Having driven a Chevy Volt (Gen 1 and Gen 2) for 8 years, I can say without a doubt the biggest problem with Plug-in Hybrids is consumer education. So many people asked me about my car, and the first question they would ask is "how far can it go on battery alone." I would tell them 53 miles, and the reply I always got was "that's it? what's the point?" This is also how I figured out that 99% of drivers have no idea how far a mile is. Most people thought 53 miles was more like 5 miles. So, I eventually changed tactics and answered that question like this "It can go an hour on the highway, or 2 hours in city traffic." Then suddenly people could understand. Second of all, people seemed to not understand the concept of plugging it in every night, and having a full battery of 53 miles each morning and how that would work with their commute.
Because the globalists don't want the average Joe to have a car anymore... car means freedom, a sense of achievement, and slaves can't have that. They think that about us, believe me...
Isn’t that just trolling themselves? EV’s might not be taking over the entire automotive industry, but they’re definitely a part of it and will be for the foreseeable future. Making a bad EV is just bad for your brand with 0 upside
@@thecanmanification additionally in 11 years Toyota will only be able to sell EVs in the EU (and maybe places like California?). I know Europe isn’t they’re best market for years now, but it’s still an important market for every automaker.
He has the same concerns as every other ev questioner, everyone worries about range it’s actually the number 1 concern with reviews. Imagine you lived in like Florida or Louisiana during hurricane season and you can’t drive for 2 weeks because a natural disaster
When I talk about my ev to people, I try to be as honest as possible. During my town driving around town I rarely charge at charging stations and I use 110v charger at my house, being that my car is a Chevy bolt I do struggle with road-trips. People who talk to me immediately think that this is proof that they aren’t ready so I try and explain that the tech is here, it’s just too expensive for me but that it’s coming. Just look at the Chevy Silverado EV, the rivian r1s, and the lucid air touring all with high range numbers and high speed charging. I give it 10 more year and you’ll see 400 mile range cars in what is considered an affordable number
@@corey9313it’s the infrastructure and the maintenance and the price . Usually it’s the maintenance but the media is trying to push EVs but but EVs have so many problems
I would argue that 30-40k cars are also way too expensive for common folk atleast where i live because most people here just drive with their 500-7500€ cars.
the reason its in luxury cars right now is because it's just not super cost effective to make them in cheaper lines at the moment. It'll take off soon enough.
Good is quite the stretch. BYD is definitely upping their quality and at their pricing and trajectory they could compete with US German and Japanese cars.
No it doesn't, it means less demand for new EVs, because the depreciation makes the loan more risky and future trade ins less valuable, meaning your 3 year old EV was never made in the first place for you to buy it used. A low value for used EVs means precisely that, despite there being so many of them, nobody actually wants to buy them at a higher price point, and the people who have them want to get rid of them, so the market is currently oversupplied. If demand at a higher price does not improve (and all indicators point that it will not), then this will be a new factor of the EV market that will make new EVs simply more expensive (or, in other words, "unaffordable" for more people) than equivalent gasoline engine vehicles. It is yet another node on the evidence graph pointing directly towards EVs being on a general decline and not sustainable at current levels long term.
@@brofist1959 Supply and demand are both controlled by Government incentives. In the case of supply, the Chinese Government. Tesla and other manufacturers like Polestar make and export a lot of cars from China.
@@MrDuncl Of course supply and demand are influenced by governments, and they never have not been and never will not be. In the case of Chinese production of EVs, however, there is very little impact on the American market, given that EVs produced in China simply are not sold in the US in any meaningful amount due to extremely high tariffs (which may or may not be desirable, depending on your goals and positions).
A survey was recently released here in the UK revealing that 54% of UK households are incapable of home charging. Most of us live in terraced or apartment housing, and even then a driveway isn't guaranteed. Immediately that puts half of the UK population out of the EV market without serious compromise. Obviously it's far different country to country, but in terms of the UK, a severe lack of thought was put into the EV market here.
The government are increasing taxes and costs to drive petrol and diesel but they need to fit electric charging posts everywhere a car can park BEFORE trying to make us all drive electric 😅
@@erik.... But if I’m only there for 15 minutes, it doesn’t help much. Home charging has the greatest potential and if you don’t have it, you don’t have it. Employers don’t have the resources to invest in chargers.
There's a substantial portion of the population that can't afford to spend more than $10k on a car. There's a ton of used car options that are perfectly fine for that budget, but none of those are electric. Older electric vehicles will have expensive battery issues, and those people who could then afford to buy them won't be able to fix them.
I tend mostly to agree with you, having bought multiple sub 10k cars. I think we can see a preview of what will happen in the used Prius space, (where the 1st-3rd gen are now needing replacement batteries). There are a lot of fly by night shady battery people selling snake oil and "rejeuvenated" batteries. On the other hand, there has actually been competition in the used Prius battery space with some decent competitors selling new replacement kits, which forced Toyota to vastly drop prices on replacement batteries for old Prius. I'm not sure what we will see in the future. The thing about older Prius was it used Nickel Metal Hydride batteries. Lithium is already much cheaper than NiMH. It is possible that Lithium battery prices drop substantially and in that case, you could see sub 10k used cars with brand new lithium batteries installed and still stay under 10k, if we are only considering the raw battery cell cost. The thing is that a lot of these systems are highly proprietary in their electronics so it can be difficult for third parties to manufacture plug-in replacements for those battery packs. A good example is old Ford electric cars from the early 2010s era. I have heard Ford doesn't even offer replacement batteries for those. Toyota on the other hand will sell you a battery for an 20 year old Prius no problem. However one thing I will say as far as labor cost goes for replacing a battery - replacing a Prius battery is actually much simpler than doing major engine work, and does not require a bunch of specialized equipment. Just simple hand tools and a half a day of work. Manufacturers could, if forced, build their cars so that battery replacement was a DIY job.
So here is my story; I drive 80 miles a day to work and I had a grand Cherokee V6 and was spending 75$ minimum a week (not counting weekends). I came across a kia ev6 at 20k $. My job is a EV focused bodyshop and the owner said “if you ever get an ev, you can charge it here for free whenever you want”. So I traded my cherokee, got my moneys worth and ended up with a “new” car with under 40k miles, 100k mile certified warranty, no real maintenance cost and save 300$ minimum a month in just gas. My case is very situational but every star lined up to make sense to buy an ev, aside from the fact that I love the look and feel of it. Still have my r33 skyline as a back up for when I wanna toy around.
Ive had an EV for a while and love it. I haven't touched my Honda Pilot.....It's very long in its life. I leased an EV Honda Prologue. Roadtrips aren't that bad, just need to plan it out. I never got one to save the planet, just wanted to get something different, didn't look futuristic and still had buttons and door handles.
I’m also considering an ev for my 60 mile commute. I’m daily driving a highly modified 335i right now and filling up every few days with 93 is not fun lol.
Honestly, almost any car these days are very situational depending on the person driving them. I own a Ram 1500 because I owned a few things that needed towing power and I owned a house, so I needed the bed/towing capacity of a truck. I don't have those things anymore and just live in an apartment, so now a truck does not make sense for my current living situation. Same can be said for cars vs. SUVs. Not everyone needs a big cargo area and can get by with a smaller car/hatchback. The only thing EVs do is add to the situational pool; an EV can make a lot of sense to the right owner. I contemplated buying an EV while I lived at the house, because it would have made sense for me at the time. It no longer makes sense for me to own an EV now since I live in an apartment, but that doesn't mean EVs are 'bad.'
Yea for my needs it’s great. Wife has the gas suv for out of state trips. Otherwise we have solar panels in our home that negates charging costs, got a 41k tesla at the time had a 4k instant rebate, 7500 tax credit, and no sales tax.. I have a 30 min commute each way..and can get to and from almost anywhere in NJ in my charge from home.. literally perfect for my use and has little to do with any other factors
Don't get your point on range, superchargers are literally everywhere and 10-80% takes about 25 minutes to charge. So if youre doing a 9 hour trip that means two stops 3 hours aparts for 20 minutes, which is about as often as most people stop for food or bathrooms.
no superchargers are not literally everywhere. Average charge times are 45 minutes to an hour. If the cars in front of you are just starting to charge you could be their hrs.
The charging thing is a misconception. I just drove from Massachusetts to Washington, DC in a model y, and I stopped every 2 hours to use the bathroom. Every time I stopped I plugged in, and when I was done using the bathroom I had enough range to make it to the next rest stop. You don't have to sit and wait for the battery to be full to take a road trip, you just have to plug in every time you go to the bathroom.
Doug is well known to essentially be doing the Cannonball Run when he crosses the country. He says that he takes off his front license plate once he leaves CA so that he is less easy to target by police. Of course he would say that charging time is a problem because he's probably averaging 90 mph on the trip and any EV would lose half its range at that speed.
@@TheVonMatrices I was doing 93mph for almost two years on my trips and since two years I'm doing 87mph on my trips and can happily report, that my EV did not lose "half it's range" at that speed. To cut it in half, I'd have to drive 124mph.
I have a Kia EV9, and I love it. That said, you need to get out more. Charging is basically a non-issue for TESLA drivers, and you happen to be commuting along the most EV-friendly corridor in the country. Of COURSE it isn;'t a problem for you! (Or me, usually; I live in Philly.) But, for a lot pf people, it is an issue, and it will take some combination of greater range, faster charging, and more available charging infrastructure to coax them out of their ICE cars. The Government should've bet on plug-in hybrids.
<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="630">10:30</a> I’m not sure forcing Toyota to comply to a rule is the best described as “incentivizing”. Why not give actual incentives to automakers instead of forced compliance?
@@outdawrzmuhn that $7500 incentive at the end of the day is for automakers. If they build a good EV in America they get a guaranteed $7500 from a customer
Nobody forced Toyota to make a terrible electric car. They had every right to just bow out of the California market. There's a distinct difference between following rules/laws and being forced into something.
I had a PHEV and while I liked it I wanted a full EV after a few years. The worst part is the additional complexity so out of warranty you essentially have the worst of both worlds in regards to repairs. If you're only keeping a PHEV while it's under warranty and trading it every few years then you don't have anything to worry about and it's not a bad option. If I wanted to keep one for 150k miles I would be very weary of the repair costs especially after 100k miles. 1-1/2 years and 40k miles into a full EV I'm happy to never have to do oil changes or other "normal" maintenance. I drive 75 miles round trip every day, plug it in every evening, rinse and repeat. I don't think I could ever go back when it's all one less thing I have to do. As one of my friends said years ago and made me rethink my gas-only car position: "Before I tell you what car I bought I just want to say one thing. I don't give a S#!T about the environment - I'm just lazy and hate stopping for gas."
I love your friend's quote. My wife really appreciates that about her car. I think PHEVs would be worth considering if the EV range was improved. 60-80 miles EV is 17-20kwh if done properly and a small 2.0L 4 cylinder or smaller to charge it after would be great. The BMW I3rex was a good idea and the Chevy Volt were great plug-in hybrid ideas. BMW messed up the marketing of the I3rex and called it BEV with range extender instead of a PHEV.
I’ve shied away from PHeV because of this, I’ve spoken to a couple of mechanics at dealers and they said the same thing, great cars until they get out of warranty, then you have twice the complexity, twice the parts and twice the potential problems long term.
Right. I can be an eco-warrior when I want, but I love the power and silence and never stopping for gas, never having my catalytic converter stolen, virtually zero-maintenance, but most of all, I'm a huge cheapskate and did the numbers. We have super cheap electricity here, about $.02/kWh, and I can put 200 miles of range on for $2-3, and have saved $13K so far in not buying gas. This car will have redeemed its purchase price entirely in gas savings before we are done with it because with cars, I buy quality and then hang onto cars until they are screaming to be put of their misery.
Totally agree, people love to repeat the usual talking points about how EVs arent suitable to people without garages or live in apartments. They miss the counterpoint, EVs are frankly fantastic if you do have the ability to charge it overnight. Never have to get gas, cheaper to run per mile, significantly less maintenance. They are perfect for your average person living in the suburbs.
For a fun plug in hybrid wagon, what about the Volvo V60 Recharge? 44 miles of EV range, plus a Polestar tuned Volvo wagon with 455 hp and Ohlin adjustable dampers? <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="757">12:37</a>
I have a BMW X5 45e; it's great. One note: you can charge a PHEV at home overnight on 110V, as I do, with no special infrastructure, and usually get to near a full charge, which is very efficient and practical. You're spot-on about the value propositions, and spot-on about the bad incentives distorting the market.
PHEV is the correct way to transition toward full EV. It is the best of both worlds. Gives people who can charge that option for local commuting, and allows access to 100 years of gasoline infrastructure.
THIS! I drove a PHEV from 2012 to 2014 and have driven nothing but fully EV from 2014 to present. The electric drivetrain is SO superior to ICE that it boggles the mind. You cannot overstate the luxury of never having to visit a gas station ever again. And charging is a non-issue on a day-to-day basis and only requires a bit of planning/research on a road trip. I can't see myself ever going back to ICE again.
@@bradwillis7181 As Doug noted, there are a percentage of people for whom EV's work well, and/or are okay with dealing with the hassles of EV ownership at present, and it sounds like you're in that group. I don't know that I'd agree that the EV drivetrain is necessarily objectively superior; there are some arguments for ICE/PHEV which seem reasonable. It sounds like your perspective might be a bit biased. I'm glad EV's work for you; I just wish more EV proponents were sensitive to the drawbacks others perceive with them, and understand why they may not be for everyone.
We sell A TON of X5 xDrive50Es. Many of our clients go months without gas. Rumor is that BMW will begin incentivizing the X5 PHEV like they do their BEVs, which will be great considering 40-50 miles is more than enough for most people. Great take Doug!
I think the most essential point over looked with plug-in hybrid vehicles is the fact that they include all of the existing repair and maintenance responsibilities of a traditional combustion engine vehicle but also add the stress of introducing an additional technology and potentially expensive components to repair. EVs simply turn on and go, every time. Replace your tires every 15k miles and brakes every 25k miles and with a 10yr manufacturer battery warranty, ownership is relatively stress-free for the first 100k miles on many EVs. Plug in hybrids are essentially lower powered gas vehicles with EV technology. When choosing 2 between: Reliability, Speed and Range I would choose the Reliability and Speed combination of a full EV every time (especially when the range considerations are cents/kWh vs dollars/Gal)
Massive EV cope. You can't use speed in real life. My 2005 Civic is just as fast as a Ferrari in real life uses, unless you want to go to jail of course.
I think plug-in hybrids haven't taken off because: 1. Automakers generally compromise the storage space by bolting a battery onto an ICE vehicle. 2. More expensive than hybrid and you don't really get a benefit unless you have a house to charge it at 3. People still falling for the "worst of both worlds", really maintenance falls somewhere in between BEV and hybrid 4. Usually pretty slow in electric-only mode due to limitations on how much energy a small battery can discharge 5. anti-EV people see them as EVs, and pro-EV people see them as ICEVs 6. People thinking worst-case and judging 20-40 miles to not be enough to be worth it Despite all these personally I think they're the best choice for anyone with a house that doesn't regularly drive long-distance and isn't ready for BEV.
I have a PHEV (a 2023 BMW X5 45e) and really do think they are the best of both worlds. One thing I would add to your list is that some PHEVs aren't the best in their implementation. They can often have a strange transition from electric to gasoline power, have poor brake feel, and just have too little range to make it worth it. IMO, 30 miles of real range is the minimum to make it worth it, and 50 miles is good.
Regarding range, a lot of people don't realize you still get the benefit of having a hybrid after that initial range. I have a Volt and as the engine runs it charges the battery enough that it goes back to battery-only at times so it is still uses a ridiculously low amount of gas.
@@kamX-rz4uy The overall efficiency is pretty bad tho. If you have to do long trips, just get a diesel with a big tank. Problem solved. We can afford having 3% diesel cars when the other rest of people just get full electric, because they don't need that range. And yeah, the US has another problem, because why the F you have to go ANYWHERE with damn car. Get a train system for commuting, don't waste so much land for suburbs to force people in their cars. Its crazy to me that this it not your #1 priority. Beside a couple of big cities, trains are just a fantasy for US people.
Good points. You rightfully pointed out many of the challenges. The one thing I would double down on is the fact that have to do maintenance on both types of engines will probably kill you but also from an auto manufacturer ... your costs of manufacturing and designing a car that can do a bit of everything and is a jack of all trades means you will be seeing the cost of such car sky rocket. I dont see such a car being remotely cheap or affordable. The challenge would be having a car that is heavier (battery), yet needing to be better on fuel consumption, lose room because of the challenges of incorporating two engines. One of the biggest things for me personally which is pushing me to switch to a BEV is because of the long term maintenance cost on my current car... which is ultimately now becoming a challenge. Sure the first 4 years most brand new cars wont have much maintenance cost either way, however, it is that 4-8 year or even 10 year maintenance cost. What does that look like? A car should last you 8 years. That is the average length. I think if you can push it to 10 years with minimal maintenance you are cooking with gas, no pun intended. I do think there is a place for the PHEV. Likely within the trucking industry I hear doug though especially on the road trip factor. When charging from 0-80 gets down to sub 5 minutes that could be a major difference in and of itself.
The thing about plug in hybrids is that they’re only great, if used as Doug described. The reality is that people often don’t. In Germany PHEVs are (or at least used to be) subsidised as company cars. If you got one, the tax was only a fraction of that of a comparable internal combustion car. So people got the PHEVs. However, Gas is usually paid for by the company and people just drove the PHEV like a normal car, never charged it but carried heavy batteries for no reason.
If the US didn't put trade tarrifs on Chinese EVs, many Americans are willing to accept the negatives of driving EVs because they can buy a brand new BYD Seagull that has 250 mile range with a very affordable cost of only $11,000.
The US tariffs are only to protect late to the party American auto manufacturers. They did a similar thing to Japanese vehicles during the gas shortage. History repeats itself.
If I'm not mistaken, this is what Edison Motors is doing with their trucks: making them phev. If the battery dies, you can still run the diesel engine to run the generator to get where you're going. I think that's the best solution for many regular folks
@@remix-yy1hs but real life tests have shown it goes 1450km on one tank. My Audi A3 does 1050km on one tank of petrol with just ice engine. And it was under 30k aswell. If you go diesel instead, I am sure that 1050km would be near BYD without having hybrid system. Can be good to add that the Toyota is only sold in China, just like the other byd tech car they have.
<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="675">11:15</a> Automakers would actually rather not make PHEVs, complicated to design and manufacture since they have both to a much greater extend than just a regular hybrid.
Expectations I’ve seen for automobile prices had PHEVs becoming the most expensive option by around 2029 as EVs become cheaper and hybrids continue needing both sets of engineering
Apparently they’re also the most likely to catch fire? Both sets of hazards, I guess? But being able to do the vast majority of daily driving on EV battery while also being able to do road trips conveniently is undoubtedly a compelling draw
i live in a rural area of California that has no charging stations nearby & see them stranded frequently during the hot summer & cold winter. seems the heating & cooling eats up the charge
Plug in hybrids also solve 2 more issues 1. They make suing your gas engine more efficient and less polluting because you are able to store energy that would’ve left the car as heat in the brakes and you can use the electric motor to decrease the amount of time the car is in an inefficient part of the rev range 2. Enthusiasts and gas only drivers would be much more willing to switch to a plug in since it doesn’t require a change in behavior since you could use it as if it were purely gas and the drive can be pretty similar
Main issue is the non-tesla public DC chargers--- not enough of em, and many are unreliable. Since most people rent, they can't access garage/home charging. There needs to be waaay more DC fast charging in city centers and on the road. Even making a simple drive from LA to Vegas, it's a roll of the dice for charging-- all adds up to more time on road vs hybrid/gas options (except at Baker Electrify America-- nice charging there)
@@IrishCarney Most Americans do not, most middle class Americans live in detached single family homes. Most Americans live in apartments and townhomes, same as pretty much everywhere else, we just have a larger rate of detached single family homes per capita than most anywhere else.
Many of Tesla's chargers are available for other cars, atleast here in Europe. In Norway they have chargers everywhere, even along the street there can be 11kW och 22kW chargers so that people that live in apartments can charge pretty cheap over night.
In the second half of the 2000s, SUVs and pickups weren't selling well. People were saying that they were on the way out as daily drivers and econo-cars/hybrid sedans were the future.
@@daytonaguy3584 Yeah. Though as a city car only it seems perfect. I'd try one if I could justify a single purpose car. A gas car for road trips and an ev for the city. I make so many trips around town doing errands and what not that it would make sense. I"d rather not use my gas car for that.
Yep, I remember that. We had a crazy price shock on gas. I sold my V6 sedan and daily drove a 75mpg motor scooter for 2 years at that time. Then gas prices crashed and trucks have gotten bigger every year since until your head is barely over the top of the hood standing in front of them.
All cars depreciate and EVs aren't even on the top of the list of models, many models in the 100k range (BMW, Audi, Cadillac, etc) depreciate more than any EVs.
Also, depreciation has been _great_ for a subset of buyers (like me) who have been waiting for EV prices to come down, and buy used cars anyway. I had my last car for 7 years, I plan to have my Model 3 for at least that. I don't really care about depreciation. A car is an expense, not an investment. The longer you keep it, the better the financials are. And there's way, way less to break or wear out on an EV.
@@buttercatz99 You're just making stuff up. Go look at a used Audi e-tron and see how the residual is at 3 years - forget about 5. I was considering buying a used one because they have a very nice interior but that's where the "nice" stops. True to form the Audi has a high chance of front/rear motor failure due to the coolant chamber overflowing. It's a known defect on Audi Forums and Audi still hasn't changed the design for the 2024. Anybody who bought a Mercedes S class in the last decade knows those things are money pits outside of warranty. A coworker is dumping his after needing new air bladders and ECU just since Feb of this year. You can buy a used ID4 at basically 55% of MSRP at only 3 years out because there's currently a recall VW hasn't been able to correct even after 2 months (919A). Some sucker buying a MYP in 2023 for $72K is eating it in depreciation but somebody who bought a MYP in 2021 is doing just fine (since that was before the covid pricing).
Except for the whole range and infrastructure thing, there are four major problems with EVs: 1. They are still too expensive compared to ICE cars. 2. You need a private parked space where you can install a charging station. Kind of hard if you live in an apartment and park on the street. Or even an apartment building with shared parking lot. 3. Most of them are SUVs, and not everybody needs or wants an SUV. 4. Longevity. I know that if I buy a 2024 Petrol or Hybrid Corolla, it's good for at least 10-15 years. Even if it's a hybrid, I can replace the battery for relatively cheap. For an EV, where the battery costs like 1/2 or even 2/3 of a new car - I highly doubt it would be financially viable to keep an EV on the road for 10-15 years. But hey, the manufacturers would like that, won't they?
@@vadim6385 1 i can buy new MG 4 (64 kWh, 201 hp) for $25.225 2 it's could be problem 3 in US market? Yes. In the world? No. 4 it's good for at least 10-15 years, if your annual mileage less than 7k. If more get ready for breakdowns. Nowadays IC cars isn't that good, like in previous years.
To be fair, when you hav arushed roadtrip, you don't do 45 minute stops, you do 20 minute stops and shorter stints. You driver the speed limit plus VAT, drive 2 hours max to almost empty and charge back about +60%. Why stick around for the slow charging up top? you can charge longer if you take a good nap or meal, but else...let's go!
As the charging technology of electric cars improves, the gas powered car will become what the home phone became, and gas stations will become the pay phone booth. The cell phones of the 90s and even early 2000s used to take hours to charge as well, but they improved. Now, most of us don’t have a home phone. This technology is also similar to when television went from analog to digital and we were forced to adapt. EV’s are here to stay.
It’s a 25 minute stop on a road trip. You don’t fill it to 100%. 20-80% and back on the road. 3 hours of driving and I’m ready to stop again when nature calls, need to stretch, and get a drink or snack. It’s a 5 minute difference between this and a stop in an ICE vehicle.
Never mind that the biggest reason that "EV sales are down" is that the overwhelming drop in EV sales is from one manufacturer. Pretty much every other manufacturer has increased sales year-over-year. Also - <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="378">6:18</a> - with resale value... of course resale value for EV's are bad currently. But a huge chunk of that is because the newer generations of EV's are making significant jumps. I mean, the Taycan has bumped its range significantly in the past two years alone. ICE vehicles don't have that kind of progression in capabilities anymore. Rivian / Lucid are new manufacturers with no history, and Tesla doesn't have the same cachet as Porsche in terms of long-term quality.
@@TheCoolDave point is, the exact same can be said when ICE vehicles were first invented. It took the development of gas stations across the country to make it feasible for the car to work. A century and a half ago, gas was limited and very expensive. And grass for horses was cheap, and / or free. Now I expect charging infrastructure to expand over time, just like gas stations did. And charging speeds will improve as well. We are arguably still in the "Model T" era for the EV.
@@TheCoolDave I think now that the ranges are getting up to 400-500km (Canadian) it is reaching the tipping point of not being something to worry about now. The fact that the ranges and everything else has improved means that yes you don't have as many options to resell the car wen the tech has just gotten that much better. Mileage is one thing but when the new car can go 20% further and has 4 - 5 new features that are useful for everyday driving ... its a no brainer.
@@JDCheng But we're not, though. I have had this argument several times, EVs vs gasoline is NOT cars vs horses. Cars have definitive improvements over horses that allow for new kinds of uses, they travel much faster, they can pull a lot more, and they do precisely what you tell them to do without requiring a lifetime of training and reinforcement. EVs, however, are just cars that are potentially cheaper per mile but more expensive up front, with other significant trade offs, making them a purely economic efficiency question. There is no problem that EVs solve that gasoline engines have not already been solving for over a century. We also understand exactly the difficulty of building "charging infrastructure" is. It's essentially ripping up and replacing the electrical grid across the US, and installing expensive parts that are not particularly durable all over the country in places that cannot currently support them. Therefore, the true cost of EVs is the total cost of the difference in the installation and maintenance of such an electrical grid as can support the mass adoption of EVs, including all the additional parking space required at supercharger stations due to the increase in "refueling" time, against the currently existing gasoline and diesel refining, transportation, and distribution networks. This so hilariously advantages traditional gasoline engines it's almost not worth talking about.
@@brofist1959 "There is no problem EV's solve that gasoline engines have not been solving for over a century". Except for the one problem they have a hand in creating. Gasoline engines have had a huge hand in the levels of lead spread across the world. And in an era when we have been toppling weather records that have lasted centuries, why keep using the thing that's making such events worse? Besides, ongoing development of ICE efficiency has been relatively flat over the past few decades. Yet we are still on massive generation-on-generation increases in efficiencies for EV's. I mean, the original EV1 from the '90s barely had 60 miles of range for a two-seater. 20 years later, the Bolt was half the price, had twice the seats, delivered 3x the range, and charged in less than a tenth of the time (60 miles in the EV1 took 8 hours, while 100 miles in the Bolt can be gained via DCFC in 30 minutes). Compare that to a '96 Accord that got 25 mpg city/32 mpg highway to a '24 Accord 's 29/37. And I’d point out that it similarly took decades before gas powered cars fully supplanted the horse as the major form of transport. As for "tearing up infrastructure", I'd still point out that new destination charging will be much easier to install than new underground gas tanks. Tesla already uses the far ends of parking lots just for that purpose. And electricity is far less likely to contaminate local soil with toxic chemicals, while being far easier to transmit electricity in bulk than motor fuel - notable since most homeowners can charge their EV's at home, and never see a gas station for years. And don't discount the economic factor. We have another example - trains. Steam trains were ubiquitous, and by the late 1940's were some of the most powerful machines in the world. Diesel-electrics surpassed them, even though per-locomotive, they were far outclassed by steam in terms of pulling power. But, despite being much more expensive up-front, diesel electrics basically dominated the rails within 30 years, and the only remaining working steam locomotives exist for entertainment purposes. And even with trains, notice that the fastest ones in the world are now pure electric (TGV, Shinkansen). Yes, there are huge infrastructure costs, but not any worse than requiring refueling every hundred miles or so. Plus, as EV adoption improves, costs will drop and charging infrastructure will expand. Even now, used EV's are encroaching on price parity with similar age used ICE vehicles.
Another good video. As an EV owner, I will NEVER buy another ICE car. Having done two interstate road trips in our Mach-e, I do not miss stopping at gas stations. As for PHEV, they are (mostly) great. My son has a Toyota Prius Prime. I think he last got gas over a month ago. I wanted a PHEV for decades, but find them more challenging.
The issue with plugin hybrids are they are 90% ICE, 10% BEV. What I don't understand is why there are so few PHEVs that are <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="3050">50:50</a> or <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="1807">30:7</a>0 (like the BMW i3). But your example of the Cayenne owner shows that they are the perfect customer for a BEV. Short trips, home charging. My mum said what if I want to drive across Australia (Syd-Per). I asked when she last drove this route. 1972.
35 years old diesel Mercedes is apparently worth more then 2 years old electric Rivian <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="50">0:50</a> so yeah the video title might be right.
Exactly. Reminds me of the phrase James Carville coined back Clinton ran against George H. W. Bush: “It’s the economy, stupid!” When the economy slows and interest rates are headed up, lots of people stop buying expensive things - like cars. Especially expensive cars… and most EVs are still expensive.
@@jjay350 Yeah, my 8 year old commute car high mileage, is almost worth as much as it was new soon lol. Meanwhile we see a low mileage Tesla Model 3 go for less money than a 2019 mid mileage Ford Mondeo lol. I guess it means people are not ready for EV yet. Also since they removed the high tax on diesel here, diesel cars got very popular on the used market again.
I and everyone I know drive less than 30 miles a day 97% of the year. Home charging is just too powerful. Then low maintenance, smooth, powerful and all the rest of the advantages. I'll never have another gasoline vehicle. It's all about price.
bc PHEVs combine all negatives in 1 car: 1. due to slow DC charging home charging is a must 2. gas engine requires additional maintanence 3. compromised interior+cargo space 4. as pricey as BEVs
I'm sure they exist out there I did a quick search in my area, found a few for around $60-70K (under 20K miles the few I saw).... but, like a 2015-2018 model S performance, like under $20K.... lot of bang for the buck if it's got a good battery...
At <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="590">9:50</a> you’re right. Our benevolent government only wants EVs. Plug in hybrids make the most sense but our government is going to ram it down whether the market wants it or not.
Doug, EV owner here. You have some good points and I agree with all of them… except driving from California to Mass. in two and a half days… woof! One argument I hear often against EVs that I’m surprised you didn’t bring up is the average vehicle age on the road and how “EV batteries don’t last that long”. I think there’s misconceptions with how durable EV batteries are as well as the average vs. median age of vehicles on the road. I think those misconceptions will go away with time. It’s been widely reported that the average car on the road is 12+ years old in the US. I did some digging using ChatGPT and found that the average age is vastly different from the median vehicle age. There are approximately 286 million registered vehicles in the US and only 122 million are older than 12 years. If you count up the new vehicle sales every year you’ll find the median age of a vehicle on the road is around 9 years. I have various theories as to why this is, like the pandemic, the economy, etc., but I think that may get better when financing and sales return closer to pre-pandemic levels. But funnily enough, that’s close to the required battery warranties on EVs. 🤔 As for EV battery durability, there have been numerous studies on Tesla batteries and how long they can last. There’s a lot of evidence they last just as long, if not longer, than the critical components of an ICE car (engine, transmission, etc.). I think in the next few years we’ll see more data to suggest they last a long time and will give consumers confidence going forward. I also think we’ll see more and more local shops that are able to work on EVs as well as their batteries, like Electrified Garage. Happy to hear your thoughts!
I went from a 2023 Chevy Bolt (max speed 93 mph) to a 2023 Kia Niro (Max speed 160 mph). Wow, so much features too. Never going back to ICE. People gotta own an EV before they can judge. Most people can't afford an EV.
Chinese viewer here, would love to see Doug come to China to test some of the major electric cars( NIO, Li Auto, Zeekr) which completely solved the range problem either with battery swapping stations on the highway and cities, or super fast charging speed that can charge from 10% to 80% in 10mins. So it's the completely different story here gas compares to electric.
Doug, you are absolutely correct. The perception of a plug-in hybrid was that it was the worst of both worlds, but in reality it was actually the best of both worlds. The only reason I got a model S was because the RAV4 prime, which was a really ideal match was literally twice the cost of my 2017 model S.
I just hate the styling on the standard Ravs too. Give me the prime drivetrain in the adventure or the trd trim and i'd sell my '19 rav4 adventure for a phev adventure tomorrow.
It depends. PHEV's can be the best of both worlds if it was a Toyota or a BYD, it will be the worse of both worlds if it were a Mercedes, BMW or Audi. The se three german PHEV's were the cause of bad reliability perception of PHEV's
Yeah, but I'm sure Toyota, GM, and other large manufactures don't know what they're talking about when they say EVs are a disaster. The news tells me it's fine lol.
Doug, couple of counter points. One, by charging at home, even with a standard wall outlet, I never have to go to a ‘gas station’ again. That saves a lot of time, and makes up for any additional time I may spend charging on a road trip. 2. Very few people go on cross country road trips. When I take a long trip, I start with 380 miles of range, and I stop every 2 hours to stretch my legs, refresh, walk the dog, and get enough charge to do two more hours. Takes 20-30 minutes. You should be stopping anyway, to refresh, eat, bathroom break, etc. The charging experience is not as bad as you make it out to be.
Look at Australia who has no incentives. Yet constant GROWTH rate. Even though one state ALMOST started an EV Levy (tax). Your ASSUMPTION is built on ignorance.
Great video Doug, IMO the best point you made was at the end asking "Where are all the plug in hybrids?". In Canada my Rav4 Prime qualified for the federal rebate of $5000 off, our provincial rebate was taken away recently but i didn't care. i get to work and back on electric, rest of time i am driving around in a hybrid car and with the scarcity i can assure you i have one of the best resale vehicles period. 1-2 year old used models on dealer lots are selling for MSRP. My priorities are not the same as everyone else, but my largest is the RESALE. People just think about driving dynamics, looks, joy and i respect their choice to feel those are most important but you're not going to get resale with a Tesla.
I suspect that some potential buyers are now waiting for updated models which plug into the supercharger network without an adapter. The downside on plug-in hybrids is that you charge them to 100% every day, which kills the battery--mine had 29 miles range when new, 11 years later it's down to 8. A full electric you can charge to 80% a couple of times a week resulting in far less degradation of the battery.
PHEVs are also just expensive. They have basically every part of an EV; motor, high-voltage cables, inverter and a good-sized battery, but then also every part of an ICE - engine, driveshafts, exhaust, transmission. Batteries aren't that expensive any more, so you may as well chuck out all of the complex oily bits and put in more battery.
This is the very reason I don't charge mine to 100% everyday. I know what my driving will be like each day and depending on that, I will either let it continue to drain down, or charge it up to full again. I find I go from charging 7 days a week to charging more like 3-4 days per week, essentially extending the battery life 2x.
@@drunkenhobo8020 I hear how much battery prices have dropped, then you think BEVs should be much cheaper now, nope it's the opposite. I mean in the range of a old petrol Golf, that is what people need, no more.
Plug-in hybrids are such a good idea. I know a guy who has a plug-in with 60km range and a 20km commute. He basically never has to buy gas in day-to-day life, but he does have the backup of the ICE engine when needed for longer trips.
You’d have to be a fool to buy a used EV. The elephant hanging over your head is the battery replacement. No one wants a $20k battery replacement. This issue directly effects the people w/ the least money.
Meanwhile in Sweden, both Petrol and Diesel are at a record low, and electricity prices are up. I pay 3 times more for my electricity today than I did in 2021, and I consume LESS than I did back then. If you have a diesel you can even drive your car cheaper than charging at public chargers with your ev.
I think the market will adjust to gas and electric ending up at the same cost per mile. We’ve proven that $4ish gas is affordable. So the equivalent charging cost is to be expected.
3300 miles drive?? How many people in America actually do that? Why do you not fly? It can’t be more than 5% of journeys that travel that far. It’s such a moot point for that distance. I’d say 1000 miles is more common but still rare enough. 1000 miles would be 3 stops of about 45 mins each in an ev. To me the forced stop makes a lot of sense when it comes to safety.
As someone with kids, driving long distances is far more affordable for me, and it's not just the cost of the airline tickets. We have a lot more flexibility over our schedule and the kids get to see places all over the country. What the saying, the joy is in the journey?
Yeah I agree 100% if you’re not time constraint do the drive. Don’t worry it takes a bit longer. 10 hrs extra on a 3500 mile trip is not that bad. With an ev you’re not creating as much pollution and doing something positive for your kids future.
I do it at least once a year, often twice. I road trip up all the way up the East Coast and back during the fall to go off-grid camping. Granted, most people don't go off grid camping like I do, and most people don't road trip all the way up the East Coast and back, but they still want to road trip 500-600 miles or so every once in a while. Even if it's only once every 2 years, being able to make the drive should they need to is more important than whatever marginal efficiency gain they would get in daily life, unless they have a garage with room for 2 or more cars and the income to fill it.
Consumers on used to gas around $5 now. It’s been there before. If gas hits $10 in the highest priced locations, that’s when people will freak like they did in 2010. Truck prices will plummet and EV’s will go crazy.
@@AnarchyEnsues America doesn't actually buy oil from there, we buy oil from ourselves, Canada, and South America, and we have more than enough oil fields for us to tap in America for all of our fueling needs, if we so choose.
@@brofist1959 you actually buy 1/2 million barrels a day from saudi arabia, american oil is generally very light, and a lot of your refinery are geared for heavy crude, also your industry needs heavier crude to create plastics and roads and rubbers easier. just fyi, there is two major ways crude is graded, its weight "heavy or lite" and its sulphur content "sweet and sour" . sp due to economics, heavy crude is shipped to america, and american light crude is shipped else where. but still at the end of the day, americans will be paying the global price for oil, just like in the first oil crisis which was triggered by a war from Americas no1 allies in the region.
Just got a new Hyundai Ioniq 5. We did our research and were well aware of the lack of infrastructure. But we got a great deal installed a home station. We do less than 200 miles in a normal week. Did a 400 mile trip last weekend, planned route to hit one L3 fast charger spent maybe an extra 45 minutes on the total trip. Total cost to charge was around $28. When we do it in my Honda Ridgeline it would be around a tank of gas, $55.
Plug-in hybrids might sound like a good idea, but if you take everything in account, they aren't. Production is more complicated than a normal combustion engined car or a fully EV, so more CO2 produced. Protecting the environment? No. You drive around a very heavy car all the time. The mixed lower consumption doesn't compensate for the additional costs you'll have by buying such cars and maintaining them. Less costs for you? No. A lot of governments don't give aids for these plug-in Hybrids, because they are mostly used without ever being charged or only in some rare occasions.
They are amazing. My parents bought a RAV4 plug-in. It has 95km ~55miles of range on a full charge. They fill up 1-2gallons a month in their normal life because they charge it every day and it’s not a problem. This summer we drove to Croatia and it wasn’t a problem because it also has an efficient petrol engine
Mercedes E Class estate hybrid is available in Europe (I don't know about the US) has an electric range of 62 miles and a combined fuel consumption of 565 mpg - although there are some others that only have 470 mpg. That's not a typo, either 565 or 470 mpg depending on model.
I've noticed when some people have posted their EV road trips that a lot of the time it's less economical to use the supercharging network than it would be for my to drive my 1.4T VW Jetta manual that gets about 45mpg on the highway. I don't think it's worth ever getting an electric car unless you can charge at home.
I think EVs are still relatively niche and most everyone who really really wants one already has one. They still don’t make sense for a vast majority of the US. 🤷
I'm italian, last month, with heavy incentives that were available mainly for electric cars, EV sales topped at 3.5% of sales, while car sales remain low because of inflation. So I wouldn't say dead of course, but the EU idea of having EV only on sale in 10 years...
We all have to decarbonise somehow, like it or not. New EVs only is coming, and quite soon. All this discussion about the minor pros and cons is kind of irrelevant when you remember what our actual broader situation is.
I find it laughable that people are predicting the end of EVs when the market is so young and the affordable cars haven’t arrived yet. They’re coming along with solid state batteries with lifetime warranties and increased range. Sales of polluting ICE cars peaked in 2017 and have been declining ever since.
@@lukepatten8308 We’ll see, won’t we. BTW, the largest car market in the world is driving the energy transition at breakneck speed with >50% sales now battery electric.
Our Tesla Model 3 SR+ is perfect for us. We charge at home using a level 2 charger over 90% of the time. When we do road trips, we stop about every 3 ours or so for 15 minutes or 20 minutes on average to recharge. It generally takes us longer to grab a bite to eat, stretch our legs and take a bathroom break than it does to charge up the car so it really doesn't take us much longer to take a road trip in our Tesla than in our previous ICE car. As for resale value, I generally keep a car for a minimum of ten years, often longer so my cars are not worth much anyway when I get rid of them. I don't think I could go back to driving an ICE car
Basically: EVs work in Europe, South America and China but the US is just lazy building bad cars and not investing in charging… Sweden has a 50% EV share and buyers receive 0 incentives from the government…
The reality is that there is no innovative new battery technology in the market that is going to solve the range issue. The only way for OEM’s to meet the range demand is to stuff more cells into their packs. The sad part is that they aren’t even looking into gasoline range extenders because it will not look green to the public’s eye.
@overlandingworld True. Chemicaly seen, we've basically made the best batteries possible. There are slight increases in efficiency, here and there, but there won't be any sudden discoveries of batteries that are cheap, lightweight and carry comparable energy density as gasoline, diesel, LPG or kerosine.
No need for it, since it improves with each iteration. BMW I3 started with 20kwh and ended with 42kwh...DOUBLED IN 7Years only within the same space. The new A6 Etron/Q6, BMW neue Klasse,. Mercedes MMA, will be at 750km in 2025. The 150kwh from NIO can be already bought with 1000km Range...it is just a matter of time. It is slower than EV Fans are thinking and it will be faster than ICE Lovers estimate. There is no disruption, but a slow move within the next 20 to 30 Yesrs
@@josefv-y8m We are at the practical limit of lithium ion energy density. The only way to add more energy capacity now is to put more cells in the vehicle, which means you're just making the bill of materials bigger and increasing cost. There will be no new chemistry nor new kind of battery that will solve the problem. Solid state is never going to be a thing, Toyota has "had a working prototype" for the last 10-15 years, and they've "been 3-5 years out" for the last 20. They actually do exist, we understand entirely what the problems are, they're very expensive and they don't last very long, so they'll never take off. The only way around this problem is a holy grail battery material science innovation that is at the moment entirely unknown, which becomes less likely to happen with every passing day as it becomes more and more clear that we as a species already know just about everything there is to know about this subject given the materials and conditions present on Earth.
@@josefv-y8m This'll not keep on increasing. These gains go in ever smaller increments and will never come close to the energy density of gasoline/diesel.
I think they are looking into gasoline range extenders, but that makes the EV fire issue much worse because engine fires occur far more frequently than battery fires, but in a plug in hybrid an engine fire can easily start the batteries on fire, so that is not necessarily such a fantastic idea from a safety perspective.
i love how doug's garage is getting more and more as jay leno's! as almost a decade long fan i salute mister doug demuro!!!!!!! the coolest car enthusiast youtube ever had.
Unfortunately hybrids come with a host of unappealing compromises: Slow acceleration, often neither motor is designed for maximum power and you still have the lag of a gas engine as you wait for it to reach peak power. After the battery is depleted acceleration can be sluggish. Bad handling due to weight distribution and higher center of gravity. The exhaust, gas line, gas tank and sometimes transmission needs to run along the bottom of the car so the batteries have to be mounted higher which raises the center of gravity. Higher maintenance costs due to higher complexity and dual powertrains. Traction control, stability control work better when primarily controlled by an electric motor which can react to changing conditions more quickly. Regenerative braking can capture more power when it has a large battery to dump it into. Can't fast charge a phev because the battery is usually not large enough to take high power levels. Poor aerodynamics due to the need to cool the engine's waste heat. You still need a significant volume of air flowing through the radiator, engine bay and underneath(cooling the exhaust & catalytic converter). Less interior passenger space and/or cargo capacity. The engine will often run when it isn't really needed - to keep the fuel fresh, to heat the cabin in winter, at high speeds, for better acceleration, in cold temperatures, to keep gas from going stale. Still need to buy gas, get oil changes. A smaller hybrid battery is fully cycled more often which causes accelerated battery degradation compared to a large battery electric vehicle.
Plug-in Hybrids are the only logical choice for now IMO. Like you said. City drivers would basically 90% of the time just drive on battery EV style and keep it charged. But you never have to worry about range for a road trip etc. Because it can run on gas as long as needed. Then when opportune time to charge can do so. In fact the gas engine itself recharges the battery when in gas mode. So by the time you reach another city on your road trip the car can run in battery mode again. So vast majority of the cars would have cut emissions by 75% which is huge. But the ability to start car in cold climate and not worry about range or charge time is invaluable. It pisses me off how they just skipped this intermediary step and went to full EV right away when we don't have the infrastructure or electrical grid to handle it. It's asinine.
Aren't "city drivers" the same people who largely are unable to charge at home? A PHEV makes even less sense than a BEV in that situation, because you'd end up hardly ever running it on grid electricity.
The resale value is a reflection of the cars were way overpriced to begin with. My 2020 Kona Electric Ultimate listed for $45,000. I bought it used for $24,000 with 26,000 miles. It’s s great car but was never worth $45,000. So when ev’s are sold at a proper price new, the resale price will be ok. Also, yes you can drive from LA to Frisco. You stop at Kettleman City, recharge whike getting a burger at in n out. Yes, it’s getting more crowded but they keep adding more chargers. And expect more aggressive incentives from California and the federal government. And young folks coming up like tech. So I see ev sales to continue to increase until eventually they will be the dominant form of propulsion. Efficiency always wins in the end. It is obvious that the end is near for the explosions engines.
<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="575">9:35</a> Because with a standard hybrid, you get more or less the same benefits of a PHEV but never have to worry about the charging network. The bump in MPGs isn’t worth the added complexity to most people.
Doug forgot about one thing about us car enthusiasts… what about sound ? These microwaves don’t sound like anything What about big rumble v8’s Twin turbo 6? Just look at how depressing the new chargers and c63’s are 😂😂
My neighbor was afraid to purchase an EV for a smaller daily driver. Instead she purchased a PHEV with 24 miles of range. She hasn't put gas in it since the purchase in March. It has also been in the service department twice so far for electronic issues, both ICE related. I think she now realizes that an EV makes perfect sense for her.
If she is only using the PHEV electric, then she should think of the amount of charge cycles she is putting on the battery within a short time. 1000 cycles for the 24mile hybrid = 24.000 miles 1000 cycles for the EV = 300.000miles
@@brianpletcher8055 I know. He's actively spreading misinformation. We've done multiple 1500 mile road trips so far in the Tesla and average stop is about 15 minutes. Maybe 10 minutes for one, the. 20 min for the other when we want to eat. It's literally beeping at me that it's ready to go when I'm still in the bathroom
Plug in hybrids are not incentivised because they are not very environmentally friendly in real life use: 1 - They are heavy because they carry an internal combustion powertrain as well as an electric one. 2 -To produce them is not environmentally friendly for the same reason and 3 - studies have shown that in countries in which they are incentivised, people oftentimes buy them for the incentives but never charge them (ever) and drive on petrol all the time.
Yes, please, I would love the opinion of some random rich kid that has a car hobby on how the EV industry is going , not some engineer or technical professional. This holds weight!
I dont agree with plug In hybrids, they take long time to charge for like 10 miles and the gas range is crap. You get at max electric car type range. I owned a 5 series P-In and faced that challenge.
They are dying because automakers only make extremely expensive ones and no budgets ones, people don’t need massive electric tanks, they need small city cars that have decent range to also take you out of town sometimes, I’m talking as an European that sees the Dacia spring everywhere, they are selling like hot cakes
@Darx97 Not really. Think Nissan Leaf, Fiat 500e or Renault Zoe. These however, all are hampered by highly impractical, and frankly laughably short ranges.. Oh, and I Iive in Holland and I hardly see any Dacia Springs around? Maybe this is because it looks like any other characterless and shapeless SUV. 😂
You can sit here and say people need small city cars, but they don't sell. Compact EVs start NEW for around $30-32k. Most subcompacts were already discontinued in the US for poor sales. Used EVs have poor resale value and 1-2 year old compacts are selling for $20-25k. If you don't think this is budget pricing then you're out of touch.
@@GTfour01 ye those exist but like you say, the range leaves to be desired, ye I get that’s expensive for automakers to build cheap cars and that’s why they sell big expensive cars to get back some of the costs, hopefully soon the production lines will get cheaper and will allow them to build cheaper cars
After owning a Prius, I would have to say the best form of efficient transport is a hybrid system. A plug in hybrid makes no sense because add additional time to refuel a completely different system compared to a standard hybrid.
