This is a question that has lingered in my mind for years, after my friend asked, "If Orcs were bred from the Elves tormented by Morgoth, wouldn't they be immortal?" The thought of these miserable creatures living in darkness for centuries was disturbing, but at the same time, the speech and behaviors we saw in the books didn't really match up with that. Their coarse militarism and short-sighted selfishness seemed much more appropriate for a short-lived folk raised under bitter circumstance rather than an ageless people.
Elves' immortality is not an inherent quality of their race. It is granted to them by the Ainur and it can be removed. I can't think if any instance of an elf having their immortality taken away (but we never see any "evil" elves that would deserve it), but if Arwen, Elrond, and Elros all got to *choose* to be mortal or not, then I think it's safe to say that their immortality could be taken away without their choice if the Ainur felt it necessary. Allowing Orcs to remain immortal when Men had an entire kingdom sunk into the ocean for seeking immortality would have been cruel, and very disgusting. Hence, one of the reasons I would assume elves were chosen to corrupt: the Ainur would have to spurn some of their favorite children, or else have an immortal army of evil beings that would overrun the world
The opening of that book... Oh man. I've read some ... Lets call them, encyclopedia like books. The drivel of Ed Wood, who's world I enjoy, but shudder. Yet this has to be the hardest thing I've ever tried to read. I recall one attempt to read through the begging after skipping forward an getting some pages in. Yet I would still try again an again to get the start finished.
@The Contemplator Posthumously published...like The Silmarillion :D . A book edited by someone who wasn't Tolkien and containing other content written by two people who were not Tolkien himself but let's use it to back a claim while ignoring other posthumously published works containing the creator of the Legendarium's last thoughts on matters like this. Makes total sense ;)
@The Contemplator - "in the process" rewritten a few times, never finished. Finished by someone who wasn't Tolkien, who has admitted errors and mistakes in editing, with material added by another writer. Picking and choosing the "canon" like everyone else. And I don't need to "try again" Orcs are clearly mortal according to Tolkien's thoughts on the matter :)
@The Contemplator Intended but never finished :D . I feel sorry for folk obsessing over "canon". I prefer to listen to what the other author actually thought on this stuff, things like Orcs being mortal. Thanks for your permission though ;)
I gotta say, I would prefer the idea of them being immortal like Elves. Why? Because it makes the fact that they die early and in conflict even more tragic and more of a horror inflicted upon them by Morgoth, making his crime even greater. If they had the potential to be ageless, but through the way they are bred and used as slave warriors and driven to fight the other races and each other, it would make their early deaths even more cruel in a sense.
I just love finding out about the layers and layers within Tolkien's writings. That myths, legends and the unknown exist within his own myth creation seems so appropriate and obvious, but not something that I have thought about before. I also think this idea of attributing a soul or equating the life of an orc as the same of say a man or elf is a 21st century concept, and not a particular good one in my opinion. Thank you for giving some exercise to the little grey cells! Have a great day everyone
"I also think this idea of attributing a soul or equating the life of an orc as the same of say a man or elf is a 21st century concept" It's a woke concept, that's for sure.
Even though I hold to the idea that Orcs are corrupted Elves, I agree that they would still be quite shortlived. The general trend within the LotR setting is that the corrupted version of things are usually a direct inversion. Elves are magical immortal beings, therefore Orcs are mundane mortal beings, stripped of everything that made them Elves.
It's a nice idea. It ties in with the other words that go with such 'creations' of Morgoth - counterfeits and mockeries. The idea that they would exist as such corrupted and degraded versions of what they were made from has me imagine them as fading from the earth in swift fashion.
@@martijn31101969 the Biblical narrative explains, evil material beings as off-spring of (fallen) angels and men. The poem Beowulf describes Grendel as being a descendnet of Kane. Some traditions hold Kane reproduced with (fallen)angels/demons. Both Angels and Kane started out as good beings yet their offspring was monstrous. In the Bible any form of Cross breeding between Angels/Demons and humans results in monsters. In LOTR there seems to be some room for interspecies procreation, resulting in enoblement of humanity when the good guys did it. But maybe this proces resulted in degradation when the bad guys did it.
What are your thoughts on the lifespan of Orcs and their origin? Do you agree with the fact that Tolkien in his last writings stated outright that they weren't immortal? If not, why not? Do you have any other questions you'd like to share for future content? Share your thoughts!
It is a tough question. After watching your video, I think the origin has to be with elves after their Awakening and before Orome found them in Cuivienen. I guess they could have been kidnapped by Balrogs and brought to Melkor. I think what Melkor may have done is tortured and corrupted each elf to the point that the elf's spirit left his/her body and went to Mandos, with Melkor replacing that spirit with an evil one of his own. That new creature doesn't have eternal life, as it is the spirit of the elves that lives forever and not his/her body. These male and female beings can reproduce, so Melkor could have bred the race of orcs from just a few or a few dozen male and female elves.
I think that if they were indeed bred from elves that when they died their spirits would go to the Halls of Mandos and there be cleansed of any impurity. If not, they would stand before Iluvatar it their own place at the proper time. It's clear that they are capable of independent thought, and have the capacity for friendship, so they can not be entirely evil. As far as I know, orcish society has not been discussed. That there are female orcs is certain, but none appear that I know of. What is their role? They have cities, so there must be trade and agriculture to support them. How does their economy work? Those are some things I would like to see addressed.
The thing that bothers me most about Orcs = corrupted Elves is the vast numbers of Orcs, which would have required even vaster numbers of Elves to begin with. Yet, Elves generally produced relatively few offspring. Then too, so many of them were killed in the great wars; yet, there seems to be a virtually endless supply of Orcs, whose numbers continued to grow even as the Elves diminished. It doesn't add up. I don't reject the corrupted Elves notion. It just seems that there must have been some other (additional) way of producing Orcs besides capturing Elves and corrupting them. How else could Orcs be so numerous? Did they procreate? I'm not aware of any mention of female Orcs, or baby Orcs. I guess these are all rhetorical questions, since Tolkien himself never really fully explained the genesis of so many Orcs.
@@Vito_Tuxedo - Even though I kind of reject the corrupted Elves idea, Tolkien did answer the questions you ask. The idea isn't that every Orc is some corrupted Elf. It's that Morgoth bred Orcs through the corruption of Orcs. They then become their own race. Orcs then breed with Orcs and produce more Orcs. The process of needing Elves to make them ended through that initial corruption that made the race of Orcs in the first place. Tolkien says Orcs reproduced in the manner of the Children of Iluvatar, meaning they did procreate, mated, had baby Orcs. They are able to breed endlessly because it's obvious that the Dark Lords made them. Another corruption of the idea of procreation in the first place.
@@TheRedBook I never tried to reconcile how they could have started from eternal beings yet seem to have lifespans similar to men. I wrote my take on "reconciling" those two things in another post on this board.
I like how you try to follow the mind of the man himself to reach your conclusions. I have a question: do you think that Third Age Sauron had more orcs or more humans in his service?
Some people evidently don't! Well, I don't think there's anything stated outright one way or the other but from what we know of Orcs I'd have to go with Orcs. Even with the vast armies from the South and East, Sauron always had an abundance of Orcs, even when they were destroyed in this battle and that. I'd find it hard to believe that Men outnumbered Orcs in his army...though he probably WANTED them to eventually be the larger force for him...
There is no way to tell how many orcs Sauron had in Ered Lithui and Ephel Duath. Mordor is surrounded by mountains that are begging to be inhabited by orcs, spiders, Balrogs, and dragons.
I imagine armies of humans are way more competent than orcs. Then again their societies are probably much more complicated for Sauron to control than orcs. You never know what theyre going to do. I asked because I got the impression that most of the major fighting in the War of the Ring consisted of man on man fights, for instance in the Pellenor it seems like the orcs are swept away pretty quickly by the cavalry charge, and most of thr emphasis is afterwards put on confronting the men of Harad and the East, although that simply might be because they were the toughest fight.
@@waltonsmith7210 so many answered questions. why would one folllow Sauron? fear, promisses of power and riches? did orcs consider Sauron as a deity or simply the one on top of their brutal society?
Personally I always assumed that if Aule - with his powers as a Valar - could create the Dwarves, then Melkor - an even more powerful Valar - could have created the Orcs. The whole legendarium seems a bit undecided on where they came from. The Elves weren't 100% sure it seemed to me and the Dwarves and Men didn't seem to have a clue. I also felt that it was Yavanna who created the Ents, when no one was looking, so to speak. She always seemed a bit aggrieved about how 'her world' was at the disposition of others and probably thought, well then, I will create my own Forestry Management Corps.
Aule created the Dwarves, but they were essentially automatons until Eru deigned to give them true life and free will. The orcs would have been the same for melkor without Eru's intervention. You are correct that the Ents stemmed from yavanna's desire for a 'forestry management corps' though. The below quote from the Silmarillion makes them out to be born from spirits rather than 'created beings' so to speak though. I imagine the Great Eagles have some similar sort of origin. Perhaps Melkor used a similar means to aid in his 'creation' of the orcs. "When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared."
As Kenny pointed out, while Aule created the form of the dwarves, he couldn't give them life/free will. Illuvatar gave them life, and also permitted Yavanna's request at the same time (that something exist to protect the trees from the dwarves' axes). Melkor/Morgoth lacked the ability to give life to anything, and I rather doubt Illuvatar would have breathed life into an orc at his request.
Thank you :D 45 is a good amount at the moment! Though, I will have a new video up for Tolkien Reading Day on the 25th. I'm hoping to get back in the rhythm of a video a week or at most 2 weeks. I've started making them so complicated that it takes a lot longer to do them :/
On Orcs: 1. I adhere to the Elf + Maia = Orcs theory. Orcs came to be during the time of stars so it would not be possible to twist men into orcs because the Secondborn do not enter Arda until the beginning of the First Age. While I do see the logic in immortal orcs, as they are the result of mating one immortal to another immortal, the missing piece in this conclusion is Eru Iluvatar. The Gift of Immortality and Mortality are the domain of Eru alone and only Eru can grant them. Born out of the great love of one of the Maiar for an elf, Luthien can be counted among the Immortals. The price for this seems to be that Melian could no longer shed her form for a new one during her sojourn in Middle Earth. Born of hate and rape, orcs are pawns of the Dark Lord, are going to get from Eru a gift appropriate to them. An eventual end to the fighting, suffering, domination and mind control is a mercy to the orcs granted to them by Eru. 2. I don't think having immortal servants was Melkor's goal. Fecund servants that multiply like flies? Yes! Immortal servants with increasingly longer lists of questions about the fairness of way things are? No thanks. I think Orcs are Melkor's response to Eru's challenge (as he sees it) that, "...no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite." Orc are both practical slaves and soldiers of Melkor, but also a big middle finger to Eru for as long as the race of orcs shall last. 3. I have noticed antagonism towards the creation of the orcs in the first place because of their lack of free will. As a response I would respond that of course the orcs had no free will, but that was due to their creation by a Dark Lord. Left to their own devises, who knows how Orcs would have evolved over time. Their lack of free will was the point. When Tolkien speaks of Orcs as the mockery of the Children of Eru, this is one of the things included in the mockery. Orcs are the answer to the question what could Melkor do to hurt Eru the most. The Valar did not dare to alter anything about the Children of Eru. When they were under assault from some very wayward Enemy worshipping Children, the Valar bowed out at let Eru handle his own Kids. Not Morgoth. "Alteration" of the Children was on the agenda as soon as the Firstborn arrived. 4. I do think that Melkor either choses not to hear or think about the latter half of the above quote from Eru Iluvatar: "For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined." Perhaps Eru will pat Melkor on the head and say thanks to his wayward Musician for the multitudes of souls that came to be are are now redeemed and reconciled with the uttermost Source of their creation. Perhaps Melkor will look for his hoards of Orcs behind him in the Dagor Dagorath only to find multitudes of a new kindred the Children, with healed minds, perfected in body and spirit, who would like a word with their former master. Who knows. I do know who gets the last word, and knowing that, I'm sure it will be wonderful beyond imagination.
I don’t have the exact quote, but to paraphrase: Then many of the Ainur, both Valar and Maiar, chose to descend into the new world of Arda forever, *along with many lesser spirits and beings, some of whom were allied with the greater beings, and some were Not- being simply other beings who were entranced with the sight of opportunity* {or similar wording}. The races of sylphs of the air, including Manwe’s hawks and eagles, the River woman, fays of the meadows and fields, and (of course) Tom Bombadil-- come to mind. Such “lesser” creatures seem to be the likeliest source of what were corrupted and later bred into Orcs by Melkor, IMHO! What do you think?
Additionally, this idea leaves plenty of room for various levels and powers (of minimally or completely allied with Melkor) creatures to develop into evil
It is an idea that has been floated around that the spirits inhabiting these forms were of some of these lesser kinds. It is entirely possible, but we still don't know for sure unfortunately!
@@TheRedBook I once tried to write to Christopher to see if my ideas had any merit or evidence…never got an answer though. 😕 My longtime burning question has been: Who is GILFANON ?? Any ideas?
I can’t believe there’s actually a video on this. When I read they were corrupted elves I thought they might be. I thought maybe Melkors curse is that they ARE immortal but they hate being alive, which is why they are always willing to fight anyone, even each other. Orcs also seem to like casting themselves into pits when they are allowed to. I also think Tolkien had this concept that orcs became boogeymen after Sauron’s defeat, hiding away in dark places in small numbers or solitary. Being immortal feeds into the idea that they become the monster under the bed. Then again, I agree it makes more sense overall that orcs lead short brutal lives. I can even see Tolkien flipping his opinion with age. When he was young, he seemed to focus more on the fairy tale aspects of the lore, but as an older man - shocked that people thought his book was the best thing ever - he started to rationalize some of the more fanciful elements. As an older man, I know I was much more at ease with loose ends and contradictions when I was younger, but now I spend too much time trying to rationalize things.
Thank you for the video, Steven, very interesting and informative, as always! I definitely remember Tolkien saying something like "Orcs are not Elvish in origin" in one of his notes somewhere in Morgoth's Ring. On the other hand, do you think it would be taking too much liberty to say that if Morgoth was interested enough in corrupting Men he would certainly try to corrupt Elves as well? He would not be able to take away their immortality, the gift of Illuvatar, but would it be legit to say that there would be two different races of Orcs? And one of them would technically be immortal but living so harsh lives that they would die of various causes anyway? Or suffered to the degree that the fea left the body voluntarily?
I guess if people want to read it that way they can't but I wouldn't go in for that. I think the corruption of whatever they once were, even if immortal, would lead to this new creature without immortality. The flame within wouldn't burn bright, they would be pure corrupted, one reason why Eru would see them as the most terrible of Melkor's works.
@@TheRedBook So he would be interfering with Eru's intentions. He can't take away the gift of death or immortality, but he can spread corruption and cause these gifts to be corrupted in turn?
@@annamnatsakanyan4040 That's how I see it. Death is a gift, but so is immortality. Melkor has twisted something to evil and evil diminishes. Perhaps in their "true" nature they should be immortal, but they do not last because they are forms of corruption. Or, to relieve them of such an existence, they are not doomed to constantly serve and be abused by Dark Lords - they get salvation in the form of removal. There are many ways we could word it. Still, I think the fact they are mockeries and corruptions means that their very nature is what becomes corrupted. The idea that they are tied to the world like Elves just doesn't add up for me when we consider that evil always diminishes in the Legendarium...
From all of the Tolkien I’ve read (Hobbit, LOTR, portions of the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales), I never had an impression that orcs lived much more than 60 years naturally. I’d heard the notion that orcs were corrupted Elves, which never added up to me, and certainly don’t believe that Tolkien ever intended any of the orcs to have immortality. The notion of Maiar taking Orcish forms, possibly back in the First Age seems plausible, I suppose. Off the top of my head, there were never any named Orcs reported to have appeared in Arda over the spans of decades/centuries/millennia.
I'm surprised by the amount of comments I have received on the video with people who do believe they are immortal simply because of the origin within The Silmarillion. Refreshing to read someone else who never had that impression.
In my head cannon I had it that orca were originally corrupted elves, and their life cycle would work the same, but over time the OGs were, perhaps forcibly, bred with.... other things, men included, and the decendants of those would undoubtedly get old and die, but perhaps slower being in the first generation half corrupted elf.
I was wondering how to reconcile the HoTME writings with the fact that in the Hobbit Bolg is stated as the son of Azog, which implies he was born before 2799 TA (Battle of Azanulbizar, death of his father Azog) and 2941 TA (Battle of the five armies). Of course corrupted Maiar spirits could explain this, but I'm not sure. Anyway great video!
I think exceptions would exist when it comes to lifespan. Though, when it comes to The Hobbit there's quite a few things that don't quite match up to other parts of the Legendarium. I just think of Bolg as very old for an Orc, showing its not impossible they can live unexpectedly long lives but that its not the norm.
@@conniestone6251 - Technically Hobbits are of the race of Men. I think it's more that each race has a typical lifespan but exceptions would exist. If someone lives 20 years longer than usual it would be a rare occurrence and not the norm. If you do compare to US as you say, about 100 verified people have lived beyond about 114 years old. That makes it exceedingly rare but possible.
@@TheRedBook I do want to put forward the word “appeared” as well. As a consideration our life expectancies include unnatural deaths. When infant deaths are high or war is present life expectancy goes down. I would assume orcish culture in general, probably being primitive, dirty, worked hard, eating poorly, exposed to elements, fighting others, and fighting themselves could lead to apparently shorter lifespans. Bolg could be the case of an orc who just didn’t die and worked his way up to a position to keep from dying. I think this is likely untrue and more likely is Bolg is an exception, something else entirely, or the hobbit was just off from the rest of the lore (most likely) but it is an idea to put forward too!
One possible origin for Orcs that comes to mind having watched this video, is that the original Orcs with the Maia that the video talks about taking Orcish form and having come into the world with Melkor. These then bred with captured members of other races (Elves and Humans) and maybe each other to produce the hordes that Melkor needed. Of course, once there were enough Orcs, they would then breed amongst themselves with no need for the Maia-Orcs and captives to be used. The one thing that we know is that Melkor could not create live, and therefore the orcs must have an origin in some creature that was twisted to his purpose, whether that was Maia, Elf, Dwarf, Human or some other creature, or even a combination of all.
All the goblins in the Misty Mountains recognized Orcrist/Biter. If they were "short-lived," I would say that this recognition would not have happened.
Why not? Were the Men of Rohan who knew of Aragorn's blade alive when it was originally forged or when it was broken? People keep mentioning this one anomaly from The Hobbit of all books. The one Tolkien even started (later abandoned) to rewrite. Even when I have quoted Tolkien himself saying they are short-lived. You aren't arguing with my opinion, you are arguing with the author...
@@TheRedBook The men of Rohan knew of the blade, but that's not the same as a crowd of them screaming as one when the blade was revealed. I'm STILL gonna have to concede the point to you - based on your point - about the author. Perhaps you mentioned this in your vid and I missed it. I have a short attention span ( or am stupid ). I like your work, BTW.
I can see how orcs may not be immortal especially if the "corrupted elves" theory is eliminated. However Tolkien clearly states in the Silmarillion that this is how they came into being. Regardless of whether orcs are immortal or not, how do they reproduce? Azog appears to have had a son: how? And if they are mortal and live roughly human lifespans (apart from Bolg!), how do they grow old? Given that their existence seems focused virtually exclusively on fighting, does their physical prowess diminish with age or do they maintain their vigour effectively until their deaths? I'm afraid that any significant scrutiny of the orcs, beyond the basics of their somewhat one dimensional and unrelenting malevolence, reveals a rather inconsistent and unresolvable plot line, a rare failing for Tolkien. I prefer not to look too closely as I don't want to spoil my enjoyment of the books.
Well, Tolkien clearly states it but it's well documented that after the text that was used in The Silmarillion he clearly stated he didn't like that idea. So, technically, Christopher Tolkien clearly stated that they came from corrupted Elves. Yet, this does not necessarily mean they have to share in all the characteristics or fate of Elves. That's what corruption and mockery is. Even if they came from corrupted Elves, they became Orcs, a new race and this race wasn't one to share in immortality. That seems like corruption to me. They are said to just reproduce like all the Children of Illuvatar, this part has never bothered me, unless we are talking about souls? But the fact they are now a part of the world means they have still in some way been accepted by Eru in terms of their existence. As for what happens as they get old, that is unknown. It's quite funny thinking of an old bearded Orc. I wouldn't focus so much on Bolg as he seems like a bit of an anomaly? Maybe Orcs really just don't get to last until old age takes them because of their life of violence?
@@thecollector6746 The work published after he died. Not the fault of J.R.R. Tolkien that Christopher edited The Silmarillion as he did. I don't care about "breaking" the Silmarillion. I care about reading what the author wrote.
Maybe when I’m older I can be a true Tolkien Scholar like you. Only 16 and I’m about to purchase The History of Middle earth series. I wish I could find more people my age who like Tolkien. Great video!
Never too early to start. I recommend writing about Tolkien as much as you read Tolkien. Get your ideas out on a blog or something like that. That's what I started 5 or 6 years ago and I started learning more than I did when I was only reading. It's good to get your ideas down somewhere.
Welcome to the tribe! There are almost definitely young people interested in Tolkien, it may just take some investigating on your part. You may have to content yourself with an online group unless you live in a big city.
I would agree that Orcs were short-lived and had similar life spans to humans, a few decades in most cases. As for their origin, my guess would be corrupted Elves and later corrupted men, which over the ages and through thousands of years of interbreeding created their own unique life form with multiple variations.
Hey, The Red Book, I got a question. Elves, I read somewhere cannot be poisoned. Yet Turgon's sister died of a poisoned wound. How is this? Is this another case of multiple storylines ending up in the text?
Hi Jonathon. Elves absolutely are susceptible to poison, and Eol with his poisoned javelin isn't the only example. Though, the inconsistency comes from Tolkien writing that Elves never used poison "not even against their most cruel enemies". This was to make Eol's poisoned attack something really evil and shameful. This part wasn't included in what Christopher Tolkien published though. But yes, Elves can be harmed by poison. It may be disease you are thinking of? This is something that is said to be of the race of Men.
@@TheRedBook thanks for the answer. I could swear I did read that somewhere. Merely a single line on the topic. I will peruse my books. And see if I can find it. If I do Ill try to show you where I found it. Thanks again for the great content.
It could also be a combination of the Maiar and Elf/human origins, with the first orcs being Maiar who took on corrupt forms of the Children of Iluvatar, and then bred with captured elves and men to form orcs proper.
Ah, it brakes the heart! I always loved the idea of orcs' origins being that of elves, rent from the music to which they were so attuned and set in discord against it. An act of spiritual mutilation born of pure spite where the Eldar in Melkor's world would forever reside at the bottom of the hierarchy.
I reconcile the short Orkish lifespan with their apparent kinship with Elves with the Fading. Elves aren't _supposed_ to die of old age, but their bodies still wear out while in Middle-earth, being consumed and leaving Elves as bodiless spirits if they don't sail to Valinor. Extreme stress and pain seems to massively accelerate this process, such as Gwindor looking like an old Man after being tortured by Morgoth for 14 years. I figure that the corrupted existence of Orcs is so torturous for them that they end up Fading far more rapidly than the Elves. Plus, given the stated lifespan of the Orcs, it seems that Morgoth also used his powers to speed up their aging process so they would be adults and useful as soldiers much more quickly, which also would probably contribute to them Fading more rapidly.
It seems likely that orcs 1.0 are descended from elves and orcs 2.0 are derived from men and possibly some dwarvish strains as well. Perhaps orcs 1.0 were immortal but by the third age are mostly slain. Orcs seem to be a waste basket taxon in my mind where you can throw in just about anything which eventually becomes debased with the rest. I have played around with the concept of Gollum being a hobbit derived orc. But that last statement would greatly depend upon exactly what the definition of " orc" is.
I like the idea, but it very much seems that the strain of orcs improves rather than diminishes over the course of the ages. Sauron's refinements in the Third Age that result in the Uruk-hai seem to be much stronger and capable than the hordes Morgoth had in the First Age, much as Sauron's refinement of trolls resulted in the Olog-hai, a more intelligent breed that could withstand sunlight. As to Gollum, he's more akin to one of the Ringwraiths, a creature that is fading into the Shadow. You could think of him best as 'proto-undead'. An orc is a physical, living being, while Gollum is slipping away from that mortal state. His 'unnatural long life', I mean, is it really life or a kind of chrysalis as the Ring turns him into a wraith? Granted, as seen with the domination once Sauron's aware the Ring's been found compared to the ease with which Bilbo and Gollum were earlier able to employ it, leads one to believe that the Dark Lord would be able to greatly speed up this process by exerting his will over the ring-bearer.
I would also add that the Silmarillion is a published book and Tolken's notes on changing his mind on the origin of orcs is not but by the hand his son, therefore one can only sumise wether he would have or would not have changed the cannon orins of orcs! Yes orcs had short lives males and yes tolken intended short lives as in violent deaths rather than natural deaths plus history shows that violent lives even in humans in real life were short compared to todays standards and who's to say that morgoths corruption didn't make elf/orc suseptable to dis-ease.
Bolg, son of Azog the Defiler lived at least 140 years. It was 140 yeard between the battle at the Moria's gates where Azog fell, and the Battle of the 5 Armies where Bolg fell. Azog was Bolg's father, so Orcs breed the same way as men and Elves (THAT is stated in the Silmarillon). So Bolg was not "an evil spirit taking an Orc form". He was "just" an Orc.. I think the conclution in this video is wrong.
Here's a thought: while it's not necessarily the same thing as "immortality," has anyone questioned whether orcs actually grew *old*, sinee in many ways, their Elvish "brethren" did not? It would be interesting to see if Orcs aged somewhat the way that, say, great white sharks do, simply growing bigger and stronger with age, until something came along that was able to kill them. Even if they didn't live as long as humans, that would still make an old orc something very dangerous, and it would fit in with the idea of a "breeding program," or an ideal of survival of the fittest, such as the Dark Lords were likely to practice with their creatures. Also, I don't see how the idea of "warping and corrupting" Elves is incomaptible with their being cross-bred with Maiar creatures, whose form might indeed have directed their breeding to a specific end. Some of Melkor's creatures may have helped breed the Orcs, others the Trolls, and so on, based on differences in their forms.
That's a cool idea. I've often thought that where Elves become more weary with the world the longer they exist, Orcs become more foul and more evil - making them more dangerous. I've imagined Grishnakh being a particularly old Orc, and he is described as having an "evil voice" which is interesting because it's making out that his voice sounds even more grim than a regular Orc's! And I agree with your last point as well, that could certainly be an option.
Do you think it's possible that all original Orcs were Maiar and that it was only after the awakening of Men that mortal Orcs were created? It would certainly allow the original myth of the rising of the Sun and Moon to remain intact. It doesn't really fit with the the time table of the first rising of the Sun, the arrival of the Noldor in Beleriand, and Morgoth's attack upon Doriath and the other enclaves of the Sindar in Beleriand. Maybe the rising of the Sun took place a bit earlier? Just a few thoughts.
I think it's because Tolkien's changing opinion of the Orcs blended with his changing nature of the history of Arda. He clearly did not like the origin of Orcs as it now exists in The Silmarillion but he also would have changed things like the rising of the Sun so that it 'worked'. The problem is, we are left with these definitive thoughts on Tolkien's issue with the origin of Orcs and many people bring it up (myself included) but few bring up that the Changing of the World was going to then be a legend among Men and not how it really happened. No one brings up that Tolkien would have changed the timetable you mention. So, I'm left saying that corrupted Elves probably isn't how it happened but the alternative (men) doesn't fit with the mythology as it stands. So, I'd probably stray further from it being Maiar as you suggest and I'd lean more towards empowered beasts or something of the sort - or husks created as a race by Melkor much like the Dwarves were 'created' by Aule but without the blessing that then came after from Eru. Something like that. I do accept that some Orcs were certainly spirits that took that shape and I always like including those parts of Tolkien's writings cause it's such a cool idea that a Maia as an Orc could be leading Orc forces.
I just watched your vid about immortality. Since only Eru can undo the gifts of immortality and death and orcs aren't immortal, doesn't this mean that: A. Orcs can't be fallen maiar or elves B. Orcs can't fashioned from slime and stone (Valar can't bestow life) C. Orcs can't be corrupted men (timeline issues) It seems to me that Melkor couldn't have created orcs without Eru's blessing, either by giving corrupted elves the gift of men or by breathing life into stone (like the dwarves).
A - They can be both. Some Orcs could be fallen Maiar - just simply taking "Orkish shape". They could still be Elves but the very nature of corruption, counterfeit existence, and a life brought about through mockery could have them stained in spirit, doomed to a shorter existence due to the very nature of their existence. B - They can create through subcreation but they can't create independent life. They can use what already exists to fashion things from it. It's still possible they were creatures of sorcery created from the fabric of Arda and that they have no independence, existing as husks serving the greater will. One reason to explain why they are considered the greatest blasphemy in the eyes of Eru. C - Timeline issues, certainly. Though, we have to assume that Tolkien would have fixed this. We know he liked the idea of them being corrupted Men but we are left with the timeline issues because he never got to change that.
@@TheRedBook Thanks for taking the time again. I'll do this out of order: B. Creation thru subcreation ignores the fact that other vala still needed Eru to animate their subcreations. Aule - Dwarves. A. The corrupted elf theory ignores that no power other than Eru could rescind the gift of immortality. I know that Tolkien didn't live long enough to clarify this issue. Trying to fix this "plothole" with the canon that we have, the only thing I can think of is that the earliest orcs were misidentified fallen maia and the orcs we have now are corrupted men. This works technically but raises questions like: 1. How many fallen maia could a standard elven foot soldier be expected to defeat? 2. How did the keen-eyed elves fail to distinguish the two types linguistically when the differences must've vast compared to the ones between goblins, orks, uruk hai?
@@similaritiesendhere B - It doesn't ignore that because that's not how it is. The Dwarves would not move unless Aule willed them to but that's not the same as them just standing still forever unless he said "move". Melkor could have created Orcs with a purpose, with no independent will, then sent them out. They would then exist solely to fulfill his will. They even see his eye in their own mind's eye, with him putting out his will into the world. The problem is that they have no independence, and that's the sin. They are incapable of having free will and that's the issue. A - Does it? The text says no one could take away the Gift of Men. So, no one could take mortality away from Men. That's very different from a corrupted race being bred that doesn't share the gifts of the ones used to create it. Orcs become their own race, they aren't all Elves anyway, they are a counterfeit mockery OF Elves. Part of that corruption could be simply not sharing in their original blessed nature. 1 - We can't really know this stuff. It's much like asking how Werewolves would be defeated if any of them contained fallen Maiar spirits. We must remember that not all of the Maiar are as great as Sauron. 2 - They did notice. We are told that these Orcs were greater, fouler. It doesn't seem like the Maiar taking Orkish shape were exactly like regular Orcs. Not saying your thoughts are wrong, this is all based on texts outside of the main sources :)
@@TheRedBook In reference to A, that's the idea I got from your vid on immortality. Corrupting the immortality out of a race seems like a legalese loophole for taking away the elven race's mortality. Unless you mispoke in that vid, every mortal elf (orc) born would've been a sin worse than humans sailing west. A sin beyond power of the other vala to repair.
@@TheRedBook I just rewatched the video. You didn't mispeak. You were quoting letter 153. I was going to bring this up in that video but wanted to see if you discussed this matter in a video about orcs. If Melkor did corrupt elves into orcs then he indeed "changed the destiny" of some elves. Their descendants would be mortal, bypassing the will of Eru.
One of the most enduring questions in all the Legendarium, with neither clear nor positive answers. No matter what theory one chooses, the concept of an entire race born and destined for evil and corruption is uncomfortable. Personally, I agree that they live short and brutish lives, that many of them were Maia. But for the vast majority of orcs? There will forever be no clear or comfortable answer…
@The Contemplator I’m sorry man. Tolkien WANTED the orcs to be ultimately redeemable, but was unable to find a satisfactory explanation till his death. If you read what we are given in The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, and The Silmarillion, orcs are clearly bad to the bone with no hope of redemption whatsoever.
If we accept that Melkor 'made' the orcs by slow arts of cruelty from elves he had captured, it think it unlikely the orcs would have retained immortality as they are no longer elves.
I made the assumption that if a.) Orcs are corrupted elves then b.) they are, like elves, immortal. I can see why this is wrong. If they are corrupted Elves, then the mutilation and twisting would have robbed them of their Elvish essence. Hence - no eternal life.
Quite a few comments pop up on this video repeating those assumptions, ignoring that Tolkien did say they were not immortal. When we talk of what corruption is and what mockery is, I end up having to ask people what they think that would mean? A lot more than an ugly physical form.
What about the Great Goblin recognising the swords of Gondolin by sight? Those were used against orcs in the First Age and recognised as such at the end of the Third Age in "The Hobbit" - which is like 6000-7000 apart?
Do you need to have been around when something was first around to recognise it? Legolas recognised a Balrog but it doesn't mean he was around in the First Age when Balrogs were taking part in battles. Things that are special, famous, or infamous, have a reputation and I'm not surprised they were recognised.
@@TheRedBook The orcs have no libraries nor pictures. A broad species of monsters is easily described and recognised - you would easily regonise a dragon as a dragon or a tiger as a tiger just from hearing about it. But this does not work ith a very specific exemplar of a quite common weapon - not without nearer inspection and comparison against a very detailed description. And the Great Golblin just throws a look at them and instantly knows the swords and he has a very personal and emotional response. = He has seen the swords in use before. This is because when writing the Hobbit the "Hobbit-world- Gondolin" was not supposed to have been ca 7000 before, but more like 50 years before - it was only inspired by the Gondolin from the future Silmarillion. But now that the Hobbit is incorporated in the broader Legendarium the Great Goblin is for sure several thousands years old. Which would make him a Maia leader according to the theory presented in your video.
I'm quite surprised that after 33 videos or so that I haven't really talked about Balrogs yet. I don't know if I would do a wings video because a lot of channels have and I don't think I have anything to say that they haven't. I'd probably talk more about why the question keeps getting asked rather than answering the question. A disappointment to some maybe like my "How large was Ancalagon" video where I don't actually give an answer but talk about how silly the discussion is. I would like to do a Balrog video though. Maybe talking about their speech, or purpose, or the history of their development. I really should cover Durin's Bane and Gandalf too.
@@TheRedBook it would be interesting to see their development, also if possible, can you check the questions about Sauron that i sent? sorry to bother, and thanks
What about Shagrat and Gorbag's references to the Great Siege and setting up with a few "trusty lads" just like in the old times? Sounds as if they are talking about centuries ago. Definitely not the words of short-lived creatures. Furthermore, Treebeard, an ancient creature, is horrified by the idea of Saruman cross-breeding Orcs and Men, as if it was a new idea. Given that Treebeard is not one of the Wise, it seems that Tolkien, at least at the writing of the LotR, believed that orcs were corrupted elves. Elves were not pure creatures immune to corruption. Morgoth managed to corrupt Maeglin quite quickly, and did a good job of beating down Gwindor after only a few years. A couple of hundred or thousand years in Angband would have been enough to corrupt at least a few elves into becoming orcs. And Morgoth would take it from there to make sure that they bred quickly.
I was so confused as a child when watching Jackson's movies having read the book before considering the scene where Saruman seemingly breeds them from slime. Looks like Peter Jackson was a HoME buff with his own favourite version 🤣 Personally, I am content though not thrilled by the version presented in the Silmarillion. What really doesn't work for me is any notion of them being animals or automatons, that would trivialise the wars fought in Middle-Earth to childish levels.
Haha I didn't actually think of that scene being very HoMe... I always just thought it was to show them as monsters and perhaps to avoid the very real implications involving rape between Men and Orcs...
@@TheRedBook Yeah, I was joking. I have a follow-up question: do you think that Elves can starve? And I wanted to mention that Elves can die from grief, extreme exhaustion or the like (don't remember the exact word) so if Orcs do descend from Elves, the utter torment of their existence may cause them to die after some decades rather than a biological aging process.
@@Crafty_Spirit it's strongly implied that the Elves Elurín and Elured starved to death. At least, they were "left to starve" and their fates were unknown. Also, Frodo speaks about Orcs to Sam and talks of them needing food because they were corrupted from living things meaning they had to live like other living things. This seems to imply that yes, Elves had to eat. Just like with most things, they'd probably handle a lack of food far longer than Men.
@@TheRedBook well in morgoth ring it says that morgoth can't create so he can only corrupt. And it also basically says that it would be impossible for morgoth to destroy the children of illuvatar so completely that they would be beyond redemption after death and denied at the halls of Mandos. So you go into the territory of Morgoth "breeding" the race of orcs. Well...that just leads me to one option, somebody was banging elves that wasn't other elves and they made horrible unnatural monster babies. Tolkien was just too polite to say it out loud. Mind you, it's all fiction and none of this is true so it doesn't matter and is open to interpretation.
It's my opinion that's the privity of all beings. It's the worst in us all no matter what. They are buried pain forgotten souls and forgotten soldiers that have no one. If not proper respect you'll get darkness and darkness is just that when you dig and dig to find it.
I imagine almost all orcs, probably died in conflict at some point, so maybe one never lived long enough to see if they indeed were immortal. Also, the bodies of elves are negatively affected by the corruption in middle earth, as opposed to Valinor, so it would follow that orcs being corrupted elves, might have bodies that had less resilience.
I like to think that orcs were in fact immortal. This explains how they were able to outbreed all of the children of Illuvatar. It's easy to get an army of a few hundred thousand if your breeding stock doesn't die. Also it explains why all of the arable land in Arda wasn't devoted to growing food for orcs.
True but immortal beings in Tolkien's world put a part of themselves in their children, they are unable to have many many children. Mortals can. Couldn't it be easier to imagine they just use female Orcs as breeding stock?
@@TheRedBook Great point! But I've often wondered is it because immortal beings can't have lots of children or in their wisdom they chose to have fewer children. Finwë had a very large family with his second wife.
It's a mental and physical issue. When Feanor was born, it was said the strength of his spirit was enough for his mother to have created several children. He was so great that she became weakened in mind and body due to the strain. The case of Feanor and his wife having many children, for example, speaks of the great strength of will in that line. It's very very rare for Elves to have so many children. Most seem to have one, two, or three, and then they have no inclination to have more. They move onto other pursuits.
@@TheRedBook Yes that is true of the Elves. But was it also true of the Maiar? Would one or more of the Maia orcs be able to breed continually with regular orcs?
I would think they would get smart enough to not take commands and take up mutiny. If they can expand there mind that is and start questioning themselves over there command. Order.
Hi Steven, I have an unrelated question but appreciate if you help me out here, I feel quite confused. I was under the impression that all Rings of Power (save for the One) were created with the initial intention to hand them out to Elves, i.e. distributing them to Dwarves and Men was an improvised plan by Sauron. (It seems plain anyway that these Rings are meant for beings who act both in the Seen and Unseen). However, I was hearing a podcast by one of your fellow youtubers and there it was said that the Rings were intended for all races. I have a hard time finding a passage that gives a waterproof answer, so hopefully, you can clear this up...
There is talk in Unfinished Tales, a legend among Dwarves that King Durin III was given a Ring of Power by Celebrimbor before Sauron came to reclaim them. But I don't know which podcast you have been listening to because I think they are wrong there. The Elves forged the rings and they were forged with their motives and for their purposes. It was Sauron who then took the rings he found and distributed them. Elves didn't make Rings of Power for Men as we can see with their unnatural reaction to wearing them. They are designed for Elves and by Elves. Even the messenger at the gate in The Lord of the Rings tells the Dwarves that if Sauron is given the "least of rings" - the One - then he will give the Dwarves Rings of Power he reclaimed "such as he gave of old". It seems clear that Sauron took these rings OF the Elves and then gave them out to the other races with strange side-effects. Whoever has been saying otherwise is probably getting their information from the movies, which imply that the rings were made for all the races. An idea that people invested in Tolkien really shouldn't believe. That's a common thing with a lot of RU-vidrs, the inability to focus on Tolkien's work without constantly going back to adaptations...
@@TheRedBook Thank you so much! It is as I remembered. And I too thought that Durin's Ring may be somewhat of an anomaly - if Celebrimbor really gave him the Ring (which seems plausible considering that the Dwarves of Khazad-Dûm had the Elves' back in the War of Sauron and the Elves - so why would Durin III accept a magical artefact from an enemy), it would be interesting to know what he thought - like that the Ring may help the Dwarves, too, in preserving their realms? Well, Helen from The Clueless Fangirl channel dropped this. She is well-read though throws in a lot of (sometimes undeclared) conjecture. And I think this misconception originates from the poem about the Rings of Power. By reading Lord of the Rings, you as I recall don't really get the information that the poem was composed after the relationship between Sauron and the Elves turned sour.
@@Crafty_Spirit - Since we don't really know, we have to imagine for ourselves. Either Sauron took on a fair form again to speak with the Dwarves, or he used servants or allies to give the Dwarves the rings. He would know what would appeal to them, and I don't find it hard to imagine Sauron of all people being cunning enough to fool the Dwarves. Yes, the poem is definitely something that came after the rings had already existed for quite a while, and we don't even know who wrote it. We know the words on the ring itself have their place there, but Sauron wouldn't call himself the Dark Lord or praise Elven Kings. It seems more like lore that came from the events surrounding the rings, a way to remember what happened and the stories. It's not telling us why the rings were made, but what happened with them.
I'll always prefer the explanation that orcs = corrupted elves, if for no other reason than it makes drawing comparisons between orcs and irl human populations somewhat more difficult. I know there will always be comparisons that can be made between the peoples of Middle-Earth and the peoples of this Earth, but having the orcs be "of the race of men" on top of the...specific...descriptions of Easterlings, Southrons, Dunlendings, and Druedain found in the text of all three Lord of The Rings volumes is just too much for me to swallow. In my opinion, orcs = men lends credence to critics of Tolkien's work who accuse him of perpetuating eurocentric and white-supremacist worldviews, and there's already too much of that rhetoric online.
I have this pet theory that rather than corrupt elves into orcs Morgoth did something even more cruel and used elves as "breeding machines" to create his vast armies of orcs. Whatever dark sorcery he used I'll leave up to you to have nightmares about, but imagine immortal elves transformed into something utterly debased, possibly mindless drones after many milennia of abuse, maybe some dating back to the original awakening, that would be an act of truly unspeakable evil worthy of a fiend like Morgoth.
I definitely don't see them as immortal but you are right, it wouldn't make any difference. As a race pushed into war, destruction, and conflict, it would be rare to see an Orc survive for a considerable length of time.
@@TheRedBook I don't know why, but I imagined them as capable of living for perhaps a few centuries, not more than one or two, but only the mightiest of orcs would live even half that long and most of the rank-and-file would probably be lucky to reach 20 or 30.
It would make a difference in the afterlife though. If they are elves they would all go to the halls of Mando's to await their reincarnation. Which would be rather hilarious, because of the high reproduction rate of orcs, there would be much much more orc spirits than regular elves..
@@Clayne151 This is why I don't believe orcs are corrupted elves as such. I think their 'animus' is like that of an animal, reshaped by Morgoth to resemble elves and fill a similar function - as soldiers - but ultimately slaves to his will. He may have used the raw materials of both elves and beasts to create them. I doubt the process is pretty.
I think orcs don't die of old age or illness, and are functionally immortal, but due to corruption are susceptible to disease and disability. The reason they are short-lived isn't because their bodies fail, even when inundated with horrible pestilence that would kill the strongest man, it's because their society is so horribly violent. This violence and hatred was created and fomented by Morgoth and Sauron, so orcs didn't have the Grace of the elves, but neither did they have the Gift of men (mortality).
@@morpheussandman3984 You are correct. i even provide the quote in the video."indeed they appear to have been by nature short-lived compared with the span of Men of higher race, such as the Edain." Certainly not immortal.
I think some are maybe the original ones and they bred with men and those are the majority of what they are now. I'd also say most if not all original orcs have been killed
In the hobbit the orcs remember the swords from gondolin...beater and biter...and what of bolg son of azog?..a very old Orc. I think maia taking the form of orcs to lead them is unnecessary as it could be argued that orcs would be better lead by the different from themselves as they are motivated by fear
Both examples coming from The Hobbit, which doesn't fit with Tolkien's later 'mythology' in even more ways. I've never taken Orcs knowing of famous blades as them being physically around when they were first used. Figures in The Lord of the RIngs fear the One Ring and they weren't around when it was made. Bolg is another strange one but a unique example from one story. I don't think he proves anything other than Tolkien had a problem settling on the nature of Orcs or had made mistakes with dates. If Orcs like Bolg existed across all the stories, then it would be something to ponder.
I don’t get your point- Tolkien’s main problem is that Morgoth cannot create life- he can only warp or twist what was already created. So if Orcs were twisted versions of another creature, what creature would it be? Considering men are mortal, they seem like the best candidate. However men don’t show up until much later than the orcs. I don’t see how you resolved this paradox!?!
It would be a new creature, 'made' in mockery of another. Much like Trolls are said to be mockeries of Ents...it doesn't mean they are Ents, they were brought into the world in mockery of them and exist as their own thing now. I'm not going to resolve the paradox of men making the most sense without it being possible due to the chronology. I'm highlighting that issue. It's something Tolkien would have had to sort himself. I'm left having to say The SIlmarillion does not reflect Tolkien's last writings on the matter.
@@TheRedBook Thanks for the clarification. Tolkien’s problem was that he did not allow Valar to create new life- the dwarfs were like automatons until Illuvatar gave them “real life”. So he was pretty clear that Morgoth was similarly limited. I believe Tolkien specifically said Trolls were corrupted forms of Ents, so he kind of painted himself into a corner when it came to orcs. That probably explains why he never resolved the paradox he had created!
All we know in the LotRs, the last and presumedly last word on his races, that JRRT had spoken on, has two of Saurons Orcs talking about getting some trusty boys together and acting like they did BEFORE the great power (Sauron, MORGOTH?) was back on the scene -- JUST how long had these two lived to speak of this centuries ago? I rest my case
No. The Lord of the Rings isn't the last word. Tolkien wrote a lot after that. I even quote it in my video. As for the two Orcs, they could simply be talking about the time BEFORE Sauron returned to Mordor, which was decades ago. I rest my case...
It wouldn't seem right to assume orcs having a immortal lifespan. Their are just to similar to animals and beasts in their behaivour to posses the gift of immortality
They'd have to be somewhat long lived as hated and hunted as they were. To keep up there numbers they would have to breed like mad all the time. I don't think they did that in peace times
Yeah that's an trap inside which many people are caught, Tolkien's final version was that Orcs were a existing form of life which after crossbreeding with Dwarves and (especially) Men achieved the finał form we know(if I remember well). Anyway Tolkien never finished that version and there were many issues surrounding it and only because of that Christopher posted the version that Dwarves were from the Elves and that's a trap when talking of topics about Orcs.
No orc died a natural death all save the females would have died in combat hence the need to breed on mass, if orc's natural lives were so short they would not have had the numbers to breed enmass to the levels they did. In fighting and/or continued conflict with dwarves for living space under ground would be the cause of thier short life spans not natural old age, so in conclusion but for more or less constant conflict it is logical/plaisable for them to be immortal like the elves they used to be but due to the corrupted nature never reached the hall of Mandos their spirit could not be placed anew body as elves could. You could even imply that the wights (barrow wights were the spirits of orc's in habiting the dead bodies of men.)
Not necessarily, but no one has a problem with Dwarves being mortal without having the "Gift of Men", why not Orcs? Remember, the Gift of Men is more than mortality.
@@TheRedBook Two things wr0ong with this reasoning: 1) Dwarves are not Children of Illuvetar at least nor originally. Orcs are. Why? Because Melkor/Morgoth can not create only corrupt. 2) Dwarves are specifically stated to have immortal spirits that can and do reincarnate, and to to Mandos in their own halls.
@@ianchapman6254 1) Adopted children. Still, why would you not think Melkor's corruption of something would change their very nature, which is what corruption is. Also, we don't know what Orcs are. Tolkien's last thoughts on Orcs don't match what his son put in The Silmarillion. 2) All spirits are immortal. If you are speaking of Durin reincarnating then that's a contentious point in itself. You are assuming much from limited text. Dwarves believe certain things happen in their afterlife, it doesn't make it so. Point me to a source saying Dwarves are reincarnated that isn't the belief of the Dwarves that Durin himself returns.
Tolkien answered that from a quote in the video, saying they live shorter lives than the Edain. We are talking decades, or very low triple figures...not centuries or beyond. Though, strange one off cases exist that cause confusion - such as Bolg, son of Azog.
@@TheRedBook lol I meant it more in jest, like going to the Eastern front WW2 and trying to find out how long humans live. I like the idea of the Orcs only being constrained by the forces similar to the Sun (in real life, gravity and fusion create a balance), without the 2 forces they just fizzle away, after a big ass explosion. In this case the "innate" nature and the will of whichever darklord is around..
Oh yeah you're right. We are talking about old Orcs with beards but it would be interesting to see how many battles they'd actually survive. Just being thrown into conflict after conflict. Living until old age would either mean they were at the back all the time or they were the greatest warriors of their race!
