Thank you so much! I know I didn’t go into too much depth, there is a lot to be said about these characters. They deserved to have a video devoted to their relationship. 🙂
@@PensiveWhiskers and that's what this video is about, digging into each character or their respective relationship with sires, souls and slayers deserve their own video. This is a perfect video for these 2 idiots 😂
Once again a great video! I agree with everything you said. I always thought that the reason their relationship is so compelling is because of the history of it all. They are not just friends, there is so much more there. Like the kind of father/son relationship (or the other kinds of relations) which I hadn't really thought about before. And of course their bickering and acting like an old married couple is comedic gold. Love your work!
Yes! Their history together makes their relationship incredibly interesting, and multi-layered. It's also fascinating how they can go from a bickering married couple to beating each other to pulp. Hot take but I wish Spike made more appearances on Angel the show rather than Buffy because I think his character brings out a lot of things for Angel.
10:12 to 10:18 I believe this can be explained in several ways. I think Angel’s soul was restored in perfect condition as a result of the curse to maximize his suffering. Spike on the other hand gets his soul completely willingly and unconditionally. Spike even tells Buffy that his soul is “a bit worse for lack of use.” My best guess is that the soul doesn’t over power the demon, so much as it merges with the demon. This also raises the question of: when someone becomes a vampire, are there an infinite number of demons waiting to take the body, or does them turning into a vampire create the demon? I would think it creates the demon, (because the person is for all intents and purposes dead since no Vampire naturally has a soul,) because they still have all the memories and some parts of the person’s personality. In the end, both Angel and Spike loved Buffy. But Spike was ultimately the better fit for Buffy, mainly because he got his soul just to prove his love for her.
I think Angel is the better fit since Spike & Buffy's wasn't very romantic or comforting, simply sex and using eachother. Spike did willingly get his soul back but without knowing what was to come of it. Meanwhile Angel gave up his humanity for Buffy and was ready to go back to hell for her.
Personally, I love how Spike tells Angel he’s the reason Spike was so evil. As we know, vampires by default are evil by nature, but even vampires older than Spike and Angel aren’t as evil as them, and Angel was the most evil. It’s because he saw evil and death as art, while William was more of a poet in life, and this aspect followed him into his unlife, and this is exemplified in his relationships. For Dru, he saw she was attracted to Angelus because he was evil, so he decided to become bad for her, but it was also Angelus who truly destroyed whatever human remained in Spike. For Buffy, he got his soul back to “become” what she deserved, and this desire was more powerful for him than his love of violence and his demonic urges. He couldn’t be a monster because he loved like a man too much and he couldn’t be a man because he was a monster. He blames Angel for becoming a monster because he encouraged and molded him into being his dark reflection, as a way to “live with himself.” Edit: you say that Spike and Angelus are different from who they were in life, but they’re more of that they were. Liam was a hedonist, who chased pleasure to the detriment and embarrassment of his father. This is why he became an “artist” as a vampire, because the complete destruction of a human being is his art, and death and blood is his paint, with the person being the canvas. He never looked away from the victim because the victim was why he was doing what he was doing, and that’s why he’s so guilt ridden with a soul. William was a poet, a fool for love, and this was his most prominent trait in his unlife. He became as evil as he could because he wanted Dru to love him, and become good because of Buffy. The main difference between those two extremes is that, after falling for Buffy, Spike actually formed true connections with her friends and became their friend, willing to lay down his life for them if need be. He also didn’t see his victims as victims because everything he did as a vampire was a big party to him, with people at partiers or cake, just doing evil for the rush and fight, while Angelus did everything for the evil, and it’s why he was so guilt ridden with a soul while Spike wasn’t
Spike could have been Armony 1.0 if he hadn't been "raised" by Angel, but the bad example of his Sire and his vampire "family" transformed him into a bloodthirsty monster. In fact, once in contact with decent and "human" people, his personality calmed down and began to block his more violent instincts, he remained a vampire with vampiric desires but eliminated his unnecessary and excessive sadism. With more decent and less violent leadership, bloodthirsty William would never have existed.
Bull. Spike would've been a murderer who enjoyed killing with or without Angel in his life. And trying to say "well, he wouldn't have been as bad" is ridiculous. His victims still would've been just as dead. Spike had a bad habit of trying to blame other people for the things HE did. And I have little respect for characters trying to pin their own bad behavior on other people. It's not admirable or cute. It's just refusing to take responsibility for your own actions. Luckily, the show got this because part of his arc was growing out of the whole "I did the bad thing, but it was YOUR fault" thing he sometimes did, and he was actually accepting that HE was responsible for the way he was and the things HE did.
@@DaniJay-fk8qr this is both true and false. Yes, Spike still would have been a killer had Angelus not been in his life, but we’ve seen vampires far older than Angelus and Spike and they weren’t half as evil as them, so Spike probably would have been like that rather than what he was, and most of his victims would probably still be alive. As I said, what a vampire was in life influences who they’ll be in their unlife, and William was a poet, so he’d probably be mild as a vampire without Angelus in his life
@@DaniJay-fk8qr Спайк был бы средней степени агрессивности вампиром. Вы же не обвиняете волков в жестокости только потому, что они хотят есть и загоняют добычу, верно? вот тоже самое.
Brilliant interpretation I always thought the same that angel/liam hated spike because he was a walking talking reminder of what he was, your narration was brilliant
@0:143 It’s interesting how Angelus saw Spike’s thirst for public violence unnecessary because it resulted them to get forced into hiding. But in the Passions episode, Spike felt that Angelus’ taunting of Buffy was an unnecessary risk that was only making her angry.
I think Spike became more careful because of Drusilla’s failing health and then his own injuries later on. He did enjoy sewing chaos in Sunnydale, but Buffy handed his ass to him and he had to simmer down to protect Dru and himself.
I'm really loving your videos! :) I fell off of Angel right around the time Spike came in because the show had gotten very convoluted. I always felt i should go back to it because Spike was one of my favourite characters on Buffy (barring the incident), maybe I should ^^
Hey! Thank you! I would give Angel season 5 a chance. For me, Angel season 3 and 4 became too much as the show started to feel very plot heavy. Season 5 did a 180, I think it might be the strongest Angel season. They had to wrap up the show quickly though, so the last 2 episodes feel rushed.
I always had a theory that much of Angels resentment is because spike reminds him of Liam. Liam was a drunk, loved a good fight and was impulsive. Spike after becoming a vampire acted much like Liam. I think spike was a constant reminder for Angelus because he represented Angelus before his infamy. Before he became the most evil vampire of all time. While angel is reminded that being a dumb kid. Who's impulsive behavior. Lead to countless lives being taken.
great video. Joss Whedon might be a bad dude in real life but he is a gifted writer. You just can't do these sort of deep dives into the characters of many other shows. I find myself relating to Spike far more. I'm the sensitive artsy type person but I think if I ever dived down and lived out my darkest impulses that I would be far more like Spike than Angel. Very impulsive and all about immediate gratification. It's a very interesting Yin Yang thing. Liam is like that in his real life but when he becomes a vampire he feels the need to try and elevate himself and take the violence to a more artistic refined level, but Spike is a sensitive poet at heart so when he becomes a monster he just wants a quick hit of dopamine. A truly fascinating tv show, you just don't get tv and film like that anymore.
Thank you! I agree! This show is a goldmine for character analysis. The best show to grace television, in my biased opinion. I haven't done that many Buffy character analysis videos because these characters intimidate me. I feel like they become even more interesting when I focus on them individually.
Joss is a "bad dude"? Why? Who did he kill? I think the hate for Whedon is way out of spec. So he cheated on his wife, like how many other men have done? And it's hard to blame him, considering he hadn't had women throwing themselves at him before he was recognized as "someone", which shows how superficial women can be. And his being so supposedly so tyrannical that he yelled at people on set is hardly enough to qualify him as a bad person. He is human, with flaws like the rest of us. That people elevated him to some kind of ideal that he didn't measure up to was not his fault. (And fwiw, Charisma Carpenter seems like a total prima donna. She changed her look without telling anyone and got pregnant in the midst of filming with her being a regular character on a hit show that consequently had to be rewritten to accommodate those things? I would have been pissed at her too. She sounds like playing Cordelia wasn't too much of a stretch from her real personality.) Some people are just not as socially adept as others, and Whedon seems like that to me. The fact that he was in a position of power might have made it harder to work for him than someone who was more charismatic or charming by nature (like James Marsters), but I think it's a big stretch to say he's a bad person. The Bible suggests people should not only be slow to give offense, but also to take it, but a lot of folks never pay attention to that second part when they are busy judging. It's not like he was so terrible that no one was willing to come back and work with him multiple times after they knew what he was like. I certainly wouldn't mind putting up with some of his toxic traits for the opportunity to be a part of a show like Buffy TVS. He's a great writer and he clearly is someone who likes to use the people who work well with him again and again. He also, like Louis C.K., is able to recognize his own privilege and advocate for those who aren't as privileged, and has more awareness of the human condition and as evidenced by their art, some empathy. His art was some of the better portrayals of how people can be. Maybe that's part of the reason he is so vilified by corporate media? (And don't even get me started on how ridiculous people were in response to the accusations against Louis C.K. - judging even without reading the accounts themselves - none of the accusers willing own their own agency in their supposed predicaments when all they had to say was no. So what if it means that he might not like them afterwards? That's how being a grown up works, not everyone will like you. They don't have to. But they may still respect you even so, if you act with integrity. Some of those women were trading on their sexuality in hopes of it earning them career opportunity and were mad that they didn't get paid like whores for acting like them. Louis should never have apologized for what he did. He asked for consent and its on them for giving it unwillingly in hopes of earning favor. Women should not expect men to not ask for things they want or not believe believe them when they say what they do want, whether they say yes or no. If no means no, then yes means yes. We can't have it both ways. Those women playing victim are the reason why men think we can't be trusted to know what we want.)
@@UpRoaryus, the minute you more or less said, "Well, yeah, he cheated on his wife by sleeping with young women who worked for him over whom he had extreme power. But, I mean, who could blame him. Any guy in his shoes would've taken advantage of the situation, am I right?" I pretty much lost all interest in the rest of the post, and stopped reading the excuses. Personally, I will go to bat any time anyone tries to pretend Joss isn't a great writer who created some amazing stuff. I also think many of the beliefs he claimed to have and was so admired for were and are totally real. But that doesn't change the fact that some of the things he did were messed up as all hell, and no amount of excuses will change that.
i always find myself thinking about the fact that spike kind of goes out of his way to make angelus a staple figure in his life (calling him his sire, saying he made him a monster) even though it was drusilla who turned him, in this kind of reverent way almost, the way you treat someone you worship. and the way that (to me at least) spike was always looking for some kind of attention from angelus, and then there was that clear cut betrayal in their first interaction when spike confronted him and told him that he knew angel had a soul. there was this statement i read once from a writer in the fandom who said that "spike had to have loved angelus in order to change for him." and i think about that from time to time. you made me think about it again these two are my absolute favorite dynamic (and ship) in the buffyverse. i see a lot of people in the fandom look at their relationship with a very black and white lens. you really hit all the notes and this was such an amazing watch.
Thank you! I think they have a really complicated dynamic and I'm sure I didn't cover all of it, but it was fun to scratch the surface. I feel like the show portrayed an interesting emotional bond between them even if they can't stand each other at times. It is implied that Spike sought out Angelus' approval and it seems like Angelus did genuinely enjoy Spike's presence. Thank you so much for watching. :)
God, I love your videos❤ I find it an interesting idea that Angelus was a kind of father figure for Spike. Angelus hurting those who he loves as a dark expression is also a great notion.
Thank you! I think the fanged four had an interesting family dynamic happening, which I hope someone explores one day. Drusilla was very big on family, so she usually pointed out the familial relations between the 4.
Hahaha, that is a good idea. I like the 4 of them together. I will need to do more research into these characters, but I would love to explore them in more detail.
10:15 One difference between Spike and Angel reactions to gaining a soul is that Spike would kill indiscriminately understanding that it is something he does because he is/was a vampire, where Angel would seek out and target his victims to torture and torment them with his cruelty. Angel carries the weight of those actions in his guilt.
It always strikes me, as much as I love both as deep layered characters, Angel was given his 'soul' unwillingly and tormented by it for many decades before deciding to do good, whereas Spike did good even without a soul and then sought out his soul willingly to do much greater good. Obviously they both did bad things, but Spike was always more tragic and always the better man.
There an episode in Angel series 2 where he saves the woman in the hotel in the 1950s because she's nice to him. I think between that and Buffy is why he fights for humans
@@PensiveWhiskers Im going with Caveman 😂 But no all jokes aside I watched Buffy and Angel when they first aired and Angel was a side character but became my favorite and then season 2 "School hard" Happened and Spike all day🤘 Meet James multiple times waiting on meeting David someday 🙏 But again this video just sum's up why they are my favorite's in that Universe! 👏 Phenomenal video 💯
I watched your interview with Charisma Carpenter. So jealous! She seems like such a sweet person. I need to check out your video with James Marsters. I also watched Buffy and Angel when the shows first aired. I have such a soft spot for all of the characters. I was also a huge fan of Angel and then Spike (still a big fan of both). Buffy will always be my favorite show. ☺
@@PensiveWhiskers Omg Thank You 🙏 I actually got a zoom with Charisma in a few weeks so can't wait for that and I will be hanging out with James as Galaxycon in July love that man's stories 🤘
Spike and angel do have a unique relationship unfortunately i didn't like season 5 that much totally agree that there relationship with their parents did shaped them
I get what you mean; when I first saw Angel season 5, I didn't think much of it. I thought it was fine. After many years, on my last rewatch, I developed a stronger appreciation of that season. I found that they explored a lot of interesting philosophical ideas that I didn't notice before. That of course doesn't always correlate with the entertainment factor or how people feel about the plotlines.
That is a good suggestion! Have you seen Rachel Macdonald's video on Dawn? I thought it was very good. I will probably cover her down the line but since there is a video out there on her, she is a little bit further down on the list.
I love Spike and-angel but I have to say spike won in the comics he won Buffy. I’m not that sorry because I love Spike and Buffy more sorry but I’m not.
That Spike and Buffy junk keeps me from wanting to ever see season 6 and 7 again. It was so garbage and certainly fan service for fan girls. Yuck and it completely ruined Spike for me. I didn't like him again until season 5 of Angel. Angel and Buffy is over the top crazy too, and I'm glad both got over her. The comics... yeah that's nothing but fanfiction as far as I'm concerned.
@@WesleyWyndam-Pryce oh how cute no thanks bye your opinion is wrong and not valid. I will be blocking you. No I will not. I will not have disrespect. Thank you.
