This is the 2nd attempt to get this 1909 Gile Marine engine up and running proper.I thought it was me not getting it set up right, you will never guess what was wrong,
There is a great group of people here that watch Mustie1 videos, but please, can the haters please stop. This is a learning experience for him as well. This trial and error is how you do it. I’m an auto mechanic for 12 good years and i still and probably always will get stumped on something here and there and work on things i am not familiar with. Give the guy a break man. Are you not entertained?!?!?
I agree, I enjoy watching problems be solved. I physically can no longer get out in the garage and try things. But I thought this video wasted too much time. He is very thorough when he does fix something. But this one was just a little too much trial and error. In the hour I spent watching it, I may have found a solution to a different problem.
Yes! If a video is 'too long', then skip ahead or play at 2x speed or, here's a thought - don't watch. I enjoy these in-depth videos because part of the fun is watching a true master learn. Also think it would be great if all these arm-chair experts would post the links to the videos showing how brilliant they are.
alwaysopen given that my comment was from a very long time ago, i can assure you that I didn’t make anything up with my statement. I barely comment and if I do there is a good reason. I’m glad you no longer see the hater comments though.
I believe that what you have is an engine called a "make and break". The timing bar is also your gearshift! Once you develop the coordination, you stop the engine and just at it is stopping, on the last go round it will kick backwards and at that very moment, you reengage the spark and the engine will run the other way. If you want an interesting read, a lot of laughs and some good insights on these engines, find a copy of "The Boat Who Wouldn't Float" by Farley Mowat. That boat, Happy Adventure, was blessed with a make and break engine.
If you do continue on with this motor the piston is backwards. The piston has a special crown shape so as to allow the inrush of air/fuel mix to blow the spent air up, over and out the exhaust ports.
Mr3Charlie I agree, restorer he is not, maybe an experimenter. A true restorer would have researched the motor, found as many schematics and manuals available
I've learned more from Mustie about different engines in and on different hosts than any video poster on you tube. No one on you tube has the flexibility to tackle the myriad of machines that he is happy to do. So all of you naysayers who are critical of his approach to this particular engine just move on to other videos will you. I love to learn with him...he is a patient analytical mechanic/teacher if you will shut up and just let him tinker OK? OK. You are the best Mustie.
The piston is in backward, in addition to the missing compression ring. That part that sticks up is supposed to direct the charge from the transfer port, up and around, so it will scavenge properly and not mix with the exhaust gases as much. You could probably get it to run somewhat, just by turning the piston around, since it has some compression, but it would run much better with both rings and a smooth cylinder.😉
Dan, You re right. The piston is in backward and I bet it would run if turned around. Also, the crankcase needs a petcock to drain out excess gas and to stop the crankcase compression loss.
Mustie1, I think this is a project that David Richards and his Old Steam Powered Machine Shop may be able to help you with. I would love to see this old engine run again and if anyone can get the replacement parts made, he is a guy that help you make that happen. Cheers and all the best!
The other possibility would be asking Abom to machine out a replacement ring and smooth out the corrosion in the bore if you can find the dimensions needed.
I love easy outs, when the job of removing a broken part is just not challenging enough all you need to do is break an easy out in the hole and then you can really test your mechanic skills!
@@grantsnell6782 Yeah it's Easy In and SNAP! Only the square ones work, too. Those spiral things just swage the thing tighter against the wall of the hole!
Looks like this was a dead motor, partially disassembled to paint it, some of the showy brass was reinstalled, several brass parts like the crankcase drain were tossed or lost. I'd guess it was repainted to be a museum or antique store display. Nice paint job. You may want to make up a chart on fuel used before 1930 if going into that era. In 1909 gasoline was mostly half heptane and octane mix of about "50octane" (originally meant 50% octaneC8/neptane vs other half being C7 and lower distillate). That's what screws with guys doing brass era cars and steam cars that haven't been modernized. Coleman lamp fuel is about the closest to old first gen easy to burn, low octane gasoline. Then all the mixes of oil too as well as types of oil. Rotary airplane engines used to burn castor oil. Early stuff is weird. There was a Sears kit gasoline car that didn't use a spark plug but a glow plug (metal bolt), heated with an open flame outside the jug, flaming the internal gasoline with pressure and heat. No electricity at all. No magnito, nothing but fixed valve timing causing pressure. That car can't run on 87 octane gasoline. Flash point is far too high. Oh that car had a CVT compressed paper transmission interface instead of a clutch plate, so it was "automatic".
Very true. I was working in a resto shop when we had a very early car in for restoration. All of the alleged restorers couldn't get it to fire. I mixed up some atf with ordinary fuel and it fired and ran rather nicely ,until they insisted that I remove it and run it on lower octane (read"methanol blend) . The starting problem reappeared. The main jet had been soldered up in the past to allow for 1940's gasoline ,so I removed the solder and again it ran ok. There's more to these pre 1910 engines than people realise sometimes.
Thanks for another great video. According to online sources William Gile (1868-1923) invented this engine while working at the Gile Boat & Engine Co., Ludington, Michigan. The company was one of the town's most successful businesses until the Great Depression hit causing it to close its doors. Gile held several patents on his engines. They came in sizes from 3-15 hp and sold from between $63 and $325.
Hey Mustie! Thank you for making videos like this, your easy way and interesting projects are pure analog fun and educational, also helps me wind down in the evenings. Keep up the good work, you'll get her running! C from Sweden.
Yep. Whoever was in it before wasn’t as good as Mustie is. I’ll bet there is a way to get another ring for it, maybe have it made by an engine maker using the existing ring as a template.
Just run down to the local Auto Zone store. "I need a ring set for a 1910 marine 2 stroke".. --Oh yeah, I have 4 of those in stock. By the way, the air filter for you 2017 Toyota pick up. , on back order. Go figure.
Check out corn head grease. It’s very thick, more of a solid and once it’s being spun around, becomes somewhat viscous but sticks to the gears and the shafts. Seems like lots of people use it as an alternative to the old No. 1 grease.
Your channel is addictive. I’m up through the night thinking I’ll watch a little then from 1am until 4am I must sleep. Wake and then I must see how that engine is doing. Great channel. Keep it going.
Watching you figure things out is best part of this channel! Seems like so many other RU-vidrs want to be an instructor or produce the equivalent of training videos. I have enough of those in my life and suffer them when I am required. What makes your channel so special is how you demonstrate a much more advanced skill - PROBLEM SOLVING!
The corrosion damage to the top of the cylinder was likely caused by a water leak in the exhaust manifold. This is a very common problem with old marine engines and has sent many boats to the bottom. As many others have stated, the piston is installed backwards, The deflector should be adjacent to the intake port; not the exhaust. This engine can be rebuilt. I suggest that you contact another RU-vidr, David Richards. He's an extremely proficient machinist and very experienced with this type of work.
@@bobcranberries5853 It's a nice looking engine. It would be a shame to see it relegated to a shelf or even worst - scrapped. I'd like to see it installed in a small wooden boat as it was intended :-)
Been watching your videos for a short bit. Subscribed today. Thing I like best is you are easy to laugh, whether at the situation, or yourself. Makes for great learning, learn to roll with the punches, because things never seem to go quite as planned, but can usually be corrected if you step back, see the humor in it. It freshens your line of thought and gives you a fresh perspective.
Yes, obviously the top ring rusted to the cylinder and when the initial restorer took it apart it broke the ring. I would bore the cylinder very slightly and get the same machine shop to make me 3 new rings and fire it up!!!
Looks like the piston is the wrong way round. Normally the riser on the piston crown is to deflect the mixture up from the transfer port to assisit the loop scavenging
Aside from the missing ring, it looks like the piston was turned backwards. The fin on the top should be on the intake side to introduce swirl in the incoming mixture.
@@bobcranberries5853 The real issue is how bad the cylinder head is. it would need to be bored out and sleeved. The rings could also be machined, they are just cast iron (You start with a cast billet and machine the ring.) Not worth it sadly, as the engines are neat, but really more historical than working pieces, and running examples are available.
Perfect Circle still makes custom rings I suspect, it's a little more complex than just turning them, they start with a cast iron tube, then slit it, clamp it closed and then turn it, it's a 'perfect circle' only when it's compressed.
Kit Iwamatsu do you understand how many friends and associates mustie1 has? I completely understand about honing,sleeving, rings, nikisil cylinders and the amount of work and money. Hobbies are expensive but his hobbies while still expensive pay the bills. I’ll bet you five bucks we see that engine again......
@@BadHaddy You could get thick walled cast iron pipe in that size pretty cheap. I'm pretty sure Keith Rucker made a set of rings for a steam engine piston like that once. This engine seems to use a lot of steam era tech in it.
Well, it is thanks to you for your attitude of can do that I completely rebuilt my first and favorite Echo 500vl chainsaw, I got in 1980, replacing the crankcase seals, main bearings, new jug, rebuild kit for carb, and now is good for another 39 years. But it's also curiosity and learning by doing that I already had, but you reinforce by like, having fun regardless of finding for example, a deertick on your balls. Not exactly what you had in mind, but no reason to have a cow. BTW I'd take that Gile off your hands!
I swear to god MUSTIE, you could make straightening a nail interesting and educational!! Thanks! You would be great in a vocational high school or college setting, or maybe a forces trade school! Sincerely Rod
Your curious energy is second to none my friend and it's that curiosity that keeps us watching. Guess we are all a bunch of nosy people so long as we can do it from our comfy chair.
I agree with Keith below, the white soapy marine water pump grease is probably best for the bearings. For filling grease cups, I use an old thin and flexy bone handled table knife (pennies from a junk shop) with the edge blunted and the tip ground from round to angled straight. This makes it easy to squeeze out the air pockets and to scrape the last bit of grease out of the can.
fanplant yep. For new replacement installation like this, I've used my grease gun and a nipple to prime the line, then add the cup, fill it with the gun and scoop the cap. I'd have removed the remaining one and cleaned the old thick/dry grease out.
these are fun little engines to mess around with. I rebuilt a couple many years ago and used one to run a 4kw military generator for emergencies. thanks for sharing
@Mustie1 remember that engines need to fire Before top dead center to allow for the flame to spread. look at previous video you will see when it was running it was advanced aka lever to the left. I know kick back is not nice but timing advance is required.
It may run like that, but with the shape of that piston and sleeve it's nothing more that a play toy. It won't produce power and won't be easy to start.
@@ratbag359 I was wondering if the "restorer" could have also bought it dead as a project and got it running in a similar state, (ie used to a high idling high revving modern engine). It certainly runs like an engine lacking compression, but if unaware that it could idle at like 200 rpm and be bump started I wouldn't expect these running characteristics to pass by an inexperienced person as normal. It is a neat engine.
Came here to say the exact same thing. Timing marks are always "Before TDC." The way you have it set, the compression is already dropping before the spark fires.
@@sarkybugger5009 It is normal to start a hand cranked engine with the spark at TDC or slightly retarded in order to avoid kicking backward. Since this engine is essentially reed valved (well a poppet check valve, actually) it will be perfectly happy to run backward...so if it kicks back, it is likely to start opposite the desired direction of rotation. Once you get to know the engine well, you can come to depend on this...many a model airplane has been started this way (that also keeps your finger on the dull edge of the prop.)
A few observations from what I've learned working on somewhat similar old 2 cycle engines although not water cooled. Yes I'm thinking the piston is reversed 180 degrees and needs to be rotated as suggested in another comment. I would just hone the bore and then hunt for a ring of the right diameter and width to replace the one that is missing. Some engine shop probably has some loose ones that you could make fit and you may actually have to double stack them to fill what appears to be a wide gap in the piston, although I can't see that too well from your video. You may be lucky enough to find enough rings of the right diameter and thickness that you can replace all of them. You may be surprised at how well the corroded spots in the upper end of the cylinder may clean up with some honing and with a good ring at the top it may run fine and stay together for a long time if you don't run it for hours and hours. I also think that the hole you plugged in the bottom side of the crankcase probably had a small ball type check valve with a hose attached to rid the crankcase of excess oil since these old engines ran a mix of 10 or 25-1 for oil/gas which built up a lot oil in the crankcase which had to be purged. The hose ran to a catch can of some sort which was emptied or even mixed with the gas for reuse. I've also seen just a hose hooked on a barb on the engine going into an oil filled can which also serves as a check valve of sorts when the hose is immersed in the can of oil. I'm sure the original spark coil was 6 volt since that is what I've seen on others. I'd be uneasy going much above that voltage since the coil may overheat and you most likely will burn the vibrator contacts. Some of the old vibrators had a capacitor across the vibrating points of about .01 microfarads to reduce the sparking and keep the vibrator points healthy. Good luck! Nice project and a very good video! Keep us posted on where you go with this, please.
Mustie, you are my kind of guy. I get carried away with your videos and wonder how time flies when I am tuned to your channel. I only wished you were in my neck of the woods to suckle in some of your knowledge and skills. As a do-it-yourself I am always interested in how things work. Keep up the good job, you are very much appreciated.
Yea a good old Arrow, even if it was 100 yrs old it probably would still run untouched. They were tanks! I wonder if he were to contact Mike (small engine mechanic) in PA or even Road King in NJ. They both work on these old engines. May have a line on parts. Probably can find them at the PA, NJ or even NY shows.
I think this was meant to be a "static display" engine. I applaud Mustie for even getting the thing to run at all. I believe with machine work it can be made to run as it should. I don't think that is what this channel is about. Mustie always says at the end of his videos, "thanks for for hangin' out with me and as I work on rusty junk." He resurrects what he can for not very much money and I am fascinated by his ability. I hope you can come up with a cheap solution for this relic....it would neat if you could put it back in service for the project you were talking about. Good Luck and keep the videos comin'!
Dude, I completely love it. I've dreamed about building a 20' narrow beam launch powered by essentially that very engine... not that I need any more projects. Get that jug sleeved, order some gasket material and find some rings that fit. It's such a simple engine it shouldn't be too expensive to do it right. As to the drain, left twist drill bits until it comes out or falls out... if nothing else re-tap the next size up for the drain cock.
The step on the top of the piston is so that on the intake stroke when the fuel/air mix comes into the cylinder from the intake port it wont go straight across the top of the piston and out the exhaust port and be wasted. Later on they found that shaping and having the intake ports point to the top of the cylinder created a swirling effect that kept the charge in the cylinder until the compression stroke. The "Step" was the old school way of doing this. The fuel/air mix entered the cylinder and crossed the piston hitting the step and this would deflect the charge away from the exhaust port to the top of the cylinder to be compressed.
The Antique Marine Engine Museum at Mystic Seaport may be interested in this engine donated. They are very expert in getting them back running and have a lot of experience. I donated a Lathrop engine (very similar to this and manufactured in Mystic) last Spring and they were very appreciative. I got a free tour of their amazing engine and antique boat collection too.
Paintbrush restoration. Looks nice on display (especially if you don't know what it's supposed to look like) but that's about it. I kinda feared that as soon as he discovered how loose all the carb bits were.
I'm pretty sure the deflector should be on the intake side. Years ago i restored the smallest engine with a deflector piston you'll ever find. It was a 1979 Veco .21 cu/in model gas engine. It had a worn out Dykes-type piston ring. Impossible to find, but someone made replacement rings. I'm sure the ring for your engine can be reproduced too.
Heck back in the day, we called this an “Earl Shibes” redo, it could look great after you wet sanded all the orange peel &runs out then polished it. But no matter how good the car looked, it was still a mechanical turd, and sometimes the body work wood fall off in chunks! I have always despised crappy workmanship on others resto jobs, I would rather pay a junk price for a piece of junk, and rebuild it my self, instead of paying top dollar for a pretty paint job over junk!
@@danhayward9186 you are correct, they do need a muffler for some back pressure. it has one, its the big green water cooled part connected to the exhaust port and the water port on the top of the cylinder..
Firstly I just want to say how I love videos, it’s so good to see you bringing life back to so many things. Secondly don’t give up on this engine, you should be able to buy an off the shelf bore liner to suit the dimensions of tour engine. Then take it to a good machine shop who will then be able to turn to the appropriate length if need be then machine the intake & exhaust ports. They will then be able to machine your engines bore to suit the new bore liner and fit it for you if need be. Alternatively you could get a good machine shop make you a whole new cylinder pot as it is basically a pipe with in a pipe with a cap wielded on one ent and a pipe flange on the other. You can also buy off the shelf high pressure spiral wound pipe gaskets to suit the flange. These gaskets come in a number of different pressure ratings and are capable to handling oil and extreme heat. Only tighten to the specified talk torque setting for these gaskets as they can be over tightened. If your flange is only four bolt and the flange faces are smooth and don’t have small grooves cut
These videos are why I love your channel! We all learn together, even it doesn't work out sometimes that's life! Thank you ever so much for all the work and effort you put into these videos!!
I guessed a 3 inch Piston diameter...A loving paint job.... Sheesh...what a letdown....At least you have calm sunny weather, ours is the exact opposite...
Hey Mustie! On these old engines with thick grease, it helps to get the engine running for a bit so that it's warm. This helps decrease the viscosity of that grease! If you turn the grease cups while it's running too it'll make it even easier. Can't wait to see what you do with this one... EDIT: Yeah after watching through the whole way, you have bigger problems hehehe. Surprised it still 'ran' with those craters in the cylinder. Usually with those engines, you can start them by bumping the flywheel off the compression, makes sense now why yours wasn't playing nice. Since its a marine engine I'd say it spent some time underwater for that damage to occur, as long as there's nothing sticking out for a new ring to catch on, I'd say a new ring would make a big difference (doubt you'll find one though)
He's lucky the thing didn't backfire and break his wrist. You can only advance timing so far. Beyond that point, the motor will kick back and try to run backwards but break your arm and maybe even give you a drill bonnet! 😬😬
I enjoyed your video. This is still very interesting. Older technology whether it suits a modern purpose or not still gives us a view of the past. In it's day this engine was state of the art. I can imagine the engineers who labored over drawings trying to make this engine work.
Adam Booth over at Abom79 could bore that out and press a new liner in. Probably have a clue as to where you could source new rings, or who could fab them for you, as well. Dunno how much he'd charge but he's a good guy, he may give you a discount just for the video time on his channel. Worth a call at least. PS - I believe he's based in Florida, isn't that where your parents are? An Abom79/Mustie1 double-bill video would be huge!!
@@budmartin8297 Darren's parents live in Florida, and any regular viewer would know he makes regular trips back there. I suggested one fix, not 'all these fixes', just one that I've used successfully on more than one occasion and is a pretty standard industry solution. Worth a try at least.
Everyone has "got took" on a purchase every once in a while. Sorry this engine was your moment, since you had plans for it. So slap her together, and make her a shelf queen. I, for one, am waiting for the first Mustie1 Sachs Rotary ressurection... That would make for a cool motorized bike build. Mexican theme it, as the engine is a spinny dorito....
Old Marine Engine Co have a website. On there is a couple of photos from a member called JIM Parrot of an almost identical motor, stripped down. Shows piston complete with rings etc.
Don't give up on it Mustie !! You can do it - your youtube community is right there with all the good advice. Get 'er running right and then sell to a wooden boat builder who has an antique launch project that they need a motor for.
perhaps you would collaborate with some youtuber who is willing and able to do fix on that jug, its very nice looking engine and with more modern carb would make lovely runner.
The size of the missing ring would drop the compression ratio down to low. You have a lathe can you make a bronze ring 15 thow larger than tho bore hacksaw a slot in it. You have a Bridgeport mill to cut the pin groove should run ok then . Main point is to raise the compression ratio. Should take about a day
About your JB weld comment,bet it would work.I was working on a Dodge inline 6 Cylinder engine,found a crack between two of the cylinders.Crack was in the block,shallow.Filed the crack out.filled with JB weld,smoothed it down.Replaced all the head bolts with studs that would allow us to use nuts and flat washers to secure the head.Put it back together,ran like it should.used it for almost a year before it was wrecked.Engine still ran well.
Check out Harry's Old Engines . last I knew he stocked new and used parts for a lot of that stuff . Check Hit n Miss magazine lot of good stuff in there too .
When I was in the Navy in the 50s and 60s,we had little hard sticks of water pump grease. But what you did is just fine. Don't let the haters bring you down.
