This one was rude, unhelpful, yes. But that Mexican readback fetishist/phraseology nazi a few years back was definitely ruder, even if there was no emergency involved.
@@annejean-philippeotton8073 I think you misunderstood this comment. Peter is saying that it should be a given that the controller will have a helpful attitude when a pilot declares an emergency and the pilot should only have to worry about flying the airplane... not flying the airplane and dealing with an unhelpful jackass controller.
It's as if the ATC decided "ah, he's just scared of some clouds, it's not a *real* emergency!". Meanwhile at the beginning of the call the plane was being forced into a spiral decent (according to a comment further up)
@@3dbeergoggles Didn't the pilot say that the problem was weather related and that the emergency was over. Seems like a reasonable point for ATC to ask for a bit more information on the weather problem so as to have other traffic avoid it. At least that's what seemed to be happening to me based on just listening to it once. That said both men could have handled it better.
@@kurttappe correct! Aviate, Navigate, communicate in that order! When you enter an uncommanded spiral you FLY the A/C without regard for vectors/heading. Once level flight is established, you Navigate... point it in the correct (or safest) direction. Then (and only then) you communicate!! Regardless a PIREP would always be superfluous communication for a pilot who has declared an emergency. I thought he did well, and was far more professional with ATC than I would've been!
I still have no idea what all that attitude and passive-aggressiveness was from the controller. Even if the pilot up in the air is being a pain, it is the controller's job to maintain composure to get people down safely.
I've been watching plane channels for about 4 or 5 months now. Had the controller been XX, your OP would already be 10+ long with haughty reasons the ATC had attitude. But ATC is XY so the replies were crickets until now. Four or 5 months of these channels, I know this to be true.
Are you kidding me?! Asking an emergency aircraft for a PIREP and asking him to get the ATIS? Not giving him vectors when the pilot asked three times? Arguing with him? This gentleman needs a new career.
The airplane was obviously under control and the pilot said the emergency was weather related. ATC needs to know about that so as not to send any other traffic to the conditions bad enough to declare an emergency for. The controller got confused because 'IMC, light turbulence, and light rain' aren't really emergency grade weather conditions. I heard him get tons of vectors, and then call the airport in sight. Pilot needs remedial training if he can't fly in IMC and if he doesn't know what the responsibilities of a visual approach include.
@@iflyc77 IMC by itself is an emergency to a non-instrument-rated pilot, which many GA light-aircraft pilots are. VFR into IMC is a real killer. This pilot knew how to read his instruments well enough to follow vectors to a VFR airfield, and that's what he was asking for.
@@Kromaatikse I agree. I would hope that he is an instrument rated pilot though being that he was on an IFR flight plan. I also agree that he wanted vectors to VFR, even though he didn't say that at all. The controller pointed him at the airport, he reported it in sight, got cleared for the visual and got all pissy because there were still clouds around him. That is like using Google Maps to get to Chipolte, but then throwing your phone out the window because it doesnt give you the turn by turn into an open parking spot.
@@iflyc77 No. You deal with the emergency first, then worry about anything else. He said he had the beacon in sight "intermittently" and a vector was appropriate to maintain his base course. Also, he might not have been able to set up an IMC approach since he was in IMC. I have no idea why you made your comment or what skills you presume GA pilots to have.
I once had a controller tell me to proceed directly to an airport in the Chicago area. Doing so would have required a class B clearance. When I asked if I was cleared through the class B airspace I received a firm ‘negative’ as a response. I was a pretty new pilot at the time and I felt the guy was baiting me. Left a sour taste in my mouth.
@@rexiklexi169 Like TCAS. It tells one plane to climb and one to descends if they are on a course to collide. I just know of that cause of an NTSB investigation were pilots did the opposite and they collided cause they were listening to the controller.
@@Sevisstillalive Thankfully the regulations are clear on this matter. If you do not have a clearance into Class B, and you fly into it, you are in violation of that reg. Now, circumstances are important, so if for instance there was an emergency situation, as long as you can justify WHY you did something, you're fine. And remember, the pilot in command can deviate from any regulation required to meet the extent of the emergency.
controller - even he was not professional - did not say "deep breath...". Actually the pilot said that. okay, pilot fatigue, ifr, spo, everything against the controller professionalism, but commenters: please comment properly.. pilot said that "take a deep breath, ..." thing, not the atco
Pilot is the main issue . ATC screwed up in the beginning as he didn't give vectors, but finally understood and gave pilot the vectors. ATC asked pilot whether he is doing visual or ils. Pilot says visual. Then pilot says AIRPORT IN SIGHT.. ATC cleared approach. Then pilot gets testy when ATC didn't "read his mind" that he still needed vectors... even after airport is it sight. What the pilot needs to do is declare what he needs clearly. all he need to do is "airport in sight, but i still need vectors, intermittent visual". People can't read minds....
@@philtll Pilot looks a little dumb after prompting a visual approach clearance and then asking for a vector and altitude. But man the controller is on a whole 'nother level with his attitude in this case.
Not a great job by the controller. If the pilot had crashed, I'm sure the controller would have been considered a causal factor. I speak from 29 years center experience, and even a couple of plaques for helping pilots in emergencies. You gotta bring CALM to the table when you work those.
jumpmasterjm question for you. Preface: I have a PPL so I’m not completely unfamiliar with emergencies and ATC communications. Obviously all emergencies are investigated after the fact by the FAA. I’m sure ATC audio is reviewed during that process, correct? I hope this was investigated. Pretty unprofessional conduct by the controller which could’ve resulted in the loss of life (as you pointed out)
In nearly every single emergency in aviation the ATC gave his best to help the pilots resolving the issue/getting them on the ground as safe and fast as possible. This guy has the potential to escalate a smaller fault into a major emergency and is risking lives. He is like a firemen who doesn't give a damn about his job and his duties. Under no circumstance should this controller to be allowed to continue this line of job, he should not be allowed to work in the whole aviation field, because Communication and diligence is a major requirement from a pilot, over an ATC down to the some bag thrower from the terminal. Even cleaning personal have a better sense of duty then this guy.
bullshit. if the pilot crashed because he lost control in light rain and light turbulence the controller would have had nothing to do with it. what is ATC supposed to do, talk him out of his 'deep spiral?' pretty sure ATC isn't trained on unusual attitude recovery
@@iflyc77 Ressource management is the key word. If the ATC would do its job he would help with navigating and make communicating as easy as possible, so the pilots can focus on aviating.
Thomas, yes, never in my 34 years in ATC, have I heard a controller handle an emergency in such a manner. One ego-tripper, that should not be in a control position.
Retired center controller, and a PPL here. I am totally embarrassed by this, but certainly not surprised. Entitled punk is what I kept saying to myself as I heard him do his small-pe*is thing.
A growing issue is that fewer and fewer ATCs are also pilots. They don't necessarily have a good frame of reference regarding the problems pilots report.
Did the controller not give vectors and an altitude and told the pilot to report in-sight? Because it sounds like he did and when the pilot reported visual contact, the controller released the pilot for a visual approach and then the pilot got mad. The pilot refused to give a PIREP, considering the weather the pilot reported was different from the station weather reported. So how was the controller supposed to know of the conditions if the pilot refused to give the controller the proper information to better assist the pilot?
@@erauprcwa don't waste a minute. Msfs pilots here know everything and they called out atc's fault) When I read the comments above I know right off that these people don't fly.
@@komrad1983 Doesn't matter whose fault it is. It's ATC's job to give the pilot as much assistance as required to get that aircraft safely on the ground. ATC was argumentative. He's the one who is understood to be the pro. And sending him to ATIS? Give him the altimeter setting and winds.
@@erauprcwa The pilot was busy flying the airplane. He wanted vectors to a visual and was very clear about that. He doesn't need to give a PIREP at that moment. ATC doesn't need to know the conditions. He just needed to provide what the pilot requested. Inadvertent IMC by a VFR pilot gives him 3 minutes to live, statistically, and considering he was in a spiral descent, it doesn't sound like he was instrument rated. I flew out of PRC while going to Riddle, too, so not exactly ignorant.
Darek M The pilot was somewhat non helpful with his tone if we get down to it, but doesn’t the controller know exactly where the bad weather was? I assume he has a radar screen if he’s an approach controller....he can easily see a pilot had a firm descent here and requested to turn around. If I’m in an emergency the last thing I have time for is talking to the controller and it’d be the lowest priority task at that point.
He may have been trying to get information, but it sounded as though the pilot was task saturated when first declaring the emergency. I don't think he was expecting the attitude from ATC. The first time asking for vectors, in an emergency the ATC needs to immediately comply.
10 years as a CFII/MEII. Never experienced something this bad. I hope the controller was fired. Sitting in an air conditioned office listening to someone in distress thousands of feet above safety, and this is what he offers for help. What a punk.
@@apastafarian5051 been a long time since Ive watched this video and your comment made me come watch it again. Got my blood boiling again. Just shameful what this guy did.
@@Hondaridr58 makes me think he never been 3 thousand feet in the fucking air Wondering if you gonna make it back down. ATC should be pilots as well. Lol sorry I brought you back
@@apastafarian5051 lol all good brotha. I agree, controllers should be at least private Pilots. It's one of those things where, you REALLY don't know what it's like until you've been in the situation. It seems like pilots become nothing more than numbers attached to voices for controllers sometimes. The same could be said for us pilots being in a controllers position. This guy though... Don't need to be in his position to realize how wrong he is.
Since when does light winds, high visibility, no cloud ceiling, and large temp/dewpoint spread = bad weather? The pilot made a radio call saying he has the field in sight, and the controller cleared him for a visual and then the pilot got upset...
@@jaredsebesta2009 I believe the pilot said there were clouds above and below and he could only intermittently see the airport. He was in IMC conditions. Above, an FAA ATC said this was “painful to watch”
It most likely was. I work ATC but in Canada, so no FAA. If I tried to argue with a pilot that declared an emergency like this controller did, I would be removed from operational duty pending a Transport Canada (Canadian equivalent of FAA) investigation.
All IFEs go for a quality assurance review. I'm sure its been talked about. Not to mention the endless shit talking on RU-vid by anyone who heard this. He is an faa employee, so it was most likely formally addressed immediately.
ATC wanted a “belt measuring” contest with the pilot. The pilot declared an emergency, the ATC’s primary responsibility at this point is to give the pilot all the info he needs to land safely. Questioning the pilot as to WHY he needs the info is way out of bounds. Those questions can and should be asked AFTER the pilot has landed.
He’s asking because the pilot is giving him mixed signals. ATC offered ILS and pilot declined and requested VFR then confirmed airport in sight, then he requested vectors. Pilot is all over the place.
@@CrimsonFlameRTR Weather is also "all over the place". It changes dramatically, quickly (especially around the islands if you've ever spent any time there and watched the convective activity). The time for why's is later.
When declaring an IFE, The Fire Chief or Ground Safety officer becomes On the Ground/Scene commander if there is one. From experience, they would have decertified the controller or chewed them a new one. The On Scene Commander can end Your career. And in this case allowing an aircraft to crash resulting in injury or death was possible. The pilot did an outstanding job. The FAA would be proud of him. The controller, not so much.
Absolutely disgusting from the ATC. Disagreeing with an emergency pilot about an emergency?? This is mental! This pilot could have been low houred or not familiar with the aircraft or airport. Or just not comfortable in IMC! This is disgusting. I'm never usually one to call for this but there needs to be an investigation into this controller and at worst that pilot should be chasing to have his job!
I'm not in the industry but from pretty much every other ATC emergency once that E word is declared the attitude shifts immediately to "What can I do to help you?"
If you are low houred, not familiar with aircraft/airport, or not comfortable with IMC, you don't declare an emergency. Then you just ask for help or clarification out loud over the radio. For example when student pilots need help from ATC when they fly solo, they say over radio they are student on solo and the ATC helps them or connects them with their instructor. Declaring an emergency you do as a last resort, when you are in real danger. In the same way you dont call 911 just because you have become lost in the night/fog on the way home. Then you call somewhere else and ask for help simply. Don't waste emergency resources on non-emergency situations. Could understand the ATC if the pilot declared an emergency needlessly. The pilot might just be unfamiliar with when to declare emergency, but then it might be better to just say the situation out loud from the radio and have the ATC declare for him if neccessary. Then he don't get the blame for declaring a needless emergency.
Really. Just give him the f-ing weather. He’s declared an emergency and is struggling to control his aircraft. Don’t make him look up and tune the frequency for the weather when you could just tell him in 5 sec.
That was one of the most infuriating ATC interactions I've ever heard. Compmetly unprofessional and flat out dangerous. When I was in training at NAVCANADA to be an IFR controller we studied the dangers of arrogance and ignorance. Its precisely this kind of attitude that kills people. I sincerely hope the pilot files a report against the controller, who needs to be reviewed. Absolutely appalling behaviour.
The FAA could use that training syllabus. I used to work with a few controllers that were hard on pilots at times. I would tell them "You're the reason some pilots would rather crash and die than call ATC for help." I've personally known a couple of pilots that were lost that way.
Such controllers doesn't help to identify talented pilots.. like Captain Maggie . they would crash land a student pilot even in VFR conditions. His punishment.. Post him at JFK and let the SUPER and HEAVY grill him over the radio ! Kennedy Steve did you listen did you see this video ?
Compare this guy to the lady who helped that wee 17 yearl girl land her plane on one wheel a while back one extreme to another glad she dident get this guy that day she wouldent be here😨😨
I stumbled on that recording by accident. It was remarkable - especially the change in tone of the ATC as soon as the young pilot communicated the problem. That is what you want to hear when you are in trouble.
@@rapiddescent7633 RD, here is the link: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-B229-KLudTo.html what a brave pilot and exceptional ATC. Be well.
I want to caution some of you observers/ commenters about taking some of these pilot's attitudes expressed here into the airways. This is a clear example of abuse of service and Unnecessary use of emergency authority and assistance. Controllers do not know where your weather problems lie except for Pireps and evaluating weather conditions. I believe the spiral decent was pilot initiated and not meteorological in nature.. if you turn down the ILS and report the field in sight then it is up to you to do that contingent on being able to keeping it in sight. PILING ON unnecessary request in the guise of still being in an emergency is not what constitute the best use of the facility and services. Your baseline beliefs should be that the controllers are there to help and are formulating avenues or plan to assist. They are not a Pinata. Assertiveness should be appropriately and sparingly applied, this was an abuse of emergency assistance. Be careful piling on to the flavor of the mount with all these thumbs up and withy comments, this pilot clearly abused the ATC services
@@RU-vid.TOM.A Yeah it all sounds good except... Both pilots AND ATCs in the comments noted some of them know this particular guy and confirmed he's a butthole, from both perspectives.
@@mihan2d Commentors on social media; the equiilant of the salem witch trial, the only proof that i have to evaluate is the transcript, he sounds like a perfectionist but well intended.
Someone needs to read FAR 91.3(a) to that controller and make him repeat it back until he understands it. When an emergency is declared, it's the pilot's job to fly the airplane and the controller's job to give the pilot whatever he asks for unless it will wind up routing him through cumulo-granite, no arguments, no questions asked.
This wasn’t a private pilot VMC into IMC. This is an instructor. Vectors for the ILS 2 which he turned down was his out. The controller handed it to him. Obviously, he was not prepared to fly an approach in actual conditions. The sad part is, this was a training flight.
floydndaisy could be but we don’t know what he was dealing with in the cockpit. He just went thru probably a severe t storm downdraft. Flying at night in turbulent mic. Florida and Hawaii and tropical locales have severe cumulonimbus weather that happens fast. Maybe the student was freaking out, we just don’t know. The controllers job is still to assist especially in an emergency. If I was that pilot I would be filing a complaint with the FAA and the tower supervisor. It’s not the controllers job to make things more difficult in a potentially dangerous situation.
@@floydndaisy Put simply, you're full of prunes. Read Brett Leonard's comment and then think about whether you'd want a vector to an ILS under those conditions. I sure as hell wouldn't. Besides, *you* need to read FAR 91.3(a) again. It's the controller's job to suggest options, but it's the pilot's job to fly the airplane in the conditions he's flying in right then. If the pilot says he can't do that, then the controller needs to shut up about what he thinks the pilot should do and give the pilot what he asks for..._now_.
Jay Maynard The controller cleared him for a visual approach with a right downwind entry when he had the field in sight. Did the controller really need to hold his hand for a simple visual maneuver? That’s private pilot stuff flying the pattern.
...but wouldn't it be illegal as the pilot to fly vfr with clouds between him and the airport. Sounds a lot easier to just ask for vectors. Why isn't the controller helping. We as pilots.are advised to refuse a visual clearance if there are clouds that will prevent it.
That ‘clipped’ tone the ATC has after the pilot tells him to take a deep breathe is so cringe. The ATC just makes himself sound like a petulant teenager.
So its ok for pilot to be provocative, not answer questions, and give "orders" to ATC. He clearly needs help getting down but questions ATC and presents attitude. Not very smart under the circumstances.
Early in my IR training I had a goosebump moment at night navigating out of terrain near Palm Springs. When I called up approach rather assertively asking for help and confirming my vectoring, the amazing ATC controller who at the time had her hands full with the “rush hour” of LAX arrivals immediately dropped everything and attended to my ‘out of the blue request.’ She even was the one who asked me if I’m declaring an emergency, in which by that time I was confident we were not. Nonetheless, the whole way back to KHHR all the subsequent SoCal Approach controllers held my hand including reporting to me weather at KHHR and thus not even requiring ATIS to clear me in for a visual. This video’s controller should take a masterclass from our amazing socal controllers who give more help to a NON-emergency pilot whilst juggling likely 40 airliners in and out of LAX.
Not all emergencies are the same. You can have an emergency and still be able to do your job, like get ATIS. If you can't, you can ask ATC to give it to you. It's not uncommon.
@@erauprcwa when an emergency is declared its a fucking emergency. I don't care if you're in perfectly clear skies in a perfectly good plane. An emergency is an emergency
@@iflyc77 When, in a medical emergency, one pilot is incapacitated and his copilot himself may be delirious from lack of oxygen or similar, you still expect him to read ATIS and provide a PIREP?
@@roadent217 sure. I meant medical emergency with a passenger though. All the pilot has to day is unable, or standby if they are too task saturated at that moment. This guy just got all pissy
You must not have met a manipulative person before. Just because someone tells you to “calm down” doesn’t mean you are the one acting out. Note: I’m not saying the pilot was being manipulative, just saying that simply saying “calm down” to someone doesn’t mean you are the good guy or the one acting appropriately in the situation.
@@jediskywalker356 Overall, I agree with you. In my experience, telling someone to calm down is one of the last useful things anyone could do to deescalate a conflict. However, in the context of this case, the controller was being unnecessarily aggressive and demanding. That has to factor into any evaluation of who was doing right or wrong.
Yes, 3700 is not 4000’, you only allowed zero feet below 4000 and considering he’s incompetent pilot, disoriented, inaccurate altimeter sittings on a night flight ... perfect recipe for a disasters
@Hornet yes, and you should correct instantly, on final approach you’re allowed zero feet below assigned attitude and no more that 100’ above, on the other hand he’s making sure that local altimeter sitting is correct
Even after that exchange, N3927 still was calling him sir and saying thank you, really shows who was the bigger man here. Props to him for being that patient, if I'd just been in a spiral descent and ATC was treating it like it was no big deal, I think I would've snapped. What about intermittent clouds didn't he understand? Cancelling his approach clearance after he declared an emergency is the biggest power trip and F you I've seen on this channel.
A bigger man would have used the time reprimanding the ATC to instead give a pirep or more info about the emergency or the status of the aircraft or anything else more useful to the situation. Pilot was out of his depths.
THIS pilot didn't even know what a visual approach was and refused to give the controller more information in regards to the weather, to better assist the pilot. The pilot asked for a visual approach with vectors. The controller gave him that, and asked the pilot to report the airport insight. The pilot reported the airport insight. At that point the only thing the controller can do is clear the pilot for the visual, no further help is required, but the pilot then argued and complained they wanted more vectors and an altitude, AFTER reporting the airport insight... This is confusing. The pilot then stated that there were clouds. That's irrelevant, you reported the field insight so it's your job to avoid and keep the field in sight. If at any point you lose sight of the field, tell ATC and they can give further vectoring. The pilot didn't do this. He also refused to tell the controller the weather to better assist them.
This controller has ZERO place in this industry. I’m sure it’s made it on down the line, but I’m going to make sure and forward this because this guy is going to get somebody killed. I don’t think he had any idea how dangerous that situation was, the pilot certainly did. Kudos to him, he basically saved himself with good communication but had to wade through the controllers attitude to accomplish it. What a muppet, this profession has no place for agitated egos, especially in a low level IMC emergency.
This is unbelievable. This controller needs to get his head checked. When he said "3700 is an incorrect altitude" his MO became pretty clear. Dude already declared an emergency due to WX. If I was this pilot I'd be happy to pull the tapes. Controller needs a different line of work.
Evan Henrich can’t believe I heard that either. The controller was insinuating that he was going to report the pilot for pilot deviation for being 300’ low after declaring an emergency while he is sitting safe and sound on his comfy chair staring at his radar screen eating Cheetos.
I've worked guys in weather emergencies before. Jumping in their $hit and distracting them from flying the plane is a good way to kill people. I wish I could have yanked that guy off the scope and plugged in instead.
night nomad - The Pilot was climbing to get to 4,000. My guess is that he would indeed have been at 3,700 at some point during the climb. The ATC didn’t give him time to finish his climb...
@@noreplieshere The plane was over the ocean at the time the controller questioned his altitude. So no, there was no danger of him hitting anything at 3700 feet. When you cross the shoreline and get closer to the airport, there is a mountain range off the the left wing, but it is several miles away. The airport is at an elevation of 54 feet and all the terrain around it and leading up to it is mostly at the same elevation.
@@noreplieshere the ATC gave that instruction, the pilot read it back correctly, and then the ATC immediately (within two seconds, look at the time code) told him he was at the incorrect altitude. I'm no pilot, but I doubt the plane can simply apparate 250' straight up. The controller was clearly looking for a fight during that whole exchange.
I am a flight instructor and an air traffic controller who teaches other controllers about how to respond to emergencies. CAVEAT: The views expressed are my one and are NOT official FAA policy. Based on the audio presented here, while the controller had a "right" to be confused about a couple of issues, there is no excuse in my opinion for the controller to berate a pilot in an emergency in this way. EVEN IF the controller believes that the emergency is faked in any way or that the pilot is somehow incompetent, that get's settled on the ground not in the air.
@@jumpmasterjm and so did the 'pilot'. All he had to do was ask for 'vectors to the ILS' and there would be nothing to discuss. Or the controller could have said, "I'm giving you vectors to the ILS XX approach, fly heading YYY to intercept and maintain ZZZ until established..." BOTH of the people in this event need to improve their aviation skills and JUDGEMENT.
@@stay_at_home_astronaut Based on my experience (which is admittedly unprofessional, consisting entirely of VATSIM), the best phraseology from the controller should've been to ask, "Are you able to accept vectors for the ILS Runway 2?"
@@philipmcniel4908 or better yet, "I'm going to give you vectors to intercept the ILS: Heading XXX, maintain Y,YYY until established..." If someone is _clearly_ overcome by events and cannot keep their 'stuff' together, then it _may_ be best to give succinct and _safe_ commands for them to follow. This pilot was _clearly_ in over his head, but he had the presence of mind to argue with the controller? Not the kind of guy I would want to fly with. Is he a pilot, yes. Is he an aviator, not really.
@@stay_at_home_astronaut It seems to me like it requires less presence of mind to argue with the controller than to just completely ignore the ATC's berating and lack of instructions and land on your own with the radio turned off in exasperation.
Obviously, the list of egregious things from this controller is endless, but the first thing I noticed is that he didn't give the pilot the info from the ATIS, he asked him to advise when he had it- DURING AN EMERGENCY! I've been on VFR and IFR flights where the controller reads me most of the ATIS because his workload is light and he is being nice. And I haven't declared an emergency. 4:15 is the one that REALLY got me though because the controller is only speaking to serve his ego. He is making the pilot "wrong" for being 300 feet below the altitude he JUST assigned ("That is the incorrect altitude") because he has an attitude about the pilot TELLING HIM "Give me a vector and an altitude". Do you know if he was fired? I have never ever ever experienced a rude egomaniac controller in Seattle or on the west coast. They are all SUPER nice ESPECIALLY if you declare an emergency. This is just crazy!
4:15 The pilot is a moron for descending when he doesn't have the airport in sight, and ATC is telling him he needs to climb, he wasn't very polite about it but he got the point across.
I mean usually they give you an altitude that is to keep you and everyone else safe. 300ft off is pretty far off especially when its low. That could put you in the path of a mountain, building, antenna, tethered balloon, other traffic. All sorts of reasons. The pilot gave no indication in the emergency declaration that the aircraft or the pilot was no longer going to be able to maintain altitude in normal conditions so a stern warning that you are sinking to get the pilots attention is merited and the pilot should be thankful for it. He was not making the pilot wrong for being 300ft off. The pilot was just wrong for being 300ft off. Seems like you have an issue with the pilot taking responsibility for his own craft?
ATC didn't say "Climb to 4000", he said "Maintain 4000 feet" Pilot said "4000 feet", confirming he is at that altitude. He should've said "Climbing to 4000". ATC was 110% right to ask for the pilot to confirm his altitude.
@@mikethespike056 No, he wasn't right at all. Yes, he said "Maintain 4000 feet", and just a second later he said "you are not at 4000, you are at 3700". So, why the hell did he tell him to maintain 4000 when he already knows he is at 3700? And he did this stupid game when the pilot declared an emergency.
@@mikethespike056 I think he would have been more in the right if he hadn't been a salty dickhole for the entire rest of the interaction. The pilot was in an emergency and stated earlier he was pushed into a decent and a spin. That's enough to put anyone out of sorts. He correctly read back the altitude, but did forget to confirm that he was climbing to it - from context, it's obvious that he knew he had to climb and was going to climb, so ATC didn't necessarily need to be on his ass about one FAA keyword. Lots of pilots and ATCs communicate just fine all the time using just the most important terms for brevity. And that goes double for single-pilot aircraft who are in an emergency and flying in rough weather and can't see the airport and dealing with ATCs who switch from bored and uninterested to furious and pedantic on a hair trigger.
Yeah, only problem is the video is cut, so you don't have silence for too long (bc it's kinda boring), so you don't actually know how much time has passed.
It's Hawaii. This kind of behavior isn't unusual. No body would tolerate it on the mainland. But there, people in "authority" have a tendency to let the power go to their heads. I'm absolutely NOT surprised by this at all and absolutely nothing will be done about it. He'll probably even get a promotion.
Worst situational awareness by a controller that I have ever seen. Contrast that with the pilot ( who is in a world of *&%$) who keeps calm and cool throughout. When he asks for a vector and altitude, don't argue---give it to him immediately. Outstanding piloting --not intimidated or distracted by the arrogant controller. Kudos to him.
He didn't ask for an altitude first, he asked for a vector. The controller told him to fly direct to the Maui VOR. THIS pilot didn't even know what a visual approach was and refused to give the controller more information in regards to the weather, to better assist the pilot. The pilot asked for a visual approach with vectors. The controller gave him that, and asked the pilot to report the airport insight. The pilot reported the airport insight. At that point the only thing the controller can do is clear the pilot for the visual, no further help is required, but the pilot then argued and complained they wanted more vectors and an altitude, AFTER reporting the airport insight... This is confusing. The pilot then stated that there were clouds. That's irrelevant, you reported the field insight so it's your job to avoid and keep the field in sight. If at any point you lose sight of the field, tell ATC and they can give further vectoring. The pilot didn't do this. He also refused to tell the controller the weather to better assist them.
He did... Then the pilot said he had the airport/beacon and was cleared for the visual, as requested. Then the pilot got mad and wanted more vectors. You cant say you have visual and then want more vectors, then yell at the controller because there's clouds... as if the controller knows what the weather is, after you've already stated that the reported weather is not actual and refused to give a PIREP to notify the controller of the change in weather.
@@FlourescentPotato In what ways did he not help the pilot? He gave the pilot everything he asked, with very little information. When the pilot gave conflicting information, the controller, probably not in the most professional way, but he was frustrated, asked the pilot what they wanted, after the pilot stated something that conflicts with proper protocol... (Requesting a visual approach, says they have the visual, then proceeds to berate the controller for clearing them for the visual).
@@jamie_ar Instead of throw away facetious comments, can someone please explain why I'm wrong? I'm legit fascinated by this incident and I think it's a scenario that we can all learn from.
My father knew a pilot in the RCAF who had also been a flight instructor for some young guys getting into the industry. One day, as they were both flying circuits, doing touch and go’s, the tower started getting a bit aggressive on frequency with the student pilot. So, the instructor told the student pilot to request for a full stop landing, and requested the student pilot to stop on the runway near the tower. The student pilot did so, and when he stopped, the flight instructor got out and walked from the runway directly to the tower, and gave the controller shit for pushing the student pilot around. They never had that issue again. TLDR: Don’t push new pilots around.
Don't know about the story but the TLDR- that pilot gave so many clues that he was green as all hell. Don't push new pilots around. It's life and death sometimes. You can't just decide it's not a real emergency and start loading up a new pilot who's struggling to fly. Unacceptable
As someone that flies SFO-OGG a lot. In the back of the plane, I’m not a pilot. But OGG is in the valley of Maui with Haleakala at 10,000 feet. And lots of clouds blowing through. Often obscuring visual. I’m not comfortable knowing this guy on the ground is so cavalier with my Life.! ATC needs to consider job at Rental Car counter.
Most pilots don't know when to declare and emergency and even after they do, they don't know what that means. THIS pilot didn't even know what a visual approach was and refused to give the controller more information in regards to the weather, to better assist the pilot. The pilot asked for a visual approach with vectors. The controller gave him that, and asked the pilot to report the airport insight. The pilot reported the airport insight. At that point the only thing the controller can do is clear the pilot for the visual, no further help is required, but the pilot then argued and complained they wanted more vectors and an altitude, AFTER reporting the airport insight... This is confusing. The pilot then stated that there were clouds. That's irrelevant, you reported the field insight so it's your job to avoid and keep the field in sight. If at any point you lose sight of the field, tell ATC and they can give further vectoring. The pilot didn't do this. He also refused to tell the controller the weather to better assist them.
ERAUPRCWA I really wanna reply to this but you’re just so wrong I don’t want to attempt except say that the job for ATC when a pilot declares an emergency is to guide them back. ATC didn’t do that this time and instead gave attitudez
Now retired after 40 years in ground operations for a major airline. I was able to be the fly on the wall since the pilot would use my phone to call the tower. Lot's of interesting conversations after an incident. 99% of the time it was a civil discussion with a peaceful ending. In a few cases reports were filed, but not often. "We'll discuss this on the ground". Words to live by.
Indeed, the inbound emergency has priority. The controller needed only state, "I'm showing you at 3700" to assist the pilot in maintaining safe flight.
There was a lot of shared mistakes in the mis-communication. For a man in trouble, the pilot seemed to have copped a lot of attitude as well. He DID report the airport in sight twice, before ATC cleared him for the visual approach the first time. As for the PIREP it was a PIREP request to the untrained, but ATC has an obligation to collect as much information about the reason the pilot declared the IFE. Any additional information that the pilot can supply helps ATC help him more. Instead of the pilot making a big show on the radio, all he had to say was "can you give me vectors to the airport, I have intermittent contact". That would tell ATC he just wants to get a little closer before he accepts a visual approach. ATC could have been a little more patient, and if for no other reason than to cover his own tail, he should have read the current obs and any applicable NOTAMS for the airport to the pilot. ATC was generally a little sloppy and wasn't dotting all his eyes and crossing all his tees. For example, he should have given the pilot the tower frequency, and even solicited landing clearance from the tower and kept the pilot on his own frequency. The objective being, the pilot could remain focused on the task at hand, getting the aircraft on the runway. The pilot really failed to communicate with ATC though, there was more than enough fault to go around.
BEACON in site is NOT the same as airport in site. Re listen to the video again!!!! ALSO, pilot reported intermittent visual with beacon due to clouds.
In UK the ATC had to also be pilots (current or prior). Not sure if this still a requirement, but it certainly was when I visited Manchester ATC via a friend. This guy seemed like he was relaxed but frustrated all at once, like his Zen routine, or spliff was interrupted
To be fair, this is Hawaii, its quite probable these two had history before. There are pilots who have declared dozens of emergencies in the air, and ATCs don't like that. Don't KNOW that's what happened here, but I have heard ATCs and pilots get into tiffs for petty reasons before.
@@fortusvictus8297 i don’t believe this particular pilot actually did, but I now a LOT of other pilots filed numerous reports and had incidents with him.
I’m sorry, but I’m going to take the controller’s side on this. Just listening to the audio without any preconceived opinion, the pilot had me seriously pissed off. One, did he ever actually explain what the emergency was? “I’m in a hard descent!” FFS! Second, controller was being helpful and the pilot was acting like an unqualified dufus who suddenly couldn’t tune and track direct to a VOR. Third, the controller gets the pilot to the airport and the pilot reports the airport in sight, so the controller clears him visually to the airport, and the pilot snaps back that he needs a vector as if the controller is supposed to be able to read his mind. The controller was doing his job, and I understand his frustration with the pilot, and yeah, he lost his cool; but this pilot was being an idiot.
Wow, an emergency aircraft needing to tell a controller to take a deep breath and calm down? Yikes! Kudos to the pilot for keeping it together. Btw I’m assuming the emergency was VFR into IMC. The pilot could have clearly stated that but either way it’s not the controller’s prerogative to argue about the nature of the emergency and it should have been fairly obvious anyway.
@@THEEJuror13 I think the descending spiral was to get out of the cloud layer. @Keven Guimaraes the pilot doesn't need to say anything other than I'm declaring an emergency. If ATC absolutely needs to know the reason for it they can do so when everyone is on the ground safe and you have all the time in the world. Until then it's utterly irrelevant.
@@THEEJuror13 Does it show the spiral pattern on radar? I never saw anything there that would indicate a loss of control nor does the pilot declare a loss of control. With the altitude he's dropping it seems very much like a rapid controlled descent. He was pretty close to a Hawaiian island too, which is probably why he didn't want to begin his TOD while heading back towards the airport since he wouldn't know where the mountains were. I'm happy to be corrected here just curious as to what makes you certain of that. Thanks
If that pilot was in a real emergency situation... he wouldn't have had all the spare time on hand to school the controller! His attitude was the problem! Stop encouraging bad behavior!
wow comments are all talkin shit about the controller but the pilot was fucking up left and right lol. He never had an emergency, hes obviously new to flying, gave conflicting call outs time and time again, he was never in a "hard decent". I really gained alot of respect for controllers if they have to deal with people like this.
By far the worst controller I’ve ever heard. Thankfully the pilot did a lot of things right after declaring emergency, particularly holding his ground with approach. Given a recent high profile crash highlighting what can go wrong in IMC there really is no excuse. I don’t say this lightly, but I hope that guy never has the privilege to control an aircraft again.
@@tidritblag9877 he didn't have visual, you know, on account of the rapidly developing weather strong enough to shunt his left wing down 50 degrees and force him into a temporarily unrecoverable spiral descent. you're the idiot.
I'm on the side in this one that the controller was less than helpful. It sounds like the pilot was not instrument rated or if he was got rattled by the turbulence, IMC conditions, etc. Once he declares an emergency and asks for help, the controller should have been giving him the ATIS right away once the pilot said he did not have the ATIS. The pilot stated several times that the airport and beacon were intermittent because of the clouds between them. If you are rattled and just trying to get yourself and family or passengers down safely, the last extra-load on your plate that you need is a controller arguing with you in a critical phase of flight. And once this controller got butt-hurt, he immediately became less helpful and began chastising the pilot for a minor altitude deviation while he had declared an emergency. I got in some turbulence that was not forecasted a few years back where I was literally thrown around the sky for 10 minutes and if I hadn't done so much actual instrument training around that time, could have been incredibly alarming. Non-pilot ATC controllers should be required (or at least strongly encouraged) to get at least 15 hours of flight training in small aircraft before being certified as a controller. I'm guessing this controller would be curled up in a ball on the floor sucking his thumb in this circumstance. One of the Chicago area DPE's remarked recently that the shortage of controllers have led to the system allowing some very low-quality controllers to become certified, but I think the Chicago Area controllers are some of the best around. I had a well known controller in the western Chicago suburbs mix up the N-numbers on two planes on crossing runways 7,000ft away from each other, resulting in him having an aircraft "line up and wait" on runway 26 just as I was 50 ft from touching down on runway 26. I heard him mix up the numbers and looked immediately down and to the left and saw the plane in time as it was pulling straight in front of me. I went around and everything worked out, but this was not the 1st time this kind of stuff happened.
I’m relatively confident that the audio & video replay from this incident will become a mandatory training item for FAA controllers. The vast majority of us strive to provide a service in a professional manner, and I’m glad a majority of you pilots recognize this.
The controller is safe on the ground while the pilot is up in the air in trouble. Controller needs to be calm, helpful, and reassuring even if the pilot is rattled.
I am an ATC and this attitude was a real embarrassment for our professionals...just don't forget, just as in the pilots herd...we also have our rotten apples... sorry again.
For me the most difficult part of learning to fly was having to deal with the radio communications side of flying a plane. It can be a chore and took the fun out of it for me. I was always afraid I would say something wrong or make a mistake.
It's a common fear but honestly you're very rarely going to get critiqued or yelled at because of your speech precision on radio. I change up the order of my read-backs all the time. As long as the pertinent information is there and is accurate, ATC is not really going to give you too much grief. Don't let it stop you! :) - It also depends on what airports you frequent. ATC at Hartsfield-Jackson is going to have far less patience than ATC at a smaller municipal airport somewhere
i forgot the word "inbound" and looked to my instructor and he shrugged his shoulders and smiled like he would often do when he was not opening the door on landing ... so i told the tower " coming at you from the south at 4000' " everything when fine ....
My best guess - the pilot DEMANDED vectors, not requested so ATC must've felt that somehow this pilot diminished his authority by giving him orders. And the way that this ATC dealt with 'declared emergency' is super-violation of every rules in these situation, hope the guy is in the elite of the unemployed now as he is a real danger, not the weather
Well, thats not how it works. The ATC doesnt have ultimate authority over the aircraft anyway. The PIC is the ultimate authority on the aircraft, and they do have the responsibility to disregard ATC instructions in the event they believe it to be the safest course of action. Not the option, not the choice - they are required by the law to maintain the safety of the aircraft, and if that requires disregarding instructions from ATC then they are compelled to do so. After the event, it may be a question of fact whether disregarding the instructions was the safest course of action, however.
FAR 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command. (a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft. (b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.
@Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Camacho This video isn't even related. What's the point of adding it to this nonsensical reply? Or are you the imbecile in the video because I've seen quite of your replies here. As soon as one declares an emergency they are to be afforded any and all resources to meet that emergency. How was this moron's attitude helping here? Even if the pilot made a few errors you ignore it because he's busy fighting for his life. That controller is most definitely a sociopath/psychopath based on the lack of awareness to try berating the pilot in this situation
If you say you have the runway in sight, you are telling the controller you are to do a visual approach. He then asks for vectors which indicates he can't fly VMC, but then refuses to accept he cannot do a visual approach. Clearly the pilot has no understanding of what he got himself into and is clearly in over his head. The controller did nothing wrong. The pilot is at fault here.
Agreed.. pilot seemed like he had done some poor planning, probably was busy looking at foreflight in the plane, flew himself into IMC and got nervous. Never once mentioned the actual nature of the emergency, the souls or FOB. Sounded like he didn’t want to be on recorded line admitting he fucked up
I was so disturbed by the action of this controller. I was very impressed with the Pilot's communication almost needing to make his emergency request but to also help the controller do his job which created a higher workload for the Pilot. The FAA should review this controllers action as I can say as a ATP over 12,000 hours my action would be to take legal action with a case that the controller failed his duties to assist in a emergency condition and compounded the workload of this Pilot. Completely inexcusable. For the Pilot Great Job I loved your comment we can talk on the Ground!!
This is the only correct take. Very easy to see in these comments who knows what they’re talking about and who doesn’t, from a fellow career airline pilot
The controller deserves prison time, loss of his job, and should be barred from working any other job relating to aerospace and aeronautics ever again. This was absolutely unforgivable.
What disturbed you? The FAA should review you because if this disturbed you and you really are and ATP a lot of people are in danger flying with a pilot that cant hack it. The pilot at no point in the video helped the ATC do his job. Id challenge you to explain this in more detail. The pilot requested things from the ATC the ATC delivered those things. Generally when an aircraft declares and emergency the ATC asks for information from the pilot, this is pretty standard. Again, if you dont understand this or the idea of it disturbs you than please speak with your company and the FAA because you need further training for hundreds of lives are put in your hands.
But maybe you can explaine me this.. why did he declared a emergency at all? He was not in a spiral descent, i heard no alarms and he gives information that there are clouds ABOVE him what has no value at all. He may talk calm but that guy was out of control. At one point he see the airport, the next second he needs a vector? I can feel the frustration of the atc. And also his suspicion why he asked the severity of the turbulences. That was in my opinion a pilot who was unsure and therefore he demanded someone holding his hand until he landed.
@@comfortableovertones okay i understand. Really makes sense bc when the pilot has a problem with air pressure or anything like that you literally have to explain them how to fly a plane. And a lost pilot at night may get scared and needs a hand. I get it, the atc should have made his complains once the plane is on the ground, but not be a A hole while he was in air.
They all sounds pretty -tone, though this pilot is requesting confusing information. Asking for vectors and stating he has visuals, vectors are for instrument flying and visuals are self explanatory.
@@matthewworldtrotter9012 Aircraft move very fast though, if you only have intermittent visibility you need vectors to follow for when that runway disappears again.
@@margaretwilson8736 Not light rain and turbulence that is what it was later in the conversation. He said that because of the clouds he could NOT see the beacons at all times. This controller needs to be retrained never gave directions of the turns.
@@63076topher Light rain and light turbulence have specific definition in the FAA and are used to communicate specific things. Non of those things indicate emergency weather or limited visibility. Since the pilot did not give a pirep all the ATC can go on is that the pilot took off in what ever the conditions are or flew in to them so should be able to keep flying in them once passed what ever emergency weather event happened. If the pilot was already there and its IMC that the ATC should expect the pilot can fly in IMC. Beyond that its on the pilot to inform the ATC what is going on and what they need.
😅😆 sounds like thats where he received his training at Least wait there goes a hot air balloon at 400kt its definitely steam edition Fan of airforceproud95? The vid where he gets in the cockpit with the Brazilian where we headed? Yes 😁😆😅🤣😂 I've armed the landing gear Just gonna open up the door and air out the cockpit 😆😅🤣
Pilot was wrong on this one. The pilot gave conflicting information to the ATC. First he says he flying a visual then he says he is flying IMC and asking for vectors then he is flying visual again. The pilot was all over the place with his communication with ATC.
Goes to show how stressful being an atc is but this is just inappropriate taking it out on an aircraft in distress. ATC should seriously be reprimanded.
1:32 - 1:40 -- He goes from 4900 to 4500 in 8 seconds. That's a 3,000fpm descent. I'll accept his marginally annoyed tone given that he was on a truly wild ride that would've had most people losing their s*** one way or another.
@@5hiftyL1v3a No, you're wrong. The 3-digit number below his callsign is altitude in hundreds of feet (e.g. 1000' = 010; 4500' = 045; 18,000' = 180 = FL180). The two digit number is airspeed in tens of knots (e.g. 70 knots = 07). Heading is not numerically displayed at all.
Rude? Unhelpful? i'd say incompetent. Controllers must be calm and communicate clearly during an emergency. Just think of all the great examples on this channel of a controller calmly, professionally assisting the PIC in managing an emergency. I hope this controller received the follow up training and counseling necessary so they can be that professional controller we all need....or make the decision to pursue another career.
I really hope this gets investigated (which since it was a declared emergency it should) and that controller is reprimanded/finds another line of work. He seemed so arrogant and well, like an asshole. That pilot could've suffered some severe consequences as a result of the controller's ineptitude. Wow. I'm so glad he made it safely to the ground.
The CONTROLLER's ineptitude? Pretty sure it was the pilot on an IFR flight plan that claimed to lose control worthy of declaring an emergency because they flew into light turbulence and IMC. "Get me out of this!" "Uhhhh, ok. Fly heading 090?" Controllers can't see clouds and turbulence you know... I can't believe all of these stupid comments
@@iflyc77 That's besides the point. This has more to do with the attitude of the controller which was completely unnecessary and made an already dangerous situation, much worse. He discussed things on an open freq that should have waited until the pilot called the tower after he landed. Why someone would defend this guy makes no sense. You don't have to be a pilot to see how his attitude is inappropriate and unprofessional.
@@AmyAnnLand If there is weather conditions severe enough out there that warrant a loss of control emergency the controller needs to know about that in order to keep other aircraft from experiencing it. Severe turbulence, tornado, bean stalk stretching into the stratosphere - whatever. Other pilots should probably avoid that. Then the controller was obviously confused because the conditions were nothing that any half way proficient instrument pilot would write home about. The pilot wasn't giving out any information - much less the kind that would help him and the controller couldn't get it out of him. They were both unprofessional, but the pilot started it.
@@iflyc77 "but the pilot started it". How old are we? I think we can cut the pilot some slack due to the nature of the emergency. I'm not saying the pilot doesn't have fault here, but I've seen many of these situations where the nature of the emergenct not immediately known but the controller acts much more professionally and does not make the situation more difficult. It doesn't matter who started it, and even if the pilot wasn't forthcoming with information (or didn't know yet) it is no excuse for the ATC's attitude. He wasted time discussing things that should wait until the pilot is on the ground.
Boy this will not be liked. I bet we don't have the real story. The plane is flown a lot in the area. I am sensing bad blood between them. I am not saying either one did not make mistakes. From the time of the unable (tone) and the Lawyer type speech of pilot. I don't believe the pilot. Sounds like he either lost control in IMC or making it up. WX emergency is easy way to make something up. The things the pilot said don't add up - light rain and light turbulence. If the wx emergency is no longer there the pilot should say he is no longer in emergency conditions. Now the controller, he needs to know the emergency conditions of the time it was called by pilot. He has the responsibility to inform other aircraft of bad wx. Where he went wrong is giving lip about the visual approach. I am guessing he sense BS and did not keep it to himself. I never heard of wx emergency on visual approach. Where is the "I am no longer in emergency conditions ". But this is my view - 5100 hours and 23 years as controller.
Sounds like a non emergency but as a pilot it would be nice to expect ATC not to act this way even if I declare an emergency unnecessarily despite thinking it really is one. Just get the situation handled and avoid any unwanted paperwork and an embarrassing RU-vid video.
"whats our vector, Victor?", "We have clearence, Clearence, -roger. Roger". Seriously this ATC . From my understanding , when a pilot declares an emergency its an emergency, no buts. Its not his job to "judge" how big of an emergency is, or if its life threatening, as some ppl suggested in the comments. Even if the pilot was literally cursing him , he should had kep his composure as the pilot is already under stress. His job is to give all available assistance to get the plane to the ground safe. After that its FAAs job to "judge". If there were an accident i tell you this ATC guy would have been in a huge problem. Happy everything went well
Did you know that there's a world record for how far you can push an ATC's microphone up his own butt?? Well, shortly after this video there was, anyway...
