Thanks a bunch Keith. American Phase is a well known company. I live in Northern BC Canada and our wood working shop has one. Unfortunatly it sits inside but once we get used to it it is just like white noise. The motors running our equip are a fraction of what a 220 systems motors needs to be. The motors are easily switchable direction wise and much smaller than their 220 cousins. They run cooler and the power bill is proportainly smaller as well. Love it !
Keith, the answer to leaving the RPC running when you leave the shop is to have a relay wire into the shops light circuit. When you shut off the lights the relay shuts off the control circuit to the converter. My shop built RPC set up like this. It works great.
A related experience about the shop light based control of day/night power... Way back when I worked in a big company small lab, we decided to play it safe with our soldering irons and wired all the work bench outlets (as well as the bench lights) through a contactor that was turned on and off by the room light switch. Nice and handy. BUT one morning we had a nasty message from the night guard claiming that we violated the safety because he found the soldering irons hot when he came around. Of course, he turned the lights on for his inspection, causing the irons to start heating up.... So, we could not win? Because some of the night guards were changing every now and then, a training effort was not a good solution. We ended up engraving good size signs next to the light switch explaining the control feature. After that, the only issues were when we in special situations had to leave some data logging running over night. Luckily we had a couple of original non-switched outlets available and with a suitable note explained the special arrangement and situation, as well as verbally informed the guard shack about the one night test.
I made my choice to buy an American Rotary Phase Converter based on your recommendation. I am in Canada. Amazon Canada supplied the 10 horsepower unit. I was called by the supplier and they wanted to make sure I was buying the right unit. I was very pleased with this level of customer service.
Keith, you're definitely well into infomercial territory but I believe both AR and you have earned the right to demonstrate your mutual work with pride. I may not agree about other products but you left me with no doubt you believe every word said. I admire the candor and integrity you bring into RU-vid which keeps me coming back. Thank you for another fine job.
I have a 2 HP mill and a 10 HP lathe in my shop. I did a ton of research and shopping around before I finally settled on a Chinese VFD for the mill and a 10 HP single phase motor for the lathe. That may sound crazy, but the total cost for both was less than $500, and I don't have to find room for a rotary phase converter. This was the best solution for me. Everyone's situation will be different though, and I agree that if I had a bigger shop with a couple more machines a rotary phase converter would definitely be the best choice.
American Rotary Phase Converters are excellent pieces of equipment I've been using one in my shop for many years and never had a minutes problem out of it.
Learning so much from you, Thanks for all of your dedication. I hope people like you are still around when I get my shop going smoothly. At least your video is up for now. A friend of my family was really into wildlife photography and his website was amazing. When he passed they just unplugged everything. I hope to have a legacy one day that cant just be 'shut off' so easily.
Three phase is is globally used in industry because it gives totally smooth rotary motion, unlike single phase motors which have a slight 'judder'. It's really good for powering lathes. It gives the same power in a smaller motor size and avoids the need for start up capacitors and associated centrifugal switches - all maintence items. It also beneficial for the supply company as heavy industrial loads are inherently balanced over the three phase generation and distribution network - it only drops to single phase for domestic use at the very last moment. There are very significant differences between how single phase domestic supplies are derrived in the US and in the UK - it is not just a matter of different voltage and frequency. BobUK.
When I purchased from them directly, I tried to get the discount but they said they were already at a sales price and couldn't discount it further. In actuality they have great support, very knowledgeable and the lady in sales was extremely nice so I really didn't mind about the 10% especially since I thought the price would double by using your name Keith, lol. That last part was a joke Keith 😀. Unless you're building your own RPC, I would say give this company a shout while supporting their business, people and the USA as well and plus a Quality product. Love that new one you have Keith...Ciao.. Ricko
Thank you so much. You have answered a lot of questions that I didn't even know I had. I had no idea that all of those bells and whistles were available.
I had a small issue with an American Rotary idler motor. After speaking with American Rotary's customer service, they took care of my issue. Seems like American Rotary has pretty good service as well as quality units.
Keith, I love your videos. When you described three guys driving a stake, I immediately imagined Larry, Curly, and Moe (the Three Stooges). Keep up the good work.
Another key difference between single and three phase is in motor start function. Typically you will see start capacitors on motors with single phase. The capacitor generates a phase difference to get the motor to start in a consistent direction. Where on 3 phase the orientation of the phases generates the motor direction. Which means it's really easy to reverse a motor on 3 phase, just change two wires between any two phases.
Yes, three phase generates motor direction. But a better explanation is that the rise and fall of voltage (and current) makes a rotating wave kind of like doing the wave in a football stadium. There are animated videos online that demonstrate this. And keep on getting the word out about RPC.
I live in Idaho. I added another power drop to my shop. At first the power company was saying I would have to pay for the installation and wire. I told them if I pay for it, I own it. When I leave, I can take the wire with me. I paid for it, I own it. They wound up installing it for free. Depends on the contract the power company has with the state. I had natural gas re installed at a house I was renovating and the gas company tried to get me to sign a blank work order. They wanted me to pay for the gas line coming from their main to the house. I said no. It's on your side of the meter. Can't say you can do this but it's on their side of the meter. They own it.
I have an AR10 10hp RPC in my shop and it works great. Very simple to set up and it runs multiple machines. I played with VFD's first and didn't get the results I wanted. I could have saved hundreds and a big headache going straight to a RPC.
Nice upgrades! My AI 50hp was even older than your first one. It still works just as it should and can even start the big 40hp Monarch ok. I would like to have an even bigger unit and I may have to get one as my 200AMP Plasma cutter is going to be a good test on it as will the Big CNC Mill as the voltages and loads are a lot different for those items than they are for just regular electric motors.
I hope it works out for your plasma, I have heard guys talking about using a RPC on welders and all the trouble they have had. Some of them gave up and got single phase welders instead.I think they were all transformer type welders and not the inverter type.
Hello Keith, thanks for sharing that information with the community. There are pros and cons with any 3ph solution unless it comes straight from the pole but its part of existing in a home shop. Keep up the good work and the great videos.
Clyde, the technology actually exists and its used in vehicles. A camera watches the driver's eyes and if it looks like he is getting drowsy, it plays a very loud BONG through the car speakers hehehe. No it just warns the driver.
Thank you. I learned a lot from this one. I guess if you have one or two machines with small to midsize motors, VFD's might make sense, but I really like the idea you can use the rotary phase converter and wire it up as you have with a panel for just 3 phase power. I think a lot of people setting up home shops shy away from three phase even if it's available from the power company directly much less if a solution like that phase converter would be required. You can find some smoking deals on used three phase machines for that very reason and end up with better machines. It should go without saying that if you aren't fully competent and comfortable wiring three phase, hire an electrician.
Hi Keith :-) Just a small piece of advice for ya. Not sure if you have ever experienced the dreaded "Single Phasing" of a 3 phase motor or not but it can happen quick and it can get expensive if it does happen. In case you're not familiar with Single Phasing, it's when one of the 120v legs drops for whatever reason (Example: if your rotary phase converter should fail), Single Phasing can burn up your motor literally in seconds. I use what's called a "Phase Monitor", what it does is monitor the voltage of each leg and if one leg should drop, the monitor will shut off all power to your machines, keep in mind however that the phase monitor has to be connected to a 3 pole contactor with a single phase coil to energize it (120v in your case). Also in your case it would be best to have a contactor rated for how ever many amps that would cover one or two machines that you may have running at one time, the contactor will kill all 3 phase power but not the single phase power that's used for things like lights and other 120v appliances. Since you are basically a one man show, the contactor would likely only need to be rated for maybe 50 amps. Most of your machines probably don't draw near that much, even with two running at once. Phase monitors are cheap and contactors are pretty cheap as well, I paid less that $150 for my phase monitor and less than $100 for the contactor, I could easily pay twice that amount just to have a 5 HP motor rewound. Here's a link to what I'm talking about: www.supplyhouse.com/ICM-Controls-ICM450C-ICM450-3-Phase-Line-Voltage-Monitor-Delay-on-Break-Timer-0-10-Minutes-English?gclid=Cj0KCQiAtf_tBRDtARIsAIbAKe2Qt7LGmmG2sJcTD2Lr8kESTT20NAttOyAWwoBuhFWbMjfqXZybkikaApCTEALw_wcB I use the ICM450 and lots of places stock them. Heck, I may have an extra one laying around that I could send you for free, I used to install a bunch of them before I retired, I'm almost positive I have 2 or 3 laying around here somewhere :-) I don't think I have any contactors left but I'll have a look to be sure, if I do have one, I'll send you one of those as well. (If you are interested that is). Of course now that I think about it, American Rotary may already have phase motoring built in as standard equipment. I haven't looked at their equipment since I don't need it. It may be worth asking American Rotary of phase monitoring is one of their standard features. BTW, most likely the biggest part of those capacitors are there to increase the efficiency, they help to bring the power factor as close as they can to PF-1. Thanks Keith!! Joe
I had 3 phase ran into my pole barn. I was really lucky to have the power line really close. It was relatively cheap to have run with the Power Co-op we get our power from. But it came with a monthly fee whether i use the power or not.
Hi Keith , very interesting , here in the 🇬🇧 , you can have 3 phase in a ‘ home environment ‘ but they load the cost so unless your a big user it’s not cost effective ... I have run all my 3 phase machines from a Transwave ( UK built unit ) for the last 20 plus years never missed a beat ( you watch it will fall over now I’ve talked about it !) an excellent unit solid state , no motor running .... Regards Robert PARTSMADE 🇬🇧
American Rotary sell the electronics kits so you can use your own motor, great for many users who often score large three phase motors for dirt cheap or free.
i got 3 phase from the pole which is about 20 feet from the house. I looked at the phase converter but given the need( as they told me) to be situated close to the distribution board and then the cost of running the wires to the shed it worked out cheaper to get the 3 phase connected. I live in australia and it cost just over $A 10 000.
6:40 Keith, when you talk about static phase converters, static phase converters are not as efficient because they are simply only a 'starting circuit' to get a 3-phase motor started and going, and then after that, the 3-phase motor is running off single-phase power that's providing 2 of the 3 legs. Because of the 'missing leg' in this instance, the motor is only putting out 2/3 of its potential power and torque. Not good at all for the home machine shop if you're going to be doing serious turning and milling. The only thing static phase converters have going for them is how inexpensive they are, but that is more than offset by how machines using them only have 2/3 or 66% of their normal power and torque available.
coop in central texas wants a pole approximately every 400 feet at about 2500 per pole. Sooooo, that's about $16500 in central Texas to run your 3 phase. I got lucky and have a three phase feeder line running through my small ranch. Coop said they had to run a pole for anything more than 40 fee from feeder line pole. Just by coincidence the corner of my shop is exactly 39 feet from pole......aint that somethin!
I'm going through the option of updating my shop with 3 phase wiring. I had an electrical engineer out and even went through the process of seeing what it would cost to get utility supplied 3 phase, but the quote came back at about $13,000 just to run the lines to the house, then again almost that much for meter and everything. so....nope. While I still have to update my shop as the wiring run from the house is only 50amps, going to upgrade the house to 400amp and shop to 200amp with a single circuit that goes into my rotary phase converter and feeds a 3 phase load center. At least that's the current plan. I'll post videos as the work progresses. If you check my channel I have a video on building my own 30hp rotary phase converter. No where near as nice as the American Rotary, but if looking for a budget solution it can be had for much cheaper after finding a motor on craigslist or similar used motor source.
You must have a power line close to your house, usually that's about $8000 to $20,000 to get the 3 phase drop. My power is under ground, was quoted $350,000 to get 3 phase here, that was due to road construction and what-not. So yep, split meter current transformer with a rotary for me!
Yeah getting 3ph even if it is outside of your home is expensive plus you pay extra for another meter every month. Sure enough the "green new deal" is making sure we all heat up the atmosphere by running our phase converters.
I contacted my power company to see about bringing 3 phase into my garage shop. At the time I had only a single 15amp 110v circuit to the garage (enough to drive the lights and door opener). In order to run my equipment I had to run a generator. Pulling cable from the house to the garage was, at the time price prohibitive. The power company won't put a second feed into a single building (Not sure why but that's what it was). So I asked for 3 phase. 3 phase on the poles stopped about 4 or 5 poles from my house. $13,000 to get 3 phase to the pole outside my house. Free install and then a quite reasonable monthly fee to have good clean 3 phase to the shop. Decided that I'd pay to pull cable from the house panel to the garage sub-panel. 3 phase is nice if you can get it to your shop. But the cost always seems a little high.
@@tomk3732 It is cheap unless you are talking "home shop" where $13K is a bunch of new equipment. I had the $500 to pull cable from house panel to garage panel. I didn't have $13K to have 3 phase run.
@@ctjctj2 It is cheap as compared to some others getting quote in 100k+ range. I would also not spend 13k for just 3ph drop that I also need another meter for and extra 1000+ in fees every year. You can get a nice used CNC for that $.
Torque ripple could best be envisioned by the difference it would make driving your engine lathe with a one cylinder IC motor and a three cylinder motor. The wiring of three phase for a given code rated ampacity is 50% more copper but transmittes 72% more power. Win-win.
It seem to be a very nice system. I’m surprised that you don’t have 3 phase to all users there. In Sweden we have 3 phase everywhere to my knowledge. I have a small house with a little garage and I have 3 phase. It’s standard here. BTW its very nice work you do. It’s so fun to fallow this channel, thanks.
A very interesting video Keith. I love the idea of the RPC turning itself off. ( I only have a 12" lathe/mill combination machine) so putting a 2 hp 3 phase motor with VFD gave me total control of the machine. I have a new British made VFD (after the chinese one blew up after6 months of use) and I am a little confused as to your comments on the amperage needed to run one, certainly a standard 13 amp 240 volt UK domestic circuit is plenty for a 4 hp motor according to the manufacturers and the machine performs on this new VFD brilliantly. The control parameters are easy to set but the VFD worked perfectly straight out of the box. I only had to program the external controls and the ramp up and down times. ( lm not in a production environment so I like 3.5 seconds up and down. Don't like freewheeling to a stop. I have a 5 1/2" 3 jaw and 6" 4 jaw chuck's but they are both very chunky so with direct drive to the motor rather than two lots of belts they took what felt like an age to come to a halt, so dynamic braking was the way to go but not excessively. Love your videos Keith please keep them coming .
In the area I live, to get 3 phase, it has to be something like within I think 5 miles. Yes, you pay for it, a lot. If there is a company with 3 phase within 5 miles, I think its something like $10,000 if not more just to get it to you. Rotary phase converters is the next best answer to get your 3 phase and much more cost effective.
I had three phase power brought into my home shop some years back from Entergy...The power sub station is across the street from my shop.. To hang one transformer for the third leg and bring the cable to my shop was 1000 dollars because my demand is so low... Of course, there was another one thousand dollars worth on my end that I had to pay for....I am good for 50 hp and I have 120/240/208 which is open delta and is about 67% efficient I understand but still have 120/240 single phase in my home and shop for 240 single phase motors... I was running on a 5hp home made rotary phase converter prior to that... Mike in Louisiana
You have 87% of the capacity of the 2 transformers (if they are the same size). We have many existing customers with this setup but unfortunately no longer offer this setup for new 3ph customers. They must all go 120/208 requiring 3 transformers.
@@danielnack6812 I'm glad I got mine because 208 sucks if you have a 240 volt single phase motor to run.....The original transformer feeds two houses single phase .. The third leg transformer was added for my shop three phase.....Mike in Louisiana
For a 1 or 2 machines (mill and lathe) a VFD is probably the better choice, based on cost. Anything more than say 4-5 machines, phase converters make more since financially.
Nah, once I got to two machines I ditched VFDs. You get to run the machines on their native power as they were intended to run. No need to re-wire. No need to wait for VFD to speed them down. No need for extra capacitors to slow them down. I would consider VFDs still just for speed control.
In our town of 900 we have a car wash that was upgraded with 3 phase equipment and the owners had to buy the transformers ( 3 ) besides paying to have them installed to get 3 phase. The distance from the pole with the transformers to the facility pole is across a two lane street or about 60 feet. Three phase was already on the pole when the switch was done.
Hi Keith, I'm a native Brit (ex-Pat) living in Germany and indeed, we all have 3 phase (I think mostly to get enough power for the Kitchen (the Hobs / Ovens you buy are configurable for 3-Phase or single). I think in Germany, the default 3-phase is 3 x 16amp phases (for your kitchen). In the UK (domestic properties have a default 100amp 230v supply) so to get the full load into the kitchen, the properties are wired with 45amp or 60amp spurs, (this is especially true in bathrooms where some electric showers units can be 11Kw. Quite simply, 60amp cable is (a) expensive and (b) an itch to work with. I am nor sure what standing IEEE regulations stipulate for cable, probably 16mm², which is more of a pig to work with than 10mm². In my native UK (North Wales) there is 3-phase going down pretty much every street too, so if you want 3 phase, it's usually only a case of bringing in the other 2 phases in. In most cases, in terraces for example, 3 phase cables run right past (often, along and undernearth the eaves, tapped off as it passes each property); so quite often, there is 3-phase already on your property anyway. I don't know how the US runs it's power but you mention that you have 220v. Now for my understanding, you guys have single phase 110v domestic supplies, so am I right to assume that you actually have 2 of the three phases generated anyway, if so, adding (creating) the missing phase is easier. If you only have one of the 3 phases, then making the 2 missing phases, would create a fairly large current load on the one incoming phase. I'm just curious as to how you're 220v supply is actually provisioned, hopefully, someone will explain. Many thanks and keep up the good work. Hopefully I will have a bigger workshop one day but can only dream of one the size of yours... All the Best, Martin.
The supply voltage is 240v utilisation is 230v. The 240v is supplied as 2x 120v 180deg apart. We run to the 3ph engine 2 legs from the 240v and generate the 3rd leg. Thus I get 240v 240v and 270v from generator. 15hp 3ph engine is connected with 60amp 240v single phase breaker but can work with 50amp breaker as well, through not at full power. This is more then adequate to start 10hp lathe.
Before I had a shop with 3 phase I built a home made rotary converter. Some switches, 3 big capacitors and a used 3 phase motor. It worked fine for several years. When I built a new shop where 3 phase was available the power company wanted $6000 to set a 3 phase transformer. That was 29 years ago. After a discussion with one of their engineers where he advised me to list all my current and proposed equipment and the hours of use (somewhat exaggerated) they agreed to set the transformer at no cost. 10 years latter we were maxed out on our 800 amps of capacity and the power company had to set a bigger transformer.
Let me explain 3 phase availability a little better. Here in the US whether you can even get it depends on if you live near 3 phase lines or not. You only see 3 phase power lines on major routes for the most part. Where I used to live you could not even get it run. Where I live now I could PROBABLY get it, but there's another issue. That issue is cost. I've seen Keith talk about the nice electrical co-op he has. Where I live we don't have that nice co-op, we have Eversource. I have another name for them that I won't mention here....use your imaginations. If I call the clearing desk looking for 3-phase hookup they are going to get all excited because they will have somebody else that they can send a FIVE FIGURE monthly electric bill to..
For me as a German it is hard to think about not having three phase power coming into the house and also voltages are about half of that here in Germany so for the same power you need the double ammount of amps and therefore double the cross section area of wiring.
Hi, watched you struggle with explaining three phase power with great interest. One thing you didn't mention is that a three phase motor can give more power for the same physical size. A bridgeport milling machine with a single phase motor of the same power would be impossible! We had a single phase 2hp powered bandsaw for wood with a motor the size of a dustbin ( trash can to you) when it was replaced with a three phase 10 hp the motor was no bigger than a large paint can!!! The shaft had have a keyed sleeve made to adapt the 2 1/2" original shaft to 1 1/2" of the new motor and blocks to raise it to correct height from the Base casting. I watched your video on the radial arm drill move and fastening it down in new location but you didn't mention about leveling it up in its new home. It also didn't seem to have any way of adjusting it on the Base. If the drill pillar is not vertical and the Base is not level in both directions then you can't use a level on the work to align it on the table, with awkward shape like manifolds and castings this is sometimes the only way to line them up. Perhaps you could show this on your new machine that replaces the le blonde ( with a younger helper to scrabble in the tight corners!). K Ps you might get someone setting off your remote control with their mobile or garage door opener or other interference/ radio signal turning it on or off and may not just be you forgetting to turn it off when you go home at all. I am sure that an electrician could fit a second hard wired on off switch at the other doorway easily rather than relying on the remote which could be left behind somewhere or broken in your pocket.
Hi Folks, Perhaps I can help. Static convertors are only really suitable for running one machine at a time and Keith is not too far off when talking about static vs rotary convertors, but the comments on VFD's need expanding. VFD's do indeed generate three output phases from a single input phase. However, these are synthesised 'stepped' waves, not the nice smooth pure sine wave ones you get from rotary convertor. They can generate a lot of annoying electrical interference if not properly filtered. Troubesome when trying to record video, for example. In the more advanced VFD models the average wave shape does not follow a sine wave either, they are 'fatter' which is how they can give more torque at lower speeds. And, just to make Keith feel happy (!) they are nothing like as efficient as a rotary convertor - they draw lots of amps for not so many output. Not suitable for running an entire shop, for that the right decision is usually a rotary convertor. VFD's have to be 'tuned' to the individual motors so you would really need a VFD per machine. An expensive solution in Keith's wonderfully well equipped shop. Where VFD's do shine is in giving variable speed control over a 10:2 or maybe 20:1 range - useful on things like smaller non-gear head lathes and belt driven pillar drills. And they are acoustically much quieter to run. But shop wide with multiple machines running at the same time? Nope. Keith's right. Use a rotary convertor and put it outside. BobUK.
I'm not sure where you are, but in the suburbs of Los Angeles, CA. the local power company was out repairing the lines in our neighborhood when a huge pine tree fell over and took out the power lines. According to the Supervisor Lineman he stated that the main lines running down the poles in our area the power was about 3.5k Volts 3-phase and the transformers on every-other pole broke it down to 220V Single-phase with a 100 Amp drop to each home. But 3-phase power was not allowed to be directed into a home as it's way too dangerous.
NOTE: There are more than one way to wire up a 3-phase circuit: "Y" (three power wires going to a central return with fuzes on each power wire) or "DELTA" (the three wires connected in a triangle loop with fuzes between each corner power wire input and a separate common return). Each has its own pros and cons and which to use depends on various factors. Most normal uses just use whatever the company making the converter suggests. This is a rather interesting subject...
@@tomk3732 Yes Denmark have 4 cords digged down in soil now,before then were in the air.All homes have 240 volts,which is difference between zero-0- and one phase.,I just use a generator on my tractor,400 volt 35 amps. whenever I need to weld something with 400 amps.,not so often.Cheaper that way in my case.
11:00 - VFD's actually vary the voltage in proportion to the frequency, and this gives an effect similar to speeding up or slowing down the generator - you need to think about back EMF, and power factor here ... a topic for some one else?
I have a three phase pole three feet from my building, yes 3 feet....and the first question I was asked, how much power are you going to use?.... Oh and by the way, it will be 12,000 dollars just to run a line in.........Three feet away!!!!! So yes, screw the power company....I too have a Rotary Phase converter........
4:12 - it is far easier to balance 3 phase loads - here in Oz, 3 phase is everywhere, the powers that be will wire up housing along the lines of house 1 gets A&B, phases, house 2 will get B&C phases and house 3 will get C&A phases; statistically, this will balance the load on the generating system.
Just phase angle calculations. I always wanted to get a big diesel generator but they are all 3phase. Only way i figured was to rectify it all us mainly dc appliances. Looking for better battery solutions like nickle hydride so excess could be stored hydrogen
There may be 3 phase High Voltage (the top wires with the big insulators) on the pole, BUT then they still need to add 1 or 2 additional tran$formers (if 1 transformer is missing, it would be called Open Delta which phantoms the 3rd phase) to step 1200-2400V down to 240V
My 15 hp draws 2.5 amps at idle. The Baldor motors AR uses should be a different NEMA letter class motor with better silicone steel in the laminations and thinner laminations, also to improve efficiency. From an engineering standpoint its better to use this type in higher ratings than use a 1950s torque monster like I did. The start rating ratio on mine would be higher but it'll use more current every day than the modern equivelent.
The 3 lines are 120 degrees apart in phases , and basically drive the motor by the use of a rotating magnetic field - the field literally drags the rotor around, magnetically. Some else could explain this better, but I'm pretty close. Also if two of the phases are swapped, the motor will go backwards, and.is more efficient, and more powerful, something that single phase motors lack, especially as the HP increases.
Thanks Keith. I'm talk with them now, and I can say they are very very helpful. Thank for the explanation, the VFD and rotary phase is what I'm trying to decide witch one??
How many machines and motors? More than 3-5 it is likely better to get a rotary, less than 3-5 then better to just put VFDs on them. (remember a machine with multiple motors would require multiple VFDs)
I have a friend here in Houston who is a retired electrical engineer. He has his own home machine shop and needed 3 phase power to run some of his machines. He wanted to save money and, the power company only supplies "single phase" power to residences. The term "single phase" is somewhat misleading. What residences actually get is two phases out of a possible three. These two phases take the form of two sine waves that are 120 degrees out of phase from each other and come in on two separate "hot" wires. The potential difference (voltage) between any phase and ground is 120 volts. The potential difference between the two phases is 220 volts. These two phases are what make it possible to run 220-volt electric clothes driers and 220-volt welding machines off a regular residential electrical service. They call it "single phase" service but it really contains two phases and a ground. My friend went to the recycle yard looking for a used 3 phase motor in good working condition. I don't know what all he did to the motor (maybe nothing) but he used it to generate his own three-phase current. A three-phase motor will run on only two phases. Once the armature is in motion, all those fluctuating magnetic fields cause induction to take place and the missing third phase is generated in the third pole of the motor armature. My friend inputs regular two-phase residential current into a three-phase motor and draws off three phases from the same motor for his shop. And all for the price of a recycled three-phase motor.
Your wrong single phase is just that, single phase. Go look at the transformer on the pole. There is only one high voltage connection to the transmission line. There are five wires connected to the transformer. One high voltage hot and one ground on the primary side. The secondary side has two lower voltage hots and a neutral coming out. You get residential 120/240 power due to the center tapped secondary side of the transformer on the pole. One leg to the neutral centertap gives 120v. Both hot legs together give 240v between them. The two 120 legs are 180 degrees apart
Thanks for setting the original poster straight. If he actually had two phase power then he wouldn't need a rotary phase converter at all. Just an additional transformer would do.
It is single phase not two phase. It is single as both parts of 120V are not shifted against each other - they are in synch with each other. You get multiple phases as you shift things against each other. Your friend needs either capacitors to start his 3ph motor, or a small "pony motor" or a long piece of cord or he runs one motor with another motor.
Just wondering, how much did you pay for your whole set up all said and done? It would be helpful if you did a breakdown of why are you paid for the phase converter, the wiring and the disconnects for each machine
There is one thing about rotary phase converters that cannot be overcome by any VFD, whether it is a el-cheapo or not. The rotary phase converter creates a pure sinusoidal waveform without any whatsoever harmonics. No VFD can do that. Rotary phase converter can also be overloaded for the split second needed to get the motor running. The overloadability and the pure output waveform are the plus-side for a rotary converter. Also, one can disconnect the load from the rotary converter. Do that with a VFD and You have most probably created a boat anchor. This regardless it is a el-cheapo or a real brand name VFD. They just want the motor to be connected at all times. This means that You do need to modify the internal connections of Your machine to run it with a VFD. With rotary converter the original connections are quite allright. Another thing is that the output of the rotary converter is quite immune to long motor wires. VFD on the other hand does not cope well with long motor wires and as the wires become longer so does the voltage inside the motor increase. This can lead into motor insulation breakdowns and eventually destruction of the motor windings. Further more, one needs one VFD for each motor that is to be ran. You can run multiple motors with one VFD but that is digging the blood out of Your nose and You cannot use the PID with this type of configuration. The VFD is designed to be used with one motor at a time. The rotary converter in it's turn can handle multiple motors as long as the power rating is not exceeded. That all being said, the VFD is a valid option if one can live with the shortcomings: - motor leads - one VFD for each motor - modifications on machine control switches - radio interference and funny sound from the motor The VFD and electronics in general are one thing that the chinese can do well. It is more than probable that the "professional" grade VFD actually has chinese made electronics inside it. I would not doom the chinese VFD's so easily. I actually bought 2 of those for my Schaublin milling machine. I already have one in my lathe and I have nothing to report of that one. It works exactly as intended. One easy to make mistake with the chinese VFD's is to pick up too small model. When the label states 3kW it means that the unit can deliver 3kW and not a milliwatt more than that. So, if You are going to run a 1.5kW motor, get at least a 3kW VFD for it. Having a VFD whose power "matches" the motor is a recipe for a short lived VFD and not-so-optimal control of the motor.
I am not disagreeing with your comment, but there are some advantages that VFD's provide that make them advantageous. For example, with straight 3 phase power, motors get up to speed very fast and this can be problematic for machines like surface grinders: it can throw the wheel out of true. That's why the wheels are dressed every time the machine is started, and they aren't stopped until finished. With a VFD, the motor can be slowly brought up to speed without affecting the wheels alignment. This is a huge benefit. Even with 3 phase, I would put a VFD on a surface grinder for this reason alone. VFD's have benefits for other equipment beyond mere speed control. Lathes with large chucks can take a long time to stop. VFD's offer dynamic braking which resolves this problem. There are operations like power tapping that are more pleasant when the machine ramps-up and down rather than abrupt starts and stops.
An easy way to visualize 3 phase power is to think of it as three legs of single phase power delivered 333.3 milliseconds off set from each other. All three phases are 60 cycle but the cycle is delayed 333.3 milliseconds to each other. L1 is at 333.3 milliseconds, L2 is at 666.6milliseconds, L3 is at 999.9 (or 1000Milliseconds). Think of L2 and L3 as phase shifted from L1.
I saw a need to 'simply' upgrade my #2 Al SEC but that would cost a $1.5k engineer assessment plus $10-20k to pull about 200' of new wire. Keep in mind this is all underground and the existing 1.5" underground conduit could handle the #0 Cu wire I needed but they would insist on retrenching I'm told. Gotta love California and PG&E. Oh: they would get to it in 12-15 months. *rolls eyes*
For one single machine its OK. Then you get another.... then you ditch the VFDs like me and just get rotary for slightly more then price of used quality 5hp VFD.
Where did you get that indicator light and how did you wire it? I just got a 75hp American rotary phase converter that sits outside and would love to do this.
Great video!! Could you provide the details on the control center built - i.e. the light and switch. I am looking to install an American Rotary phase converter and would like to incorporate that setup. Thx
I expect the three phase power would take a transformer at the site where it was used. What does it take go get 120v out of three phase transformer? I wonder if you could get three phase installed at a new home at a reasonable price above a standard installation. .
Hey, Keith...thanks for another great segment. I have a suggestion. Try explaining single phase and 3 phase like trying to pump a bicycle. In single phase, like in a single rider bicycle, there is a peddle position where both peddles are lined up with your legs and you can't make it go. With three phase, it's like having a bicycle built for three with the peddles 120 degrees apart. If one of the peddles is aligned where you can't push down, the other two are guaranteed to be able to provide the torque. Your steam engines are another example...I'm an old electrical guy, but seems like there was something about single cylinder steam engines that was similar... I realize this is not exactly technically accurate, but it is a way to visualize one advantage of three phase. Thanks for taking time to bring us along ...
@@machintelligence yep, on a two cylinder engine, they may be out of phase, so you don't have to get it barred over...that's the analogy I was looking for with the three phase system. Love your work...thanks.
I was told by my power company about 3 phase power.im 440 foot away from the road at $11 a foot for wire.plus 3 transformers that I pay a percentage of.pretty much $10000 to $15000.so vfd for me.
It is important to consider that these converters are an acceptable solution for using 3 phase motors. More sensitive 3 phase loads may do less well. This is by the nature of the construction of these systems. A 3 phase motor is a very forgiving thing...not everything else is. There is nothing wrong with that, as long as one is aware of it. As an example, I would be less keen to feed a 3 phase VFD (3 in, 3 out) from any rotary converter. This will initially work, but how long ...that's anybody's guess. And VFD-3in-3out are not cheap items either. The US grid is a legacy grid. This goes back to the days when Edison was in it for the money and Tesla actually knew what he was talking about! Updating the US grid to a European style system, would probably cost more than the Moon-shot! These rotary converters are really not the worst solutions, as long as the customer is aware of it's limitations. If complex CNC machines have to be driven, I would opt for a system that has a separate motor and generator (basically an electric motor, single phase, driving a gennie which is three phase) This has other issues, such as differential load issues. usually the load on the 3 legs needs to be within 15-20 % of one another. Zero percent being ideal. Some of the problems can indeed be overcome by over- dimensioning the convertor, but that costs coin.... quite a substantial amount...Knowing that a modest model will set you back 2.5 K -3 K, it is clear where this is leading. Another thing to consider, for the home-gamer, garage- warrior or rank amateur is the fact that you are almost always alone in your shop. This means that you will have one 3 phase item on at the time. The only exception to that may be a shaper,which can be left running while you are working, say, on the lathe. Now, unless you go Abom-size on these things, shapers are usually pretty modest in their demands. I have a klopp 450 (18") which takes 1.5 Kw (2 'orses) or about 2 Kw (2 'orses and a limp mule) with the coolant pump on. Add to that another 2.5 Kw for either a lathe or a milling machine and your total demands are not likely to be more than about 5 Kw (7 well-rested 'orses). Depending on the wiring available, a VFD solution my well be a lot cheaper in this case. Nothing stops you from getting a beefy VFD and distributing its output to your machines. The fact that is made to vary frequency is academic. This is basically just a by product of making 3 phases out of one, in an electronic manner. The moral of story : think long and hard before you part with your money and if in doubt, seek advise from someone who actually knows and is not connected to the company you are buying from. Paddy, EE
I run a single Lathe off a single VFD and it is good enough, everything else is single phase. If I had 20 machines and needed big HP, I probably would do what Keith is doing. I am sure the power company would want $50,000 to get me 3 wires and power. If I was German I would have 440 3-phase coming to my house from the grid. Most home shops don't have 20 3 phase machines. With the exception to some home shops just about no one in the USA in a home has the need for 3 phase power. Almost everything you own that has no motor is converted to low voltage DC at the device. Anything else in the will run fine on 220 or 110 single phase 200 or 100 amp service found in the USA.
Edison played a major role in America's adoption of 110/220, but he wasn't the only party pushing for lower voltage. A large copper producer promoted lower voltages because it requires twice as much copper for distribution than 220/440. We got screwed with lower voltage so that a producer could sell more copper and Edision won't have to alter the design of this 100 VDC light bulbs. They worked fine with 110 VAC. It's hard to believe that more than a century has lapsed and we're still stuck with the crappy standards they crammed down our throats.
We got lucky really..... When the grass was still green and the sky still blue, long ago when lectric was new, the politicians panicked. They needed some standards! A bunch of engineers said "here use this, that's how we do things...." Given that politicians were as clueless then as they are now, they adapted the standards, sold them as their own, and all was well. That's why I have 240/400 V 3ph coming in my shop! In the 90s' they tried balancing on an estate level rather than an individual level, so plenty of the more modern houses have single phase, but they can get 3 phase without having to sell a kidney on the black market. This experiment was abandoned after about a decade. With my 3 times 400V , 32 amps per phase, I can run pretty much anything I like. And since the lone home-shopper usually only has one thing running at the time, it is of no consequence if the missus turns on a washing machine or tumble dryer in the house.You just have to take care that your stuff is wired up as balanced as you can get it. I do use one VFD, on an older lathe. That unit is an old industrial unit (3 phase in, 3 phase out) This has rather decent torque compensation, and works surprisingly well (came from a conveyor belt installation) It can run up to 7 Kw motors, but I only need 1,5 for that lathe...so it's a bit on the big side. (about six times the size of the play boxes you get on ebay these days) All the best Paddy
Yeah, the additional amperage required by a 2-to-3 phase converter is expensive. For my lathe I needed 10AWG to carry 30A for a 3HP motor. The machine wire was expensive, the cable was expensive, even the plug was expensive.
A 3-Phase motor makes a noticeable difference in surface finish on even a small lathe such as an Atlas or South Bend. I had a 3 phase motor with a VFD on my 12x24 Atlas for several years, worked great with a obvious difference in smoothness and finish quality.
AR is the best solution for you. You're between a hard place and a rock, and it's nice that they stepped up to help the community. I'm sure that it's brought good sales at their door.
I can confirm this! Only place where I have seen one-phase system here in Finland, is in a city apartment, but that is only inside that one apartment, the house itself has 3-phase system. It is maybe possible to get one-phase system also in rural areas, but it is not cost effective.
@@sleeptyper Had to check. Looks that Caruna does not sell single phase, but Loiste (old kainuun valo) will, but it is severely limited, less than 500w and 1x16A. 1x16A cost 2000€ and 3x25A cost 4000€ (both minimum prices). I suspect that with those prices and power ratings that single phase is sold only for really special cases.
@@tomk3732 You'll probably enjoy the fact that we can charge our cellphones from the very same outlet that we can run our washing machines and clothes dryers too, lol. We don't need to fiddle with 110v and 220v outlets and wirings. 400v 3-phase is for big machinery.
They will run anyone 3-phase power, but money has to be what is talking to them. Even if it is right outside your house by default, they will charge an arm and a leg for it.
I have 1 phase power, but need 3 phase. So for the missing phase..... Math makes the astute go HUH? 1 phase of the 3 produced at the power co is used to provide your home / shop electricity. The power co uses a transformer to step their distribution voltage down to your home voltage of 120/240. The 1 phase 240 is 2 x 120 feeds that are 180 degrees apart from each other. A rotary phase converter uses those 2 x 120 volt phases to generate a 3rd 120V phase & double that voltage to 240V. Capacitors are used to shift the 2nd phase from 180 degrees to 120. The idler motor acts as a generator to take the excitation from the 2 supplied phases to create a 3rd phase. This is an oversimplified explanation.
Single phase has 2 lines in each aprox 110 volts for total of 220 volts. 3 phase has 3 lines in, 220v 360v 440v in total voltage.If you understand single phase 220 v it's not hard to understand 3 phase. 3 phase is always lower amps for running motors, as is 220v single phase is always lower amperage than 110v. Think of it as more power with less amps and easier starting a load.
