Alan Moore is spot on about Stan Lee. In fact, in one of the "Origins: books that Marvel produced, Stan Lee talks about how he received the penciled pages from Fantastic Four #48 and was surprised to see a character on a flying surfboard. When he asked Jack who it was, Kirby responded by saying that he thought a supreme being like Galactus would have a herald to announce his coming. Yet, Stan Lee has taken credit for creating the Silver Surfer.
Basically, Jack Kirby was the writer and artist and Stan Lee was his editor and it's a gross injustice to equate the majority of Marvel's characters as Stan Lee's creations. I don't hate Stan Lee or anything, he was comic books hype man and the face and voice of them....but people need to give credit where credit is due.
@@Vebinz Without New Gods introduction, I argue that a ton of DC works never would have happened. Not to mention the Demon. If you knew how DC hamstrung Kirby there too, you might think otherwise. They literally had people retouch his art because it didn't match the house style. DC's publishing history is just as restrictive and greed ridden as Marvel.
Jack in DC literally made 4th dimension and New Gods, including character of Darkseid. And his drawing is so vivid and colorful. He's very influential and talented.
the fuck are you talking about jack kirby is as well known as stan lee not sure why this pissing contest has continued its kinda like the argumen marve/dc is better than dc/marvel or i only read one or the other congrats your a flaiming idiot i read both and love both because im not gonna cut off my nose to spite my face. slow clap yall are some real geniouses let me tell ya.
The main point of what Moore is saying: in the Marvel Universe, there is massive disparity with the amount of credit given to Stan Lee vs others, most notably Jack Kirby, who people do not realize created so much of the MCU you see on the big screen. In bright lights it reads: "Marvel's Avengers!" Reality: the original Avengers are a superhero team created by Jack Kirby, consisting of superheroes created by Jack Kirby. It should say, "Kirby's Avengers" on all the posters. JK Rowling did something similar with her Harry Potter/Wizard World mega-creation. If she had done that in the context of Marvel Comics during the Silver Age, she would own none of the rights to her characters. She would receive no royalties. Her name would not be the first one you see in the credits. She would not even own the physical paper pages she used to write the stories. Conversely, Jack Kirby's estate would be worth billions more than Rowling if he had owned the rights to his characters. If proper credit were given to Kirby, he would widely be considered one of the greatest artists of the 20th century (and not just comic or commercial artist - the cover of Captain America Comics #1 is one of the most significant pieces of outsider art of all time), a title I believe he deserves. And that's the side of the story many people don't understand, the scale of Kirby's creations and their inherent artistic, as well as financial value. If the MCU continues for 25 more years (not guaranteed, but not out of the question), then Jack Kirby characters at the box office could eclipse the entire HISTORY of the remaining box office. Kirby characters already out gross all Star Wars, Harry Potter, DC Comics, Lord of the Rings, James Bond, and Fast and the Furious movies COMBINED. It's staggering, but not out of the question when you consider Jack Kirby created: the Avengers, X-Men, Fantastic Four, Eternals, Inhumans, Captain America, Iron Man, Hulk, Thor (comics), Ant Man, Wasp, Silver Surfer, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Black Panther, Groot, Professor X, Cyclops, Marvel Girl, Beast, Angel, Iceman, Magneto, Juggernaut, Dr. Doom, Loki (comics), Galactus, Kang the Conqueror, Red Skull, Baron and Helmut Zemo, Ronan the Accuser and the Kree, Skrulls, Ego the Living Planet, Adam Warlock, Wakanda... the list goes on, and on, and on, and on (see link below), and leads to one inevitable conclusion: hail to the King Kirby, baby! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Characters_created_by_Jack_Kirby
Stan Lee is a master but Jack Kirby was *the* master.. there's a reason the One Above All was drawn as Kirby.. Lee gave Marvel personality, Kirby gave it life.
There's an interview with Stan Lee where he tells the story about the creation of the Silver Surfer. Jack Kirby handed in his pages, and Stan says he was surprised to see this silvery character on a surfboard. "Who is this?" Stan says he asked Jack. Jack explains that he felt an entity as powerful as Galactus should have a herald. Stan finishes the story with "and that is how WE created the character of the Silver Surfer". I loved Stan as a kid, but I've come to realize he was just a salesman who took a lot of credit he didn't deserve.
Stan Lee deserves the credit because he invented lots of characters with Jack Kirby even if it is true that Jack Kirby does not deserve to be in Stan's shadow both deserve the credits because they are the ones who created Marvel
You mean like Walter B Gibson the man Moore doesn't credit even though his famous Character V is just a shallow rip off of Gibson's character The Shadow just with a third of the personality and half the conviction and morality of The Shadow
One mistake Moore makes is on Stan's age when Simon and Kirby created Cap. Stan was 19 at the time. The rest seems pretty accurate. Stan discussed outlines with artists and added dialogue after they brought the artwork in. Kirby and Ditko had visual narrative sense and could supply the context for dialogue but couldn't give it flair. Stan did that. The problem isn't the credit Stan got, it's the credit the others weren't given. Stan should have made more of an effort to balance things.
This only true, in certain instances. Mist of what he stole the credit for, he didn't when ask, he just assumed the roll and no one really questioned it, for some reason.
When Joe Simon created his first drawings of what would become Captain America in late 1939, Stan Lee would have been 16 years old. His first professional work came as a text filler story in the third issue of Captain America in 1941. He was 19. The point Moore was trying to make was that Stan Lee claimed to have been creating Captain America when his job consisted of being the teenage office gofer. It's ludicrous.
I couldn’t find anywhere where Stan takes credit for captain America. And the only thing I could find in regard to Steve and spider-man is Stan saying in his mind the person who came up with the original idea should be the creator. Kind of a Walt Disney cresting the idea for Mickey/name and I believe it was ub iwerks designing him situation
@@zacharymiller9808 exactly, Stan Lee was never credited for captain America, so the whole age discussion, apart from being inaccurate since Lee was born in 1922, is off topic.
CelestialWoodway Did i point out he said that fucktard, i just mentioning something a lot of morons like you would think like steve ditko had the idea of spider-man when in reality he made the iconic costume compare to jack spiderman design which if it turn into the final result would not even be close as popular mainsteam like the one we got. Anyway reality check stan lee had the idea and personality of peter parker idea from the get go from having real life problems and have flaws which he did in fantastic 4 before spider-man, back then with marvel when stan lee was literally writing all the stories for every single comic book tittle at the time.before he retired.
Gamer You must be a complete idiot when i said stefe ditko did the amazing art while stan lee had the idea and personality of peter parker and story writter, get your facts straight,
Comic book legend Wally Wood said this... Did I say Stanley had no smarts? Well, he DID come up with two sure fire ideas… the first one was “Why not let the artists WRITE the stories as well as draw them?”… And the second was … ALWAYS SIGN YOUR NAME ON TOP …BIG”. And the rest is history … Stanley, of course became rich and famous … over the bodies of people like Bill Everett and Jack Kirby
Stan Lee's best talent was salesmanship. i know this is mostly second hand stuff. And I know that the Marvel style back in the day the artists had a lot of story telling abilities. I'd like to think that there was a mix of Stan and Jack that made Marvel work (And Ditko too) but yeah, Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko don't get nearly enough credit.
You can like to think what you want, it wasn't a mix. 99% of FF, X-Men, Captain America, Black Panther, Avengers, came from Kirby. 99% of Spider-Man and Dr. Strange came from Ditko. Lee made a couple of suggestions, named a few names, did some copy-editing, while Kirby and Ditko created characters and worlds for those characters to inhabit. Ditko died poor. Kirby should have died with tens of millions or hundreds of millions of dollars in the bank. They made Marvel a billion dollar company, and got bupkis for it. Not nearly enough credit? Marvel kept the Kirby Estate in litigation until 2014, just five years ago, and twenty years following the death of Kirby, and Lee was the face of the company the entire time!
@@menghao737 that's not true, Lee made all the scripts and dialogues for the comic he wrote. Sure ditko and Kirby don't get enough credit, but we shouldn't discredit stan work in the comics.
It’s wrong to give Lee all of the credit, however it’s also equally wrong to act like he did nothing or had hardly any involvement. If you look at Lee characters they have many similarities, mainly in that the are usually selected as very human evrymen. Even fantastic characters like Thor and the Hulk are given specifically human sides. When you read Kirby and Ditko’s work outside of their collaborations with Lee the writing style is not the only difference, but rather the entire basis and structure of the worlds characters and stories changes. Take Kirby’s New Gods or Ditko’s Mr A as examples. Both could be considered to be in the eyes of their respective authors to be a magnum opus of sorts. Both of them could not be further from the human drama of classic Marvel characters. The New Gods have little to nothing human or relatable about them, as is intended, and Mr A is an objectivist to such a degree that it boarders sociopathy. These are a far cry from the relatable, Steven Strange, Tony Stark, Bruce Banner and of course Peter Parker. Now I’m not saying that Mr. A or New Gods are bad by any means. But they are functionally so different from anything Lee collaborated on that it is obvious that he had a large hand in the process. In short it’s great that people want Ditko’s and Kirby to get more credit, however it’s not right to try to do this by discounting Stan Lee‘s contributions.
@@Cosmic_Chinchilla it's not as if any of this is secret, you can look up the lawsuits yourself, there are plenty of stories written by reputable journalists and even documentaries based on what happened, and it isn't as even as if it's the first time it happened. This is a story of capitalism that keeps popping up. Happened to the creators of Superman and to Bill Finger, the actual creator of Batman, who after almost a century only recently started receiving the credit he deserves for his billion dollar creation.
Yes, and people shitting on Stan Lee, or acting like Kirby and Ditko were perfect angels, do the exact same thing, acting like they were there, and knew these people.
Without Stan Lee's concepts and character ideas there would have been no Marvel Age of Comics. Without Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko those concepts and character ideas would have gone nowhere. They needed each other to succeed. None of Jack's work without Stan measured up to what they did together. Jack's dialogue wasn't very good, and his characters were just OK. Steve didn't create anything truly great without Stan, either. And, by the way, Moore is totally wrong about one thing - Stan was around 19 in 1941 when he started working in comics, and he did write some Captain America stuff in the 40's. He didn't create the character, but he was involved in writing the dialogue for his stories fairly early on. A lot of people are still bent out of shape over Stan's lack of acknowledgement in the 70's and 80's of Jack and Steve's co-creating contributions. Stan got over his grudge and freely credited them as co-creators of those characters starting about 26 or 27 years ago. Some of Jack and Steve's fans and amirers still hold their grudge against Stan to this day, however.
Exactly, it's not much of a surprise that a comic book creator would take credit for things he didn't do for fame and fortune. A lot of famous people have done the same thing for attention and positive praise, take credit for the work of others. It's a good tactic to pull yourself on top. While it's not the worst thing you could do, doesn't make you a terrible person. Stan Lee was a good narrator of all of the classics, a good introducer and probably pitched great ideas. Kept creators of the original characters on the straight and narrow perhaps. He probably knows how every character is supposed to be or intended to be, more than any modern comic book writer. Which is what you can say.
VistaRecordsBoard This. New Gods is probably the comic I would recommend reading to understand what Stan Lee brought to the table because it shows what Kirby could do without him, and it's extremely different. It's not just that his writing isn't as good, it's also the fact that it focuses solely on Gods, which is the least Marvel thing a writer can do. I can easily imagine Kirby coming up with Silver Surfer, Galactus or the Inhumans but the concept of superheroes being regular people with regular people problems didn't seem like a concept that appealed to him.
*Steve didn't create anything truly great without Stan, either.* @VistaRecordsBoard, pardon me? So Steve Ditko didn't create; the Creeper, The Question, Captain Atom and Hawk & Dove by himself? These things existed today so you're dead wrong, completely so actually. *Stan got over his grudge and freely credited them as co-creators of those characters* You didn't even watch this damn video properly did you? (rolls eyes) he clearly didn't! Saying in "my opinion" or i think, isn't a proper acknowledgment of anykind. You need to actually say *Yes* this person without a shadow of a doubt was the co-creator, something Stan didn't say or acknowledge outright on here. Bent out of shape my ass, stop making friggin lamebrained excuses, Jonathan Ross, Alan Moore, and so many other people in the comics industry itself. Also know this obvious factoid about Stan Lee not being entirely truthful with his answers or questioning o.k. its not grudges but just pure honesty which you seemingly can't handle on here. an wish to denigrate other fans with onesided bullshit claiming Stan Lee had angel wings practically. I've always liked Stan Lee for representing Marvel, but dislike how comic artists suffered in the industry before things drastically changed for the better mind you!
I also happen to have an original page from the Lee/Kirby era of Thor, and just as Alan Moore described, you have all the suggested dialogue penciled in on the sides of each panel, and you can compare it to the finished ink lettered version inside the panels. There are minor changes, but essentially the same.
Yes that’s all fine and good but the problem is that lee TOOK CREDIT for the creation of characters and for the overall stories, labeling himself a creator or co creator rather than an editor, and this had the affect of limiting both the credit and compensation of actual creators to a severe extent. As Moore said here, by the end of his run with marvel, Steve ditco, the undisputed creator of Spider-Man and the lead writer and illustrator for most of the earl and seminal spidey comics was living in poverty. Imagine that; you created SPIDER-MAN, one of the most beloved, important and successful super heroes of all time, and you’re living hand to mouth while your editor and “co writer” (to use the term lightly) is a millionaire. It’s absolutely dreadful and sad how it played out. I love Stan lee to death and I do think he deserves a lot of credit for redefining comics themselves, but he also did some really shady shit behind the scenes. He was a businessman first an artist second, and businessmen do not stifle their profit generation out of concern for artistic credibility and ethics.
Julie Schwartz cast a long shadow. However, he was an All American/DC company man, who worked for the major company in comics (or at least, non-humor comics). Lee was the Editor-in-Chief of a trend-hopping, joke of a company that fought its way to the top of the industry on his watch. Lee popularized the company. He was a master salesman for his brand. He also hired Jack Kirby when his legal tiff with DC Editor Jack Schiff (over the Sky Mastes Newspaper strip) was endangering his career. Kirby, already one of the plank owners in that medium, really went on to shine at 1960s Marvel.
That's not true, just ask the people who were there, or failing that, comments, recordings and videos of them talking about how they worked with Stan. It's very different to the things you'll hear from people who weren't there and don't have any direct experience. For example, at the 2009 NYCC Dick Ayers was asked who the most creative person was he'd ever worked with, and he replied: Stan Lee. Stan gave a lot of credit to Jack, its just a shame that towards the end of his life, Jack became increasingly 'away with the fairies' and would claim he created everything - even Superman, and people unfortunately believed him, though in the case of Superman, they would say he 'mispoke' because that was clearly not a true statement. So if that wasn't true, it's reasonable to believe a lot of the other things he said weren't true either.
@@elementonly08 I don't believe he ever claimed he created Cap. Jack on the other hand says he created everything and Stan did nothing, which is clearly false and refuted by the rest of the Bullpen. Plenty of articles and even videos on RU-vid from the original Bullpen to corroborate Stans comments over Jacks.
@@Oc316 No, he wasn't. Doctor Strange was drawn to look similar to Vincent Price, who was enjoying a lot of fame at the time thanks to the Edgar Allan Poe movies he was making with Roger Corman in the early 1960s.
Bottom line is that Stan Lee is a somewhat talented writer who happened to surround himself with UBER-talented artists that could flesh out his synopses into comic length art AND stories. Occasionally the artists would take free reign and create their own stories and characters but never with the appropriate credit. Stan was a gifted salesman - a showman who loved (loves) the spotlight similar to Bob Kane. Except that Bob Kane was a tremendous SOB from all accounts never giving ANY credit to his ghosts or the real creator of Batman, Bill Finger. Stan is more generous in that respect but still the court of public opinion is slanted towards him as the main creator of the MU. The reality I think is a little different.
Stan was never a talented writer. He characterized all the characters in the same way and often the dialogues were written by Kirby or Dikto and you could feel the difference
Hey! Instead of watching alan moore videos you should make another conker director commentary video! I didn't know you were into comics though lol! What are your favorites?
@@alecaquino4306 OH jesus, go drink more steve jobs cool aid. Steve wozniak actually built the apple 2 steve jobs would be nowhere without him just like stan lee would be nowhere without jack kirby/ steve ditko
Alan does make a good point, but let's just consider this: Stan might have actually had very little to do with the characters he ''created,'' but there's no way in hell that he could be on the same level as Bob Kane. Kane was a thieving bastard who fucked Bill Finger, Joe Shuster and Jerry Siegel over completely.
Wait, when did he fuck over Shuster and Siegel? I'm not going to defend him fucking over Finger, because he did. I might be wrong, but I thought that after making a few Superman comics, Shuster and Siegel sold Superman to DC and that was it. DC fucked them over by giving them the equivalent of peanuts, but as far as I know, Kane wasn't invloved.
Siegel and Shuster were minors when they created Superman, Kane was aware of that and he explained to DC that the two couldn't own the rights to the character unless they were over 18/legally adults. If he hadn't brought that up, it's possible that Siegel and Shuster might have retained some of the rights, but Kane fucked them over and DC got all the rights, leaving the two with no royalties whatsoever. I'm not entirely sure whether that's entirely true, but that's what I recall.
I got to talk to Jack Kirby, in 1988, for about half an hour. One of the most imaginative minds I have ever met. I totally agree with Moore, about this subject. I have heard Lee talk about the origins of Marvel. Nothing imaginative at all in what he said. `Nuff said.
bianchi1885 Nope. I listened to him talk, at a meeting of comic book dealers (which I was at the time), in the 90's (when Marvel purchased their own distributor). He certainly loved to hear himself talk, for sure.
@@zoso73 Stan Lee textually said this about Jack Kirby... "He was the most imaginative, inventive guy I've ever met. His imagination was incredibly, the things he thought of"
I am going to break it to you straight. Alan moore does not want to meet you, if you see him the best thing you can do is ignore him. That he will respect more than you fan boying.
Jack, without Stan, was able to create entire Universes at both DC and Marvel. Stan, without Jack, created.....ummmm. Errr....I'll get back to you on that.
@The Gray Ghost you didn't understand what he said. Forget about DC now, what Stepper meant was that Kirby alone could create a lot of stuff while Stan alone couldn't
Stan Lee only created Spider-Man and numerous other characters without Jack and write some his and marvel's very best without Jack. And Kirby's DC stuff, yes his New Gods was good, but how many characters actually aren't just weird but interesting generic cosmic characters besides Darkside? Don't get me wrong, Stan Lee needed to work with talented artists, but the fact he produced so much great and diverse work with so many different artists shows what a genius he is.
It shouldn't be that hard to probe or disprove, until then it's just grumbling by a discontented lot that all wound up in this comment section. Thanks Alan Moore you old ass clown lol
I am a massive Batman fan and every time I look at the comics I have and it says "Batman created by Bob Kane" it makes me seethe with rage. I would re-buy all the trades I have if Bill Finger's name was added.
Honestly, I think Lee had more sins of omission then commission. Most every interview that I've seen him talk about the artists, he'll talk about how they'd talk together about a few ideas and then the artists would go and make the story and then he'd write the script based off of what they brought back. He just also will just smile and keep quiet when interviewers will say all these ideas came from him. He didn't make sure the artists got credit unless asked direct questions about them. With his refusal to call Ditko a creator of Spider-Man, he outright says Ditko made it good but has this weird idea that the person who gets the initial idea (a bug themed super-hero that climbs on walls) should be the sole creator. So yes, his view of things is wrong, but he's not pretending he was the mastermind behind it or anything, just that he was the catalyst (which he kind of was, but in the sence he's the guy supplying the clay to the sculpter). I don't think the artists always put things right either. For instance, Kirby wanted credit for Spider-Man, when it was Ditko's design that Lee chose. In creation of Spider-Man Ditko>Lee>Kirby imo. Things are a little more complicated than a malicious dude ripping people off. Sometimes, people just are misleading or view things weird, and that creates controversy.
Exactly !! Everybody is a Hero in their own sight . It was always a teamwork , time to time someone put more efforts someone less , And they all sense , I did most of the work I should take credits. At the last it was all Team work.
@@Dylan-yh3yk I mean, Stan outlived Steve by only a couple of months but I do think Ditko’s choice of wanting to live a more reclusive life while Lee was a showman had something to do with why Ditko wasn’t as big as a name.
He wasn't even the person who came up with the character originally. Original idea for the concept as a whole was Joe Simon. And then it went through Kirby, then Stan brought it to Ditko who REALLY made the character who they were(Personality and the major plot points of the characters life/story). Lee was a IP thief He'd call anything he'd ever touched a little his creation. While in reality he had a history of suppressing the more artistic creativity of the illustrators/writers. Look at Bernard Krigstein who is the man who transformed comics from what they were in the 40s and 50s to what they are today. I feel like most illustrators/writers in the industry never have much good to say about Stan Lee, only fans and journalists ever do.
Alan Moore is telling the Truth. Stan Lee definitely didn’t create those characters. Jack and Steve’s Families should not have to worry about finances as long as Marvel is a multi billion dollar brand.
Moore was quoting from Stans reprint books where the Ross interview was recent..Origins and Sons of origins were another try at sales of old books in condensed form.
@@nont18411 Stan Lee helped create so many different characters and with the 1960's co-creators were very creative. Alan Moore on the other hand is a good writer but I sense some envy/jealousy from him as he hasn't created any character (other than V) without borrowing other people's ideas.
@@samr8603 I'd like to think Stan was a very creative guy, but I feel like he was more in touch the zeitgeist at any given time and capitalized on it. And it's bound to happen in any organized creative industry, credit is never going to be adequately given to the people who given their blood sweat and tears into projects just for a paycheck. I know Stan shouldm't have all the credit, but much like how Kevin Smith in a panel said that Kevin Feige should considered a great filmmaker as a producer because of his vision for the MCU, Stan should still be celebrated for his ability to make comics appealing for the masses. Is he a great writer? Maybe not, but he was a damn good salesman... without whom the modern comic book industry wouldn't be what it is now.
No, all three of them together did it. Kirby did the crazy stuff, ditto did the more realistic parts and Stan did the humor and heart so all three of them deserved credit but I still agree that Stan shouldn’t have gotten all the credit. All three of them should have gotten the credit.
Wow I literally thought for years that Stan Lee created so many of these characters! Then I learn more about Jack Kirby, and it sounds like Stan Lee really didn’t create much, and was just a very shrewd and successful businessman (I could use more colorful expressions, but the man is dead after all.)
His artists no doubt did pretty much all the heavy lifting, but Stan's concepts and writing at the time were revolutionary shit. Plus, just his presence and ability to excite readers, and all the stuff he did at the bullpen to define Marvel. He absolutely deserves _a lot_ credit. However, given the fact that he was never quick to share credit where it was due himself, I guess it's only karma that some people turn around and give him _none._ Can't say he doesn't deserve it. But also couldn't say he wasn't instrumental to Marvel, and pretty much all their characters in the 60's and whatnot.
Tbf to Stan, the media latched on to Stan’s eccentric personality and started to heavily imply that Stan was the sole mastermind behind these characters and Marvel was all too happy to have a salesman increase profits. Stan could’ve done more to emphasize his role as co-creator but I think he was a cog in a machine at the end of the day and got caught up in a world of corporate greed and lazy news coverage.
Plus there's the fact that Moore is fully willing to give his co-creators full credit and even his share of the profits on such things as the merchandizing from Watchmen, V for Vendetta, John Constantine, Swamp Thing, This includes movie profits, video games, use of these characters in other media, comics (Before Watchmen) etc. Stan the Man has only had one concern in his life and that's for Stan the Man.
After reading many of these comments, I see people defending Stan Lee using lines like ''How dare you personally insult an old man?" or, even more pathetic - "Ya'll just hate him because he is Jewish and you are being antisemitic. Are you kidding me? Stealing the brainchild and works of another person and taking credit for it is despicable, especially when it takes money and credentials away from them. It is an absolute shit move that only pieces of shit would do. It is inexcusable behavior and should be known by all people.
Stan lee always respect stege ditko, only a moron would not know stan lee had the idea and the steve ditko made the iconic costume, do some basic research.
I didn't even know that Stan Lee was a jew. And how are you supposed to? His name is Stan Lee not Stan Rosenbaum and I've never seen him wearing one of those funny hats jews sometimes wear.
Wally Wood said the same thing about Stan. He said, that he wrote an issue of Daredevil after drawing it. Stan didn't want to use it and then all Stan did was change a few words and was mostly still Wally Wood's script.
And you can repeat slogans like "Stan was never a writer" and "Stan was nothing but a salesman" forever. It doesn't make it so. Stan absolutely did NOT create all those characters - but he had a hand in almost all of them. Some times a small hand, other times a larger, but he was there, he was involved. He shaped those titles, adding solid dialog, guiding story arc's. Jack and Steve deserved FAR more credit/money. I never argue this. I only argue that it is wrong to say that Stan did NOTHING.
@@garyl5128 I clicked the link and John Romita did not say anything about Jack Kirby, he only talk about the generic artists like....John Romita himself. Jack Kirby was not a generic artist like John Romita, he was a genius and the proof is Stan Lee himself. Stan Lee said this... “Well, what we usually do is, with MOST of the artists, I usually get a rough plot. … Now this varies with the different artists. Some artists, of course, need a more detailed plot than others. Some artists, such as Jack Kirby, need no plot at all. I mean I’ll just say to Jack, ‘Let’s make the next villain be Dr. Doom’… or I may not even say that. He may tell me. And then he goes home and does it. He’s good at plots. I’m sure he’s a thousand times better than I. He just about makes up the plots for these stories. All I do is a little editing… "
@@followthewhiterabbit2549 Seems you were wearing blinkers and making assumptions. He said Stan gave them the plot and let the artist run with it - that included Jack too, especially in the early days before things really took off, and Stan would often get them to make changes to the finished work - including Jacks. Romita would often be asked to make these changes as he was in the office and Jack worked from home. He didn't like doing it, but felt better when he could Xerox the original before making the changes Stan wanted. Romita said he often shared a cab with Stan and Jack and heard them plotting the next issue of the FF - so definitely not just Jack doing 'everything'. Romita said Stan changed comic boos, not Jack. You clearly don't want to believe the truth, and think Jack did everything. Jack even said he created Superman in one interview in his later years - he was clearly away with the fairies by then but do you believe that too? Jack failed to make an impact at DC when he left Marvel and all his titles were scrapped in less tan 18 months - he was blackballed by DC. Stan still let him come back though and despite Roy Thomas saying don't let him write, he did. Even Neal Adams thinks Jacks writing was bad and that he probably needed someone like Stan when he went to DC and that's why he failed there. So much for being the creative one. Stan was a good guy, Jack wasn't. Read Dick Ayers pictorial biography and see where Jack stiffed him for work. With Jack it was always about 'putting food on the table' and even told Joe Simon that when questioned about him creating Spider-Man. Jack lied a lot it seems. Stan could have done more to stop being credited for things that he shouldn't have been at times, but he was always promoting Jack as a creative genius and even gave him the title King. He's often mentioned how Jack created the Silver Surfer and how Dr Strange was Ditkos idea, so if he was trying to steal other peoples ideas, why not those as well?
ONLY Alan Moore could be such an amazing writer and have such respect that he could essentially call Stan Lee an idiot and a charlatan and people believe him. Anyone else would be called jealous where as Alan Moore is just speaking the truth
@@cs995 Possibly homosexual must remember to investigate further lol No but. Now that I look back on that statement I feel bad since Stan Lee has died. I STILL mean what I said. But now in hindsight it feels like it was in bad taste
except it isn't all true. Stan started writing cap at issue 3 so it isn't like he started writing the character 20 years after he was "Created" (I put it in quotes because jack ripped off the character The Shield).
@@TotalTech2. I said it's not ALL true. I'm not pretending he was a saint. But it's easy to demonize the guy who's the boss. Moore is making it sound like stan was taking too much credit but if you watch Men Without Fear- Lee flat out says that he'd give them the vaguest notion of a story and let the artist go to town. Romita doesn't feel the same way about it as Kirby or Ditko did. I also generally like Moore but he's also sort of full of shit and this isn't the first time. I'm a big lefty too so I generally agree with his point of view but for example he makes a big deal about people making movies from his characters when half his career was remaking other people's work. Ditko in particular would have lost it if Watchmen had remained the Chariton characters.
For everyone who's worked with anyone they know you have a front guy (marketers, salesmen) and the back guys (engineers, executors). Stan steered a lot of teams in directions that kept Marvel afloat for many years. I'd say he did a great job marketing and steering Marvel but a bad job compensating his collaborators.
A Voice of Reason. You have no idea how refreshing that is. After reading your posted lead, I found a 48 year old statement from Bob Kane denying Bill Finger's claims to having a more central role in Batman's creation followed by a 25 year old statement of regret from Kane regarding unrecognized credit to Finger's contributions. Funny what a little post-mortem guilt can do, isn't it? Thanks for the tip and for restoring my faith in human nature.
Yeah, I first really got back into comics hardcore with Frank Miller's 'The Dark Knight Returns' & Alan Moore's Watchmen, I hadn't really read them much before then since I was a kid when I'd pick up anything from mid 1970's Superman & Batman comics with stuff ranging from Carl Bark's Duck stories to Archie comics. I think one of the earliest comics I remember reading was Swamp Thing #1 in a barber shop, a mindblowing read.
I agree with you, John. It's one thing to demote Stan Lee from Asgardian demigod to human being. It's another to denounce him as some thieving bit player, if not an outright hack, in Marvel's history. Stan-bashing has become the new national pastime. Kirby and Ditko are brilliant. But they were at their most brilliant when paired with Stan Lee. The collaborative nature of comics makes it hard to know who contributed what to a character. Can't we celebrate the synthesis of remarkable talents?
I picked up on Rorschach's story right away in the movie Watchmen: As a teenager, after buying my 1st comic book at a 7-11 store near my jr. high school, I looked around the valley for a comic book store. with the help of my older sister, I'd stop by Golden Apple Comics. I heard of Watchmen comics back then but did not read it. only heard bits of the story. only a person with much passion trying to find a child from a child murderer would have to be the father of the victim. such awesome movie. 👍
i read the origins of marvel comics books and it clearly states joe simon and jack kirby created captain america so i don't know what this guy is talking about
That so sucks about Ditko. Even his later was amazing. I loved "Shade The Changing Man" when he created that for DC. He had a way with story and art, whether you liked his style or not. Even more screwed is the fact that Ditko gets nothing from all those Spider-Man movies.
If you've ever read Alex Robinson's Box Office Poison, its main storyline is the Ditko/Kirby story w/ Irving Flavour as Ditko/Kirby, Zoom Comics is Marvel, and Zoom's sangfroid guru-esque leader as Stan Lee.
Stan Lee was a cog in the machine as far as Marvel was concerned and didn't have the clout to force Marvel to provide benefits for freelance artists who had no vested interest in Marvel other than to collect a paycheck for turned-in work! Amazing how people believed that Stan was all-powerful at Marvel while being ignorant that if he didn't hustle to provide plots for artists to work from instead of whole scripts, the Marvel Process wouldn't have happened and these guys wouldn't have been paid!
2:15: "I've never said, oh, well, I remember when me and Dave Cochrum created the [new] X-Men." Since he hadn't, that's a good thing. But if he had, wouldn't that have been awesome!?
I read most of the mid-60's Marvel titles (when they exploded!!) for 5 years, to me there was a HUGE difference in the way the plots and dialog ran in the Jack Kirby titles. Sgt. Fury, Avengers, X-Men never had the same ZING in their stories after Kirby got them started and then handed them off to another artist, leaving Lee to carry on their continuity with a new artist. Plus, Stan always wrote in his monthly soapboxes that he never really had to write for Kirby, Kirby told Stan what the plots were going to be. I think Stan Lee was to Marvel Comics what Mick Jagger was to the Rolling Stones...
I think this suggests that there needs to be a new model for how comics are done - it is apparent that many of the 'new blood' comic companies of the 90's still operated in many of the same underhanded ways that DC & Marvel had employed in decades past. Creators, writers and artists deserve proper credit and compensation for their works, including creative control over how those works might be adapted to tv & motion pictures.
remember to ask yourself: why were kirbys books with stan so great, and kirby's solo books heartless and meaningless? for all of stans character flaws, he helped give the marvel hero's actual characters with actual flaws, ssomething jack could not do. jack was a visual genius par excellence, but he needed a wingman to create stories that people cared about. nobody is everything.
Exactly! I know Jack Kirby is wronged, but so is Stan Lee. But Stan Lee is wronged in a different way than Jack Kirby. Stan Lee is attacked by many haters and frustrated Kirby fans, and they often create distortions about Stan. Both Lee and Kirby were important, they complement each other. There are many suspicious and biased sources on the Internet that treat Stan like a villain, and that is why it is hard to believe. We weren't there personally, with Stan and Jack, during the creation of the Marvel comic book stories and characters, so we can't know what happened, but I believe Stan Lee was essential as well as Kirby and Ditko, and that he co-created the Marvel characters along with them. I read a Stan Lee (and Moebius) comic called Parable, and I consider it to be one of the best comic books I've ever read. The classic Silver Surfer run, made by Lee and Buscema, is, for me, a masterpiece. If Stan Lee was really a scam, he wouldn't have made such good stories with people other than Ditko and Kirby.
The Simon & Kirby credit was removed from the Golden Age Captain America reprints under Stan's watch. He had no problem taking credit for Cap's creation during Marvel's heyday not to mention other characters like Carl Burgos Human Torch & Bill Everett's Sub Mariner at the same time.
@Ultra Chinchilla ‘Men of Tomorrow: Geeks Gangsters and the Birth of the Modern Comic’ by Gerard Jones, ‘Kirby & Lee: Stuff' Said!’ by John Morrow Which also reprints a pamphlet from 1947 'Secrets behind the Comics' written by Stan in which he credited Timely publisher Martin Goodman for Captain America's creation, so it's not like these sort of claims were something Stan was only doing during the sixties and onwards.
I'm curious if maybe the slip up about creating Captain America might have actually been him talking about when he and Jack Kirby brought Captain America back to the present in early Avengers through retcon
I'd give them both 50% of credit. Stan came up with the idea for spiderman. But Steve brought them to life in his drawings. For example, Stan didn't come up with the idea for his costume, that was Steve's idea. That's just how I see it.
AtenAkaAton1 Joe Simon and Jack Kirby came up with several ideas. The Spider guy they thought up of was nowhere similar to the Spider-Man we know. That was a creation of Stan Lee and Steve Ditko.
MrColuber Look more into it, Stan Lee talked directly with Jack Kirby while coming up with the idea of Spiderman and the Spiderman Stan originally came up with was a lot like Kirby's. Kirby advised him and even drew a brief story for Spiderman, before it was passed over to Ditko. Jack Kirby was directly involved in Stan Lee's Spiderman before Ditko came on board, even Ditko admits this, though he states he doesn't know how much of it Kirby created.
AtenAkaAton1 Well, unfortunately, at the moment, the best I could do was rip off wikipedia (and I quote): "Simon, in his 1990 autobiography, disputed Kirby's account, asserting that Black Magic was not a factor, and that he (Simon) devised the name "Spider-Man" (later changed to "The Silver Spider"), while Kirby outlined the character's story and powers. Simon later elaborated that his and Kirby's character conception became the basis for Simon's Archie Comics superhero the Fly. Artist Steve Ditko stated that Lee liked the name Hawkman from DC Comics, and that "Spider-Man" was an outgrowth of that interest. Simon concurred that Kirby had shown the original Spider-Man version to Lee, who liked the idea and assigned Kirby to draw sample pages of the new character but disliked the results-in Simon's description, "Captain America with cobwebs".[note 5] Writer Mark Evanier notes that Lee's reasoning that Kirby's character was too heroic seems unlikely-Kirby still drew the covers for Amazing Fantasy #15 and the first issue of The Amazing Spider-Man. Evanier also disputes Kirby's given reason that he was "too busy" to also draw Spider-Man in addition to his other duties since Kirby was, said Evanier, "always busy". Neither Lee's nor Kirby's explanation explains why key story elements like the magic ring were dropped; Evanier states that the most plausible explanation for the sudden change was that Goodman, or one of his assistants, decided that Spider-Man as drawn and envisioned by Kirby was too similar to the Fly. Author and Ditko scholar Blake Bell writes that it was Ditko who noted the similarities to the Fly. Ditko recalled that, "Stan called Jack about the Fly", adding that "[d]ays later, Stan told me I would be penciling the story panel breakdowns from Stan's synopsis". It was at this point that the nature of the strip changed. "Out went the magic ring, adult Spider-Man and whatever legend ideas that Spider-Man story would have contained". Lee gave Ditko the premise of a teenager bitten by a spider and developing powers, a premise Ditko would expand upon to the point he became what Bell describes as "the first work for hire artist of his generation to create and control the narrative arc of his series". On the issue of the initial creation, Ditko states, "I still don't know whose idea was Spider-Man". Kirby noted in a 1971 interview that it was Ditko who "got Spider-Man to roll, and the thing caught on because of what he did". Lee, while claiming credit for the initial idea, has acknowledged Ditko's role, stating, "If Steve wants to be called co-creator, I think he deserves [it]". Writer Al Nickerson believes "that Stan Lee and Steve Ditko created the Spider-Man that we are familiar with today [but that] ultimately, Spider-Man came into existence, and prospered, through the efforts of not just one or two, but many, comic book creators"." Anyhoo, it still seems that the initial idea to have a troubled teen gain superpowers - and problems because of it - was indeed the creation of Stan Lee and Steve Ditko, more so than Kirby or Simon, considering what the Fly was. The catchphrase regarding responsibility seems to be entirely Stan Lee's doing. I think I read somewhere that Ditko would never have wanted that written down.
It all depends on what input that visual artist put of his own in the final product, in the case of Ditko an hell of a lot for sure!! Costume, web-shooter, character traits and so on and on.. As I said earlier if Lee was behind Ditko telling him what to draw he might have had a point as he would just be a "handyman" for his complete vision, but that's not the case at all, far from it by his own admission.
Nah bruh, kirby and ditko can made their own comic books and write good stories while stan lee might be broken til now. But RIP to those comic book legends excluding stan lee he was meh
No, he wouldn't. When you work for a company and you sign a contract they literally own your ideas. Stan Lee claiming he made spider-man is no different then Steve Jobs claiming he invented the iPhone when in reality it was a team of engineers.
I'm no Stan Lee fan (and he's guilty of exactly what Moore says) but it kinda bugs me to see Moore bashing him when Moore himself has been an INCREDIBLE asshole to quite a few people in the industry who considered him a friend. I know TWO individuals personally who were "cut off" by Moore (i.e. never spoken to again) because of some unbelievably stupid, petty bullshit, things that were (at worst) misunderstandings on Moore's part. Great writer. Terrible human being.
There is a "concept" creator, and "co-creator (s)" Without the concept, which is really the most important part, what do you have? Without a co-creator, who can truly bring out the real quality of the character, what do you have?
I think you proved my point. Captain Atom lasted 11 issues, OMAC 8 issues, Kamandi 59 issues. The Question didn't have his own title until the late eighties and as someone who worked in comics retail at the time, I can tell you it sold a handful of copies each issue, while the top Marvel titles would sell over one hundred.
That's the problem in learning the details of any archetypal hero. Stan Lee bent the truth to make the character, and story better at the expense of those around him, and profit to himself
Yeah, Alan Moore just outright lied about that interview. Stan Lee credited Ditko with Spider-Man's design but at no point did he ever say Ditko "created" Spider-Man. He said he was willing to acknowledge Ditko's contributions and say that Ditko was a co-creator but Lee was adamant in insisting the core idea was his. And even Ditko has never pushed for saying he created Spider-Man, he was arguing for co-creation.
I can't speak about the FF situation but, please correct me if I am worng, but didn't Stan dialogue the Spidey characters? So wouldn't Peter's personality (in regards to hiw wit) have been all Stan and not Steve (who as I understand it wasn't one for flippant humour)? Plus what about all the stuff that went on in the book after Ditko left and Romita came on? I mean Ditko didn't create Mary Jane or the basis for Harry Osborn really
I'm an animator, I animate things for clients all the time, with mean they bring me what they want and I do it, sometimes I give ideas, I even rewrote a script, but still, I don't consider myself the co creator of those projects. Of course, Steve had a much big role, he help it to create a story of a lot of Marvel characters, so he is definitely a co creator of characters like Spider Man. But, Spider Man would still exist without Steve Ditko,Stan Lee had started work with that before with Jack Kirby, of couse with would be maybe a little different, but still, that means essentially, Stan Lee created a few of those characters. Update: Just search to see if Stan Lee actually said that he created Capitain America, and he never actually said that, Alan Moore is straid up lying or remembering wrong about that.
Absolutely right Luiz ✅ Stan has done more for Spider-Man media on every platform whether it's comic, video games, Animated series or Movies ,He made sure Spidey was don't justice on each. No wonder every media credits him.
No matter what was written on the back of the pages or in the margins, Stan Lee's style of writing is evident across all of the early Marvel Age stories. Whether the artist was Kirby, Ditko, or Romita. And his style of writing and dialogue is a big part of the success of those books. Stan is a company man, so he gets a lot of hate from the starving artists who want to own their work. Neither side is necessarily wrong, but Stan gets way too much hate and no credit is absurd. None of those guys were as good separate, as they were when they were together doing their own parts to make a magical whole
I agree with some of what your saying, especially the bit about them not being as good separated from Stan....but Jack "King" Kirby was the exception..look at his bibliography and accolades after Stan
+Joshua Mcchristian I enjoyed the Fourth World stuff, though I think it's overrated to a degree, but it doesn't compare to the Thor run up until Galactus showed up. Stan's style of writing helps make those books. Obviously Jack Kirby was the most creative of the three, and is the greatest producer in the history of the medium, but he's always come off as this victimized asshole in every interview I've read from him The idea that Stan Lee had nothing to do with anything is ludicrous. King Kirby would have you believe that Lee was just some guy in the office. Lee's style of dialogue is all over those silver age books, look at the ASM books immediately after Ditko quit. Same dialogue, over all the titles. Stan Lee gets portrayed as this guy that takes all the credit but he gives way more than Kirby, who I honestly don't think even read any of the finished strips up until his death. Maybe he genuinely thought that Lee just copied his dialogue, but it's very clear he didn't.
+Marcus Joyner I've never been under the belief that Stan lee had nothing to do with the success of those books, I was just pointing out that Kirby was successful after Lee. I think Alan Moore and Stan lee are about as pretentious as they come...maybe if Kirby was around today, he'd be the same way
Kahn & Levitz even instituted a deal in which creators of new properties would share in the revenues. It didn't apply to earlier inventions like Kirby's Fourth World. BUT Kahn & Levitz figured out that if they hired Jack to do new development art on those properties, that they could grandfather him in. Finally Kirby started getting something he hadn't gotten from Marvel or DC during the Weisinger/Infantino era, Royalty checks.
Not really Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko are the creators of Spiderman. Stan Lee went to Jack Kirby and stated he wanted a new character called Spiderman. Jack Kirby came up with a little narrative about him living with his aunt and uncle and he lived down the road from a mad scientist. Spiderman looked a lot like Captain America without the wings on his head and he had a web gun. Ditko then was given this to work from to make it more special, something different for a character called Spiderman. Ditko came up with the iconic costume, web shooters, and a few other things. Ditko created a lot of the mythology of the character through the Marvel Method. Stan Lee came up the name, Kirby came up with the aunt and uncle starting point, and Ditko basically created what would be 90 percent of Spiderman, conservatively.
joe simon and jack came up whit the idea of the silver spider. but jack alone came up whit the walking on walls and webbing, and general character for spiderman and first illustration so really jack came up whit the idea of him steve then brought him to life. point is jack has as much if not more of a claim on spiderman than certainly lee if not more so than steve. imo lee shouldn't even be credited giving something a name and an outline for the first story doesn't hold up in novels so not sure why they think the same should be held up in comics.
its really funny how much of an asshole stan can be, on issue 20 of the amazing spiderman , stan writes that ppl complained that ditko's name is always after his, so he puts ditko before him but stan's name is noticeably bigger and in bright red contrasting the small and black colored ditko name, its all fun and games so long as stan is laughing
Indeed, Thanos. Did you know that without Jack Kirby you would not even exist? Let me explain...Jack Kirby created Darkseid, Jim Starlin created Thanos based on Darkseid. Without Darkseid there would be no inspiration forJim Starlin to create yoU. LONG LIVE THE KING 😉👍
@@toyhunter2903 Well technically you're right, but Starlin said he actually didn't base Thanos on Darkseid, but instead another New Gods character named Metron.
Lee came up with the ideas, Kirby and Ditko visualized the ideas and gave imagery to Lee's plots, but often Lee would tell the artists, "give me 4 pages of a fight between the Thing and The Hulk, or between Spiderman and The Rhino."So the artists were 'writing' parts of the story, these artists should get more credit, but money and copyrights get in the way.
Wrong ! That's a misconception. Stan Lee said this.... Some artists, such as Jack Kirby, need no plot at all. I mean I’ll just say to Jack, ‘Let’s let the next villain be Dr. Doom’… or I may not even say that. He may tell me. And then he goes home and does it. He’s so good at plots. I’m sure he’s a thousand times better than I. He just about makes up the plots for these stories. All I do is a little editing
@@comicbookguy6361 from the castle of frankenstein interview in 68 the last time stan was almost totally honest he still took the yeoman's credit for the creation of the characters
