Are Bivalves Vegan? Specifically Oysters and Mussels? 

allencrider Not sure I'm following. Are you saying we should extend moral consideration to something solely because it is classified as an animal?

Polar Opposite You yourself wrote, "Veganism isn't about treating your body like a temple. It's about treating animals with compassion and respect."

allencrider Did you not read the sentence immediately after that?

Polar Opposite plants are proven to feel pain oysters are not and are a great b12 supply, eat em. www.smithsonianchannel.com/videos/do-plants-respond-to-pain/12151 www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2677858/Bad-news-vegetarians-Plants-hear-eaten.html

allencrider Flees, lice, roundworms, ticks and others are also animals. Surprise surprise! And they probably feel more pain than bivalves. And they need a home too.

interesting point :)

I don't really get why pain is the only factor though. People who are brain dead or severely mentally impaired could be euthanized without feeling pain, but a lot of people think that's wrong.

Musa Preza Then you shouldn't even be eating PLANTS then... There's a reason they call a brain-dead person a 'vegetable'.

***** well, I think musa's point is that veganism isn't about just not causing pain. even if, say, pigs didn't feel, consuming it would be worse to the environment than ating for a well planned, plant based diet. as for the bivalves, I'm not against their consumption, as their farming doesn't seem to cause harm to the environment (no by-catching and filters the water) more so than the fact that they're probably not feeling pain and aren't conscious as wwe mean it.

***** We have to eat something :p Besides plants are "live" not alive. It's like the difference between sperm and a fetus.

This is about bivalves, not bisexuals, such as Mr.Bob with his fondness of both Sandy and Patrick simultaneously.

@@lpsglamourgirl2988 I believe it also applies to bisexuals

THIS!!!

Right?? I lovee oysters so much😩😩 I was gonna give myself the exception of oysters and soft shell crab!

@@Ngan.marianguyen Before you do that, try watching a video called "No, Vegans Do NOT Eat Oysters! Yes, All Bivalves ARE Sentient! (Part 2.)"

I don’t think debates about the sentience of oysters is really the make or break factor in whether people decide to stop eating land animals, though.

Caleb Steele Nasty

same

Seagan, with no dairy or eggs

@@cghul7315 im so doing this, im so happy i can eat them as a vegetarian

Man, I am pretty sure you mean Ostro, Osto sounds like something related to bones for some reason.

I mean, there's definitely nothing wrong with changing opinions or actions based on new information, that being said, a lot of vegans are notorious for constantly changing what they eat, say or do. Not saying it's always a bad thing, but there's so many people not doing their own research and just following what others do, or what's "hot" at the moment.

Ashley Casey I watched that a long time ago, and my stomach hurt after seeing her eat the peels. I bet she's a level 6 vegan, lol

Now I finally understand, vegans are playing a game!

Orthorexics, people at risk for eating disorders, and hyper-moralists make it that way

That's like saying the live cultures in sauerkraut are animals.

Peach Mango Moon omg thank you for this thoughtful comment! ✌️️💚

Im so happy finding this out, its hard to dodge fish in spain ( i go there to see my spanish fam) and i can now eat them guiltlessly

Spill salt on a live oyster or mussel it doesn’t like it...pain or not it doesn’t want to die...

James Van Dao-Vergona and plants have evolved to have hard outer layers to not get eaten, and yet you peel it away to eat the fruit inside

Until science proves that plants feel pain and even panic and react when near by plants are being destroyed, then what? What happens to your worldview then?

Lol ^^. U deserve to know my ig follow Nazarradovets

***** You're vegan and you eat oysters? Are you open about this to other vegans? If so what are their reactions?

***** How does it help you stay vegan

***** I haven't been eating oysters lately, but I think it's perfectly fine considering they don't feel any pain. it helps(helped?) me stay vegan because whenever I was really tempted to eat salmon or something fishy I could eat oysters. but like I said, that was while I was transitioning. these days I don't buy oysters either... but that doesn't mean I'm against it. also, I don't know any vegans so I'm not exactly "open" about it. I would be, if I knew any haha

I'm a new vegan wannabe and I'm glad to have ready your comment. Did eating mussels help at the beginning of your vegan? Are you still vegan?

@CNA sweetpeas I agree with you totally Great source of conplete protein , omegas 3,6,9 and b12 ate some the other day one year vegan and my brain felt awakened like next level.. plus they're very sustainable and filter out water along the oceans as they grow

Don’t fool yourself, I’m never going vegan. I’m an empathic eater for lack of a better word

true. I'd like her to link to the studies that she summons, instead of just citing them without giving us the articles she based her points on or proove them, not that she needs to do that. just think it would feel more complete and more "sciency" and more concordant to her personality, as she shows herself to be a sceptic.

+équi-libre check the description box

Enigma Cipher Have no idea where you live, but in my country, as far as I can remember people are forced to listen day and night the dead flesh, eggs and dairy industries crippled, absurd outdated propaganda... TV, RU-vid commercials, movies, children's songs, leaflets, cooking shows, restaurants... Just about telling us that eating animal products is good, natural, necessary and healthy for human consumption when it’s not. If anything is self- destructive and deadly! There’s a reason why « everyone else does goes wild » about the «wild vegan propaganda ».

"wild vegan propaganda like everyone else does"... you don't know everyone else does that? So didn't you just do the exact same thing by lumping a million people you don't know into an ignorant observation?

@@theanemicproblematicvegan7998 at least she let you know the alternative theory exists. Then you can google it.

Ronia Kiil So if we could breed cows that do not feel pain, would I be a vegan if I eat them?

COld Wind no, i personally wouldn’t. a cow is different to a shell thingy. i’d eat lab grown meat tho.

Wenceslao Futanaki lmao

@@coldwind1791 vegan, no not by the strict definition. Ethical? Yes, if it were sustainable and the cows also didn’t have a brain.

Some people just need to know oysstra-vegans exist!

This. If life on Earth lottery aligned with the chances of life to exist in this universe, then bivalves aligned in the same way the vegan diet nutrition does with bivalves. What nutrients vegans lack, bivalves PERFECTLY compensates. Its as if ostroveganism is the epitome of environmental, ethical, and nutritional diet; even moreso than the often hailed Mediterrenian diet

+Muscle Up Lets cross off emotions and pain, but what about the health issues with eating meat? Just asking a question, not trying to attack you.

That's only in counting what an omnivore CAN eat vs. what a vegan can eat. When we look at what the two groups DO eat, you typically find the omnivores to be the ones lacking, because most vegans make up for their lacking nutrients in other ways.

+TrueHookahKing health problems come from too much meat not any at all. The odd mussel is healthy.

+aattitude Ground flax seeds and sunshine. I found that the reason it was harder was because school never taught the stuff. They taught about meat and society teaches about meat but nothing else. I do eat a higher volume than before but meat is much more dense than legumes, grains and rice. They can't be equated as the same in terms of volume. There's a big difference with what can be eaten and was is eaten. Meat eaters eat SAD in general and vegans tend to focus on carbs like that's all you gotta worry about.

Amy Lorenzo It sounds like you only focus on RU-vid vegans. The HCLF ones. Anyone with a brain knows you need all three macronutrients, but the argument is over how much of each. Also, your claim of meat being more dense than legumes is wrong. Peanuts are a legume and 4 oz. of peanuts has more caloric density than 8 oz of fatty steak.

what plants do you view as intelligent?

What plants are scientifically proven to be scentient and thinking beings?

Plants aren't shown to feel pain.

I would ask the same of animals. Which ones are shown to be sentient? What do you consider pain? What do you consider intelligence? Do you simply discount the possibility, because you separate flora and fauna as completely different? If that is indeed your view, then your mind is equally as closed as carnists, because they have the same views, but separate humans from everything else.

1. The ones with a Central Nervous System 2. Pain is an unpleasant sensory and emotional experience associated with actual or potential tissue damage, or described in terms of such damage. (According to the International Association for the Study of Pain) 3. Intelligence is more complicated term as we don't know how to describe it for sure for humans. But the sure is it involves the ability to respond adaptatively to solve problems in real life and thrive. 4. No, I discard it as science show plant nor bivalve feel pain on are intelligent. Wanting to avoid the pain of the ones that actually feel pain VS. wanting to protect all and every life form... is what makes veganism an ethical choice and idelogy, instead of a dogma and a religion.

great idea! oysters have b12 in it? i didnt know...another great bonus

manga4774 Yup, in fact mussels are one of the most potent sources of b12, DHA and iron without the cholesterol or the cruelty. www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-farmacy/201205/mussel-your-brain

A lot of people who follow the "strict" definition belong to Spiritual systems that believe eating plant life instead of animal life will make you more in tune with nature and closer to "the source" and that's why they try to avoid animal products.

ringo11994 i get where youre coming from, but ive always considered indiginious people to be some of the most spiritually connected poeple on earth..and they do eat meat/seafood sometimes. i do agree that the less animal product in the body, the cleaner your whole system is

ringo11994 and that might even be true for some, though not for others.

+nachoijp You might not be stating Veganism is a religion, but never the less it actually is a religion, and for exactly the reasons you stated. Not all religions are theist.

+Red Baron Farm the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods. "ideas about the relationship between science and religion" synonyms: faith, belief, worship, creed; More sect, church, cult, denomination "the freedom to practice their own religion" a particular system of faith and worship. plural noun: religions "the world's great religions"

The word vegan seems to be your god more than actually just being vegan

***** Of course. 1984 baby! One of my favourite books.

You could doubt whether a fish feels pain or not. Wondering about bivalves would mean you must wonder about plants.

The Vegan Peach Plants also want to live. Thorns, sap, and poison are all defense mechanisms. ps im vegan

The majority of plants we eat doesn't kill the plant itself aka fruit, we take the blossoms from the tree, the tree itself is still alive. Anything else is basically going to rot if we don't harvest it, like potatoes for example. The plant argument is pointless and so fucking flawed. The fact that bivalves are animals is the only evidence I need to why we shouldn't use them. It's animal protein therefore not vegan.

The Vegan Peach Umm no, ha ha, oh goodness. Potatoes won't just rot, they'll grow new potatoes. That is why the plant produces tubers, it stores the energy required to produce a new plant the following spring. My main concern is that there is no sustainable way to eat oysters unless you yourself harvest them and insure there is no by-catch. This would likely mean fresh water oysters or muscles which taste like shit. So I dislike this video for letting those who likes these foods (as I did.) use this as an excuse to disregard the ecological consequences as well as the unintentional deaths associated with it. Whilst there is unintentional deaths with the harvesting of crops, we have to eat something and I'm much more comfortable having the unintentional deaths be that of insect species that have millions of members than the many endangered species in our oceans that we're destroying in countless ways. To the other point you made that most plant food comes from tree's, are you sure? I'm not saying you're wrong, I don't know. I'm just asking if you have a source for such a definitive claim.

Are you saying that mussels and oysters are conscious and have interests?

David Westrup I'm SHOCKED how few people in the comment section mentioned the sustainability aspect of eating those creatures... Well said David!

No, oysters just produce mother-of-pearl inside their shells. It happens that sometimes (accident or purpose), a piece of sand is stuck and get coated juste like the cavity of the shell. Sometimes it is stuck to the shell, sometimes it is loose and becomes a pearl. It is not always round.

Well it depends on whether it’s a mechanical/chemical cascade as opposed to a conscious decision made on the part of the pearl. Grass has been shown to produce certain chemicals when it is being cut, these chemicals have been shown to attract insects that pray on the insects that’s consume grass. Is the grass doing this consciously and as a response to “pain” from being cut/eaten? No, obviously not, grass isn’t not sentient, it does not have a nervous system, it does not feel pain. The same question applies to the production of pearls.

Wrong - bees do not have emotions.

they don't have the centre of the brain that feels emotions, sorry

James Ash and Daniel Miller - You guys get some beehives for a few years.

Mulan 121 You‘re right. My grandpa’s bees were super chill and used to hang out with us children. They were super nice. But I saw other beekeepers with their bees and their bees were super stressed, even aggressive towards humans.

Mulan 121 they don’t feel emotional pain. You’re a moron if you think so. Insects have no reason to even have evolved to have any emotion and they’re brains are too simple and small to have emotion.

Bivalves do have a brain, in fact. The bivalve brain usually gets labelled as a "cerebral ganglion" ("cerebral" means brain) rather than simply "brain", because it isn't contained in a skull. But once you get beyond the semantics it IS a brain, because that's how it functions. Which is why biologists often refer to the bivalve "cerebral ganglion (brain)" or "brain (cerebral ganglion)". There's plenty of evidence to indicate that they are sentient. There are two videos on the channel The 2am Vegan which go into this topic in depth, and there are dozens of scientific research references given in the two video descriptions.

​​​@@user-wv8ju3dw8s No, they do not have brains. A simple Google search will confirm it for you. And you cannot experience sentience without a brain. There's no need to make up nonsense, just stick to facts and objectivity. 😏

@@ohlawd3699 Searches say "no brain" because it doesn't have a skull (which is part of the standard definition of "brain"). So it gets labelled as a "cerebral ganglion" instead. But functionally it's still a brain, and it sustains their consciousness. Hence: "Bivalves have a cerebral ganglion (brain") [Evolutionary Neuroscience journal]. Stop pretending you know more about anatomy than the Evolutionary Neuroscience journal.

You don't have to give up anything because you're not a vegan. Nor are you a vegetarian.

id consider myself a vegan, or that fancy term that was talked about in the video, and it doesnt bother me that some dont think i am! ill still call myself a vegan, and will continue to associate with you guys!

manga4774 Oh yeah? Well I'm a charming and sophisticated guy who is a world class superhuman being! LOL

manga4774 ignore the dogmatic troll.

allencrider No, actually he is. Sorry :)

that's the primary reason I became vegan. also, bivalve harvesting is often done on pillars, which doesn't need to catch them in nets or to destroy the sea floor. they don't require persticides. also, bivalves can serve as water cleansers for the ocean. so mossel and oyster harvesting might actually be good for the environement. I don't know so much if it's good for human health, though. I'd rather not eat something that has been filtering those gross costal waters...

no different than taking the filter out of ur air conditioner and giving it a good lick. No thank you

***** Well, you cant know anything with full certainty, but you can get close. But just think about it. Blow someone's arm off, they still have consciousness, transplant a heart, the consciousness stays the same. Blow someone's brain out and the consciousness ends. It is located in the brain.

+Lily A very good point, well made. But what would you say if those oysters and mussels were farmed?

+Richard Hollis Even so, the oysters and mussels are being used solely to feed humans which is still not vegan.

I agree, I think all of those are good reasons for not eating them. Another consideration is that they may be the only food source for certain carnivorous birds that need to eat them more than humans do.

Nancy Hey - Are you pro-abortion? I mean, the fetus has some nerves. I hate a theory that vegans are playing a game to see who is more left-wing.

***** I don't think you are being hypocritical. But if the evidence comes out, I know you will change, and I will too.

Plus! I feel that this helps me socially with my family because we are largely pescetarian. I just took it one step further. It helps as summer is coming up and I can still be a part of social gatherings around food like our fish frys.

Sarah F well said! Been vegan for two years and have recently incorporated mussels into my diet. Your approach is way more sustainable and a better approach for most people

I completely agree. My only concern with backyard eggs or honey is that it could snowball into what we have now - mass production of both. And there’s no way to mass produce those things without harming them.

+emily morgan This, but she mentions oyster farming, that I wasn't aware. If you get to know where it came from then it shouldn't be a problem.

+emily morgan exactly! she's presenting veganism as only an "animals feel pain" PoV. There are many reasons to be vegan: environmental, ethical, health/medical, etc. and just bc oysters and mussels might not feel pain, doesn't mean that farming them won't have negative implications on the environment they're apart of, a person's health, etc.. V confused by this channel.

The only reason the environment is important is because of the effect that it has on animals

great conversation, yet so sad that only a few care about these issues!

"The only reason the environment is important is because of the effect that it has on animals" Late to this comment, but this is absolute bullshit.

So is a steak but that isn't vegan nor are shellfish.

Me too! I really think the vegan definition should be about animals who are capable of suffering / feeling pain. As vegans we just don't want to harm animals. It makes no sense to put the definition around the biological categorization of animals, like...??

Erin Janus And plants have neurotransmitters which is similar to neurons. What's your point?

Erin Janus I agree fruit is one of the healthiest foods on the planet. I can't go a day without eating enough fruit. BUT, fruit does not provide B-12, vit. D, omega-3s DHA/EPA, and have barely any choline & iodine. All extremely important for health. If bivalves were accepted as vegan, which they should be since the evidence is overwhelming that they do not feel pain, we would have a much stronger movement since many people end up struggling with health even a year after going Vegan, doing everything they could possibly do right. I, myself have tried taking Zinc supplements because I was losing hair (still am) and was very itchy all over my body which are symptoms of deficiency. The supplement gave me stomach aches, and it interacts with other nutrients. It simply did not feel right. So now I am still left with this problem even though I eat a good variety of whole foods. I already supplement B-12 (the default that all vegans need to supplement with) and vit. D in the winter because Canada. My body doesn't properly convert ALA into DHA/EPA. I cannot afford 3 supplement bottles every month. All of these problems I can fix by eating bivalves; non-sentient beings.

***** For DHA/EPA try Ovega3 based supplements. They are a bit expensive, but cheaper than fish in the end. It is done by extracting DHA/EPA from the micro-algae that the fish themselves eat. So you cut the ... fish in the middle ;) It works, I have tested it on myself, checking every two months with a serum lipid panel. My DHA and EPA level got consistently higher, while the same did not happen with ALA alone, my middle-age male body does not cut it anymore... and for some it is the case at any age. But bivalves do not come with DHA and EPA alone, they also bring in selenuim, vit E, vit B12 and many more good things. They are more expensive, but the package is more comprehensive.

***** I wanted to order them but then I would also have to pay for shipping, which would come up to 60$ for that supplement alone. I already supplement 2 vitamins (B-12 and D) so I can't afford another one. :( It would be like 100$ a month in supplements compared to maybe 30$ bivalves. I also remembered I can get mussels for free at my parent's restaurant. Everyone's situation is different. You're right bivalves provide many nutrients, they're a package deal. A non-sentient package deal.

+Erin Janus well said.

hey maybe it would be good with some vegan cream based sauce and coconut oil instead of butter. Coconut oil has the saturated fat that makes butter butter

I'm sure you would find this video interesting: "No, Vegans Do NOT Eat Oysters! Yes, All Bivalves ARE Sentient! (Part 2.)" It talks about the neurology and sentience of bivalves in a thorough and well-researched way.

Why would anyone want to eat stuff that has come out of the ground? gross

+Tara N You obviously havnt had fresh ones straight off the rocks in New Zealand

+Rebecca Wilson You mean like a potato? =D

Pain is irrelevant. Some human beings can't feel pain, and so using that as a criterion for killing or not killing doesn't work. The relevant point is that oysters, unlike plants, have cerebral neurons, and cerebral neurons have been proven to sustain conscious awareness.

Yep. 😊👍

​@@user-wv8ju3dw8syou are bringing logical falacy. Oysters have no brain to feel anything. Its not santient just like carnivorous plants. And Killing people who can't experience pain is more ethical than killing someone who can feel pain but I am not saying killing someone just because they can't feel pain is ok. A human who doesn't feel pain can still want to enjoy life and not want to die because of this urge to live. An oyster have no consciousness it's like mushrooms or trees

+Macabresque If choosing between two, bivalves (bottom feeders) you'd be healthier to eat an egg, in my opinion; and it definitely doesn't hurt the egg.

***** With respect to this subject, there's a tautology I've noticed among vegans that reminds me of religious fundamentalism. When asked how eating eggs hurts chickens, the subject of factory farms comes up, which begs the question: If the chickens are raised in a humane environment, it must then be ethical to eat them. Most people will (reluctantly) agree that this is true; no one has ever given me additional information that egg-eating is morally wrong otherwise. So my question is, beyond raising chickens under bad conditions, why would eating eggs be a problem? And if it isn't a problem, then why say it is, if the real issue is how the animals are treated? This is like saying Oswald wore a windbreaker the day he shot the president, windbreakers should be outlawed. Cruelty to animals is repugnant, why not just stick with that point?Because a lot of people could get behind that, and then maybe factory farms could become a thing of the past.

While I agree the cruelty of factory farming should be our first concern and first step, "humanely" raised chicken and their eggs are still not our property. Not only are eggs extremely detrimental to our health, but we find ourselves in the same old slippery slope that is human entitlement and use that more often than not turns to ABUSE. In their natural state, hens lay eggs until they have a full nest, and if the we didn't remove their eggs some would naturally stop laying them. A lot of them even eat their unfertilized eggs to restore the nutrients that were depleted by the laying process. In the end, it's about understanding animals are not our property and we have no right to claim they are and treat them as such. You wouldn't take a human mother's extra milk from her because she's living in a "humane environment" and that it would go to "waste" otherwise now, wouldn't you ?

T Sandra F. Clyde Well, first I want to thank you for responding, I appreciate hearing other perspectives. Although, I don't see the issue the same way, I appreciate that your interest is in being respectful to and protective of animals, who can't speak for themselves. So, props to you. :)

***** As I read these thoughtful replies, it occurs to me that, as far as the morality issue is concerned, we simply have different interpretations of what animals need and want from humans, and what is a punishing situation for backyard hens and what isn't. If I saw it the way you do, I would come to the same conclusion you do. We're each concerned about animal welfare and each have different guesses about how the hens would experience that scenario. I live in Portland, Oregon and here in the city there are many backyard chicken coops. I've never seen one that gave me cause for concern, and this has been going on for years, which means that it is quite sustainable. Much more so than driving one's vehicle to Safeway. Many people plant edible plants and fruit producing shrubs and trees instead of lawns; community gardens abound as well. All this improves the quality of life in Portland, and conserves natural resources and reduces vehicle emissions. Despite disagreeing with you about the morality of the issue, as an animal lover, I appreciate very much that you, and others, are willing to speak out on what you consider their behalf. And I appreciate that you've done it in a peaceful and tolerant way, which isn't often the case. And when you call for more empathy and respect for animals in general, you're absolutely right. It's our duty to protect animals and all of the natural world, so thank you.

+Lori Caplan yes

going by your logic it also wouldn't be ok to kill plants.

The same could be said about plants... they don't feel pain, so we don't have the right to kill them??

iliketotallyloveit Your original comment it's pretty confusing. So you don't need people stating their opinion about eating animals because people need to eat, period?

but you kill carrots

And plants are the filter of the air. What's your point?

Sirius Neo plants are proven to feel pain oysters are not and are a great b12 supply, eat em. www.smithsonianchannel.com/videos/do-plants-respond-to-pain/12151 www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2677858/Bad-news-vegetarians-Plants-hear-eaten.html

***** Speciesism is a word (not in the dictionary) invented by vegans to insult the rest of us but it seems to work well here to describe anyone who after seeing all the evidence would look at a plant and a chicken and say that only one of the two living thinking beings feels pain and has a right to live. This is not to say just because plants or animals are aware and feel pain they are sentient. The requirement for sentience being well established empathy, advanced cognitive reasoning, , use or understanding of fire, the ability to rise above natural instincts, use of tools stone age or better, use of spoken language or other form of communication that allows for the communication of complicated ideas. all a must to be considered sentient. We are the only sentient life on this planet. All living things have a right to consume other living things if it provides nourishment. Only sentient beings have a responsibility not to consume other sentient beings. The ethical questions hear are given plants are aware is it still ok to kill them for the reasons we do. Simply because we like the look of other plants more and given the amount of pain inflicted by cutting the grass would it be more ethical just to let it grow long. Animals have it fairly good. We now think its wrong to kill an animal unless its in pain, a pest, contains us fall products, is dangerous or delicious. Is it not time we show plants the same consideration.

***** Do you not know anything about health. Animal protein is fine, so are good fats and good sugar's. Its all about portion size and following the food pyramid. www.lifeclinic.com/focus/nutrition/food-pyramid.asp Any other diet is going to be less healthy.

***** milk has nothing in it that can harm you thanks to the 19th century invention of pasteurization en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasteurization

Marthe Endresen I really don't think this is comparable at all... Abortion is a last-resort solution for the person concerned and it could be the only way to avoid further suffering - it has nothing to do with consumption. Nobody is "pro-abortion", they are pro-choice. They are FOR having the freedom to make their own decision and it's not a decision anyone takes lightly.

Last resort? Oftentimes not, oftentimes it is used as a contraception....

And I also think it's pretty daft to be for abortion in all stages of development, which was what I asked about. Cause having an abortion then would most certainly cause suffering

Nobody? Are you serious, yes they do. Most abortions aren't done for rape and such issues. Of course not in the sense that they use it before they get pregant, but they can't be bothered to use any before cause "hey, can just get an abortion if I get pregnant" etc. It seems to be the attitude towards it at least. I am for early abortion, as in before the fetus can feel pain, but beyond that abortion causes more suffering than it prevents imo. If one is for abortion thorugh all the months (Besides the life of the mother being in danger) I would say that is pretty sick. And hypocritical if you are a vegan trying to reduce suffering

And I used it as a phrase, not ment literally. But of course you go all attacky just because I dare mention abortion and not shout anything but "a womans body, a womans choice". Exept when someone else is in that body, which at some point can feel pain and suffer. Instead of commenting on what you feel about late term abortion vs early abortion, or even abortion before and after the fetus can feel pain, you just focus on that one phrase. Classy

You might want to check out this video: "No, Vegans Do NOT Eat Oysters! Yes, All Bivalves ARE Sentient! (Part 2.)" Lots of scientific citations, old and new, pointing to bivalves being sentient.

+Nils-Erik Elofsson What's important is ethics, not the strict definition of veganism. What exactly would be wrong with eating meat grown from stem cells?Sedating and eating an animal is completely different because you are ending the life of a conscious being. You are snuffing out something that thinks and feels.

Sure.. I agree that ethics is the most important aspect of veganism... eating meat will however never be considered veganism in my book. Why not call it something like "ethical meateating"?

Actually yeah I'd consider stem cell produced meat completely acceptable in an ethical based diet.

Your argument interests me; there was a book titled The Screaming Carrot and Prince Charles talks to his plants; a worthy man but I am trying to make a pragmatic point.

Sam Smith also they are dirty anyways. I used to love them before I was vegan along with squid, octopus, lobster, clams, scallops and flounder. This was mostly due to my Italian background though and I havent eaten them since I was a teenager. Knowing all the pollution that goes on today, even if you arent vegan for ethical reasons the underlining health hazards of shell fish should be enough for anyone in the right mind to turn them down.

Sam Smith My concern with animal products is not about how the sensation of eating it is nor is it about the strict biological definition of what is or isn't an animal. My main concern about animal products is about animal suffering, and hence about sentience. If there is no sentience, then this concern does not apply.

Kamizushi Akinari When I say they feel like meat, I intended for it to suggest that they are sentient, therefore shouldn't be eaten for moral reasons (not because the texture of meat is displeasing).

Sam Smith But, as the video explain, they do not have a brain and hence are probably not sentient.

Kamizushi Akinari Yeah ok, sorry, misunderstood! I watched the video a while ago. But if it's "they are probably not sentient", then the fact that they seem like meat is enough to override the probability. Why take the risk if you're not sure if they can feel or not when they seem pretty close to meat.

Many shellfish bury themselves deeper in the sand or attempt to swim away if under attack so they are fighting for their lives and don't want to be eaten.

+Nikolay Nikolov No. The human still wants to live. An oyster does not. The nervous system argument is how we derive sentience, not food suitability. I don't kill every tomato that I see, only the ones that show up when I am hungry.

Hmm... I don't know... I am not sure our science is advanced enough to determine what an oyster wants and thinks.

+Nikolay Nikolov I agree, but as is with most scientific theories, the chance of it being disproved are extremely remote, and if we waited for every scientific theory to turn to law we would never be able to do anything.

+Nikolay Nikolov in addition, you have the DUTY and privilege of eating said human.

+Nikolay Nikolov Couldn't the same thing be said about plants then, "I am not sure our science is advanced enough to determine what a plant wants and thinks"?

They can be farmed.

rope farmed oysters eliminates this concern :)