Alex Honnold & Jonathan Siegrist Discuss the Dunning-Kruger Effect || Climbing Gold Podcast

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There is a point a the apex of Dunning & Kruger's curve colloquially considered the peak of a great and daunting mountain: Mount Stupid. See, this is the point where a person's confidence in their knowledge of a thing peaks, despite their true knowledge of said thing being completely ephemeral. Professional rock climbers are no stranger to mount stupid, Alex Honnold and Jonathan Siegrist explain, they are just as subject to the psychological fallacy as you and I.
The crew breaks down the climbing community through this lense, why Jstar and Honnold both feel like they aren't that good at climbing, and why big fish should escape small ponds.
Best Mt. Stupid story I see in the comments gets a gold star
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Опубликовано:

13 сен 2024

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Комментарии : 17

@drstrangelove85 2 месяца назад

I climb in the same gym as Hannah Meul and when she posted a video of her doing a lead route there i thought: Let's give it a shot! It was a humbling experience.

@IronJohn755 2 месяца назад

In my world (reasonably fit, middle aged weekend warriors) sending a 5.11 outdoors will get you a round of high-fives. I think this roundtable severely overestimates the "average" climber. If you go to a place like Red River Gorge, most people are just having a fun day on 5.9-5.10c. I doubt 10% of climbers will ever send a legit outdoor 5.12.

@OliverBatchelor 2 месяца назад

I consider anyone climbing 5.11 to be a boss; these people are just imaginary people.

@IronJohn755 2 месяца назад

@@OliverBatchelor Tremendous credit to these top-level climbers, but it's a small group of people with an all-consuming commitment to climbing. You do see people at crags who are just "hard men" - naturally athletic, could have played college football, super strong with a fearless mentality. But IME (and according to self-reported data from Mountain Project) an experienced, fit, recreational outdoor climber (which is a very high level of fitness compared to the general public) is flashing 5.10c-d and maybe redpointing 5.11b-c. This is roughly where I'm at. Gym redpoints in the low-mid 5.12s, and outdoor low-mid 11s. There are a probably a few 12s out there I could do, but you have to be strong as hell, light, flexible and have rare mental toughness to climb a 5.13 (excluding soft grades in certain gyms).

@CF565 2 месяца назад

It's like this in all sports, or many skilled endeavors, that the people in the top 5% of performance both a) generally overestimate where the 'average' performer is and b) have a more precise understanding of how the gaps between skill at the highest tiers gets wider as the pool shrinks. You can be top 20 in the world at your skillset, but often the gap between 20 and 1 is a chasm, because the top top super elite are such freakish outliers that they are legitimately without peers. But that also means there's an ocean of average performers who will never even begin to approach the higher grades.

@bottombracket 2 месяца назад

I’ve been climbing for 30 years and my hardest onsight is 5.11d because I don’t give a crap about grades. Working the same route over and over is boring af. I’d rather go do a bunch of cool 510s rather than make someone belay me for hours on My Project. I could care less if some pro climber thinks I suck.

@IronJohn755 2 месяца назад

@@bottombracket I feel the same way. I'll try a route twice if I think I'll send on try #2 but projecting is for the gym and the outdoors are for having fun.

@LuxuryPi 2 месяца назад

I think there is actually another effect at work here. You reach the peak of your specific skills by focusing on your wraknesses, on things you can't do and everything you have achieved you kinda have to accept and stop focusing so much on (nobody tries to send a project multiple Times as soon as they do it the first time). So you get very good at focusing on smaller and smaller details which matter more and more the higher you get on your personal peak. So I'd argue the difference between John siegrist and Alex megos is actually way smaller that what each of them might think. But to them it's the difference between sending the life time project and not sending which makes it a huge difference when it might actually just be a small amount of endurance or strength they are lacking.

@buckhum55 2 месяца назад

To continue from your point: the amount of work that's required to produce a marginal increase in performance at the top level is astronomically high. And so, that may partly explain why, psychologically speaking, the people at the top feel like the differences between #4 and #2 is so vast. One analogy I like is 100m sprints. A reasonably fit person can probably run 100m in 12-13sec. That's only 2 seconds away from Olympic-level. However, for someone like Lamont Jacobs who won gold in Tokyo with a time of 9.8sec, getting from that point to Usain Bolt's record of 9.58 might as well be impossible even if the absolute time difference is just 1/5 of a second.

@TerjeMathisen 2 месяца назад

Way back in 1982 I knew that I was one of the top 5 climbers in Norway, and our top guy (Hans Chr. Doseth) was legitimately one of the better all-style (winter/expedition/Troll Wall but also crag and boulder) climbers in the world. At the time, that still meant that someone like Wolfgang Güllich was head and shoulders above all of us, i.e. probably 2 to 4 letter grades better. Interestingly enough, this was also the time when Gunnar Breivik (a professor at the Norwegian Sports Institute) got his PhD from studying extreme sports: What he found was that unlike white water kayak and parachute jumping, the climbers were consistently far _better_ at evaluating their own performance level relative to their peers. Among the climbers, 5 of us claimed to be in the top 5 and 15 more claimed to be in the top 20, while among the other groups pretty much everyone (95-100%) claimed to be in the top half. (We were told that each peer group consisted of about 40 athletes)

@littlevahn 2 месяца назад

I coach Youth Rock Climbing, new kids every year fall into this haha. They learn quickly though, try not to squash their confidence to much.

@jameskase5639 2 месяца назад

Go to shemini to ski on icy rocks

@fertlhuber 2 месяца назад

I do not understand the importance of that discussion, or what was found out. It was chit-chat.

@Jacob0481 2 месяца назад

Yeah idk either, maybe just to stay humble?

@sergeyyaremenko2281 2 месяца назад

The real fun thing about Dunning-Kruger effect is that in 2016 it’s been proven as non-existent due to an impressively lame mistake in the statistics in an original study. 8 years on, everybody is still onboard.

@Jacob0481 2 месяца назад

The moral of this video, to me, was stay humble because someone is always better than you in some respect.