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As a NYC old head, I feel like there’s a whole other level of conversation that you really only hear from NYC old heads. Like from our perspective, we saw the West Coast, Dirty South, and Midwest as novelty acts vying for second place. So people were talking about Uncle Luke or Scarface as GOATS, we were laughing. Thinking “if they were any good, they’d be in NY”. If I haven’t heard them on Hot 97 or Power 103, they weren’t ready for the main stage. Unfortunately, that made us lazy. And we got stale. Add to that the “east cost/west coast rivalry” and the country ass No Limit sound, and we got real proud and stubborn. By the time we realized that we were no longer the center of the hip hop universe, the center fell out and the internet age expanded the playing field even more.
@@MonkeyDJaden75 I would actually argue there is no Top Dog the way there used to be. You have artists coming from all over. There’s not really the same regional style anymore. The line between mainstream and underground isn’t as easy to draw. And no single area has a mon opoly on best in the business. The top artists right now are mixed from NY, LA, Texas, Philly, Canada, Atlanta, Chicago, Miami, St. Louis, and depending who you ask, even more places. Hip-Hop changed and left those rivalries behind.
Being from New Orleans (the birthplace of No Limit & Cash Money), now living in the Dallas area, you pretty much summed up what I was gonna point out...y'all got lazy & way too cocky.
Actual old here. For the most part, your takes are spot-on, let me provide some touch-up: 1. Music spread mainly through a. radio, b. tours like freshfest, and c. TAPES. Cassettes & VHS were the circulatory system of music back then, ESPECIALLY hip hop. Some mixes and concert recordings were literal legends, mythic items. If you had a cousin in NYC, and they came for a visit, they inevitably had at least one or two recordings of WBLS or KISS FM shows. Kids would have dubs of dubs. And every place had a record store and if you were lucky, someone in there knew wtf they were doing and would stock 12" records for the DJs and the fans. This is before rap was even an acknowledged category (outside of NY/NJ/LA), so they would typically be sorted in alphabetically with the pop/rock records. So going into a store and coming out with a record by someone you never heard of was a real and common thing - which was why it was important for new artists to signify that (a) rap and (b) here's who I'm down with. 2. The 80s old heads most definitely grumbled about the 90s rap. The term "new jack" started out as derisive before the culture flipped it. And NYC in particular went through a shift as the next up didn't want to rock Fila and dookey gold chains and kangol and considered all of that played out. Conscious rap (or at least the vibe) took over the culture for a hot minute right before NWA blew everything up and NYC hip hop culture stopped steering the culture for the first time ever. Which is the actual roots of the coast beef, because NYC saw the west coast as 1. less lyrically capable 2. fraudulent with the gangster posturing, and 3. crowding out NYC artists. The West Coast did have lyricists though, and many of them stepped up to the lyrical challenge and even the conscious rap challenge and weren't at all on gangster stuff but that's off topic. Point is, generational grumbling has always been a thing, it's just the social media amplifies everything. And to your point about 90s rappers, yep social media is about engagement so the engagement farmers just roll with what gets most engagement, so 5000 threads about tupac,jayz,biggie,nas.
100% spot on! I think cassette dubs are the unsung hero of hip hop! I got SO much music from my older cousin, it's how I built my library before I could afford to buy music.
Thank you because as I was watching this I felt that he was missing the mark about how music was spread back in the day even before CDs and I came to make a comment about it but no need you explained that part wonderfully.
47-year-old black woman in America here…Big conscious rap fan. Back in the ‘90s I was told my musical preferences were alternative. That said, loved, loved, loved Common, the Roots, OutKast, the Neptunes, LL, Digable Planets, Arrested Development, Black Star (Mos and Talib’s solo projects, as well).I also claim Lupe, and my OG favorite: Pete Rock & CL Smooth. And my guilty pleasure that I don’t usually admit to…MC Brains. Special shout out to Oaktown 3.5.7…and who am I liking now, ladies first: Doechii and Leikeli47; and the usual suspects: Kendrick, J. Cole. Also, didn’t feel it needed mentioning, but obviously, Ñas.
I'm an oldhead and the impact of the crack era totally and completely changed the message and energy of hip hop. Also, "the meeting" that took place in the early 90s with music execs was a real thing and shaped who got heard and who didn't.
@@_mirendal_ A conspiracy theory that heads of labels (and possibly prison executives I can't recal) met and decided to push the NWAs of this world and push aside the Tribes and De La Souls of this world.
@@_mirendal_yep, as the poster above me mentioned, it was a meeting of what hip hop was to be. It's basically seen as a nefarious, 5th column illuminati type meeting.
I have a vague recollection of "the meeting" but I feel y'all give labels and execs too much power to remove personal responsibility from the people. Execs aren't taste makers, they just want to make money. And the way to make money is to sell people what they want. They didn't "change" anything. Rather more accurately was they put more money and focus into certain aspects of hip hop that was more profitable. It's not some evil thing.
The difference between underground culture between then and now is that it used to be a localized, in-person lifestyle and event based thing you had to actively participate in, or know someone within willing to share it with you, whereas now it's just clicking the right link, getting the right algorithmic response, or searching the right term.
For the hardcore scene, finding channels like Hate5six that records small bands all over the states has been an amazing gift for someone like me who isn't tapped into that genre yet. Yeah the underground isn't what I supposed it used to be
In my experience, early hip hop fans did have a problem with 90s hip hop. My elders would always have something negative to say about the music I listened to growing up. Calling it violent and more raunchy and lacking the five elements, over commercialization, etc.
My uncle used to say the same. But he still listened to Wu lol. The issue for me its no so much violent lyrics or even raunchy lyrics. Its hows its presented. Is it presented like The Godfather or Mean Streets....artistically? Or is it presented like The Expendables.
sucks to have ppl you know killed over crack and then see little kids bumping music made by slightly older kids telling everybody how rich and powerful they got from selling crack. that’s not dope that’s actually fucked
Old head here. I'm in my mid 40s and you are right, Rakim changed everything, at least from my mainstream, white suburban perspective at that time. I'm sure badass-itude was always respected in the underground, but from my perspective there were a lot of novelty tunes---like Fat Boys rapping about how they were looking for food, Heavy D rapping about being chunky but funky, Kurtis Blow rapping about his phone bill being too high because hey, that's the breaks, etc. Rappers like Rakim and Kool Moe Dee hit the scene and, I gotta tell you, I don't know what it was for me at the time, but it just felt correct. "I Ain't No Joke" came out and things just changed, and they changed forever. This was the new hyper-masculine cool in hip hop, and it kind of still is. If there's anything I miss from the 80s and 90s, and even the 00s, it's the groups of next level rappers getting together and tearing it up. Geto Boys. A Tribe Called Quest. Arrested Development. Jurassic 5. Blackalicious. The Pharcyde. That last one, good God. I've listened to Bizarre Ride II more times than any other hip hop album. Sorry, old habits die hard. The one thing hip hop never discarded, though, was socially conscious rap. The kind of hip hop Public Enemy and Rage Against the Machine made are still in the rotation, but now I put it alongside rappers like King Los and Kendrick Lamar in 2024. As far as explicitly LGBT rap goes, I gotta be honest, I didn't hear any of it until Cakes da Killa in the early 2010s, but that's likely because I was out of the loop. Love his music regardless of my general cluelessness as a straight white cis male. Also, just one more note from an old head, I'm also really happy with the direction rap has gone in in the Spanish language. I'm really into artists like Snow Tha Product, Bad Bunny, and Santa Fe Klan. The fact that rap spread to so many other cultures outside of the one that birthed it is a testament to its power. Speaking of which, you are right about white people in rap in the 80s and 90s. The Beastie Boys are foundational in that regard, but if you look at their history they were going to shows and hanging with the great MCs that were around at that time. Yeah, they were still a punk and hardcore band, sure, but a LOT of the rap they were listening to found its way into their music, and absolutely no one questioned it, at least at that time.
I think the class gap in content/lyrics is the biggest difference from our era and this one now. Rakim could wear a gold chain and rap about getting paid in full, but showed tons of community and class solidarity. Even if today’s rappers tried to show the same solidarity, it would come across hollow with their constant wealth brags n shit. And i know there were plenty of rappers who were like that to some degree back in the day, but they were usually rejected. Shit-talked by the best rappers on the regular.
I'm 27 and Rakim is in my top 3 for all the reasons he's not recognized as much. In 06 when saints row came out I was 11 I thought I ain't No Joke was newer than what it was. His lyricism really did flip the game from the early dance era n set the stage for the 90s
Does not being a fan of billy woods really count as being antagonistic to young rap fans? Cause i learned about billy woods (and came to love his music) from dead end hip hop, who are all old hip hop fans lol.
@@paultapping9510Im a younger rap fan and most of my circle heavily fucks with Earl, and Mike as well in that realm, but Im the only one thats really pushed into Billy Woods as much. Hes my favorite rn but his sound is maybe a little harder to parse for most of us Gen Z rap fans
If it makes you feel any better, the term "Crash out" comes from Charleston White, who is an old head. The youngsters got it from an old head, so use it all you want.
As a fellow old head from 83 and with a little more distance from the epicenter being from Amsterdam you forget to mention the importance of the magazines such as the Source. They really helped spread hip hop in a broader sense as a culture. In the late nineties early 2000s they even started to branch out and shed Light on local scenes in France, Germany etc. This was all pre internet/dial up internet era so printed media had way more influence and every edition was like a valuable keepsake you read from beginning to end and back again
This Older Head really enjoyed and shared this video with my Gen-Z son who walks around the house listening to 80’s and 90’s a Hip Hop. He says he’s not into the new stuff and his former DJ dad and me, who grew up in the South Bronx in the 70’s and 80’ are enjoying sharing music and listening to my son’s hot takes. It’s the best kind of family bonding ❤ Thanks 🙏🏽
"How did you discover underground music?" - Honestly, Amazon was a huge gamechanger for me, when they added those 30 second preview (prelisten?) clips of songs, circa 1999 or so.
Here's another Rakim comparison: Benjamin Franklin is the American da Vinci and will be remembered for his versatility and output even if better inventions and better writing and such has happened since. He's historically remembered as part of the foundation and his status resonates for decades. Rakim is the founding father who was the first mc you'd really need to listen to. Foundational and resonant.
Busta Rhymes was another rapper that changed the game because his style was so unique. Keith Murray was a great rapper that neevr made it due to the heavy competition at the time.
YOOOOOOO I honestly didn’t expect you to include my question in the video! Glad you liked it and thanks for answering. Gonna go check out the people you mentioned rn
I appreciate this conversation. More of it, please. My oldheadness still harkens back to the classic day of September 29, 1998. One of my favorite Tuesdays ever.
Love you FD! I disagree with so many of your hip hop takes, but it’s always in good fun and the discussion is always really interesting Edit: Billy woods is my second favorite rapper I can’t believe you’d say such terrible things
FD Signifier, much love and respect to you man. I completely agree with you, I'm 22 and I feel like an old head in terms of hip-hop and my general music takes. I love Rakim, Pac, Nas, OutKast, Mos Def, Black Thought, Jay-Z, Old Kanye and Kendrick Lamar. It hurts my heart that some of the younfer generation think older hip-hop is trash, wack or they just don't understand it. Your not alone FD, I wish i had friends who were as passionate and enthusiastic about hip-hop music.
I smiled so hard when you were talking about t rock. I want through a hard threesix/project Pat phase in college and stumbled upon his music then. He’s got some classics and definitely deserve more recognition
Thank you so much for awnsering my question. And this video was very very interresting. I find it fascinating how one genre can evolve so much and jet have so many consistant ellements.
One thing I do miss about music before streaming is that, if you connected to a song(s) you heard on the radio or on a (physical) mixtape or burned onto a CD, you would go out and buy the album and listen to the song(s) in the context of the album. I cannot tell you how many songs are slept on because people are only streaming the one or two songs they know. As someone who is deeply invested in music, I always try to encourage people to listen to the album a song they enjoy comes from because you never know what musical gems are on there.
i do that!! i find songs thru my yt music algorithm and often go to buy the cd so i can really appreciate the entire album. when i'm driving i don't like to have to get distracted so the cd forces me to listen to the entire thing and most of the time i end up loving most of the album :D
In the 1980s my very white probation officer auntie, took my 14 year old also very white, very nerdy brother to the Too Short/ NWA... ect concert in NEW ORLEANS. That's how new rap and hip hop was in the culture. BTW they both remember it FONDLY. FYI The 90s was the best because that's when UGK got known. In my opinion.
Does not being a fan of billy woods really count as being antagonistic to young rap fans? Cause i learned about billy woods (and came to _love_ his music) from dead end hip hop, who are all old hip hop fans lol
I think he js assumed him to be younger because he's associated more with the newer wave of underground hiphop (i.e earl, ka, mike, pink siifu, jpegmafia etc.) than the period he started in
Slightly older head and certified 70s-90s hip-hop geek here. Solid video. I just wanted to add, while not widely known or mainstream, there was a mid to late 90s queer or "homo-hop" movement out here in the Bay. I remember groups like Rainbow Flava and Deep Dickollective making a little noise around that time. Oddly enough, I think the first openly gay artist associate with hop was 1980s electro-pop producer Man Parrish 😂
Listen Fu-Gee-La was bumpin’ Spring ‘96 in NYC. If you had an open window you could listen to the whole song just from cars driving by. KRS One needs to be mentioned more IMO when talking about conscious rap. Anyone looking to listen to what it was like back in the day, we are fortunate to have so many resources. The Rocksteady Anniversary jams, dozens of Summer Jam recordings are out there, even a few grainy videos of house parties if you dig a bit.
This is crazy, talking down on 2022. I was just thinking the other day about how 2022 legit might be the best year in hiphop, of my life. the forever story, melt my eyez, Mr.morale, kings disease 3, aethiopes, no thank you, god don't make mistakes, backxwash 3rd album, it's almost dry, drill music in Zion, Cheat Codes. 2022 is a glorious year in hiphop.
I’m not even super into hip hop. Not any more than your average American. But I’m a big fan of you and your brain and so now I’m learning about hip hop just cause I like hearing you talk.
Interesting insight into those days. I love albums too and the effort put into them makes them so satisfying to experience after saving up to buy them.
This is so good. I’m 47 & been listening to Hip Hop since 82-84. My co-workers and I tried to come up with a top 50. The age range 24-47. Lordee. We all learned a lot and I had to wrap the project up because it was a lot of suffering on both sides. 😂 Collectively, Rakim didn’t make too 25 - which is when I gave up - BUT I see what you’re saying about how this Gen receive Rakim by telephone. They don’t know, but we’re out here trying to teach. Appreciate this youtube and will be tuning in!
i heard a story that Elton John once walked into a record store in some random part of the midwest and asked if they had any Tech N9ne albums (When they said they didn't, he ended up buying all of their Scritti Politti records instead lmao)
You really could do one of these a month or something. keep em coming! As a Zillenial i’m at that intersection that sees both sides and i love hearing this kind of content!
In Living Color and Arsenio were monumental in promoting hip hop to rural America. Bless Wayans and Hall for this contribution cuz learned of so much music, I was already a fan of the culture but featuring new music really expanded the reach of the genre to middle America
7:30 I couldn't agree more about new rap not being any more offensive than older stuff. Black Sheep released U Mean I'm Not in 1991. I've since read that its lyrics were intended as parody, but it's so over the top it surpasses Frank Zappa territory.
I can tell you once were a teacher big homie because u force me to think about shit even when I don’t agree with u it still makes me at least question my thoughts man keep doing what u are doing Bro 💯💯❤️
Talking about the grimy rap (and regional/local rap) from back in the day- I think your brain was trying to refer to Kilo Ali's 'Love in ya mouth'- early Dungeon Family rapper that anyone who was in the skating rinks in Atlanta in the late 90's early 00's knows that song.
Love your videos in general but the hip hop focused ones are *chefs kiss.* Props to the person who brought up the Gatekeeper question. Definitely gonna check out T-Rock--that little sample you included sounded insanely good!
billy woods has been rapping in NY since the 90's around the same time as Aesop Rock and MF DOOM They're all around the same age, this is a terrible take you clearly skimmed through a few songs for a genuinely special Rapper who has more classics than Kendrick. billy woods dropped some of the best conscious rap in the 2000's this take not taking uncle.
Tupac had the most impactful verses. Twista is the best technical rapper? Remember him? Underrated. Biggie had the best party songs. Dre had the best beats. Nas was inconsistent. Eminem is and always was mid. Drake is popstar poser. Jayz is wack. Diddy couldnot rap at all. Ice cube, the roots, public enemy and nwa were the most conscious
I wouldn’t hold being inconsistent against nas. Just cut his vision didn’t hit all the time that doesn’t downgrade the greatness of the artistry in his hits that he is widely lauded and praised for.
This is one of the reasons i like you so much. You are older, BUT not a hypocrite. There's no unjustified "oh back in my day X was better". Anyway, thanks for the takes as always!
I’ve been really looking for a good hip hop commentary channel that also knows about fighting games and pro wrestling, so I’m glad this video appeared when it did!
idk if this thing is gonna do as well as some other stuff you do on this channel, I just wanted to say I still appreciate it a lot and would come back for more
I really enjoyed this type of discussion especially as someone who grew up on latin america hip hop, listening to rap in general helped me develop a more understanding of the culture here in the US.
“How did I discover underground music?” Walking through Crown Heights, hanging in Prospect Park, on the subway, and sharing music with friends. Also the dude that had that kiosk in the Canal Street A/C station that has recorded house party cassettes and club performances.
