Are gaming pens the future instead of mice? Drawing tablet to reach Immortal in Valorant ft. Kariyu 

ask him to uncapitalize osu in the description

Try using elgato pedal to shoot

@JARRAN2R ok done!

@Kariyu101 Appreciate the convo, was awesome, thanks again for the chat and the insight!

hey its the osu nerd

I think this is probably a limitation of Wacom’s technology because their pens don’t have a battery in them. The tablet sends electricity to the pen with a magnetic field and its not a lot of electricity. It’d be almost impossible to cram a small mechanical scrollwheel into the pen, and also the scrollwheel would have to be near where the buttons are because the bottom half of the pen is a charging coil that receives electricity from the tablet. The only viable way to make a scrollwheel work would be with an optical sensor, but those use a lot of electricity, which the pen probably can’t spare. They’ve have to switch to a battery and force users to charge their pens if they wanted to put a scroll wheel on it. Wacom probably thought about and tried to put a scrollwheel on the pen because they basically ended up putting a scrollwheel on the tablet itself, using a scrollwheel is so useful in art programs be it for zooming, rotating or changing brush size.

osu! community tried doing that a long time ago (back in 2016 when ctl490 got launched and had a ton of useful features for drawing that added huge input delay) iirc wacom didnt want to be associated with the gaming market, even though they were fine with people using their products for that

@@WARnTEA a thin capacitive touch pad could probably be low enough power and send scroll inputs from rubbing your finger on it

@@creaturedanaaaaa I'm doubtful. The actual touchpad might be low power, but you would need a MCU in the pen powerful enough to process those inputs. To give you an idea of how power limited wacom is, their most recent super expensive Cintiq adds a 3rd button onto the pen, but had to remove the eraser to do it, so the number of buttons remained the same they just changed the positioning of that button.

@@WARnTEAWhat about a small 2.4ghz circuit powered by LR44 batteries just for the scroll function? And make it optional. Like don't put a battery and scroll won't work but the rest will.

I feel you're on to something. Maybe have the sensor sit beneath the left click/index finger, instead of the middle of the palm/mouse.

yo this is smart

the only difference that would make is if you aim in an arc (moving your wrist) it would have more movement (and more variable height), would probably be harder to aim with at least at first. imagine trying to do a somewhat straight line with just wrist aim like that. the reason pen aiming is so intuitive is that we all write and know when you write where the line will be (as we've done it millions of times) and it's easier to manipulate a small tube because you can use all your fingers around it, not just on the top guiding it. by that logic since we all have used mice with the sensor roughly in the middle for years changing that location would probably do more harm than good

there are mice with sensors at the top and they feel like shit. Even just a bit off the center where you grip with your thumb feels off. Also i imagine itd be weird having the sensor off the y axis but of course i dont know for sure Edit: dont wanna come of as a toxic besserwisser, its a good idea :)

It actually wouldn’t improve anything because mouse aim is relative. It looks like we are moving in a straight line across the screen but in reality the mouse is pivoting around the wrist or elbow joint and rotating slightly. So since the entire mouse is pivoting in the exact same way it doesn’t matter where the sensor is on the mouse, the arc is the same. The only difference comes from changing Y axis positioning. However you can basically just think of Y axis position as a way to adjust wrist aim sensitivity. Being under your index finger really doesn’t matter because like I said your mouse movement is tied to your pivot point. The main difference is that a sensor position further away from the pivot point has a bigger arc and travels a further distance across the pad. This is why you can think of it as changing wrist aim sensitivity, because moving the sensor up only makes wrist aim harder to control. Sensor position doesn’t really effect arm aiming because the pivot point is so far away from the sensor the difference in arc sizes become almost unnoticeable, especially because you are limited by your mousepad size. You could do sort of a fingertip aim style that doesn’t rotate around a pivot point and doesn’t move the wrist but almost no one uses this method because its too restrictive. You wouldn’t be able to move the sensor far across the mousepad with this style, which will make it harder to be accurate as you would need to increase dpi to compensate for the lack of movement and at higher dpi, small movements are more noticeable. Even your heart beat might cause the cursor to move if your dpi is high enough. The idea of using the index finger to aim really isn’t a new idea. Thousands of people have had this same thought. If it actually was a viable way to aim it would exist by now. Also, smaller mouse is so pointless. Other than weight reasons, smaller mouse really doesn’t do anything. If anything larger mice are better because a larger surface area contact equals more friction/grip. With more grip its easier to prevent the mouse from falling out of alignment with the pivot point. The one any only good improvement RJN made on his mouse were the rails. The rails increase surface area, but beyond that they allow the fingertips to help the wrist pivot. The wrist going side to side isn’t a particularly accurate movement, idk if you noticed but the wrist pivots so much more to the right than it does to the left. With the rails the fingertips can aid in smoothening out that movement and making small microadjustments because the fingers have a small amount of range that they can also pivot that is separate from the wrist movement. The sad thing is that the success of Zy’s rails has made him into a fanatic about small mice and low button clicks. He thinks those two things contribute to why his mouse provides a better aim than the competition, but in reality its the rails that do all the work. Its pretty easy to test these things too, just stack a bunch of tape on the side of the mouse or on the triggers and you won’t find a noticeable difference the further away from the sensor you get.

🤓🤓🤓

Idk, thats how every osu player would describe the distinction between absolute input on 2d osu and relative input on 3d games

Yeah no. Kariyu did not come off as a smart guy at all. Knowledgeable about this particular subject but a far cry from intelligent.

@@testtube173 "A far cry from intelligent" You based that off one video? Make it make sense, you're just contraddicting yourself at this point.

Tell me you are below 18 without telling me. @@Iuffycs

Yeah he really is, just has that natural curiosity of how to improve and enjoys the journey of figuring things out, isn't afraid to be bad while he tries new things. Great attitude, not to mention the awesome skills he's developed from all the practice across multiple games. Looking forward to seeing what he gets up to in the future!

You can set at least the CTL472 to 500hz on opentablet driver. I haven’t tried 1000 extensively but I think that works too.

@@kiyu_u6009 Oh that's really cool. Do you know if that's actually 500hz, or if it's doing any sort of smoothing?

Polling rate is largely irrelevant to a tablet when using it normally because they check for the pens position constantly in tablet mode. That's why they don't have a reason to increase it. The CTL472 has a polling rate of a 133Hz. It will not send data any faster no matter what the software says lol

​@@drahsid2they're talking about interpolating, yes

@@Jordan-rNvgQ I mainly play OW2 with a bit of CS2 mixed in as well as SF6 and GGS. I loved +R but it got a little too difficult for my stupid fingers to keep up. I've actually wanted to just stick with one over the other just to see if I can get better, but it's hard to pull away completely. Cheers!

What's a leverless controller are you talking about those fight boxes

@@matthewskullblood9778 Yea, there are some that have specific names like the Hit Box, but I think that's a brand.

And done in such a way that doesn't "push" the pen when clicked/used, that was the major issue that he showed. I wonder about this with mice too, like I never bind my side buttons to something I would use while aiming because of the slight movement you get, not to mention repositioning your thumb/grip. Downward force seems to be fine on mice, doesn't effect aim with mouse1 and mouse2, so can we use a downward force button with a pen? I think if we do get gaming tablets, they won't actually be traditionally shaped pens because of the button problem.

@@RocketJumpNinja "I never bind my side buttons to something I would use while aiming because of the slight movement" ---you usually have to wait a second for the weapon to switch, by which time your x-hair is back on the target. I don't think I've ever found it to be the culprit for missing a shot, but you never know "they won't actually be traditionally shaped pens because of the button problem." ---The hypothetical mouse we're talking about might have an L shape, where the foot of the L is in contact with the desk/pad (which is also where your grip is), so the longer part of the L, you can engage the pinky and ring fingers. Maybe get a scroll wheel on there for the ring finger, and a button for the pinky.

The razer tartarus has a scroll wheel.

​@RocketJumpNinja that's interesting. I'm a high level Xonotic player and I bind thumb 1 to secondary fire, thumb 2 to zoom, and right click to jump. It hasn't negatively affected me really. Although it would be interesting to try a foot pedal for zoom or use my left hand for some of those things..but my left hand is already too busy with WASD, Grapple and crouch.

just bind scroll wheel down and up to keyboard keys with autohotkey and adjust the scrolling speed in windows. For ads you can use hold on on the front side pen button and for shoot you press the tip on the pad.

Edit: Ok Kariyu is right handed, never mind hah That said, Rafael Nadal is right handed but coach told him to play left handed apparently, to upset his opponents, and look at his success. It can be done!

same as me mumsy really, she writes with left but usually used a right handed mouse (although my M42 could change that for her)

SAME

I am right handed but use mice on my left 😄

​@@RocketJumpNinjaNadal is a genetic freak of nature. The top 1% might be able to do it but the rest of us are plebs

Ey, appreciate the support all these years, thanks for sticking around! Yeah the mouse companies did the work, all I did was offer a "Quake veteran's" guiding voice, which was supported by you guys. If you all didn't watch my channel, the companies would never have listened to me. I also took advice from the community to the companies, so I acted as a bit of a mediator too. But you're right, if we didn't form this community and make the requests to the companies, we'd still be getting: - Heavy mice - Unsafe / over-designed shapes - Terrible jittery laser sensors that would then use angle snapping and smoothing to fix it - High latency/debounce - Rubber cables (thanks to paracords for leading the way there) - Wired mice (wasn't long ago people were still afraid of wireless, we converted them!) And a bunch of other stuff, but they're the main ones off the top of my head. So yeah it's been quite a journey, definitely cool to see how far we've come as a community/industry!

I think part of the reason why is that you can compensate for CS’s fixed aim pattern even more precisely than with a mouse if you use a drawing tablet. You’re literally just drawing the AK spray pattern when you are trying to compensate for it.

​@@Skiptrac3You're also just drawing it with a mouse too? Just with a mouse lol. You could say you can draw it more precisely with a pen, if you're used to using a drawing tablet. But that's not always the case either

@@TunaIRL Yeah but drawing any intricate shape with a mouse is pretty much a torture. This is why art/digitiser tablets were invented pretty much.

@@SianaGearz Yes obviously, and that's why I too said it's more precise. But you're also drawing the pattern with the mouse. A tablet if you're not used to one is not going to be better instantly either. It requires practice to get used to the eye hand coordination. It's a much different experience to not look at what your hand is doing and instead look at the screen so the experience is never "just drawing" in that sense anyway. I just find it funny when people say that "you can just draw the recoil". Duh, that's how you've always been controlling recoil. You can potentially draw it more precisely with a tablet though.

@@TunaIRL I have been using tablets for longer than most people here have been alive, having dumpster dove myself an RS232 Wacom PenPartner CT-0405 (light grey-beige) in the late 90s. Some things absolutely do work better from the first moment, you can do a shape of any letter, any simple squiggle, on a tablet much better than on a mouse. Larger scale movements do present an issue, particularly with angle orientation. Hand eye coordination training is advised where you get yourself a grid and then circle every intersection. It takes a couple weeks to become comfortable with indirect drawing like this. But basic tasks like software control mostly don't pose issues from day 1 either, since mouse based office/productivity software actually avoids being too demanding. Like once you start dragging a control, you don't just slip off if you veer off.

add scroll wheel to the keyboard instead and viola problem solved XD, I have a weird ass keyboard with scroll whell and 6 reachable tumb button with an extra pinky button, so I can just spam everything in my keyboard XD

Macro software could fix this but unlikely they will release said update.

For sure, have you tried to get used to fingertip or claw grip before? I was palm grip on DeathAdder for years until realizing I played better before, later figured it was because I was using smaller mice ... which then forced me into fingertip grip, and of course aim has never been better. Worth a shot if you haven't already, let me know how you go!

@@RocketJumpNinja It depends on the game. I use different grips for different purposes/games, and have experimented with lots of grips and mice. CS 1.6 was my main game and most of the movement is lateral, so I used palm. I suspect that claw/fingertip might be more popular for games like quake where there's much more vertical mouse movement. The more contact points your hand has with the mouse, the more control you have over it.

I agree. The more you dive into how mouse sensors work, it becomes more obvious why this is a bad idea. Tech that might actually be beneficial for improving aim might be putting a small touchpad on the trigger. The touchpad could be locked to absolute positioning like a tablet and just be sensitive enough to move the crosshair across 5 pixels on screen. So you’d basically be able to aim in a 5x5 25pixel grid with just your fingertips rocking side to side/up and down. Maybe this could improve long range precision, but also maybe it doesn’t. It also would be a pain in the dick to calibrate unless game devs adopt the feature and include an adjustment setting in their game. The problem is that changing dpi or sensitivity would massively change the number of pixels moved when using the touchpad so you would have to manually turn down/up the sensitivity of the touchpad everytime you changed ingame sens. The one good benefit of this type of system if it became standard would be that the trigger’s touchpad could be used as a scrollwheel in other programs instead of needing a physical scrollwheel. Kind of like how the scroll works on a magic mouse.

You'd also have to be super relaxed with the pen to not cause strain on your wrist. I tried using my tablet for CS and valorant for a few hours yesterday and having to tense my hand a lot more compared to drawing because of the ultra precise movements you have to make caused my wrist to start hurting quite fast. It could probably cause even more wrist problems in people than mice do already.

It will be so easy to aim that it will ruin everything. Don't remove difficulty or there is no point in doing it.

@@c0smoslive391 tf? It's not removing the difficulty, just making it more natural.

Did you not realized you described a touchpad...

@fran2911 Yes, but you need it to recognise only one finger as the input as you'll have your whole hand on the pad. This could be achieved by having say a small ptfe moulde on your finger the size of an eye contact lense with something added to the material so the pad can diffrenciate it from the other fingers.

@@CodyG_95 Palm rejection is a thing, you can simple just take the input from the first finger that lands on the touchpad, I don’t see how a touchpad is better than a pen, also to consider you’re adding drag to the equation

There's a guy that plays FPS games with a flute

@@fran2911 That's pretty funny. I think there is someone playing everything with Dance Dance Revolution controller as well. In fact i used to be such a person i finished all stories of Dead or Alive 2 on a DDR mat back in early 2000s. But i didn't have a lot of other games i'd be willing to do that with, well ones which weren't rhythm games.

Wouldn't it be the same. As you use shoulder and elbow joints for longer strokes and wrist for micro-adjustments. Would be interresting to try out a tablet in some games. Especially for people used to drawing.

yeah the whole time I was like a Tartarus/orbweaver with a pen would solve all that. I just prefer it since witha keyboard your thumb, your most useful digit is barely doing anything

Tartarus LIKE GD?

Good luck with all the filters, sounded intense hah

This. Capacitive touch might be the solution to gaming pens. That includes the scrollwheel.

@@GadgetActivated I truly believe it to be the best solution because of the fact it has no physical click so the pen technically shouldn’t move.