It has a lot of parallels with writing styles/story types. You can simplify it into categories, but how you categorize and what defines it has a lot of depth while only growing with time.
I think this one could have done with a more broad concept of something like characters with "flip-like" moves whose game plan is centered on vortex (SF4 Ibuki?) or having a few more examples because if the main topic is specifically Cammy and Akuma it feels less like an exploration on a character archetype and more like one on a move that defines the pressure of Cammy and Akuma specifically.
It does apply to plenty others but i had to go pretty in depth on explaining here, for some examples, Charlotta (GBFVS), Guy (SF), Zeku (SF), Ciel (Melty blood) I could dig around plenty examples from KOF too but they have their own eccentricies and like, im just one guy, its hard to find and create good footage and edit it through here as well as vary it consistently. But i hear what you're saying.
@@DarumaFGC Yeah hard to tell if this should really count as a separate archetype or if it's just a more specific niche of the "vortex" character (shoutout to SF4 El Fuerte, if you end up doing an episode on that). Still think it's an interesting exploration of a relatively specific playstyle, exemplified by the other characters you mentioned, thanks for the video!
That booty had me thirsty. Did you make a video about Shoto character. the everyman. the mix of ranged, grappler, close range and monster? The main character is plain as vanilla ice cream. While others get cooler kits. Like fireballs or a teleport.
You mentioned how demon flippers are like anime setplay characters, and as you were describing them, the whole time I was thinking "this kinda sounds like bridget but if she was a street fighter character" and LMAO I guess I was right
I would like to do a video soon on what a win condition is cuz that tends to be like, what defines an archetype in a major way, and yeah for these guys its all setting things up your opponent deals with on wake-up
@@Aaa-vp6ug man Idk who's telling people that lie, Bridget Akuma can and will hurt you, and then she'll go home and cuddle her teddy bear like nothing happened
I don't think specials with multiple followups, but you can choose only one should be considered rekkas. Rekkas are about how much you commit to it, multiple followups are about creating rps situations. Rekka's give you good pressure, combos, high meter gain, and if they have a looser cancel they allow for frametraps. But the later parts of a rekka move are always worse on block. Basically a rekka is a rekka when dropping it on the first or second move have use cases. In Fei Long's case it was a tool that needed to be hit at a specific distance where the first one was safe on block, but not too far to whiff, so if you confirmed a hit you could continue, but if you didn't, you stopped early. Ragna gains more corner carry if he continue to go with his DP followups, and on his other moves his followups have lifesteal, but massively worse recovery. Faust, had a 5 part rekka, the first one is a long poke, that puts the opponent to fullscreen on hit, and has high knockback on block, the second one pulls the enemy towards him, the third one launches the enemy really high up, the fourth one jumps up to the enemy, and the last one slaps the enemy down to the ground with knockdown. (in strive they changed it to 3 parts, the last one launches the enemy far away). You can decide to only do the first one, and keep the enemy far away from you. You can decide to link a normal after the second one, and combo them on the ground. You can knock the enemy up in the air, and reposition or throw an item. The fourth one can't really be followed up with a combo, only with the last one. While multiple followups that end the special move string at the second input don't really benefit from this. Anji's fuujin is terribly negative on block (at least in +R), it's pointless to not go for any of the five followups. Slayer's Dandy step is wasted frames without the followups. Yeah, in the case of Akuma it does a low attack, but you already made the choice of doing the low attack. There is no risk and reward of doing or not doing a followup, they are variations starting from the same situation, they only fork once, while a rekka forks multiple times.
Im maybe a little less harsh on what does and doesnt count as a rekka than this commenter but they have a point. Really i dont like including Rekkas as part of an archetype because theyre just an input style, theres rekka zoners, grapplers, speed characters, item throwers, parry characters, etc. Demon flips are closer to stance moves. Which is kind of an offshoot of the same thing, not as dedicated as a stance but not as complex as a rekka. See Kagura 5D in blazblue, it has 3 followups and those setup various combos and have different uses but him just pressing 5D doesnt do any damage, just prepares the followups.
Akuma is so hard to define because he can be played in so many ways depending on the player and situation. He is a fundamentals shoto when you want him to be, a footsies character who can dance around in neutral with his great movement poking and whiff punishing, a mixup character with some of the best mix in sf, a setplay character who can turn one knockdown into death by looping the situation again and again, or even a glass cannon fishing for his big nuke option with counter hits, setups, or even a command grab super. In games where he is strong, with a great pilot like Tokido who can use all of those styles at top level, he becomes an absolute monster that really just encapsulates the mastery of nearly every skillset available in SF
sf6 is my first sf and man am i pumped for Akuma. The guy looks so fun, ive been playing Ryu but Akuma is the first character to peak my intrest, cant wait to see him.
this is the first sf ive played online and yea i cant wait either. I also play Ryu so I'll be in the prime shoto mindset for Akuma!! I'd recommend trying out the 3rd strike Akuma on fightcade because his moveset and style is so awesome in that game.
I am just afraid because most low elos will spam akuma and being a new player myself is really frustating to learn to play against akuma everytime i go to older SF i always get my ass kicked by a akuma player. Well tbh i think this is just a git gud situation
The main thing really is getting used to throw as an option in places it isnt usually for other characters. SF doesnt have many tick throws so it feels really weird for new players to go straight from blocking to being grabbed instead of one or the other. Dont be afraid to jump after a blocked air projectile instead of throw teching! That can often get you a free combo and make him scared of running his gameplan
While this vid is pretty conclusive, a good example to include would have been Charlotta from GBVS. Instead of a fireball or divekick, she threatens her space with a fast jump arc and a blanka ball style charge move. Her demonflip is very similar to Cammy and Akuma, but her charge motions and parry really distinguish her within the archetype.
I agree, i just had to be very explicit with things like frame data to explain here, so a few characters like Charlotta, Guy/Zeku, Kimberly, etc didnt make the cut into the video even if they fit the archetype.
These archetype videos are pretty cool, i think a good entry would be resource/resource management (whatever they're called) characters. Like happy chaos from guilty gear strive
Resource management is definitely on my radar but because there are SO MANY different things that count, even puppet characters like Zato technically count
Ninjas are a meta-archetype but speed characters will be covered, and that covers characters like Bang and Chipp but not characters like Ibuki. Theres a lot of ninjas who arent the same archetype in fighting games.
I see a lot of people throwing out guilty gear characters for this archetype, but I personally think I-No is one if you treat her hoverdash like an advanced demon flip. She has so many aerial tools from hoverdash, so she can deal with all of your options.
I thought most people just call akuma a shoto when he plays totally different to ryu and he requires different skills to defend against, so i dug around for who hes most like and well, here we are.
There was gonna be a section on other characters like guy, zeku, kimberly and charlotta, but unfortunately this needed way too many specific examples and, im just one guy. So some of it fell to the wayside in editing
I will, but the demon and the shoto are tied together as part of a season. Similarly, grappler, pixie grappler, and (probably) an unnamed third type of grappler will probably get distinctions amd be part of another archetype archive season.
Very interesting dissection of the move, ive always felt like akuma is way more than just an aggressive shoto in presentation. Have you considered doing a video on characters focused on looping vortex pressure/restands such as scorpion/cyber smoke in mk or some team fighters like many skullgirl characters
Its a maybe. The problem is that say a character like ermac who is on paper a zoner, can equally rely on this versus like scorpion and smoke. Plus most modern games really try and prevent restands so it winds up being more of an MK thing than an industry wide archetype. But it is something i think about.
To attempt to respond to this dismissive comment respectfully, when defining archetypes i look at what all their moves facilitate, how that accomodates playstyles, and how that factors into neutral, and pressure. In this case, their defensive options have always been the same, their knockdown pressure is identical, and while their neutral differs slightly from game to game, both fit squarely in the quadrant between shoto and rushdown for how they play neutral in every game they're in. Cammy doesnt get to skip neutral and has to actually win an interaction before she can start pressure, unlike a true rushdown character who can start blockstrings and mix out of any stray poke (i.e. Karin, Makoto), and akuma cannot reasonably win by fireball zoning and keepaway, and cannot win a fireball war with another character fullscreen, and must play offensive. Relying on his air momentum altering moves (air hado and tatsu) to make anti airing unsafe and difficult, and thusly make demon flip a useful move in neutral.
I know you have talked about brawlers and bullies before, but what about the "Bruiser"? I'm thinking of an absolutely massive character that doesn't necessarily rely on command grabs, but rather armored moves and/or high damage combos off of one opener to obliterate the opponent, I think of SFV Abigail (not season 3 abigail) Gigas or the Jack robots in Tekken, Goldlewis in Guilty gear strive, or king k. Rool in smash ultimate (but i would say he qualifies as more of a bully), just giant characters that plow through everything.
In a previous video it seemed like you included/were going to include “command dash” type characters, like guy/Kimberly, into this category; I was genuinely curious to hear your thoughts on that as I normally kinda separate them mentally. Was I missing your point or are they going to go on a separate video…? Either way nice videos, keep ‘em up!
They do fit but cause of the elbow drop rather than the command dash, in reality the command dash serves the purpose for them that tatsu does for these guys. They are part of the archetype i just had lots of explaining to do as is.
Thank you very much and yeah sorry i couldnt fit them into the runtime here, getting frame data to show how these guys work and stuff already took a ton of time since i had to hand-count some stuff in the video (in editing software, but still) so there was just a lot i NEEDED to show to make my points so some of the other stuff hit cutting room floor even if like, zeku and charlotta still fit this archetype, theyre just not in the video.
While i disagree id like to first appreciate your ingenuity in that you did actually correctly apply critical thought as to how an archetype should be defined and what the utility is in an archetypes definition being malleable. So i think youre correct that hes in the realms of this archetype, ultimately id say hes a simple stance character, where his stances are charge/brawler. Charge characters i havent done a video on but theyre like the older wiser brother of midrangers. Theyre obsessed with safety and defence more than midrangers are. The brawler however i do have a video on, their neutral, mixups and pressure play themselves and on defence you have to use barrier blocking and correct guesswork or else they can literally pressure you infinitely.
I call them snowball characters since they build up momentum as a round progresses by fulfilling some condition. Theyre a sister archetype to the one-shot which i do have a video on already. But yeah theyll be coming sometime.
I think that the title "demon" is a bit misleading. I think this is a good comprehensive look at demon flips, but i dont know that thats an archetype? I thought this video was gonna be about demonic characters like akuma, evil ryu, violent ken, or orochi characters in kof and how they differ from their counterparts, or just things demonic characters share. Im not sure if youve already done something like that tho. Either way, good video
Sadly while the street fighter ones play similarly they probably fit more in "boss character" which is coming. Most of these corrupted, evil, demon etc characters in fighting games are designed to be brutal to play against fairly. But dont wind up playing similarly to eachother. Ill go into that in more detail when it comes around.
No, to be honest if anything hes a speed-character but id like to do a video on like, proto-shotos or something someday. Characters like G, Rashid, Terry Bogard, who have like some of the shoto formula but enough spice they wind up playing very differently.
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i want "nerd" characters, characters that are obnoxiously complex compared to the rest of the characters in the game. Lei from Tekken, Arakune from BBCF, etc etc
Yeah, ill maybe go over this in some sort of seperate meta-archetype series down the line. Because there are say, joke characters that are rushdown, shoto, zoners, etc, just like theres complex characters that are puppet characters, stance characters, parry characters, etc. But most games have a token "lab-monster" character whos only really good if you science the hell out of them. So its in consideration
