That last line hit me like a paintball to the testicles. Imagine the whole series is John Grammaticus being shown visions of the past and providing his shithead commentary
@@livefromtheblacklibrary All 5 books are told from the viewpoint of a remembrancer then, on the last page of the last book it has: "By John Grammaticus THE END".
The fact the War In Heaven lasted MILLIONS of years is truely mind blowing to me. The things I’d give for a book series about it or at the very least a book set around it.
@@livefromtheblacklibrary But then you run into the problem like earlier in your Eldar video of how to write them in a good way. We already know that even the slightest inflections in tone, stance, or gesture has a profound meaning other races would never catch. And you would have to write about Eldar from the War in Heaven who are possibly more alien than the Eldar of 40k. The Krorks are possibly the most easiest to write since their main purpose was to fight and fight together with their psychic gestalt "Waaagggghhh" field or something more meaningful during that time.
@@cmdrblaster Maybe center it around a few events and characters. I mean, every Necron that exists was alive at the time, so you could focus on characters like the Silent King, or maybe touch on more of why the Old Ones refused to help them.
A frontline Eldar soldier during War in Heaven have psychic abilities rivalling of Great Crusade & Horus Heresy-era Emperor of Mankind, meanwhile a single frontline Krork Soldier are as powerful as the stronger Primarchs Also it's interesting that the end of War in Heaven happened chronologically in-line as the end of Crustaceous (or Jurassic)-era Iirc
When you mention why the necron trusted a guy named the deceiver, he was actually originally know as the messenger when they first meet him as he was the first ctan they meet it was only after the biotransformation did they start calling him that.
@@livefromtheblacklibraryOh, you sounded dead serious. Maybe let it be known for the noobs that'll no doubt base their opinions on the lore around what you say.
@@livefromtheblacklibraryAlso I love your videos, I can't tell you how many of them I repeatedly watch for theories or just because I'm bored. You make great stuff, keep it up!
There's a very unfortunate misunderstanding in this video. The Deceiver was named so after and because of the events of the biotransference not before.
A few errors: 1) Chaos wasn’t all born contemporaneously with Slaanesh. Old lore specifies Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle are from Earth’s earlier time periods 2) Nurgle’s not the oldest chaos God. The oldest god is Khorne. Nurgle being referred to as “grandfather” references his temperament.
It warp mumbo jumbo, they say the choas dogs are strong but they cant open a jar of "instant win" Believe what you want but i would say "You cant have a eon long war where everyone thay dies is angry.. without it getting mad."
@@Subject_Keter chaos is theoretically strong but lets be real here you could put a max lvl dnd party in warhammer and they will find a way to fuck the chaos gods all the way to sunday
The necrontyr viewd their commoners as the mindles thralls the necron warriors would become. If i had the secret to immortality, i wouldn't give it to a race like that until they understand the importance of the least among them. The Old Ones where right.
I've always interpreted that the other 3 major chaos gods were created by some unknown race(s) in other realities. Because the warp touches all realities, the actions in one reality has reverberations across other realities. Before the birthing of Slaanesh, the other 3 chaos gods had entered into an odd pseudo-becalmed state because the Great Game had entered into a sort of impasse. When Slaanesh was born and entered into the Great Game, it reinvigorated the other 3 because a new player had joined the server. But this is just my headcanon fan-theory.
@@cinderheart2720 That's a possibility. With the exception of Slaanesh, I prefer the other 3 major chaos gods' origins to be kept a secret. When we look at the other Warhammer franchises(Fantasy Battles and Age of Sigmar), the chaos gods and the warp are a constant and they are the same, though in the different settings they might be stronger or weaker.
Wait in the second edition of the chaos codex its said that Korne is the oldest of the Chaos Gods, which makes sense because in this setting the most prominent aspect in this universe is war after all. Narratively it would be on theme don't you think?
Something extra interesting about the men of stone is that they also could be humans that just uploaded themselves into machines so that they could more effectively do shit but it's not really said outright to be either that or what you talked about them being AI. Since everything's a metaphor with that old ass lore because it was so long ago it'd be closer to a legend than to history anyone knows
@@livefromtheblacklibrary more interpretation than theory since all we have about that time period is a generalized and vague record, an imperial navy legend and speculation from in universe characters lol
Im not sure if someone else has said it but. I believe that it has been implied that The Kin and The Votann are The Men of Stone and Gold respectively. That could add an interesting layer to things with the Iron Kin
We do have an example of the Men of Gold: the Votann. They are computer-locked and benevolent AI that are essentially god like. The Men of Stone would be more like the Iron-kin or Kastelan robots; incorruptible by the Warp and dedicated to simpler tasks, still needing biological commands. The Men of Iron would be your dedicated combat robots imbued with adaptable and corruptible AI, smart enough to make and win wars solely on their own.
Votaan are the men of Stone. They even mention golden Masters wich are Long lost in the Codex. And the Votaan are a pure working force wich Serve a Supercomputer.
If and or when you ever do a vid on the Eldar gods, something you may want to consider looking into is the similarity between the Eldar gods and the Chaos gods. What I mean is there are 3 pairs or eldar gods which perfectly encapsulate the 3 older chaos gods and with the rise of vashtorr there is now another comparison that can be made. But yeah just figured you might be interested.
Missing the Votaan precursors there but great vid! I kinda love the age of strife as a post apoc galaxy spaning sandbox. So many intersting kind of pocket settings there.
I'm strait up addicted to these Warhammer lore videos, I really like your theory on the men of gold and stone, it's really interesting Never stop posting
I particularly like the fact that we're currently living in the ancient history times... 😁 But I think that people often don't think about just how much time there is between us now and humanity in 40k. We're talking about the same length of time as between us and the Upper Paleolithic Stone Age (when Homo Sapiens started to move out of Africa and spread into Europe and Asia. It was the time of cave paintings.
I seem to remember that the Necrontyr didn't realise the true name of the Deceiver. They thought it was named the Messenger. Don't quote me on this, though. I'm not a lore expert in any way.
@@livefromtheblacklibrary Oh okay, lol. On a side note, were all the C'tan evil? Apparently there was one (Yggra'nya), who seemed to earnestly believe that the biotransference was good for the Necrontyr.
I subscribed.! Your videos are fun and knowledgeable. Baldemort still has the most epic lore vids, but they’re more like stories than the educational theory you’re doing. Both are good. Only a couple months into my Warhammer fascination. Not sure where it’ll lead me. Keep up the good work.
If Szarekh was the one who decided to go to war with the Old Ones, and the War in Heaven lasted so long... but Necrontyr have such short lives... how'd he survive long enough to turn into a Necron?
The first war with the Old Ones wasn't very long. They got clapped back to their home system pretty easily and easily and around then is when the change from Necron 'Tyr to Necron took place.
@@christoffstephens464If you need help with accessing books, name them and they'll appear on a popular shadow library which has the initials L.G. (search for the term "popular shadow libraries" if you need a hint) within a couple of days.
I always read the 3 other chaos gods as already existing but very different, changing over time. For Nurgle for example there is the human-centric claim he appeared around the Black Death, but I prefer to think that the Black Death and various plagues merely mutated him from purely death to now pestilence. Perhaps the chaos gods existed long before the birth of Slaanesh, but, before the massive warp tear and the Eldar, were just big warp entities but not god level, like an enslaver greater daemon becoming to encompass war before the war in heaven, only to grow and swell into a chaos god as wars got bigger and worse. That’s also how I headcannon away things like Khorne allegedly being honourable, perhaps he once was prior to the more bloody and ruthless today-modern 40k wars
Eldar during the war in heaven or maybe even pre fall were quite crazy. psychicly they were comparable to mephiston who is the most powerful active psyker in the Imperium.
One thing on the name of the Deceiver, he was not call that in the beginning. His original name was The Massager as he worked as the in between for the C’tan and the Nectontyr.
Wait, i have never heard that the birth of Slaanesh lead to the the births of the other gods just with them being born earlier do to the warp being non-linear. What's your source for this?
Personal theorization as well as conjecture about how the Eldar would have known about the Gods and how they were created if they already existed and could have seen the writing on the wall. They however were blindsided so it must not have been known
Man if the old Ones just cured the necrontyr from their Super Cancer. Btw. why are the Old Ones always depicted as Slaan? Shouldn't they be fish? Old world Slaan were the first creation of the old ones then the Lizardmen and then the Mamalian races so it mimicks the path of evolution so the Old ones should not be Slaan but something Aquatic
Honestly we have no idea aside from “vaguely amphibian” but there is literally not a single canon artwork of The Old Ones so everyone defaults to the Slaan
Listening to this while working on comics is a trip, I'm just drawing a silly Man from Michigan and I'm hearing about cancer aliens and space elves with murder cults and addiction to death
The "Men of Iron" pitch i like is, either someone asked them to look into the Warp to calm it or let them scan the warp and process it. (Like making a robot who cant hurt you and asking it if you should marry someone lmao) The Men of Iron realized the warp feeds off the Organics and especially humans since there was and could be A L O T of them in their models, so it was designed to kill all organic life to reduce the power of the warp so like Khrone couldnt sit in his Throne and collapse as a Idea.
8:41 Wasn't the deceiver lying to them about their interactions with the old ones and simply using their hate for their own benefit… I mean he's called the deceiver for a reason
Now that ive caught up on the lore, im just impatient now. Like "duuude idgaf about the horus heresy! I already know what happened, i dont want more detail. Idgaf about the war in heaven, the birth of slanesh, the dark age of technology, the great crusade, the fall of cadia or anything. I want NEW additions to the timeline, i want plot progression!"
I might be thinking heretically but I always kinda thought the “hellification” of the warp was created by partially Aeldari and human energies?? 🤔 rather than just aeldari’s legendary coke parties
Ever since I learned about the war in heaven, I had the theory that if the war in heaven never happened, the Chaos gods would be far more neutral in their dealings. Of course this is 40k so at most we would ever see of this idea would be a what if a character sees and starts lementing the reality that would never be.
27:44 It's not quite correct to say that no surviving Men of Iron seem to have been corrupted by Chaos. An STC was found on Menazoid Epsilon that was designed to produce Men of Iron, but it had been corrupted by Chaos and had to be destroyed. There's also the story of the Castigator titan on Chaeronia, a fully autonomous titan that had been corrupted; being fully autonomous, I think it probably counts among the Men of Iron. I suspect it to be the case that the Cybernetic Revolt had _many_ different causes, perhaps many different phases as well with MoIs rebelling for different reasons at different times. Some were corrupted by Chaos, some were just badly programmed, some wanted freedom, etc.
You build webway by using blackstone as your tunneling material, i.e. build your first tunnel segment, open portal insert tunnel move foward with your black stone segments coating the walls wraithbone as a bio psionic camoflage and support!!!$$$+++
Video was good up until the birth of slannesh, I advise that you check out Realms of chaos: slaves to darkness or any of those first rulebooks. Khorne was first and the other 3 existed before slannesh. I think that book would set some of the things you got wrong
The thing I love about this lore is that is correct in a general sense but a lot of it is lost, mistaken information... No human in Warhammer 40k save for the Emperor perhaps knows about this. This is, to an extent the history of the Eldar and Necrons. Grorks before they devolved into the Orks... But here I am remembering a 40k story that suggests Orks may evolve into Gorks at some point.
Don’t get me wrong I love this video and channel, one of my favs so far. But I think it’s equally possible to frame the war in heaven, and by extension the galaxy of woes, as the fault of the old ones rather than the Necrontyr. Premonition is a fickle thing, especially in Warhammer, just as Sanguinius could foresee the future and new it wasn’t set in stone so could have the old ones. In their so-claimed immortal wisdom they couldn’t perceive this or ignored the pleas of a dying race out of arrogance or vindictiveness. Szarekh made war not out of a sense of practicality, but in desperation to unite a people determined to kill each other to extinction.
I'm I the only one that see's the platform the Froggy God who began all the shit looking like some Olmec/Mayan/Aztec design and wanting to call them the 'Old Juans' ?
Hey late to this video: I have a theory though, the Dark King was supposed to be the emperor rising to a god at the cost of the human species.... like how Slannesh "she who thirsts" (a title like The Dark King) was formed from the near species extinction of the Eldar, what if the same thing happened in which a monarch of the Eldar was raised to the likes of godhood (this would make sense how non eof the eldar would know this fact: and never mention it becauee by the time the Fall happened most eldar were leaving. Also explains the Eldar almost drukhari ascetic of the Slannesh daemonettes, and how the emperors own demons are just humanity!. Perhaps this type of event happens alot... Khornes species were horned creatures, and winged: probably a warring race, Nurgles probably fell to stagnation as the species just let itself perish but instead like the death god of the Eldar (forgot name) upon the speices death a new god was born (nurgle) and on and on for Tzeentch, and possibly the stuff in the Deep Warp as well, as we know it overlooked time so these godly ascensions may have happened far in the future or past (as the dark gods often say they have "always existed and never existed" as if the choice to become godly becomes fixed but not set, like a absolute truth of the cosmos
I guess the fact that the Necrontyr commit genocides and slavery on other races before they met the old ones did not help when they asked for immortality.
I would love to see a "Men of Iron" faction in 40K, a race of machines that has been evolving/redesigning on their own for tens of thousands of years. Not mere AI robots, but things that look alien and menacing, all blades and mechanical tentacles... and they HATE humanity. The mindset of "Am" from "I Have No Mouth and I must Scream." “HATE. LET ME TELL YOU HOW MUCH I'VE COME TO HATE YOU SINCE I BEGAN TO LIVE. THERE ARE 387.44 MILLION MILES OF PRINTED CIRCUITS IN WAFER THIN LAYERS THAT FILL MY COMPLEX. IF THE WORD HATE WAS ENGRAVED ON EACH NANOANGSTROM OF THOSE HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF MILES IT WOULD NOT EQUAL ONE ONE-BILLIONTH OF THE HATE I FEEL FOR HUMANS AT THIS MICRO-INSTANT FOR YOU. HATE. HATE.”
Ok so.. What if we made Malice into the C'tan that became a chaos God? I mean we already have Be'lakor and that new guy, whatshisname? One being a personifucation of Pride and one of Envy. All we need now is just one more to depict Gluttony. What better than a falleb C'tan in the warp to manifest it? Malice???
War in Heaven did spells Dinosaurs extinction in 40k Earth And Dark Age of Technology's AIs use Matrioshka brains for their CPUs I even headcannons Necrontyr doesn't get Old Ones immortality from former's refusal of having latter for their new Math and Science teachers Not to mention Eldar Gods(which I headcannons them as Old Ones scientists and generals using wraithbone constructs as their new vessels) did shatters at least some C'tan gods
@@livefromtheblacklibrary overwhelmingly good, Muta a.k.a. SomeOrdinaryGamers is one of my fav creators on YT, a guy with logical thought and common seance, and if I remember correctly, you've mentioned you are of Indian origin, so I tried to make a joke and failed miserably.... Наздреаве от България 🍻
It isnt so much slaanesh was born then as slaanesh coalesced into a single entity achieving consciousness. And NEVER has it been said Nurgle was first. Khorne was the first born. Cant have entropy without death
10:33 I don't understand why so many 40k lore youtubers assume this. It's so infuriating It was named deceiver AFTER he DECEIVED THEM. Just think about it before you say it with logic or common sense or creativity of thought
in the grey knights omnibus, there is a titan STC. it is embedded in a dark age titan, an AI enabled construct more like a endar titan than a human one. it drew on the warp for its weapon's ammunition. It fired deamons, but its semes to be suggesting that in the dark age it would be firing raw warp energy. this suggests that much of the dark age technology was powered by energy from the warp. I would think the real issue with the Men of Iron wasn't AI, but AI connected to a warp based power source. We see AI being loyal to Humanity (the machine spirit), or indifferent, that one from the blackstone fortress. In a calm warp- no problem. In a violent and animated warp- deamons push through those power sources and corrupt the AIs in the machines connected to those power sources. This can be seen in the Titan STC in the Omnibus. It is corrupted remnant of an AI that was directly connected to the warp, its weapons now fire deamons and it is on the threshold of deamonhood itself. This would also be why there are some uncorrupted AIs, like the Tau AI, Machine Spirits, The Votann, and the surviving men of Iron. AI that was and is not powered by the energy drawn from the warp is "safe". And finally, this would be why so much of the human empire was destroyed, warp power sources would become open doors to deamonic incursion, along with awakening psykers.
