"Why fight? Just fall onto the Host of the Valar" is so funny to me, I don't know why ^^ Imagine all the might of the Maiar, Vanyar etc. finding themselves in the shadow suddenly, and from the heights the bellowing voice of Ancalagon yelling "BELLY FLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP!!!"
I nearly cut that part out as well haha as well as the part about Tokyo . I found it weird to discuss Tokyo in a Tolkien video but I'm glad I left it in!
@@TheRedBook Imagine sending a letter to Tolkien asking how he would translate "belly flop" in his languages... and receiving as an answer an essay so detailed it makes you read the books in a completely new light 😅
His size doesn't matter so much as his mass. To have enough mass to level a mountain just by falling on it he'd need an enormous amount of it. But to be that heavy he'd need truly colossal wings in order to fly. Either that or he was just somewhat larger than any other dragon and Ëarendil yeeted him with enough velocity to mimic a meteor impact.
@retsaM innavoiG Mass and size are virtually the same no...there not even close to the same a jellyfish has little mass for its size and lord of the rings has creatures that break the laws of physics elfs biologically cant exist in the real world nore could shelob or god forbid ungoliant
@retsaM innavoiG pretty sure mass and size are very different. Like a red super giant star can have less mass than the sun. And Jupiter of it was 30x more massive (not bigger) it would become a sun. Like a black hole is super small but weights millions of tones, so mass and size are linked in certain ways but they are not the same.
Thangorodrim are not mountains or volcanoes. They are towers built from centuries of slag ejected from Morgoths forges. Maybe hundreds of feet tall, but narrower
@@johns1625They were volcanos in the same way mount doom is a volcano, technically it's a forge of terrible evil power. The book says the three peaks of thangorodrim and are considered mountains in themselves which is at least 1000 feet. On the low I would say one kilometer and up to a couple miles in wingspan.
To me I always imagined a little side quest to go inside this massive beast because I don't see any practical way you can kill it from the outside without having a sword that is 50 feet long or bigger. He may have had something like that attached to his ship but it would have to be a perfect hit the first time and the idea of this Jonah and the whale tactic makes more logical sense.
I always thought Ancalagon was an underdeveloped character. Given how powerful he was in driving back the host of the Valar, I would have liked to have heard more about him and his potential. His one and only appearance ending in defeat felt underwhelming, like the payoff to a setup we never got
I agree. He was the last ditch resistance so he was the surprise but it would have been interesting if he had appeared early and committed some evil acts, like Glaurung.
@@TheRedBook All of Tolkein's "horrible beasts" seem to die rather easily honestly. I always found that disappointing in the books. Even a dragon the size of smaug would easily shake off arrows that a human bowman could launch. Gem armour or not. A creature that size just isn't going to be that frail. Turin kills Glaurung with a simple sword stab as well which is literally hilarious. It would be like a sewing needle killing a human out right. Nearly impossible yet they all die this way. I would have liked to see the heroic deeds actually be a bit more heroic personally.
@@MrBottlecapBill I think the black sword of Turin had the magic to kill anything it cut i also think it was a very big and long sword so if he hit it in the heart it would die.Bards arrow was also special extra long and big and mayby magical.
@@MrBottlecapBill Not true at all. Gandalf’s fight with the balrog literally lasted days and so did Earendil’s with Ancalagon. Only reason Glaurung went down as easily as he did was because Turin sneak attacked him in his weak spot.
Discussions about such things always bother me. I thought it was a good topic to cover. I'm going to cover all this talk of "power" at some point as well. Who would win hypotheticals and all that nonsense!
0:54 This is some of the most epic fan art I have ever seen in my life. Ancalagon was probably a heck of a lot smaller than that, but for real...talk about a dramatic entrance right there! 🪦🌹RIP Ancalagon. You might have been evil and we might not have known you for very long, but still, you were an icon.
I would say that Ancalagon could be large enough to crush the mountains and still be hideable for Morgoth. I mean he has all of the lands north of his base Angband for him to hide the massive dragon from the Valar and others. Also, Ancalagon's being of such massive size would explain Morgoth's confidence in him to turn the tide of battle.
Don't get me wrong, I still think he was massive, and his release was certainly that last effort from Melkor. I'm happy with people thinking he was even larger than large. I suppose the video is mostly just my opinion on it.
@@blackwolf4653 I don't think Ghidorah was far off the same length as smaug, though I could be wrong 😁 I've always taken the 'destroying three mountains' literally and love thinking of an absolute incomprehensible behemoth
Decided to upload a video scheduled for next week a bit early. Videos haven't really been doing well at all, so I will be evaluating what I want to do next with the channel. This video was sitting ready, so let's call it a bonus video for today. Enjoy!
Good morning! If you do leave the channel, my suggestion is to make a video dedicated to leaving, so that others who follow know what happened. I truly appreciate your videos, thanks for sharing.
Maybe you could promote them more? Drop the links into Tolkien and popular culture facebook groups, newsgroups, instagram etc? You should definately have more subscribers than you do.
Personally, I think your videos are unique, enjoyable and educational. You use all the published material to back up your points. You respond to our questions and requests. I don't know why more Tolkien fans aren't being directed to your channel. I found it by scrolling way, way down, when searching RU-vid for Tolkien content. The title attracted my attention. Once I saw that video, I was hooked. I don't know if RU-vid is expecting you to give them a lot of money before bringing your channel up higher on the list of Tolkien content videos or not. Have you tried to get support from the other Tolkien channels? I saw you on Helen's channel, I am sure she is promoting your channel, but Matt (Nerd of the Rings) and Yoystan (Men of the West) have links to other Tolkien channels on their RU-vid home pages. Maybe they could add yours.
This channel deserves way more views. Your videos always leave me with some new and interesting perspectives to think about. You provide such a uniquely thorough analysis on every topic, it makes the other lore channels seem shallow.
@@Jesserd95 - Shallow content is one of the reasons I started. I really wanted to offer perspectives as you said, so I am happy you have experienced that!
I always think of Ancalagon’s destruction of the peaks of Thangorodrim to be like the impact of a comet or meteor. The blast crater is much, much larger than the size of the rock that fell from space. I assume Earendil’s battle with Ancalagon was at a pretty high altitude. Earendil was basically coming in from “outer space”, when he fought with Ancalagon. None of the battles worth recording in Middle Earth were short affairs. The War of Wrath lasted over 40 years. The battle of the Hosts of the Valar and Ancalagon and the winged dragons probably wasn’t over in a day. There was probably plenty of time for Earendil and Ancalagon to go higher and higher before Ancalagon was defeated.
@@theenjeneer2792 Honestly movie Smaug is way too big. There's a painting by Tolkien himself of Bilbo parlaying with Smaug, we can estimate his size from that.
The parallell to Tor battling Jormungand is very obvious a nod to what Silmarilion is supposed to be. With Silmarilion Tolkien wanted to write a mythology more than just a fantasy novel. With all these unrealistic, illogical scenarios, I thinkt he did a great job on that matter!
He would also be incredibly heavy, so a lot of weight landing on something from a great height which would have generated a lot of speed, would have caused a massive amount of destruction.
I feel that during discussing this topic people always forget about the fact that when object falls it increases it's strength when colliding. And we can't miss the another fact that Thangorodrim was a mountain spitting fire (volcano) so the fall would cause disturbances which would cause the fires to destroy Angband
The whole idea that he has to be the size of that which he destroys has always baffled me and I see it pop up in arguments related to him all the time. As someone in another comment said, look at the destruction a plane can achieve when it crashes to the earth.
Although Tolkien was clear that he didn't want his stories seen as metaphors for the real world he clearly liked using metaphors in his descriptions. I think when he says something was 'big as a mountain' he was unlikely to have intended that he be taken literally. Read the passage in The Hobbit dealing with the thunderstorm and the 'giants' and decide if he means there were literal huge monsters tossing boulders around or if he was describing a force of nature. And of course a dragon that big could never have flown under it's own (or likely any other) power. But regarding the 'three mountain peaks' being 'destroyed' by the falling super dragon, I think it is salient to remember that they weren't actual mountains they were artificial mounds (although doubtless huge) formed by the mining and assorted industry of the underground fortress.
Agreed! After all, the 2 towers of NYC were brought down by a single airplane each. A heavy and forcefully shot cannonball can break down castle walls. It’s been said that a single penny dropped from a mile(?or something) up could bash in a skull. And as you said, those were mountains CONSTRUCTED of slag and ash….the arguments of being bigger than Angband itself or Tokyo! are ridiculous. *What I’d really like to KNOW: just HOW did Eärendil slay him?* All I recall (without looking) is that “he smote him”… not so helpful. [edit add] new subscriber Today! Came from Quora. Keep it up, you are getting there 😀
@@conniestone6251 - How Eärendil slayed him is a mystery but adds to that mythological and legendary feel. Tolkien rarely goes into such specific details when it comes to battles. I think it's good that we are left to our own imagination about how it was possible and perhaps marvel at how it was accomplished. Maybe any description Tolkien gave wouldn't be as good as our own imagination?
Weren’t the mountains called Thangorodrim essentially massive slag-heaps ? If so, that might have made them easier to destroy than if they had been proper mountains 🤭
I hope this channel takes off! Has such a different aesthetic and tone to a lot of other Tolkien channels and also questions some things we take for granted.
I hesitated to watch this episode as I didn’t care about the subject. But … like all of these videos i was enchanted by the take on the subject and how the narrator finalized his conclusions, which were unexpected and illuminating
Nice to hear from you again. I do understand videos like these may seem less interesting, how big is a Dragon? I suppose I could have called it something like "Do people overestimate" or something that points out that its a response to people's claims. I'm glad you enjoyed it though. It seems a lot of people still believe he is as big as a mountain... So maybe I failed 😅
I imagine that ancalagon is supposed to be a last vestige of Morgoth’s power, so he’d have to be a terrifying force to push back the elder and maiar I believe that ancalagon was enormous enough to be seen from very far away. I imagine him as being larger than king ghidorah, which would make him a powerful match for the maiar, the Eagles and Earendil. It makes him massive without making him incomprehensible
Ancalagon is one of those things where he's definitely larger than those downplaying him, but smaller than the ones who assume he's covering Mt. Everest. Mountains can be quite small compared to what you immediately imagine as some extensive range of them. So I do imagine that he was big enough to fall and break most of the mountain near Angband, but that said mountain was not a whole range of them, like the ones behind Minas Tirith. It also may have been only referencing him in comparison to one single part of the mountain range of the north, being the volcano(s) directly adjacent to Angband's area, which also kind of helps the argument. Volcanoes can be quite small but still considered mountainous. So, while definitive size is hard to pin down, I do believe he was at least large enough to be comparable to a small mountain, even if it's one of the semi artificial ones that Morgoth made behind Angband.
People seem to think Thangorodrim are three volcanoes, as in natural volcanoes like Mt. Doom, but it says they are chutes from ejecting slag and fumes from the forges deep inside Angband, built up over centuries and centuries, I take that to mean slag from smelting iron, so that would make them probably pretty narrow and tall. And I imagine him sending Orcs to reinforce them or partially build with stone or steel to make them larger and taller, and to direct their growth upward to be more horrific as you see them crossing Anfauglith. Not like mountains or anything. So when Ancalagon breaks the "towers of Thangorodrim" I believe they are probably maybe 500 feet tall each and close together, and he hit it at an angle during flight.
I disagree that Ancalogon could not be as exaggeration. 1) We do not see the elves as being prone to exageration. Further, there were many still in Middle Earth that would have remembered him and whom all such legend could have been sourced. Among these would have been Elrond, Gandalf, Celeborn, Cirdan, and Galadriel. 2) Considering that Bilbo would have had access to at least two or more of these sources, I believe it safe to say that he had the story from eyewitnesses. 3) The destruction of Lake Town, which is built on would pylons in the middle of a great lake, Smaug was still described as being very sizable. I would say at the very least the size of a large aircraft carrier. If that was simply Smaug, it would not be impossible to see Ancalogon as being substantially larger by several orders of magnitude. 4) The war against Morgoth fundamentally reshaped the very Earth itself sinking and raising tens of thousands of square miles of land. The only greater catastrophe to strike Middle Earth was the reshaping of the earth by Eru at the fall of Numenor. 5) The coming of Ancalogon drove back the combined forces of the Valar, and that included all the Valar themselves. 6) The Mariner was not alone in this fight. He was in possession of a silmaril, the presence of which Ancalogon would have found agonizing, and was assisted by all of the great birds in a conflict that lasted a period of hours with the contest being decidedly in doubt. For these reasons and a few others of lesser importance I have no trouble believing that Ancalagon was easily as great and nasty as described, especially as Glaurong wrought so much damage before His destruction and he is implied to not have been near the size of Ancalogon.
That's cool. I know a lot of people like the idea of Ancalagon being so enormous. I think he was certainly big but not as big as much of the artwork depicts. Just a point though for your (5) - There's no indication that the Valar themselves took part in the actual war. Why would Eonwe lead the Host of the Valar if the Valar themselves were there? Also for (4) - figures left Angband after the destruction of Thangorodrim. It was the war itself that caused the destruction, not just the destruction of Thangorodrim.
@@TheRedBook, as to point 4, I quite agree. However my point, perhaps not as well expressed as I might desire, was that if we accept that 45 years of war so altered the landscape, it is not unlikely that Ancalagon, grown over the course of several hundred years by Melkor himself, might have been as big as some of us imagine. I do believe that picturing Ancalagon as being 30-50 miles in size is overstating things a bit, I have no problem believing that he was a minimum of 15-20. One does not destroy the towers of Thangorodrim by being the size of a city block. 😀
@@jayt9608 - Of course! I have no problem with people imagining that themselves and I can certainly understand the reasons. I just don't share them myself. This is why in the video I don't definitively say I am right in my own estimations and I leave it up to others to imagine how they will :)
I have no problem imagining him being ridiculous size. It's fantasy fiction, and this battle caused massive destruction and flooding over a vast continental size. I would say half the size of typical 3,000 AGL mountain. Maybe a bit smaller... but not by much. Basically, the height and or length of an US Nimitz class aircraft carrier or greater. A small airport general aviation airport runway length of 3,000 feet. Height of about 500 ft. Something to that scale... something horrifying. The exact height would be to the edge of being cartoony. Physics needs to seem legit for the size to a degree. So you have to also imagine it being able to fly. Something akin to seeing a C5 Galaxy up close taking off or landing for the first time. Or even a large rocket or Space Shuttle Launch. They're so large and so much noise... it's at first difficult to believe the things can fly... the C5 the size of a high rise building on its side. The shuttles sheer noise something that is nearly indescribable. So it has to be a double take... but not a double take that makes you laugh and think... cartoon!
@@jmitterii2, the great fat bumblebee flies, though physics says it should not. I doubt Ancalagon would be cartoonish. Further, lizards and snakes can easily fit in very tight spaces, and cave systems can be quite...roomy. I imagine that no matter his size, Morgoth made certain that Ancalagon had plenty of room to move and exercise.
Two videos in one day! Sweet! I have always envisioned Ancalagon going through Morgoth's dump like Superman and Zod go through rebar, concrete, and glass. What I want to know is why someone (lookin' at you, Sauron) didn't recommend balrogs on dragon back? Even if Elrond's dad comes and ruins your day in his magic boat, you still go out looking super cool, breathing fire and tossing fireballs and shade at the Children and the Ainur at the same time.
@@TheRedBook Well that sounds more like Sauron doing his job. Hmm, now I wonder if Sauron was even around for the release of the winged dragons in the War of Wrath. Maybe he had already pseudo-surrendered or was slinking out of one of Angband's emergency tunnels. Another though just occurred to me. Are we led to believe that those tunnels go all the way south to Khazad-Dum? I guess that's how you end up with three, taller than Mt. Everest, size piles of dirt and rock. Durin's folk were already there prior to the War of Wrath so Durin's Bane didn't sneak in for a nap. He had to come up after the dwarves, "delved too deep."
I like to imagine him as colossal anyway, just makes things more epic inside my mind, its the same with balrogs and wings, they just look cooler with they.
Nothing wrong with that. Funnily enough, since your name is DS related. I like to imagine several of the bosses you fight in those games aren't actually as massive (especially the humanoid ones) but they are imagined that way for the sake of the story telling and gameplay - and it works. Ancalagon may have been far smaller but the tale of the legend makes him bigger.
@@TheRedBook It's weird that creatures like the gaping dragon are bigger than actual dragons in Dark Souls, that is why i always imagine that the Dragons are bigger.
Speaking of dragons, is there anything in the Legendarium that explains why it is always mortal men who kills dragons? I never heard of an elf who manages this same feat (closest perhaps is Earendil, but at the time he fought Ancalagon the Black, he has not yet chosen to be counted as the Firstborn, and therefore you can say he was still mortal and of Men then, with the others being Turin with Glaurung and Bard the Bowman with Smaug).
Good question - Earendil had made his choice by then - he made the choice before making his plea to the Valar which then led to the War of Wrath where he fought Ancalagon. I don't actually have an answer as to why - the classic knight vs dragon tale from the stories of old? Elves being more involved with the likes of Balrogs? More elevated spiritual beings instead of beasts? I'll have to have a think on this. Dwarves, of course, had dealings with Dragons too.
@@TheRedBook Oh yeah, he did! Sorry about that, got the timeline all messed up 😅 I also thought about elves and Balrogs, as you said, likewise there are no other Balrog killers than elves. Maybe it's just as simple of a reason that a match up between two equally-'tiered' (using the term loosely here lol) beings isn't as amazing as someone from a 'low-tier class' (really for a lack of better term lol) defeating a higher one. But regardless, if you have anything other than that, I would still be interested to know!
I am amongst those that believe that Ancalagon was fantastically large. Yes, he doesn't have to be as big as the peaks of Thangorodrim to break them, but, that also means that he could be too; plus, Morgoths power over the land is astronomical. He could break mountains, destroy valleys, created the underworld of Utumno, so making a pit large enough to hide a dragon like Ancalagon really isn't as impossible as one would think. But still,there's one aspect that gives me pause. His and his flock of dragons came forth amongst a Tempest of fire and lightning and drove back the hosts of the west. Now, this is a key factor here. If Ancalagon was as big as, say, movie Smaug, then surely those such as Eonwe or even some of the Valar like Tulkas, Orome, or Ulmo (who I seriously doubt would sit out this fight) would rise up to challenge the dragon. The onslaught was so great that it forced an army of superhuman warriors, angels, and gods to retreat. It would be much more plausible to believe that a dragon the size of a large state would pull this off. Now yes, by that same logic Earindel would be small in comparison. But let's not forget the tools he had with him. A ship hollowed out and blessed by the Valar to travel amongst the stars, which would likely mean that he could travel at faster than light speed and probably ram with the force of a comet. A gem with the combined light and power of 2 trees that lit up all of existence, the golden one that creates a sun with its fruit, and a silver one who's branch could make the moon and who's dew could create stars. Alongside a "myriad" of giant eagles (which is about ten thousand give or take) with power in their own right. It is equated to Sam, a hobbit with the light of a star defeating Shelob who could eat things many times greater than a hobbit. So yes, to me Ancalagon is the largest dragon in all of Arda and by a massive margin. Congrats to you if you made it to the end!
Hi, I like your Logic, but must place a question. "and drove back the hosts of the west" = by hosts of the West is probably don´t meant all that fought against Morgoth in that fight. Not Earendil and probably not Eonwe, Tulkas, Orome and Ulmo. Ancalagons size and effectiveness of his intimidation is not necessary linked if we can´t tell for sure who is meant by hosts of the West. How could we be sure who is meant by hosts of the West, thats my question.
Well if he's a vestige of Morgoth, he could essentially 'feed' on fear and sorrow. Nothing stating he couldn't get rather large after a while. Miles? Probably not. But his wing span being about a mile or so? That could be more doable. That's still BLOODY MASSIVE, but not too incomprehensible. Keeping in mind that puts his size at toughly 2x the size of King Giddorah, Ancalagon is definitely more 'natural disaster' than 'killable foe'.
So to me, Ancalagon has always been stupidly massive but not 56 miles across like what you mentioned. I think of him like Drogon or Balerion from the Game of Thrones series but at least twice the size of Balerion. In my opinion, the actual "Original Evil" god Morgoth creating such an absolutely stupidly large creature to try and fight against his foes in a last-ditch attempt is perfect. It's to the point where I'm ok with Ancalagon being a couple miles across but not more than 20, as you say he HAD to at least be able to crawl out of Angband before attacking AND live inside a gigantic cave underground for possibly hundreds or even thousands of years before he leaves the caves and is immediately bombarded by all the extra stimuli (possibly part of Morgoth's plan was to just set a bunch of dragons loose, I don't think he was really thinking too hard about it by the time the Valar Host showed up)
I would not discount the possibility of Ancalagon being absurdly big. The World Serpent isn't the only absurdly sized creature in mythology. Typhon, the greatest monster in Greek mythology was so tall that his head literally touched the sky. This would make him around 40,000 feet tall. Godzilla has nothing on this guy! He was conceived when Gaia mated with the Greek version of the devil. It took Zeus 10,000 years of spamming thunderbolts to bring him down.
Another thought to consider...perhaps, in some way similar to the destruction of the Ring, at the end of the First Age Morgoth had poured so much of his remaining power into his winged dragons (Ancalagon being the mightiest of all) that with his fall, the towers of Thangorodrim broke in a way similar to the towers and mountains of Mordor: "...A brief vision he had of swirling cloud, and in the midst of it towers and battlements, tall as hills, founded upon a mighty mountain-throne above immeasurable pits; great courts and dungeons, eyeless prisons sheer as cliffs, and gaping gates of steel and adamant: and then all passed. Towers fell and mountains slid; walls crumbled and melted, crashing down; vast spires of smoke and spouting steams went billowing up, up until they toppled like an overwhelming wave, its wild crest curled and came foaming down upon the land. And then at last over the miles between there came a rumble, rising to a deafening crash and roar; the earth shook, the plain heaved and cracked, and Orodruin reeled. Fire belched from its riven summit. The skies burst into thunder seared with lightning. Down like lashing whips fell a torrent of black rain. And into the heart of the storm, with a cry that pierced all other sounds, tearing the clouds asunder, the Nazgul came, shooting like flaming bolts, as caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled, withered, and went out." You could almost imagine this description fitting the fall of Ancalagon and Thangorodrim.
I feel that people forget that force equals mass times acceleration. I wonder if the same people who perceive Ancalagon the the size of the mountain also think that Meteor Crater was created by a .7 mile wide meteor.
I do not doubt that the description of Ancalagon was legendary (Exaggerated to illustrate the heroism of killing him). But realistically, Ancalagon's actual size was probably about the same as what we used to call a brontosaurus. This is of course just fantasy & we have no way of knowing what JRRT had in mind, but it is fun to speculate.
I have no problem with the wild speculation really. If people want to imagine Ancalagon with its head in the clouds then they can have fun with that. I guess this was more about how I approach reading these tales over telling people how they should - which is never the intention.
I think most of the destruction of the peaks is from the power that made Ancalagon so powerful was released, in essence think about a living bomb. Ancalagon had elemental fire within him of such power that it could destroy almost anything. When he died it was most likely released in some form of explosion. A rather small bomb can destroy very large objects, now imagine a dragon between 3 and 8 times larger than Smaug with far, far more power and you get a good idea of just how bad the explosion of his elemental fire being released would do.
I always thought a better question than "how big was the dragon?" is instead to ask "why did the elves and men not expect some great evil to issue forth from the stronghold?" The Dark Lord had already shown his propensity to unleash dragons and beings of evil when battle turned ill for him as he had another battles, so why not expect that in this one?
Good spot. I triple check everything and still missed that! Was definitely meant to be Lord of Imladris. I suspect I deleted the of while I was trying to fit the text in then forgot to put it back. Good to know people are reading it though ;)
I do have a question about Balrogs, not their lack of wings. Do Balrogs have their own language? Or can they speak the common tongue? They're clearly greater than a mere beast, but we have nothing in the books indicating they can.
The Balrog is said to let out a terrible cry on the Bridge in The Fellowship of the Ring, indicating it at least isn't completely silent. Balrogs in the past have had positions of authority within Melkor's armies - pretty hard to do if they couldn't communicate - but this could have been through the "transmission of thought" and not verbal. There's also Melkor's language "Melkian" that Tolkien discusses. I think this is a good enough topic to cover in a video so I will add it to the list of Balrog related video ideas.
And here I thought depictions of Ancalagon that showed him being the size of a modern-day U.S. aircraft carrier were outlandish. The size of Tokyo? That's crazy. That make him him much larger than the asteroid that led to the extinction of the dinosaurs. Thanks for pointing out Ancalagon didn't need to be the size of the peaks of Thangorodrim to destroy them. After all, in combat we use smaller objects to destroy much larger ones all the time and Ancalagon's fall could have readily triggered eruptions that brought the peaks down. I also suspect that with Morgoth's role in their creation and his use of them for various activities of his that they may not have been as sturdy as your average volcano. Regarding the tale of the Midgard serpent, we don't know how bug the Norse believed Midgard to be. While I like the tales of Norse mythology, Tolkien's writings are vastly superior and more coherent.
The way we view the serpent in mythology is how I approach a lot of Tolkien's tales like this too. I've read the serpent being big enough for Thor to grapple with, other tales saying it circled the world. It all adds to this feeling of stories being shared rather than "These are the hard facts, the Midgard Serpent was actually 578 miles wide!"
@@TheRedBook I think it was more figurative than anything. Also on the norse mythology regards, we should never forget it was written by christians, so influenced by the writers. So that we can't actually read it has "genuine"
Considering that the battle was so huge and the host of Valinor so massive it sank an area of land the size of Greenland. I can’t imagine them being halted by anything less than a dragon that was literally miles from wingtip to wingtip. It’s fantasy. A dragon so huge he smashes the 3 tallest mountains in Middle Earth when he falls? Cool. Not gonna bother with the physics. There aren’t many dragons that don’t completely disobey the laws of aerodynamics their wings would be ridiculously huge.
I like to think that in order for the Dagor Dagoroth to occur that all of Morgoth’s minions join him in the void when they die. Maybe that’s where orca go as well, or at least the ones who die serving Morgoth of his servants like Sauron. Or maybe all their power floods back into Morgoth since he’s still alive but they’re bodies are destroyed and their essence given to him.
I think it might actually be that he was as colossal as the myths say, think of the end of the war, Beleriand, was completely destroyed, sunk beneath the sea never to rise again, is it not possible that when the Great beast was released his size was such that the the fortress was utterly damaged? Maybe he was so great in size that he could not be released throughout the war because of the destruction to the surface his release would cause and was only loosed when the need was so great and dire that the fortress was payment, to have such a great and terrible weapon at Morgoths disposal. Maybe his release was part of great damage that part of the world suffered. Just a thought.
Absolutely on point yet again! - Ancalagon was the largest, but the degree to which certain depictions have exaggerated his size are ridiculous. I think he was at best, the size of an Antonov An-225 Mriya jet, approx 85 metres with a similar bulk but a much greater wingspan- and imagine the damage something like that would do if it fell out of the sky. The I think that your channel has one of the the BEST legendarium related content on youtube, please keep them coming if possible, because there are some of us who crave sensible discussion and debate of the Tolkien's written text rather than picking over the pseudo Middle Earth myths inspired by Jackson's flawed revisionist works. Of course some channels will only ever appeal to those who think in terms of the movies and the nonsensical 'style over substance' approach that they took, but there's an audience that want a little more than lists of juvenile epic tropes. Please stay firm!
Thanks for the kind words about the content. I do have my opinions on other channels and the type of content that seems to appeal. I suppose my disappointment is that I thought after 20+ videos that some more people would be interested in this kind of thing, and they aren't. My disappointment doesn't mean I'm going to stop making videos. It's more about taking a step back and working out if there's something I could improve, or do differently, without subjecting myself to whoring the channel on social media for likes or changing the content to "What was so and so doing during this time?". Doing two videos a week has left me little time to do anything else as I work full time, and it's not caused the channel to grow at any accelerated rate. So, it's more about scaling back rather than quitting.
If we are going with Soviet technology, a better analogy would be the Tsar Bomba - something that would fit in the back of a box delivery truck had power enough to destroy a small mountain. While Ancalagon was certainly not nuclear powered, he did have a vast amount of Morgoth's original power in him, and if that was released by his dying it would do tremendous damage.
@@TheRedBook You are doing a great job! No need to change anything. Sooner or later the people who can differentiate high quality from less educated click bait videos will find your chanel, and they will stay.
@@andersgustafsson5533 Thanks, Anders. It seems to have happened in the last week with my last video. More views and subs (and negative comments) than I've had since starting. It's going well :)
Ancalagon was the largest of dragons in the same way that Alduin was larger than all other dragon in Skyrim. That is, noticeably larger, but not obscenely so.
To put Ancalagon in size perspective is difficult because, Tolkien was a master writer, he made his own mythology. Ancalagon destroyed a mountainrange when he fell but, Melkor is a god in Tolkien's story so, making a castle, keep or pit to hide him in is a possibility since Melkor's powers are nigh limitless.
with destroying the 3 peaks people assume he fell straight down and hit all 3 at once when he more likely crashed into them going forward which allows him to be MUCH small and more realistic to the story
True, like a high trajectory angle at a high velocity, carrying the great wyrm through with his inertia. Technically it doesn't even specify how much destruction was caused, other than they were visibly broken. It also doesn't specify all 3 either. He could have broke through the top of one and partially busted the upper side rim of the 2nd and not even touched the 3rd, and the colorful language Tolkien wrote in would still say he "broke the towers". Considering he also described the Balrog as having broken a mountain as well, but the thing was only 20-25ft tall. Much more likely he meant damage from the release of magic energy, but yes, crashing into them flying forward, especially if he were attempting a fast moving attack when he was slain, and continued his trajectory makes sense.
It could be also that Ancalagon is leading all the dragons, and all of them on flight darkened the sun. But since he was leading them, then he is mentioned directly to be tha one that has done so, as proof of his power and might, both personal and as a leader of a great force. Myths are complicated.
One point that no one ever considers is just because he broke the 3 peaks that does not mean he fell flat on them. Would be ridiculous to think he was stationary in the air then just fell straight on them. He was most likely flying and the angle in which he fell destroyed all the peaks. Like a shooting star, not a dropped rock. See what I mean. Very easy to see him crash through all the peaks at an angle.
Interesting. I agree with that assessment a bit. I doubt he is the size of the largest city on Earth but perhaps larger then any skyscraper in the modern age or small hill. Speaking of skyscrapers could have the tower of Barad-Dur been inspired by the Tower of Babel in Jubilees?
In terms of the symbolism, it certainly could be. . "Man-made" structures of that magnitude would symbolise rebellion. If structures made for good purpose were large (such as the lamps) then beings like Sauron and Morgoth would create massive structures in corruption of them. I know that some artists like John Howe took inspiration from this but I am unaware if it was in Tolkien's mind!
@@TheRedBook I can tell you one thing in the book of Jubilees it describes the Tower of Babel as really really huge in both width and in height made of some really strong bricks known as "wood-fired bricks" that were alot stronger then any mud bricks. It wasn't even finished and it would still tower above Barad-Dur in height. Now that is what I would call a super massive structure.
Fantastic video. I always figured that Eärendil charged towards Ancalagon with powers like something similar to a falling star. He fought Ancalagon before the coming of morning in the high sky and the star of Eärendil is the morning/evening star after all. And surely the immense light of the Silmaril would have burned the dragon. Then I always imagined Ancalagon falling to the earth with the power close to a meteorite or something along those lines, which wouldn't necessarily have to make him absurdly huge in order to do some real damage to the mountains. Just imagine the shock wave. But you can't really read into mythical tales like this, that was never the real point of the stories. Plus the fact that a meteorite... is a meteorite. From space. Ancalagon is not, it's a dragon. In the sky. Fighting a star. But the star is also a man. In a boat. Yeah trying to measure fantasy in a scientific language doesn't really work, does it? It's mythical language. Things are exaggerated for dramatic impact. I settle for a balance - Ancalagon was huge. Like... huge. Not huge enough to deflect the power of a star though. And he ruined the mountains in his fall because he fell fast and far, if you have to try and make sense of it logically. But mostly because Tolkien damn well said so.
Pretty much what I say often about this. I don't understand people attempting to measure or calculate Ancalagon or the speed he fell. It's not a science class, it's a mythological tale told through ages. The tale says he was massive and that he was slain. That's the interesting part for me. You can then imagine the size in your head.
I always imagined him as being more the size of large kaiju with the power and weight to match than what many of the illustrations show. Massive certainly but not the size of a mountain or city by himself. The way it's described it's easy to imagine something of apocalyptic size give the damage the war of wrath did but I feel that was more a side effect of the actions of the valar themselves and why they refuse to step in unless absolutely necessary.
The problem is, you can destroy a laketown just by the shockwave from the impact, thus I see his depiction in PJ´s Hobbit as realistic to the story. Whereas when it comes to destroying mountains bigger than Orodruin, well, lets just say that you need a totally different kind of impact. A kind that is not only strong enough shatter wooden houses on pilons in the middle of a lake, but able to bring down a solid mountain, or at least damage it so much that you can count it as destroyed without being totally leveled. So lets just say that the 3 peaks were as big as Orodruin in LotR, and stood right next to each other. In that case, I still think that you need to directly hit all 3 of them. So, lets just say, maybe a 5 kilometer wingspan? Now ignore the fact that such being even if created would not be able to fly in real conditions. When it comes to his death, he was literally killed by a dude that had a flying ship he himself was a star.
It doesn't say destroyed the mountains. It said broke the towers of Thangorodrim, which were volcanoes artificially constructed with scrap and held together with Morgoth's magic, the same energy the made Anacalgon. The exact extent of the damage isn't specified, other than that he broke them, and it doesn't specify all 3 either. If someone wanted to imagine him as having fallen at a high speed from a great height, at an angle, and his magic energies causing damage to the magic volcanoes in an explosion of his magic energy released when he crashed, it wouldn't be incongruent with what was written. The artificial volcanoes held together with magic might also have been like a coffee mug, where any significant amount of damage causes the entire thing to break apart. If he were 5 kilometers in size he could have just defeated the Valar by flopping on top of them. Even if there were 20 km of armies he could just roll around on them a bit and defeat them within a few minutes.
No, no, not the size of Tokyo in Japan - the reference was to Tokyo, New Mexico. A population of about 257 people, centered around Floyd's Esso gas station and café.
Great video!! I actually laughed out loud when you talked about someone saying he was bigger than Tokyo! 😂 I’ve always pictured him as just bigger than the others, but without being too ridiculous. I imagine a bigger Smaug, but instead of nestling on the side of The Lonely Mountain, I imagine Anchalagon falling into Thangorodrim destroying the peaks, and creating an avalanche of debris. Abit like a Domino effect. That’s how my mind portrayed it from the text, which in no way is me saying it’s right! Ha, thanks for the Vid 👍🏻
How heavy must one be to damage a mountain by falling on it ? That is how heavy Ancalagon was; and as he could fly, his size can be inferred from that. His wingspan must have been in a certain proportion to the weight of the rest of his body for him to fly easily. And that weight would also need to be distributed in a way that allowed him to fly.
Whatever fire burned inside the dragons was immense, so it seems a far bigger stretch to think he broke Thangorodrim by being heavy than to think he just went thermonuclear when he died. If we even want to find a more scientifically grounded interpretation that is.
Like that magic equivalent of a nuke or at least a decent sized bomb? That would make sense considering the towers of Thangorodrim were also made by the same magic source as Ancalagon.
I think Ancalagon would mostly likely have been between the size of legends Godzilla and king Gidorah though I would entertain the idea of him being as large as the larger Godzilla from the Netflix anime trilogy or as small as a titan from Ark survival evolved.
@@TheRedBook I have thought about it for a while. Like you said he is massive yet small enough to fight and get killed by Eärendil. If he was around the size I speculate. With the powers Eärendil had plus a flying boat capable of traveling to deep space and back in a single day. He is not to big to find it ridiculous that he could defeated by his foe and not small enough to find it weird that he could destroy the the towers of Thangorodrim by landing on them. I also think the impact of his fall had more to with the destruction then his mass alone. Like a meteor. The crater is far bigger than the actual rock.
@@TheRedBook having the comma before the final part of that sentence kind of implies theres something else happening and not being related to the previous part of the sentence
@@herbthompson8937 - Which quote are you speaking of? "Before the rising of the sun Eärendil slew Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host, and cast him from the sky; and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim, and they were broken in his ruin." If it's this one, that's just grammar. Just listing all that happened - he fell from the sky, fell towards the towers, then broke them. Unless you mean a different quote?
Honestly even with modern weapons, a dragon that size would be insanely hard to kill. That's the one you bring out Tsar Bomba for, and even that isn't guaranteed to kill it.
I wish there was a bit more in Tolkien's work about Thangorodrim, i find it very hard to visualise what it would look like exactly, i hear we've got 3 piles of scrap metal and slag taken from furnaces, or something like this, but i just cant wrap my head around what its supposed to look like, are these thin tall conical peaks or are these like giant mounds of dirt which are actually made of metal? Are they like man-made volcanos or do they not actually have lava inside of them like they do in all the pictures we see on the internet Similar goes for Angband and Anfauglith also, great locations but it'd be great to know more about them, perhaps though its best left to the reader's imagination
Then people extrapolate from that in their "dragons compared" videos and compare Anacalgon like he's 5 miles tall, and it seems incongruent like someone hearing two people debating Robocop vs a T-800 and then bringing up Unicron as the big robot who wins.
We know Morgoth gave away his power to his "allies" like Ungoliant or into his ring of Arda. It gave him power over lands, objects etc but personally it diminished him. IN that sense it can be reasoned that morgoth put a lot of his power into his Dragon Avatar - the Ancalagon - so he himself wouldn't have to fight the Valar. Then when Ancalagon was lost, so was his power, which he poured into his "creation". Maybe the Thangorodhrim fell because He no longer possessed the power to hold in shape this creation? The dragon himself "smote ruin" on the mountains exploding on the peaks that themselves were collapsing as a result of his death - a physical sign of Morgoths fall. Thangorodhrims ruin I think was caused by the
There’s a big step between a giant monster that can battle a flying ship captained by a super hero… And a kaiju, a mobile piece of geography that is as unfightable as a tidal wave or a large volcano. I don’t think the latter fits in a world where even Satan expy Morgoth himself is limited enough in size to be inconvenienced by a single super hero with a sword.
I must admit I have never thought that the vast Ancalagon argument was very convincing. As you point out, the Balrog is said to "break" the mountainside, and no one has suggested that means the mountain was entirely destroyed. Ancalagon "breaks" the spires of Thangorodrim, but that doesn't necessarily mean he flattened the entire mountain, just that a massive crash and a major landslide resulted.
His size would be around the size of Deathwing in World of Warcraft compared to the other aspect dragons, imo. Small enough to be in a “pit” of some sort, but big enough to level a city with the flap of his wings or have a small army on his back.
Surtur from MCU while destroying Asgard was confirmed to be 4000 meters tall. Meaning 13000 feet tall. And if Marvel can show such visualization and a monster that big in action than I can bet my ass that Ancalagon the black can be easily 20,000 to 30,000 feet tall and could easily fly around earth's atmosphere. And he could crush normal mountains which are around a 1000 feet tall. Ancalagon would be a little bigger than Mount Everest. Period
I fall on the side of thinking he was huge, but not in terms of miles or anything like the ridiculous estimations I've seen. Still, too bad we didn't get more than a sentence about him
considering that the dragons must have been a breeding population for Morgoth to have so many of them at his disposal in Utumno, there's no way that Ancalagon was multiple orders of magnitude bigger than the other dragons. That's even more ridiculous than Wailord and Skitty being a mating pair in Pokemon breeding
Ancalagon was a little more than a hundred meters long, with a wingspan of thrice that length approaching half a mile. His head alone would not fit in the inner hall of Edoras. He was pretty colossal, but not the size of a full mountain. I'm not pulling this out of my ass, but based on Tolkien's writing Ancalagon was airborne above a known mountain, and based on that we can extrapolate a mass of Ancalagon if we assume a reasonable height at which he flew before crashing down on the mountain. Then, from said mass we can make certain assumptions regarding size, as there is a loose and yet clear association between mass and size (and wingspan in particular) for flying beings. Smaug was pretty big, but Ancalagon was Smaug times ten. To completely level a mountain, from a height of maybe 1600-2400 feet relative the mountain, it would take approximately ten Smaugs.
I don't accept an of that and do really think anyone giving sizes for Ancalagon are pulling it from somewhere. Bringing mass into this is just really weird for me. It's the Legendarium, not physics class.
@@gandalf8216 Of course but that's my point in this video, that approximating something related to myth and legend is weird to me. I don't want to break out the calculator when talking about a big dragon. I like just thinking that he's BIG. Attempts to calculate and work out wingspan and mass etc just don't appeal to me. At least in my opinion. Meaning, no calculation of Ancalagon's size is "within reason" to me. It's an unknown except for him being bigger than any other Dragon.
@@TheRedBook I saw the video of course, and I partially agree with you. But to me, it's more of a deconstruction of imagination, why I imagine something to be of a certain size, or in appearance in general. It doesn't mean I think it's important to know the exact dimensions of a creature when I read about it, it just means I'm curious of why I imagine the creature in the dimensions the way I imagine it, and I tend to be a bit too "rational" for my own good sometimes.
The thing with creatures from that time is that, as I understood it, size is not proportional to power, in general. And things can vary in size, especially those more mythical ones, like Maiar, Valar and what not. Things that depend, in large part, on the spiritual nature for their power can be pretty much any size. And, as I understand it, dragons are something like that - Morgoth created them through some magic shenanigans, perverting or entrapping spirits that exist in the world. So the answer to how big was he might just be "How ever big he wanted/spirit allowed". But he really needed to be damn big to destroy 3 mountain peaks of around 10.000 meters. Now, I can't remember exactly the quote, but if he destroyed the mountain itself, then I am sorry - but he really needed to be gigantic. Smaug and Lake Town are one thing, Smaug was a fire dragon and Lake Town was fairly small and wooden. And when even half of that town is destroyed, you could say that the town is ruined. But for those mountains? He would need to be really massive. Just like some fan art would suggest. Remember, that war included literal gods and was so destructive that it brought down a continent. So... a gigantic dragon is not really a stretch here. On the other hand, if he just destroyed the peaks, as mountains are often associated just by their peak, then he could be much smaller and practical. If you say, for example, it destroyed Mount Everest - there is a large difference between destroying the whole mountain range and just destroying the last few hundred meters of the mountain peak that we call Everest. So in the end, it depends really what Tolkien meant. But I don't really see a problem that, in a battle where gods are throwing punches, one encased spirit in a dragon crawled out of a pit and then grew to a size of a huge mountain, kilometers across. All that is simply because, as I understood it, many of those mythical creatures are not really just physical but are very much connected to a spirit world. Like, balrogs are bigger than men, right? But Gandalf is a spirit of the same order (Maia) but is smaller. Things like those can be any size. They just choose, or are put in a certain physical shell, for a certain job. Not because they are one size and one size only.
I also thought the size of Ancalagon in the size comparison chart was ridiculously overstated. I figured he'd be huge, bigger than any other dragon, but not the size of a whole large city. As stated in your video, if he'd been that large, he wouldn't even have noticed Earendil and his ship, and the mariner would have been powerless to stop or even delay the dragon.
Exactly how I see it. I don't have a problem with people enjoying the story any way they wish but I can't imagine Ancalagon being so massive that he is miles in size. You can make him gargantuan without getting to that kind of silly territory. Some artwork looks incredible for him, making him so massive compared to other Dragons which I like.
Really makes me think that Thorin and his company are VERY lucky to fight Smaug instead of THAT! I mean look at the SIZE of that thing! If they fight Ancalogon instead, they'd be fucked hard!
@@TheRedBook I know talent when I see it! You're correct, of course, with your criticism of much of Ancalagon the Black, most Tolkien scholars are dominated by materialist worldview and as a result are tone deaf (to varying degrees) to mythic speech. Ancalagon was huge, but bigger than Tokyo? Hardly. The dragon is pretty much emblematic of myth, as is the Flat Earth, the decline in the size of draco, as well as the rounding of the Earth, are all part of Iluvatars recreation of Arda, His healing of marring of creation caused by Melkor. The passing of the Flat Earth, the rounding of the world, prepares the world for man. With this in mind, I envision Ancalagon as large as a small mountain, this would be representative of a world dominated by myth and magic, not numbers. In a world free of numbers, myth dominates. The world of numbers begins to come into being with the Rounding of the World. Eventually, myth and numbers must reform into the New Arda. Iluvatars creation must be remade and remade whole. That's where I see Tolkien's myth going.
A size comparison that comes to my mind for Ancalagon the Black is the Red Death (the dragon Hiccup and Toothless fought at the end) from the movie How To Train Your Dragon. That dragon was huge, but not so big that it couldn’t fit inside the nest or use its wings.
He should've been at least hundreds of meters long and extremely dense (to a point he could barely fly) to be able to destroy all 3 peaks of the thangorodrim.
The language used doesn't say he destroyed them, only that he broke them and it doesn't specify all 3 were broken, or to what extend beyond there was clearly visible damage. The damage also could have been the result of release of magical energy, as he was definitely a magical creature, similar to the Balrog who also was described as breaking a mountain with his fall as well.
He was definitely the largest of all dragons. No telling how large, but he could've been the size of Tokyo. Tolkien's stories are about regression. In the first and second age things were bigger, grander, and badder, than the third. Look at how Smaug was stricken down. By a single arrow in a weak spot on his breast. Tolkien likes to play up that kind of heroism. I could totally imagine this gigantic mountain size dragon being felled by a mere dust mite. If Illuvitar wills it, it shall be so.
I get the idea and I'm fine with people believing he was so ridiculously massive. It's just not how I view him. Enters the realm of wackiness for him to be the size of Tokyo, in my opinion.
Haha yeah I never thought of it like that before. I remember the intro to God of War III when you are running over Gaia like it's a landscape but it's actually just this huge figure.
A stone dropped from height can cause damage a dragon which would have hard scales that would be heavy and very hot because friction and dragon has fire cast down from a height as dead weight hitting a mountain that could be hollow would do plenty of damage even if he's the size of a plane.. and being that big pretty sure alot of people would still see his corpse or bones and comment on it but no one does
The massive dragon encircled the whole world, as an evil that's infested everywhere. Symbolically my dear, Thor battled back then, what you battle today. Be it a vise or a beast.
