My favorite negative edge thing are aoko's orbs in melty, the way they work is you use a 421 motion to set them, but they don't go off and hit the opponent until you release the button. Seems simple enough at first, and then you realize the orb actually stays as long as you hold any one button, not necessarily the one you used to set it, so in combos with orb extensions you often have to constantly juggle what button you're holding to be able to use all 3 attack buttons while holding the orb, I unfortunately don't have the brain capacity to do orb combos but they look really cool
She's the character I play and love how much creativity and freedom that character gives you. Honestly one of the most player expression characters ever made. She definitely makes me love negative edge moves. Fpan games have some of the most interesting negative edge Hilda has one that is an overhead and gets larger the longer it's held.
Zero’s buster in UMVC3 is a pretty standard negative edge projectile, intill you start charging it longer. It’s got 3 levels and on the third level it becomes one of the highest durability projectiles in the game, travels super fast, and can cancel from any special move. Because Zero has teleport dash that goes through oppents, this allows for multilayered unseeable crossup mix that is crazy plus.
Not a fighting game but I love how negative edge is used in devil may cry, sin devil trigger, Nero's charged shot, Vergil's judgement cut, it's everywhere and always super satisfying
Pokken tournament has a ton of negative edge moves, typically referred to as release moves by the community. They can range from more TAP or zonk type moves, to charge type moves, to projectiles, to utility, to defensive options, to almost character defining tools, and even more. Id recommended checking them out and the game as a whole, its really cool!
One of my favorite applications of negative edge are just simple delayed projectiles. They are such simple tools when it comes to being setplay enablers, but they add a lot of depth given how flexible they are. Something as simple as just being able to meaty with the projectile, or being able to save it to cover a second mixup can give an otherwise simple character a striking amount of depth. Also, unrelated, but negative edge always feels great in combos.
So yea we have 3 types of negative edge: Levels, like tap Charges, like Hilde and Stores, like Juri in SF4 (where you dont HAVE to hold the button but it gives you the option)
Perfecti in Akatsuki Blitzkamp has a move that’s like TAP but there’s a few key differences that make it far more compelling, namely that a.) this is a three button game, b.) Perfecti is a low damage zoner who really needs access to her buttons, c.) the strongest version requires both B and C to be held down. This basically means that if she wants damage, or even potentially a ToD off of the Lvl 2 EX, she needs to properly manage her buttons to not be incredibly vulnerable.
There's a crazy curiosity for shizumaru in SS5 special edition, where your negative edge works on character select screen from the moment his portrait appears, so if you lock in shizumaru fast and hold it and your opponent takes a lot of time to choose their character, they take a lot of damage for free if they dont expect it coming.
@@justsomeguywithkaminasshad7145 not me, that's for sure. We used to play a lot and I often abused it just for the fun of their surprised faces when they took 60% in a single hit.
Also if you were wondering why Soul Calibur players call this "charging", its because Soul Calibur and Tekken have some moves that you can hold down to get a stronger version.
@@Ramsey276one No, its just an explanation as to why for people who play namco 3d fighter, something like holding on to a button to level it up before releasing it would have a different name from how a 2d fighter player would.
i got randomly interested in vatista and decided to give her a try and completely fell in love with her combination of charge and negative edge alongside how elegantly beautiful her animations are,such an amazing character. i spent a lot in training mode trying to wrap my head in these new concepts for me ! i really adore negative edge in general and been super interested in trying more characters that use them since then
I was very surprised at the lack of mention of Primal Rage and Liu Kang's bicycle kick from Mortal Kombat until you mentioned you weren't into retro games. Primal Rage Arcade release decided to make all the special moves motion + negative edge which was and still is imo counter intuitive. This was so ill received that on some home console ports and the unreleased Primal Rage 2 they made it traditional motion + button input. Great video very enjoyable watch.
Most of what I know about Negative Edge comes from Guilty Gear, where Eddie acts on button release, and that Third Strike counts button releases for most specials, so you could piano the buttons and have six chances to make tight links. Thanks for the deep dive on this.
I was awaiting the *release* of this vid as soon as you teased it 😎 In KI Gold on N64 (probably this was in the arcade versions as well?), Jago had a red endokuken as well as his normal one. Its inputs were 236 then punch negative edge. It was red, knocked down, and I believe also cancelled normal endokuken in certain situations, allowing you to combo fireballs in a way similar to a fireball xx super input. As far as I know, it was the only special move in KI Gold that was triggered on negative edge.
You forgot the OG T Hawk, who had no whiff animation on throws so you could do negative edge shenanigans with option selects and inescapable throw loops.
I think a reason why negative edge moves are becoming less common might be part of the transition to console. I don't think it's a huge stretch considering they were still fairly common up through the 09 phase but have been getting less and less frequent in more modern games that aren't initially arcade releases. While it isn't necessarily changing everyone's input methods, negative edge moves don't really feel that natural on a pad where you are only using 2 or 3 fingers to hit your attack buttons, and where usually people will only have the luxury of holding the heavy punch/kick buttons unless they remap the inputs (holding one of your face buttons shuts off 4 buttons instead of just 1 unless you claw, at which point you really might as well just get a stick). For example, it's not a fighting game but in Devil May Cry 4 and 5, Nero's charge shot is just a straight upgrade from his regular gun so there is basically no reason to not always be holding the gun button. But even if you remap it to a shoulder button so that this doesn't interrupt your main buttons and camera control, it can get pretty rough on your hand holding a shoulder button almost uninterrupted for many minutes, or hours. That's something that I would think a developer would rather not deal with. I do suspect that if Boxer is added to SF6 that he'll retain his TAP since it's a classic move, though.
I think you're right. I have to change my control scheme to play Vatista in Melty because she simply doesn't work with normal pad controls. SF6 got rid of the mashing inputs for probably that reason and I hate it. I really hope if we get Balrog or Cody, they have these moves but honestly, the evidence shows otherwise
In the case of Nero though, holding charge at all times is not even close to necessary for beating the game or getting S ranks. So I think it adds a lot of depth in giving these different options varying difficulty that each have their own drawbacks. But if you can master using all of them at once, you can go to a level even further beyond just for the bragging rights.
The only couple I can think of off the top of my head you didn't mention were older MK games for Liu Kang bicycle kick and Mileena roll. Kitana's fatality in MK 2 is also hold a button for 5 seconds or something like that
SNK tackled the concept way sooner than that. Big Bear in Fatal Fury 2/Special has the Super Missile Dropkick; although IIRC, it's committed to a charge on D (heavy kick). It's the first time outside of SF2 I saw that implemented... and KI took the concept to a whole new level with exclusive revised move version using this input method (ie: moves that can juggle vs. moves that can't).
Bro the street fighter 4 Cody cpu messed me up woth that move. It somehow figured out that I had no idea how to deal with it so the entire match all I could hear was "Bingo", "Bingo", "Bingo"
Pokken also had some Negative Edge in a few characters (I know Garchomp had one but I can't remember any others. Maybe Gengar), and it made combos super fun to pull off
Literally booted up rumble fish 2 after watching this and picked lug who I didn’t know has a negative edge hundred hand slap, it’s pretty cool! Love the videos conclusion!
My bro. You didn’t go back far enough lol Street fighter 1 used negative edge for all specials press down the attack button>motion input>release attack button 2. Primal Rage was exactly like this as well 3. Shang Sun from MK 2 had a fatally that he could transform into Kintaro. The player had to hold the low punch button for 30 seconds> get the “finish him”>then release to activate the fatality. Good times
I know about SF1 and how the specials work but I really see no reason to talk about that when the video is about the unique applications for specific special moves, not negative edge itself. The MK2 thing is cool though, I didn't know that!
Yeah limiting of a toolkit for a big power move or ability is pretty cool and more simple than you think yet exciting as you learn about it. Also I always heard it as a charge move like in megaman just holding charge buster, you're charing the move. Charging is way bigger outside of fighting games, like in baseball games or party games as well. I think it's more universal in games in general and fighting games is actually the outlier against the rule since charging in those games is usually holding back(most of the time); where therefore it's for motion input instead of a action input.
There is also Zero from UMvC3/MvCI where the charge has levels, the release cancel special moves, and as long as you are holding a button down you are keeping your charge so in most cases you dont lose access to buttons
A cool fact: Krushnood Butt original name is Marco Rodriguez. Nobody knows for sure why the U.S. localization team changed his name for the arcade version of Garou, specially since his original name fits very well his background as a Brazilian Fighter
@@qmanchuYeah, that's weird, since that name only appears in English translations of SNK games (he has cameos in a few games), while in every other translation -Spanish, French, Portuguese etc. - localization teams kept his original name.
There's actually a 4th type of negative edge move, kind of. Basically, you hold down the button, then do a motion input and the special move will come out. As far as I'm aware these motions have only been in 2 games, Primal Rage and Weapon Lord, and I don't think they even have a name, I like to call them prep motions since you have the button you want prepped before you do the motion, though I guess we can also call them negative edge motions. The devs for both games said they chose these types of motions so that players can do the motions with more intent. But I think these types of motions have the potential to be easier to do since you don't have to press a button quickly after the motion and can just hold down the button beforehand. If you ever see this comment, maybe you can make a video about these unique motion inputs because I find them pretty fascinating and there's very little documentation about them.
This is actually the normal kind of negative edge. Karin's hit confirms worked well with this since you could press cr.Mk and then input the special but only release the button if you hit the opponent which would trigger the special attack. Akshon Esports did a video about Weaponlord around the time I made this! Haven't seen it yet but I've heard it's good
Would you say that Zero from Marvel vs. Capcom would count as having Negative Edge? Especially in MvCI, where he has a list of follow-ups he can perform by releasing a charge after a special move
Oh there’s a number of really cool examples of this kind of move in a 3D fighter in the form of Pokken DX of all things. Pokken regularly changes between a 3D and a 2D fighter mid match but most of the moves like this are useable in both. Notably, Machamp straight up just has Balrog turn punch. Plenty of other characters have a special move that only comes out after they release the special button after holding it for a few seconds and Darkrai and Decidueye both have a charge move like this for their light attack button, their heavy attack button, and their special attack button
Pokken was such an interesting game that I wasn't able to give More of a shot. Had the original on Wii U and played with friends but they didn't stick with it, so neither did I
Hmmmm… I’ve always called it button charge, even tap in the og manual says hold down button… I tend to use negative edge within combos, when you press a button during the combo to chain, then release it at the end of a monition for the special…
Negative edge is cool until you switch from arcade stick to pad. At that point they might be impossible to use properly. They're cool but very controller dependent, which is why we don't see them much anymore.
Aside from TAP which I definitely used when trying out Cracker Jack and Balrog, I think the first time I actually heard of what negative edge was happened to be when I looked up how SF1's specials worked: The reason behind why they are considered difficult is that aside from the strict timing, you have to negative edge the button presses instead of simply pressing the button after the motion. Sagat was still a pain in the ass even with consistent Hadoukens but...yeah. That thought aside, really neat video about this little detail
Hey Qmanchu! Just wanted to point out that Jill in MVC2 has one of those chargeable negative edges that shows you when it's ready. It's her 236 punches! you hold them until a little shine appears on her fist and you let it go to release the move :]
My dude you gotta come play on fightcade some time. I'm sure there are much better people to learn from but I'll gladly play and teach you a bit any time :] great video by the way. Always excited to hear what you have to say. @@qmanchu
Bbtag - EVERY character uses negative edge when you cross combo. It's what turns the simple individual movesets into a complex fighting force with the dirtiest mix and combos.
An implementation of negative edge I've seen in fighting games that I think is pretty cool is Pet Shop in Jojo All Star Battle R. While he's known for being a beast in Heritage for opressive he is, ASBR Pet Shop is definitely on the niche side and is someone you rarely see played for how tricky he is to use. His negative edge is an air ok projectile that tracks the opponents last position. This in of itself isn't too interesting, but it plays into his more air based playstyle, having a command jump and mode that lets Pet Shop fly and use ground normals in the air. You should check it out sometime, since it's pretty interesting imo. Great video btw.
@@qmanchu I see. ASBR is definitely a very niche game but it's fun. It's an easy to learn hard to master game imo, with a lot of references to Jojo if that wasn't already obvious. Be it silly stuff like 3 characters with revives or universal otg taunt combos, the game has a lot to talk about. Maybe one day you can do a video on it if you ever pick it up.
One example you missed that I love, pokken. In pokken many characters have release moves, and they're often a key portion of their gameplan, or sometimes it's just an extra tool to use, like darkrai's ]X[ which is a buff using a resource you gain with him, or chandelure's ]X[ which makes your debuffs go away sooner (pretty useful since her reversal debuffs you). But there are 2 characters that their entire moveset revolve around release attacks, gengar and garchomp. Garchomp has his ]X[, which by its own is just a brutal antiair and combo finisher, but if you release the button in the air it becomes a two part move, first dives down, popping the opponent up, and then does an upwards drill. However, if you use this move low to the ground, either by inmediately using it after jumping or using it falling from a jump, it only does the first dive, which as I said launches opponents, allowing for his most damaging combos. It's also a great pressure tool, as it's +4 on shield. The catch is, of course, that you have to hold down the button, and in pokken, if you are holding X, you can't use either X or A, as if you do X+A you get the counter attack. That makes it impossible to use 5[A]>j]X[ in neutral, and tbf, it would be pretty busted as 5A is a very big burst option, and it would allow for a get in for free tool that also combos and is plus on block. To get around this, you have a few options, all revolving around situations where you can't use counter attack, like in a chain of attacks, his run stance or in the air. That's why one of his most common combo starters and pressure secuences is 5Y>5[A]>j]X[. Gengar has a pretty similar dynamic but I don't think it's as interesting as chomp
I know it's kinda niche, but I really wish you had covered Perfecti from ABK. She has an EX negative edge move that takes over a minute to charge with two of your three buttons, and is capable of a fullscreen TOD.
Thumbnail: ChocoKarate (miss me with that localized name WTAF) has a supper that you mash to power up like Yamazaki, but unlike Yamazaki his different forms have different uses! Not a Swiss Army Knife level of difference, but it is a difference...
I have written up several MUGEN/IKEMEN characters with button charge mechanics Mr. Volton: hold P, release on P attack to Taser Discharge hold K, release on K attack to Railgun Discharge
one of my favorite takes on neg edge is perfecti in akatsuki blitzkampf. she has neg edge to charge and then release her lasers similar to falke in sfv before she existed. the longer she charges the more powerful they become and her ex level 2 laser is the highest damaging move in the game but requires her to charge 2 buttons for almost the entire round, essentially giving up her access to her b and c buttons. you can even charge all 3 buttons for the entire round (game only has 3 buttons) and combo her level 4 light laser into level 2 ex laser and TOD most of the cast. very impractical but very funny.
One thing that makes me question is how they use this kind of characters(Zato) in a Pad, as my thumb is struck in one button, meanwhile in other type of controlls you have all of your fingers to each button.
If you play guilty gear strive you already know HC amd Zato get some nasty tech for negative edge specials. HC to the point that punishable moves canceled into negative edge gunshot release become gapless and slightly plus
its worth noting that as of his cameo in kofXV, Marco Rodriguez is now named so across all versions, (why did they change it to "KushnoodButt" in the first place? i guess we'll never know) Anyway good vid man, hope to see Marco in city of the wolves, basic shoto moves with a special dash & negative edge is great fun
In Pokken Tournament almost *_every_* character has a charge-and-release move. Garchomp's probably the most prolific with it, with his Twister being a charge Heavy for 2 seconds then release input, resulting in a plus on block auto-safejump which can be comboed into and out of because it launches.. Or Suicune who can fire off a tracking tornado with multiple levels based on how long it was charged for.. or Decidueye who has two different moves like that.. Or Machamp's Scary Face, a screenwide non-damaging blast which speed debuffs if it lands... And other than powerful attacks, the input is also often used for the likes of buffing or other status moves, like Braixen uses Sunny Day to empower their next special, Shadow-Mewtwo has Recover to heal himself, Blastoise has withdraw to give them a defense buff and being the fastest way to go into his stance, or Darkrai who gives both attack and defense buff depending on how many stacks he spends on it.. Etc... _... Or in one case a joke move with Blaziken's "Floppy Bird"... a backflip which knocks himself down..._
Pokken is one of those games that I played sooo briefly. Just literally a dozen or so matches with friends before they decided to drop it. Every time I learn something new about it, I wish I played it more
Poor old SF Alpha Birdie, doesn't get a look in.But I suppose his charge up headbutt is basically Balrog's turning punch in that series of games. I recall you could hold all the buttons down and release 2 at a time to get the move 3 times in quick succession.
No mention of Weapon Lord for SNES and Genesis/MegaDrive? Some specials are done with motion then button press, while other specials are button held (negative edge) then motion. You can create some interesting combos when you perform motion-button-press to execute one special then, while holding that button, do another motion to perform a different move. I think that's another aspect of negative edge that wasn't covered. No complaints, just a mention.
Yeah Akshon Esports just did a video about weaponlords and that game isn't really what I wanted to explore in this regard. And I do love using negative edge for things like that, especially in rekkas but sometimes it's better to not get too technical in a video like this. I appreciate you bringing it up though cuz I love intricacies like this. Charge partitions too
Interestingly, Hilde's negative edge moves used to be like much more turn around punch in Soul Calibur 4 and 5, changing properties depending on how long you held the button. Rather than being a stronger version of the same move however, they were completely different moves entirely. It was only in SC6 where they moved to the system of using what direction you're holding on release to change the move that comes out. She actually still has a turn around punch-like property in SC6 where if you hold either A or B for 30 seconds and release, you get an unblockable that does over 50%! These are mostly considered not strong because of how central the base charge moves are to her game.
You missed Mileena in MKII and MK3. Just a standart projectile that comes out after holding punch for a few seconds. I think it would be impossible to cover all the examples of negative edge moves, it is present in all fighting games somehow
Lmao yeah there's no way I'd ever try to catch all of them especially since it's not like I play every game. The big thing that interests me about them is how different they are across each game
It's a recent combo breaker grand finals. I'm not by my computer for a while so I can't tell you exactly but I think it's from this year if not last year
Oh I hate negative edge so much if I can shut it off 100% I do. Mk is the worst to do a string and have the wrong move come out because of negative edge
His regular 5H is a button press and I think steady aim is a stance where you enter it and just press the button to shoot. Unless they've changed that since his release, which I know they have reworked him a bit
Waiting on console cuz that's where me and tons of others bought the game and all the dlc lol. It's cool that steam has it tho. SNK said we'd get it on PS but that was before it got delayed a few times
