also there will be a rapier tournament the same weekend.

@nachtpferd 11 лет назад

Been fencing for 9 years. I've purchased some hutton training sabers. I was wondering if you guys recommend where to purchase good armor to spar in. Leon Paul? Blue Gauntlet? etc. Did you just compile a punch of different types from different vendors for protection? For instance the knee and elbow pads?

@CollinClary 11 лет назад

Someone once said: "I don't agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." It's obvious at this point that neither of us is going to convince the other on this particular matter. I know I'm right, you know you're right; makes debating a subject rather impossible. I still maintain in general (there is such a thing as luck) any "advantages" offered by a weapon can be nullified using correct technique. I say we let the matter drop, it's getting us nowhere.

@Nikos3000 11 лет назад

I know very little about middle eastern weapons in terms of how they were used, there is so little surviving information that often it is hard to tell. However I doubt there is much difference. In fact in the 18c onwards it became very fashionable for British officers to use Shamshir/tulwar/mameluke sword blades on British hilts, or ones based on them. As for using the offhand on the pommel, that is done in Langes messer which is an early sabre form. I think there would be plenty in common.

@Nikos3000 11 лет назад

Go to our website (Academy of Historical Fencing) or Facebook page and you will find a pdf equipment list of everything we use and recommend.

@owlan99 11 лет назад

The 1796 light cavalry sword was based upon the talwar, but with a different hilt, and it was so deadly effective that the french begged the british to stop using them lo just a good example!

@Tyler_Lalonde- 9 лет назад

in regards to your comment on if you use the off hand you screwed up your measure. my thought would be its because they are closing and choosing to go through the opponent rather then take time in back and forth way that usually happens.

@razakhan23465 11 лет назад

Do you think swordplay with sabers is similar to swordplay with scimitars or shamshirs? I know they tend to be a bit more curved, and have heard a few people mention the possibility of using them with one hand or arm on the back of the shamshir to drive into an opponent at close range.

@Gamerlike69 11 лет назад

Awesome :)

@Nikos3000 11 лет назад

We've tried mismatched weapons against a range of opponents and skill levels around the world, and without a doubt some have advantage over another. Rapier and dagger has advantage over sword and buckler, spear has advantage over longsword and so on. Swetnam is one who discusses this. As for rapier vs toothpick, well unless the rapierist truly sucked it wouldn't matter good the master was. Remember, has advantage over doesn't mean automatically wins, it means literally what it means.

@Nikos3000 11 лет назад

The theory of fighting against a spear with a sword is actually incredibly simple,That's not the problem, it's dealing with the speed and timings of the spear, which are vastly quicker than any sword combination due to the leverage gained from such a wide grip on such a quick and long ranged weapon.

@CollinClary 11 лет назад

Well I'm obviously not Nikos but I'm fairly certain I can answer for him on this one. ;) The answer to that sort of question is always the same: whoever is better with that particular weapon against the person with the different weapon; the person who at the critical moment has the superior will. It has nothing to do with the weapon itself, rather it is the person holding the weapon.

@Serb248 11 лет назад

Nikos I have a question for you: In longsword vs sword&shield fight which one has bigger chance?

@aietes 11 лет назад

Awesome! Xairetismata!

@CollinClary 11 лет назад

Yes I know, or as it's often put at my fencing school, "simple doesn't mean easy." However, nothing in a bout is easy, and it can be done by a moderate swordsman if the timing is correct. Almost anyone with a sword fighting someone with a spear is automatically put in the shorter, weaker (slower) position by virtue of the weapon. So you must employ defensive infighting as your tactic. When fighting someone who has a spear, timing is the key.

@ChamorruWarrior 10 лет назад

At :11 I looked down at my food and all I heard was CLANG CLANG CLANG CLANG CLANG!!! I looked up like... o.O WTF just happened, was that real!?! haha

@808prowler 8 лет назад

It was pretty badass

@jamestyler4676 10 лет назад

Very nice play, Wondering why you guys don't use the hanging guard more, and why you are not using your off hand to trap and control. Also, very few thrusts this game.

@Nikos3000 10 лет назад

We make most use of the outside guard as is very popular in many sabre manuals. We mostly work from Rowarth. We use hanging parries a lot, but handing guards less so. Mainly because use of outside invites your opponent in better than hanging. Usually if the offhand is used in sabre it is because somebody has screwed up their measure. And as for thrusts, they are kept to a minimum in sabre due to the risk of riposte after a handing parry.

@Nikos3000 10 лет назад

***** No. We work from 'The Art of Defence of Foot'. which is attributed to Rowarth/Taylor. You will find two editions freely available on good books. First published in 1798, the 1824 version is relatively unchanged and easier to read due to the later printing type. We much prefer this manual to Hutton.

@Nikos3000 10 лет назад

***** Not massively so. But there are some things we simply prefer, for a start, the time period. Hutton is writing at a time when sword usage is already on the decline and a shift towards straight more thrust based weapons. Rowarth's text was written in the Napoleonic era with later editions going into the 1820s. It is also a heavier sabre that mostly used a hammer grip, as opposed to Hutton's insistence on the thumb on the back strap (as Rowarth only recommends this for light weapons like the spadroon). These differences are enough to be more interested in it.

@VictorHarderHesel 11 лет назад

What are those sabres called on Peter's site? I'm interested in buying a pair :)

@Nikos3000 11 лет назад

They cost about 180 Euros and are made by Peter Regenyei.

@CollinClary 11 лет назад

As for fighting someone with a spear, here's one possible course of action: Let's assume I have a rapier. My opponent thrusts at me with the spear. I parry segunda while making a traversa to the right, raise my point up - trapping the spear (at least temporarily) on the quillons, and immediately thrust and pass forward. In this scenario, the shaft of the spear actually helps guide the blade to the target. Even if the spear comes of my quillons, by that point the spear head is safely behind me.

@CollinClary 11 лет назад

In my research I haven't found any sources that state that one weapon offers the fighter a greater chance of "winning" than the other. Granted, I haven't read as much as you. That being said, at my school one of the most common questions asked by new students is: "If one person had one weapon, and the other had a different weapon, who has the better chance of winning?" The answer is always: if I had a rapier and the fencing master had a toothpick, who would win? That gets the point across.

@epic0wnag 10 лет назад

what is the point of balance on these sabers? do sabers with a point of balance closer to the hilt have an advantage over sabers that are more tip heavy?

@Robert399 9 лет назад

epic0wnag I don't know about these sabres but in regards to your second questions, neither is "an advantage". Balance further out increases cutting power and balance closer to the hand increases manoeuvrability. Generally cavalry sabres were more blade-heavy than infantry sabres because they were required to do less fencing of this sort.

@AcademyofHistoricalFencing 9 лет назад

epic0wnag Sorry I missed this one, but Robert R comment has drawn my eye to it, and he has made some good points. The sabres in this video have a point of balance of 5" (12.5cm), which is about typical and representative of the sharp originals of which they represent. Robert's comments about hitting power and agility are spot on. The more hitting power you want the further the Pob should be from the guard. As a comparison, if you look at the sabres used in Olympic sport fencing, or duelling sabres, they have balance points very close to the hilt. This allows the blade to be effectively flicked around with rapid stop start actions that are well suited to snappy parry-riposte techniques and where the aim is to draw blood or score a point, as opposed to deal an incapacitating or lethal injury. The heavier the tip, the more you need to use the weight of the blade in a pendulum motion to build speed. This is why when using light sport sabres you will see a lot of cutting actions made from the elbow where the blade is snapped back and forth, whereas with a heavier military style sabre with Pob much further forward, you will see much more use of moulinets, where full rotations at the wrist are used to generate power and speed.

@Serb248 11 лет назад

I know that the skills of the weapon wielder are the most important, but beside that the type of the weapon can be juast as important as the skills.

@Can-O-Bees 11 лет назад

I would love to see you guys spar with a kendoka

@ElliFong 11 лет назад

Look like Peter Regenyei is one of the best sword smith

@CollinClary 11 лет назад

No, I hear your point loud and clear, I'm simply stating that based on my research, my experience with combat, and what I've been taught, your point isn't a valid one. In what way are you at a disadvantage if your opponent has a spear and you have, say, a rapier? Every "advantage" a particular weapon has can be nullified and/or turned into a disadvantage given you use correct technique.

@61zulu77 8 лет назад

Where can I find one of these sabers? Thanks

@AcademyofHistoricalFencing 8 лет назад

They came from Peter Regenyei, a Hungarian smith who we buy a lot from. At the moment he has stopped production of these sabres as he has lost the supplier of the bowl guards, but he should be back with them soon.

@61zulu77 8 лет назад

Thanks very much

@Nikos3000 11 лет назад

Of course you have to change aspects of style to face different weapons, but of course some weapons have advantage over another. Two hand spear for example, gives clear advantage of spear, rapier and dagger has advantage over sword and buckler. Skill still accounts for a lot, but it is a noteworthy modifier, which is why a moderate spearman can beat and far more highly skilled swordsman.

@Nikos3000 11 лет назад

Not that one weapon is better than another, but gives advantage over another yes. This isn't just my opinion though, You just have to look at respected sources of the time period who discuss what has advantage over another, and a moderate swordsman stands terrible odds against a skilled spear, no matter what skills he has. Experience against a weapon can help, like experience of going against rapier and dagger for a longswordsman will help, but the rapier still has the advantage.

@Nikos3000 11 лет назад

The olympic sabre has little in common with military sabre. The tradition comes from dueling sabre which were far lighter weapons anyway. They have taken those are made them far lighter again and extremely flexible. This makes them very safe, but they move and handle nothing like a military sabre. They can weigh as little as 300 grams, when a military sabre weighs close to three times that weight. As for competition, it is coming back, but will never for the olympics.

@Nikos3000 11 лет назад

Of course it matters how good someone is, otherwise any practice would be useless. All I am saying is, doesn't matter if you're the best fighter in the world, your chances of survival against a sword (handled by someone competent) with a toothpick are almost zero. And yes, we practice with various masters from Olympic fencing, kendo, Tae Kwon Do, Ken Jitsu, Kali and various wrestling forms on a regular basis, as many of our members come from those traditions/ and or teach clubs on their styles.

@Georgeifyable 11 лет назад

Is there a reason why you're striking each other's sabres rather than going for the body? Not criticizing, just interested.

@matthewpham9525 4 года назад

Hello from 2020! Most of the time they’re going for the body, but one of them manages to parry so it looks like the attacker is going for the blade. In the cases the attacker is actually going for the blade however, it’s to beat the blade from the line of attack, it’s basically a preparation.

@anhthiensaigon 11 лет назад

why are the sabres used in competitions like olympics always too yielding/soft? they're very pliant that can be easily bended by bare hand, not hard as the swords used in this video. i think it's very unrealistic that a sword so soft that cannot block an incoming hard blade. so what is the diffenrence between that kind of fencing and that showed in this video? are there another name between these kinds? and why don't people use hard blades in competitions?

@Nikos3000 11 лет назад

Then we disagree, that's life. I know without any doubt at all that one weapon has advantage over another, a fact which is proven in history, in documentation and in practice. Which is why no matter how much a swordsman practices against spear, they will always be at a disadvantage against it. Rapier too, every sword has disadvantage against the two handed spear, until other factors are brought into play, such as shields, armour, etc. You cannot nullify all advantages.

@alexafaraday886 11 лет назад

I'm pretty sure kendoka is a Japanese martial art of fencing. I would love for you guys to spar with a katana.

@Nikos3000 11 лет назад

'Can' be done yes, but you're missing the point. It isn't about what can be done but what is a likely outcome. What are your realistic chances of success, and a moderate or competent swordsman is at a major disadvantage against a moderate spearman.

@Nikos3000 11 лет назад

Thats getting pedantic. I was really using the term overall for them all as it was used historically in European swordsmanship, for a teacher of the arts. And that is simply untrue. It doesn't have to determine the outcome, but I never said it was an absolute certainty, advantage merely gives an advantage, not provide automatic victory.

@TchaikovskyFDR 10 лет назад

The Sport of Fencing is completely different Fencing as of now. The sport is designed to be to the touch and minimize the amount of force in it, so its not as unfair as football where they literally Have 6000 Calorie diets in order to create more muscle mass. Therefore it's complete different than the intention of Fencing as a duel because you're not trying to kill a guy and lop off his arm.

@eoagr1780 5 лет назад

What’s your point? Sport fencing developed from Italian dueling saber while military sabre as the name suggests, from the military as a martial practice for the battlefield. They’re “cousin arts” rather than the first one being a descendant from the latter. It’s not that you have to hit as hard as possible to score in m sabre, just well enough, there’s no need to be a insanely strong person as an American football player quarterback. It’s not who strikes the hardest but who strikes the best with out being hit, almost like combining epee rules with sport saber.

@CollinClary 11 лет назад

"And yes, we practice with various masters from Olympic fencing..." Well, strictly speaking there are no "Olympic fencing" masters, just "fencing" coaches. (I'm hesitant to even refer to it as fencing, it's closer to a game of tag with car antennas.) That being said, if you've practiced and worked with people who do those martial arts, then you should realize that the weapon doesn't determine the outcome of the fight! It's purely about the fighter; training is to cultivate skill and the will.

@CollinClary 11 лет назад

Advantage: "superiority of position or condition." I'm hardly in a superior position when I fence my master, regardless of the weapons. In fact, he's much more skillful than me, thus he has the advantage. True, advantage doesn't mean automatically win, but it has nothing to do with the weapon. Rather it has to do with the fighter who at the critical moment has the superior will. Muhammad Ali once said: “You have to have the skill, and the will. But the will must be stronger than the skill.”

@CollinClary 11 лет назад

"All I am saying is, doesn't matter if you're the best fighter in the world, your chances of survival against a sword (handled by someone competent) with a toothpick are almost zero." Nikos, MY point is that the weapon in your hand doesn't mean anything if your opponent is more skillful, and has a greater will to fight at the critical moment. You are simply not going to be able to beat someone who is more skillful and and who has greater will than you, even if they are unarmed.

@Nikos3000 11 лет назад

Anyone 18 or over.

@CollinClary 11 лет назад

I have to emphatically disagree with you on this one. Yes, all weapons have their own particular advantages and disadvantages, however it doesn't make one weapon "better" than the other, nor does a particular weapon give the fighter an advantage over the other. Yes, a moderate spearman could beat a highly skilled swordsman...just as a moderate swordsman could beat a highly skilled spearman. Whoever is better with their particular weapon against someone with a different weapon is going to win.

@Nikos3000 11 лет назад

Not true either. A competent spearmen can beat a far more skilled swordsman. A lucky fighter can still win against someone better, or through well applied technique and timing. Greater will is certainly important, just as skill is. If less skilled fighters couldn't win, we'd never see surprise victories.

@CollinClary 11 лет назад

No, it's really not. The type of weapon is indeed an important factor, it determines how you must fight; if you fight someone with a longsword the same way that you fight someone with a spear for example, you're an idiot. However, one type of weapon doesn't inherently give one fighter the advantage over the other. You simply change your fighting style to accommodate for that particular person and the weapon they're using.

@omegaphoenix068 11 лет назад

This is how you are supposed to properly use an actual saber... Wished the Olympics committee changed saber fencing for this instead. What they have for a saber does not resemble in any way the real deal. Also, the saber matches are way to fast, this looks fare more entertaining...