@JazzClass Symphonic Music The Borg's transporter technology is based on an entirely different technology than the standard "particle beam" federation style. My assumption it is more interdimensional.
***** A little curiosity: the Borg have transwarp technology, cannot they use to bring themselves and Voyager outside Borg space? (Even if it will be Kes who will do such a thing, and she is not a Borg). Guido.
Guidogregotti I imagine the borg are just savvy enough to realize that Janeway might try to use their transwarp taxi service and then race off without giving them the nano-probe technology. Offering help like that solves her problem, but doesn't do them any good, so there is no reason to volunteer that suggestion to her.
@@Guidogregotti Yup, that's the obvious hole in the plot. The Borg know exactly where the Federation is, and could use their transwarp network to get Voyager home in a matter of hours.
@@dirdib69 I think the canon answer is that there are multiple forms of Transwarp technology and they all allow for different velocities. I've kinda looked into it alot lol.
I do love how the Borg were so desperate for the technology that they not only bargain with Janeway, they go out of their way to protect her and save the Voyager from "Species 8472's" assault while sacrificing a few of their own cubes to do it. It's a display of vulnerability we had never seen before from Star Trek's scariest antagonist.
The Borg are not individuals. Every drone, every ship is expendable compared to the survival of the collective. And in this case, that requires Voyager to survive as it contains the data they need to ensure that survival
Indeed. And it was very cool to see the Borg forced to ........ Negotiate. I didn't think that term was in their vocabulary. I guess being able to 'adapt' really is one of their most powerful abilities.
Janeway: This is a sample of the technology we possess Borg: We've seen your video, it's pretty self explanatory, It just looks like a modified nanoprobe attacking 8472's cells, we can work out the rest from here. Prepare for assimilation. Janeway: Crap
While the vid showed the probes attacking the cell - it didint specify how it was achieved or in what manner the probes were modified.- Standard borg probes were unable to attack succesfully the 8472 cells - so the mere knowledge that it was done by the probes wasnt enough. It's like you would show someone a nuclear bomb exploding - while cool it doesnt tell anything how the bomb actually works - the basic principle here is the same. All the vid showed was a promise of a viable way to attack the cells - nothing more of actuall value was present at the time. Borg Knew that - Janeway knew that - That was the only reason why they snatched her - They realised the potential value of what was offered. The Janeway gambit was fairly Solid - Basically we will give you a weapon to fight your enemy - and our price is You just to ... ignore us during our passage - which is basically nothing.
afaik (i dont know why im watching this i havnt seen star trek in like 10 years lol) the Borg cannot create any technology and are lousy/nonexistant scientists as they supress creativity. They can only assimilate new knowledge, not create it. Well they probably can, but are very slow/inefficient at doing so.
I still cant get over how badly 8472 fucked up the Borg. Wolf 359, The Battle of Secor 001 were narrow victories for Starfleet. But 8472 ran over the borg like a hot knife through butter. Damn.
Wolf 359 was a total victory for the Borg cube. 39 Starfleet vessels were either irreparably damaged or outright destroyed, with nearly 11,000 casualties, including Sisko's first wife and Picard's friend Admiral Hanson. A number of Federation citizens and Starfleet officers in escape pods as well as on a civilian transport present were assimilated. The only victory arising from that was the cube's destruction later on by the Enterprise-E...in orbit of Earth. How was Wolf 359 a Starfleet victory?
The largest flaw in Voyager is that it was unwilling to pursue an extended, sequential storyline even for strings of episodes. I mean, come on. An entire Borg war with S8472 in like two episodes?
You're entirely right. It could have lasted half a season. The format of Star Trek episodes and seasons were on the other hand more episodical during the 90's. Even with DS9, though that series is the closest to what you're intending.
The Borg are one of my favorite characters in Sci-Fi but it was cool to see them get their asses kicked by Species 8472. "There's always a bigger fish." -Qui-Gon Jinn
At least the Kazon were something new. When that didn't deliver the ratings the writers fell back to fan service, spoon feeding the viewers the comfortingly familiar
@@IrishCarney I don't think the Kazon were really that new- they seemed a bit like cut-price Klingons to me with only their desperate nature making them appear difference. For me, the new reoccuring races that were most successful in Voyager were the Hirogen which combined a good Predator-esque hunting element with some fantastic makeup and good actors portraying them (Tony Todd, Tiny Ron etc.).
I always found myself imagining Federation ships in the Alpha and Beta quadrants suddenly finding Borg ships not fighting them and telling them about an alliance made by Captain Kathryn Janeway of the Starship Voyager.
Problem is that if they just suddenly beaned her out of there, why didn’t they just beam everyone into the Borg ship and assimilate everyone while they transport a few drones onto voyager to take the information by force? Like is the info on a type of timer or is the shop on self destruct?
Fortunately (or unfortunately) the UK was one or two years behind your transmissions at the time, so we only had to wait a week to see the next one, but, we only got to see it years after you did :)
"They'll push you, they'll threaten you." I love how Janeway went right up the BORG, spoke to them offering an alliance, shared info to entice, attempted to negotiate, was pushed by them, threatened by them, and then STOOD UP higher to them and pushed back with the truth. No one pushes her!.
Scorpion part 1 ending always used to give me chills. A Borg cu e running away from a planet blowing up, Voyager being yanked on a tractor beam like a dog on a leash...
No, the cube was just trying to get out of the way of the exploding planet. A few moments later, they sacrificed themselves to stop species 8472 in an effort to protect the Collective through Voyager's new weapon.
Considering how picky the Borg were about who was worth assimilating it’s kind of a compliment that the Queen herself was so interested in Picard and Janeway.
When you're used to waiting full episodes for incremental plot developments in ST, to have a bunch of alien ships turn up and just blast a Borg world to pieces with literally Zero introduction was genuinely shocking.
You've got to admire Janeway. It takes an Iron Lady of a starfleet captain to negotiate alone with a near-omnipresent threat that wants to assimilate her and her ace-up-her-sleeve.
Борг да у них не было выхода против 8472, хотя оно сами начали войну против 8472, хотели завоевать новые территории, но Расса 8472 оказала сопротивление.
@@llwydanwyl Probably they can, first contact is the best proof for that, in that movie they ARE omnipresent, same goes for picard, the borg are prettymuch omnipresent.
I love the fact that the Borg cube rotated onto the same plane as Voyager. That should be depicted more often in space fiction because...you know...there are (at least) 3 dimensions a vessel can move through.
I would have loved to see a season long arc of Voyager exploring Borg space finding crippled worlds, refugees, and sneaking their way around losing a fair portion of the crew and having the ship inflicted with compounding damage through the series.
BSG in a nutshell. Every single missle hit, every live lost mattered. In every episode it had a # of survivors whiteboard. By the end of the show the old girl was on her last leg.
What I really like about this scene: AFTER the Borg realized Janeway held possible tactical information they could not afford to lose they bring her on board and request her demands. They don’t like her demands and counter it with logic and tactical “reality” attempting to get technology and assimilate more. Janeway does NOT relent or backdown. Silence... The queen and her “staff” calculate possibilities, technical data, their weapons research, battle records, and decide to table assimilation...for now... and humor Janeway or actually listen to her for now. They relent and request her proposal. 02:09
Just my opinion, but representing the Collective this way instead of one or two talking individuals is a lot more effective. It gives the viewer more of a sense of their vastness and inhuman perspective.
To me, one of the funniest bits in all of Voyager is when Seven of Nine mentions that the Kazon were so unremarkable that the Borg refused to assimilate them. "They would detract from our perfection."
To be fair, the Borg/Voyager alliance was important for the survival of life in the entire galaxy AND to the survival of Voyager, while there was nothing to gain from an alliance with the Kazon.
I wonder how the Borg would react to the Cybermen from Doctor Who and visa versa... One wants to become perfect by absorbing all cultures, knowledge, and people into themselves, the other thinks it already is perfect and wants to make everyone else perfect by removing what makes them different from them. Would they fight, team up, or try to convert/assimilate each other? Who would end up dominating?
Late to this party. But the answer is, they both lose and they both win at the same time. I had a similar discussion about the Flood, Zerg, and Tyranids
And interesting bit, it looks as if the other borg cubes are moving into position to try and shield Voyager and the Cube tractoring it. At least partially, from the exploding planet.
I'll be honest, even though TNG post season 2 neglected to use the Borg beyond the stuff with Hugh and Lore, this moment kind of really damaged their reputation. I also think the decision to give them a queen was in direct opposition to the idea of them being a nameless faceless collective. But then again the concept of Locutus was similar.
I dont like the queen either. But janeways realpolitik negotiations with borg is good. If u bring something to the table, they will talk. Instead of being npc. I agree that the collective hive AI cube is precisely what makes them so disturbing. Hes just a scout. He might try to take control of your ship. IiiiiiiiiiiiiI wouldn't let him 😂 Luccutis wasn't like the Queen. The borg deliberately assimilated captain picard precisely because of his intimate knowledge of federation federation tactics and strategies
Not really Locutus was a disposable drone. Plus given that the Borg witnessed the Federation flagship being swiped away it made the Federation a priority for the Borg. It was pretty clear Locutus was a disposable. But the subsequent episodes with Picard acting as Locutus did undermine the Borg to some decree
Cliffhanger! I remember thinking about this all summer then we get Seven of Nine Tertiary Adjunct of Unimatrix-01 on the Part 2 after. Yowza! I miss good Star Trek.
I love how the borg just beamed Janeway out of there while shes trying to convince them to negotiate...They arrived at their conclusion way before she finished her sentence. Just goes to show how quickly the Borg can reason.
Ever wonder what Starfleet thought when they saw the Voyager logs? Admiral: hmmm it says here you gave the borg bio-weapons that melt people Janeway: Well that was to defeat one of their enemies and get across their space Admiral: And you executed one of your crew a Mr. Tuvix Janeway: Well i needed more crew members anyway Admiral: And there's all those incidents with the time line Janeway: That was sorted out by some future guy, i promise there'll be no more time travel *cough suckers*cough
"Then there's this Equinox incident, you tortured their crew?!?" "Ransem was getting away." "Uh... huh. And your EMH... I stress again, *emergency* medical program, ran continuously for long enough to become sapient? And you DIDN'T consider the ramifications of creating a new life form this way?" "My doctor was dead, the hell else was I to do? Hire an alien?" "You did that! TWICE! One of them was your cook! and... navigator?! YOU GAVE AN ALIEN MERCENARY ACCESS TO FEDERATION STAR CHARTS?!?" "Who? OH, right, that little loser we dumped in an asteroid a few weeks ago." "I'm going to pretend I didn't hear that. And speaking of passengers, a Borg drone? Y-you know they're all connected in a hive mind and tried to take over the Federation twice now, right?" "The ratings were dropping, we needed a hot bod to rep the brand!" "Well, at least you didn't poison a Maquis planet. Welcome home, *Admiral* Janeway."
@Jerry Mathurin Everything Sisko did was for the good of the Alpha Quadrant. Oceania has always been at war with East Asia. Epstein totally killed himself.
Species 116 has a vested interest in this war between the Borg and Species 8472. Stand down Captain Janeway or Arturis will set a trap for you! - Hope and Fear -
The borg dont give ... they take... you dont give the federation transwarp technology..they would replicate it and start attacking your homeworlds... thats always the borg advantage...they attack the federation with impunity knowing their powerbase and supply lines are safe in the delta quadrant where the federation cant go.
Voyager has some of the coolest ideas in Trek, like Species 8472 concept or when they get trapped in that black space and need to either work together or destroy other ships to steal from, to survive
My only quibble with this amazing scene is that the Borg states it would take too much time to transport them past their territory. And yet all they had to do was pulled Voyager inside their docking area - since we know the sphere ship cubes have are around the same size as Voyager - then transwarp out their territory. After that, they let Voyager go and then Janeway drops a probe with the information and they go on their way.
I can't stand Janeway's stupidity, which starts at beginning of season 4 and continues until the end of the series. She wasted a great opportunity to make an alliance with a powerful alien species which kicked the Borg's collective asses. She arrived to the conclusion the fluidic space alien had to be stopped just because one of them wounded Harry Kim, making her angry to the point she tells Chakotay that maybe the fluidic space aliens deserve to be anhialated, and because Kess has a brief contact with the aliens when she heres "the weak shall perish". All it took was these two things, both of them a misunderstanding which could have been resolved had Janeway tried to contact the aliens and hear their side of the story. But no she decides to pass judgement in an entire species based on vague information. And let's not forget that when she helped the borg she doomed several other worlds that would be assimilated in the years that followed. Bravo Janeway you protected the future of your crew by destroying the future of billions, perhaps even trillions of individuals.
Jean Jack Beaupainx u said they could of made an alliance with species whatever they are and kill bork who killed trillions when they destroyed the borg ya good so far but then u realize they say the weak shall perish and they want all life purged tell me would u want something even stronger than the borg to come in and threaten to purge your universe? LOL I wouldn’t also how does this decision make her stupid on her part it’s the best she could have made.
@@Leavemealone670 You would be right if was that simple and we lived in a black and white world. Species 4872 was only attacking the borg because they assumed it wasn't just the borg who wanted to destroy them. They misinterpreted the borg's attack has an attack from the entire Milky Way Galaxy. From their point of view they were fighting for their survival. Has we see in the episode of Species 4872's training ground to infiltrate Starfleet, they were training for a reconnaissance mission to determine weter or not the Federation was a threat. And they showed interest in the different alien species culture and were even open to a truce once the Voyager crew clarified why they had sided with the Borg. All of this could have been done so a lot earlier and saved trillions of lives had Janeway attempted to a dialogue with Species 8472, rather than attack them based on extremely vague information. Which for someone who should be an expert at diplomacy shows extreme incompetence and negligence on her part.
My favourite episode of Voyager. I was just so disappointed in Part 2 however, even if it did introduce Seven of Nine. I was expecting it to lead up to a climatic Borg/Species 8472/Voyager conflict, but instead we just got Chakotay giving Seven a headache...
The Borg never denies that they will assimilate them, they simply state the fact that for Janeway and her crew to live (presumably upon assimilation) requires they hand them the data. I like the consistency in that I also wouldn't expect a computer to lie or get emotional even with the threat of annihilation.
1:19 Once Janeway was on the borg ship, they could've assimilated her, and learned everything she knew about the species 8472 weakness from what she knew. That should've been the end of Voyager right there.
Picard and Sisko would have just let Species 8472 wreak havoc on the Borg. No more Borg, and no more preposterous and amateurish scripts involving them. And yet another reason why TNG and DS9 blow Voyager completely out of the water.
Janeway on her own inside a Borg cube discussing a possible alliance gives me the creeps - she is one and they are many - that's why i am not a start ship captain
0:59 "If you don't disengage your tractor beam immediately, I will have that data destroyed. You have 10 seconds to comply." And then the Borg abduct Janeway and still don't disengage their tractor beam. And the Voyager crew don't destroy the data on Species 8472 either.
I'll be quite hones. If I had been a Voyager crew member and found out my captain had helped the Borg, I'd start looking for places to jump ship. I wish there'd been more protest from the rest of the crew after everything was over.
+damdarch They may not have been near an opening to the conduits, the Borg may not have wanted Janeway (and eventually the rest of the Federation) to learn about the transwarp conduits, the transwarp conduits may not have been written into existence yet so how could the Borg utilize technology they didn´t have?
Transwarp conduits were introduced in TNG's "Descent, Part I," about four years prior to this episode, and the Borg assimilated Starfleet personnel in First Contact, which took place earlier the same year as this episode, so unless Starfleet classified information on the Borg's use of transwarp conduits, they should have known that Janeway and crew knew about them. The only logical explanation is that there was no nearby aperture to make use of.
Simple, Janeway wanted safe passageway through their space by her own means and The Borg would not want to reveal such a huge and somewhat fragile tactical advantage.
A superb episode. Love the pacing, the acting, and the soundtrack. That obvious green screen shot of Janeway on the cube though is so very badly lit though. Even for late 90s, it is pretty dire.
Paige Pratt But you have to admit that it’s far better than everything Star Trek since 2009. Voyager is a great show, I just think they didn’t used the Borg very well...