Angry New York ATC argues with Aer Lingus pilot [ATC Audio] 

Look, if an Irishman is worried about rain, listen.

I seem to be addicted to watching things I don't understand

“Nervous?” “Yes. Very.” “First time?” “No, I've been nervous lots of times.”

"this isnt my first time in New York and this isnt my first time in an aircraft good day," Fucking savage

The pilot has the final say concerning the safety of his aircraft.

What do pilots and air traffic controllers have in common? If the pilot screws up, the pilot dies. If the air traffic controller screws up, the pilot dies.

I’ve been a commercial airline pilot for almost 30 yrs, I was based out of JFK for years and I can say this much : first, that controller was way out of line. It doesn’t matter what clearance Aer Lingus accepted originally it’s the responsibility of those pilots to maintain a safe distance from weather. That’s precisely what they tried to do. The ATC controller is on the ground- he’s not flying the airplane. All he did was attempt to convince Aer Lingus to do something unsafe and after his attempt was refuted he attempted to punish the Lingus pilots. If that scenario happened to me I’d absolutely be talking to that controllers boss and ensuring he be trained not to do that again. Being a controller is a tough job and I respect what they do, but this guy needs to be re trained. Period. No debate.

You could tell by his response after “my boss will call your boss”, this wasn’t the first complaint he’s gotten. Downplaying serious weather and putting pressure on a pilot to approach despite what his instruments are telling him is unacceptable to say the least. Should be suspended and fired if it continues.

"You got yourself into this" Only a JFK controller could say that.

No clue why I watch these whenever they are in the many recommended. Not even the slightest clue what’s happening

The best thing about not being a pilot anymore is that I don’t have to deal with ATC wise guys! Never let anyone on the ground talk you into a bad decision!

These Aer Lingus pilots are always so calm, proficient and professional. Always a pleasure hearing them handle difficult situations on this channel.

It seems like most ATC arguments come from JFK Airport

Weather changes fast! Just because one airplane or many airplanes made it through safely doesn’t mean you will. Good job on the pilot for doing what he thought was safe for his crew and passengers.

"There are not many options in New York." That's the truth. I took the best option ever in 1975... I moved out.

I get that the pilots accepted the departure clearance but clearly after takeoff they encountered something which made them uneasy, and safety has to always come first. I know that ATC is a very stressful job, especially somewhere like NY, but it was extremely unprofessional to speak to the pilot that way, and even potentially dangerous because there are crashes that have happened because of bad decisions made by angry pilots. The controller handled this horribly and the pilots did the right thing when they felt that the situation was not safe.

Coming from an ATC of 17+ years working in New York and another level 12 facility this is extremely unprofessional. New York controllers always seem to think that they are above everyone else, it’s a shame

“Its not my first day in new york, Its not my first day in an aircraft. I did what I had to do. Good day” - EPIC !! respect

At the end of the day the pilot is responsible for the safety of his aircraft. he did the right thing, by not being bullied into a flight path he did not want to take , for safety reasons ( weather )

Even reading the subtitles, I can hardly keep up with the rush of information, how do these guys understand and comprehend each other???

This ATC seems to be under the illusion that he can command pilots to ignore their own air craft readings to make him happy. To him it's just about doing a job, to the pilot it's about not exposing his passengers and crew to credible risk. Respect to the pilot.

The type of ATC is intimidating. This way of talking to pilots has proven to be a factor in aircraft crashes. IF THE PILOT SAYS I DON’T WANT TO GO INTO THE WEATHER CELL!!!! Mr ATC man, you have to accommodate his request, it’s his aircraft and his responsibility to keep it safe. Well done Mr Pilot.

*Cockpit door opens:* "Just wanna tell you both.. Good luck, we're all counting on you."

Pretty scary that an atc’s attitude on any given day could potentially get a bunch of people killed😐

I am interested in how the Boss to Boss Conversation went.

The flight was to Dublin, it sounds like he was using the GREKI SIX standard instrument departure (SID), which is excerpted: TAKEOFF RUNWAYS 22L/R: Climb heading 224°, thence . . . . * GATEWAY CLIMB: Climbing right turn to intercept the JFK R-232 until 5 DME, then turn left heading 219°, thence . . . . . . . . via RADAR vectors to GREKI, maintain 5000. Expect clearance to filed altitude/flight level ten (10) minutes after departure Thus: (1) This departure is not a simple instrument departure with headings known on the ground, as a pilot you should expect to get heading information just after switching from Tower to Departure. RADAR is required for this departure, i.e., talking to ATC and getting vectors. (2) Flying the runway heading is what the pilot should expect to do, as per the SID and the tower's takeoff clearance. (A busy airport will sequence departures with different headings of 10-20 degrees difference.) (3) The pilot was trying to get to GREKI because that's a key waypoint to start the main climb. Everything prior to GREKI is ATC vectoring you around traffic and weather towards GREKI. FYI, GREKI is an "intersection" in Connecticut about 5 NE of Danbury, or more precisely Carmel (CMK) 057 radial at 17 NM. (4) Yes, lots of other departures out of JFK are using GREKI SIX (northern departure to Atlantic Ocean via Danbury CT), MERIT SIX (middle departure over Merit Parkway in CT), and HAPIE SIX (departure along Long Island South Shore), I've flown in this area, including in bad weather, with busy traffic around JFK. And I've flown in lots of crappy weather, including asking ATC for info from their weather radar in advance of our position. One time, it took 45 minutes - turning every direction of the compass - to corkscrew ourselves out of NY Approach. The pilot is Pilot In Command, responsible for all decisions and consequences. I've heard ATC become irritated when they wanted a pilot to do one thing, and the pilot says "unable", such as a pilot declining a a shorter parallel for a longer parallel runway (what ATC didn't know was the loading of the plane, the plane's particular requirements, and the pilot's own "minimums"). If a pilot says "unable", ATC needs to respect that and find other options, such as three turns in a hold before heading to GREKI. It seems plausible that the pilot, while on the ground, was unaware of the severity of the cell he was being turned into. While the pilot accepted the clearance, it would be normal to expect various heading changes within the New York area until he reached GREKI intersection and then he would expect to receive clearance to his filed flight plan. I think ATC could have been a bit more patient: the pilot is dealing with an imminent weather problem (which can become a safety problem) and the pilot is seeking to resolve this immediately. The pilot is NOT doing this to annoy ATC or give ATC a hard time. After the third turn in a hold (with GREKI just a short distance away, which would be less complicated from that point onward), it was reasonable for the pilot to ask ATC, in essence, how long do you expect us to hold here? ATC's response didn't need to have "attitude", ATC could have said "I have about a half dozen aircraft we're trying maneuver around the weather, so it's going to take me about 5-10 minutes (or whatever number) to get your aircraft into the sequence", which is the normal kinda back-and-forth between pilots and ATC during busy periods. Lastly, from a regulatory perspective, the pilot was within his right to refuse an instruction from ATC that the pilot could not perform safely: visual "see and avoid" takes priority over instrument clearances and ATC's instructions, even when in Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC).

Every time a controller tries to bully me into flying through a bad weather area under the guise of “well, the last guys were ok” I think of Delta 191 in Dallas.

Do you have the recording of the boss to boss conversation? 😅 I’ll travel with that Pilot any day!

Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue!

Very unprofessional air traffic controller and excellent job from the pilot. Safety FIRST.

I do wish mic manufacturers would change their designs so that pilots who love blowing air into the mic are prevented from this in the future.

Ok, I get it that New Yorkers can be incredibly rude. That’s New York. You can also meet really friendly people. It’s a city of extremes. But rudeness by ATC potentially puts passengers at risk by stressing pilots. For that reason alone it should be clamped down on, hard.

When I was first learning to fly, my instructor said to me, the hell with what the tower thinks you should do! They are not the ones up here flying and dealing with getting the plane on the ground. At the end of the day, the tower people walk outside and go home.

No doubt that the NY area controllers are overworked and underpaid, but I have to say, I found them to be the rudest controllers I have ever worked with. US, Mexico, Canada encompassed all my flying and I NEVER experienced anything like their airspace management anywhere else. For all the commenters wanting to defend the controller, please understand that the controller does NOT at ANY time control the aircraft. The Pilot in Command controls the aircraft. The controller can issue direction, but his directions can and will ALWAYS be overruled by the Pilot in Command if that PIC deems the controllers directions to be unsafe. If the PIC did not think it prudent to fly through that weather, then THAT is the final decision. The controller doesn't have to like it. In fact, as we see here, the controller was forced to do some serious shucking and jiving to make adjustments to accommodate this flight. Having said that, the controller has lots of other traffic to manage, especially in that insanely crowded and compact bit of airspace. Both controller and PIC are actually doing the right thing here. I would wager this kind of thing goes on regularly. The difference is the way the controller is chastising the pilot over the radio. For those wondering, that is also NOT his job.

That's all you need an ATC controller with an anger management issue.....these people are supposed to bring calm to the job & to minimise the risk of big mistakes !!...I'd get this guy in for a lot more retraining.

When you look and listen to this you have to ask yourself: "How is it that 100 planes a day don't crash?" I am an engineer and this is just mind boggling!

The ATC voice changed from 180degree to cry baby when the pilot says my boss will contacting ur boss , before that he’s acting so arrogant , well done Mr. Pilot

Jesus, what a nightmare. I’m with the Air Lingus Heavy on this one. Do what you have to do, fly the plane safely.

4:05 “And before I go…” *swallows microphone*

Can you imagine the reaction of the passengers as to why the plane is going in circles right after takeoff lol

Pilot was right here. ATC has no business telling the pilot that he’ll be fine to fly through a cell because everyone else did it.

NY ATC: if a pilot says he cannot turn towards a weather cell; well guess what.... he can't. He's not doing it to make your life difficult, he is making a safety decision based on information he is receiving in an ever fluid environment. Don't be a prat! We appreciate your airspace constraints, but: 1. We pilots are not "up here", because you're "down there". It's the other way around; get off your high horse and provide the service you're paid to provide! 2. English is not everyone's first language. Your non-standard ATC "lingo" (in many cases), combined with your accent and Mach 3 clearances can be difficult for non-native English speaking pilots to understand. Speak slower, stick to standard phraseology and exercise some patience when someone doesn't get it right, first time. You work at ONE airfield, ONE set of procedures. We, fly to MANY airfields on MANY continents, all with different procedures. Work with us, not against us!

One thing you get from watching these videos...being an ATC seems like an insanely stressful job 😅

Although the controller is right about accepting the departure clearence, weather is dynamic and risk can never be forecast. Safety is a point in time consideration for which the pilot is ultimately responsible and ATC must support. That considered, it is my conclusion the ATC acted unproffessionally.

"I did what I had to do." -which was draw a little ☘️ in the sky before I left. Cheers!

Speaking as an aviation weather observer at an airport, we get ATCs occasionally calling us asking us to increase the visibility we are reporting. The answer from us, obviously, is no way! If we did that and reported a visibility than what it actually is and then there is an aircraft mishap, we would get the blame. Safety should always come before convenience when people's lives are at stake. The pilot made the right call in this case.

seems like part of the reason atc was holding him in so many circles was because he pissed him off... "make the turn or you'll land nice and easy sometime before Christmas!"

Every other pilots in the same frequency: *”Gimme that cuppa coffee, I gotta turn up the volume*

If the pilot says he can’t do it he can’t do it! They fly the aircraft and we fly the radar. Many airlines have different perimeters for weather avoidance. As a retired ATC I would suggest routes thru weather but never penalize aircraft for not accepting the route.

Controller got pissed very quickly! Unprofessional

My instructors beat it into me that as pilot-in-command, you are the SOLE arbiter of how you fly the airplane. You have sole responsibility for the safety of the aircraft, your passengers and crew. If you slavishly do what ATC says and it puts you down, it's gonna be on you...

I never would have thought I could be raging mad at an air traffic controller… But here I am. 🤷🏻‍♂️

That pilot was extremely professional with his words at the end. I bet the controller was worried

This pilot retained his composure, remained professional & respectful throughout. Even in his closing statement 👏🏾

Love the back & forth between the tower & pilots, I am also amazed @ their confidence in each other.

I wouldn’t be an ATC or a pilot for a million dollars. With all of the radio traffic, I can’t believe there haven’t been more accidents. My stomach was churning while listening to this audio.

Yeah, because ATC has never steered an aircraft directly into danger. Oh... wait.

Surprise surprise, another situation made worse by a New York controller's inability to remain calm and professional...

That controller needs to be fired, always aggressive, always arguing, obviously in the wrong job!

Love how flustered he gets after the pilot says “my boss will be in contact with your boss”

Like the pilot's last remarks "It's not my first day in New York, it's not my first day in an aircraft".

Got to agree that the ATC was wrong. A pilot should never fly anywhere he is uncomfortable flying.

Why do people that play video games have better mics than than pilots.

Bottom line, the pilot is operating an aircraft in that weather, and the controller is sitting safely indoors in his office chair. I'll defer to the pilot on the weather issue.

He got trapped into a shamrock shaped holding pattern...

Avianca 52 crashed because the pilots were intimidated by the new york controllers (one of the causes). They really need to adjust their attitude, if the pilot is worried about a cell, don't try to force them through it, just because other aircraft came through it unscathed, doesn't mean yours will

That controller sounds like a typical New Yorker to me

If I get into these situations I just say standby, and come back on after 10 seconds to tell ATC that I have just checked my license and it doesn’t say “Test Pilot” anywhere on it.

The pilot is facing a minute to minute changing environment " up there"..he had so many variables to factor in...the controller should understand that..at the same time the controller too is handling so many things all at once..and will take timely decisions on basis of what he feels is best..so both professionals should respect that..of each others job functions... thanks for sharing!!!

Good for you Aer Lingus!! You were trying to avoid flying through some shitty weather cell to spare your passengers from getting the shit scared out of them, MUCH respect!! I flew to Dublin and England with you guys just last month and it was a very pleasant flight!

If its someone i would trust, its an aer lingus pilot! Check out their accident record. 3 incidents since 1936, wheres one is an hijack.

Ultimately the Pilot makes the call. ATC can't see what the Pilot sees. I appreciate the frustration on the controller's side here but the Pilot nailed it with the final statement.

It sounds like the controller was trying to intimidate (and punish) the pilot. This is against FAR 91.11 (no person shall interfere or intimidate a crew member during operation...). You know the saying, “When the pilot makes a mistake, the pilot (and passengers) dies, when the controller makes a mistake, the pilot (and passengers) dies”. The pilot sees what the controller can’t. Radar is not a substitute for the pilot’s eyes.

Great job to the pilot, he sees what the controller can’t, and does what’s needed to stay as safe as possible

3:07 I like how the pilot drew a Celtic knot all while reminding the ATC it was time for their next right-turn.

The fact is Aer Lingus had a cell on their radar that their SOP required them to avoid. I have no doubt this was inconvenient for the controller but it turned out to be a lot more inconvenient for the aircraft. There is no way the crew would've declined a vector if they didn't need to. They will have been keen to get turned around and pick up their oceanic route so it is not as if maintaining their orginal heading for another 15 miles was something they would have wanted. The manner in which the controller behaved was childish. Those who say the crew should not have accepted the clearance before take-off are wrong. There can be a very long time between receiving the route clearance on the ground and actually getting airborne but the weather wasn't standing still. Furthermore these departures involve vectoring so the exact flight path between intial climb-out and GREKI is unknown and it is impossible to know ahead of time if there will be a build up along the way.

The pilot was correct the controller was putting schedule ahead of safety and the pilots put safety ahead of schedule. This should be used as a lesson.

The Aer Lingus crew were totally correct in their actions- if they see something which they think possesses a threat to their aircraft they will obviously avoid it. Pity ATC couldn’t understand.

as a pilot I have never encountered ATC to be like this, must be a KNYC manner

*A micro burst is a very localised fast developing weather phenomenon that has and will take planes down just as they are coming in to land, good call by the pilot, you can never be too safe with a plane load of people behind you depending on you to land them safely.*

The way the ATC stuttered at the end has me laughing so hard 🤣

ATC has a little too much NY cabbie in him.

Weather changes fast. Glad the Shamrock pilot didnt let ATC compromise his decision to stay safe.

I find this most extraordinary. Flights into, out of and over LHR follow graceful flight paths that vary to spread the out noise evenly. I remember seeing this kind of pattern over SVO Sheremetyevo a few times and could only wonder that was going on.

Aer Lingus pilots are amazing. Great airline, my favourite probably

Much respect to the Irish ☘️ pilot!’

That's why I like Aer Lingus pilots, they'll take no shit from anyone. If they feel that what they're being asked to do is unsafe they won't be long about telling you, and it don't matter who you are. That's why I love flying with them - first class professionals, all of them. Good job there pilot.

That closing statement from the pilot, I love it.

Meanwhile, the passengers were throwing-up due to excessive tight circles.

In the words of one of my instructors early on in my jet career " we haven't lost a controller yet". If that pilot would have accepted that turn and someone would have got hurt that crew would have been raked over the coals. NY ATC has some of the rudest controls that talk way to fast, think they know everything, use lingo instead of standard phraseology, and get so mad if you don't get it on the first call or question them. I departed Teterboro Airport and a ground controller reamed out somebody so bad for asking for confirmation instructions that everybody else on the radio frequency was afraid to ask any questions. Not a good situation when you're dealing with human lives and millions of dollars and equipment.

Imagine getting OWNED on a public radio frequency by a guy speaking Gaelic.

I 100% agree with the Irish captain, he was professional and polite.

That's why pilot experience is so important on commercial jets. He made a judgement and didn't put his aircraft into a questionable situation just because atc was putting pressure on him.

Good on the pilots! 100% professional ensuring a safe and comfortable flight for the PAX. Also good on the pilots for not letting ATC fly the aircraft. You have your equipment for a reason and its there with you in the sky. You did what was right. Well done Shamrok!

4:22 Note for the departure controller, there is usually a minimum of 60 minutes between the time that you ''accepted' or copied a departure clearance and the time that you take off. Weather changes quickly, even in NY.

Kudos to the pilot for maintaining professionalism.

This may aswell be in Chinese.

The pilot was absolutely right, never let anyone decide for you what is safe to do.

"My boss will call your boss" LMFAO good luck with that buddy.

Love the controller once the pilot mentioned “his boss will be contacting your boss” at the end... he quickly realizes that he’s not top shit anywhere. And his tone instantly changes too “well I do understand that, but ummm but, just so you’re aware sir... 😂🤦‍♂️”