Working as a mechanic for 11 years on many high performance cars and vintage race cars we installed and serviced a lot of flexible stainless brake lines. We installed top brands like Spiegler and Earl's. Many of these brake line installations failed within just a few months. Flexible ends or not, this hardware is not really suitable for everyday street use. There is simply more flex at the line ends than the lines can handle, and the hose ends up splitting close to the end fitting. It is even a problem for race cars. The rubber hoses can tolerate a lot more flex cycles than the stainless hose.
Interesting. I also work for a high-end repair facility(20+ yrs) but have no experience the brands that you mentioned. I currently have StopTech lines on my Honda and Techna-Fit lines on my daughter's Nissan. Both have DOT approved fittings and have shown no signs of flexing failure. I sold my previous Volvo 240 with IPD lines that endured over 12 years/200k miles. Correct routing is essential and the technician was meticulous during those installs. I would tend to think that any SS braided brake hose that encounters more stress than it's rubber counterpart would be due to a poorly designed/built hose and/or improper routing during installation.
He's smart. Forums where some holy wars are waged debate this sort of "fine print". By giving you those hot links, you can easily copy & paste that into a forum to support an argument/claim, and he gets additional views. Win win.
I put Stainless Steel brake lines on my motorcycle. I simply did it because I found the braking "Feel" to be much better. Very firm levers after installed. Of course part of this could be the fact that I installed new fluid and made sure they were bled to perfection. Nevertheless, they were red. I like red.
Regular maintenance is probably a better investment on such a light vehicle. How often are rubber brake lines supposed to be changed on a bike, and who really does it to that schedule?
I used to do the stainless thing. Then I found that it's really hard to tell the difference between stainless and _new_ rubber lines - but most people are comparing them to the old, worn-out rubber lines that they're replacing. if you're a professional (with a like skill set) or if you're driving off-road a lot, I can see the point. But for spirited driving or the occasional track day - probably not worth the expense.
@@aussiebloke609 I absolutely agree with your on this point, I got my WRX braided brake line replace on my new WRX after 3500kms, same brake fluid, same pads and rotors, nothing firmer or better brake feedback compare to OE new rubber line, only find it change better by investing a bigger rotor, pads and calipers.
I put stainless steel braided brake lines on my motorcycle years ago and I couldn’t believe how much better the braking feel was. I did the same to my car and not much difference. I took the steel braided lines off and put new rubber lines on.
One reason why many people see an improvement in brake pedal feel after upgrading is because they're replacing 15+ year old rubber hoses with brand new lines. They would've felt a difference too with new rubber hoses
Same goes with people talking down on "rubber bushings"..and wanting to put polyurethane bushings in their street car..and saying "those rubber bushings are crap compared to the nice colored poly bushes".They are comparing an old worn out part to a new "upgraded" part...and that automatically means that the original part is "crap."....man.....gotta love the 98percenters ;)
I replaced originally with new rubber lines. My peddle feel was still mushy. So I replaced the master cylinder, still mushy. Found a deal on stoptek steel braided lines. (Cost was similar to the rubber lines.) So I picked them up, replaced the front lines. Still mushy, replaced the rears then, no mushy feeling. All new fluid, I replace every year to year and a half, mostly because I want a regular change so I never forget.
I installed ss brake lines on my car just in the front. The brake pedal feel isnt really any different but the braking response is more immediate and responsive
fuckinlowdowndrummer deffinetly not true ..if u track ur car or even street race doing digs.upgrading the bushing is a must to prevent flex.another important part is if ur start making lower and the motor flex u will have shifting issue.these are things that I personally have been through
One thing I didn't see mentioned also is stainless steel brake lines are also abrasive. Instead of rubber there's a PTFE line in there surrounded by a plastic cover to help prevent the stainless steel sheath from cutting into the line. Add in some road grit and tens of thousands of turns and flexing of the line inside the stainless steel sheath the brake lines are now a limited lifetime wear item. As it's life rubbing a piece of steel wool over the plastic protective cover every time you turn the steering wheel.
In my opinion... The main reason is general brake feel, not necessarily during track conditions or from heat of the fluid expanding. The benefits are felt EVERY SINGLE TIME you press the brake pedal, at any speed. The oem rubber lines dont hold the 100's of psi (during even a regular brake application) without deforming slightly, which is felt in pedal feel. However, many cars have very soft cast brake calipers , that flex significantly as well. If you have basic cast calipers (or non-perfomance street pads with low initial bite), you will still have a spongy pedal feel even with the stainless steel lines, so just save your money. I agree on the downsides, however.
SS brake lines also benefit if you do any type of backroad or canyon driving. Fluids don't have to reach boiling point for you to feel the benefit of SS lines.
i use to track my z1000 on oe rubber hose the dual 4 pot tokico works a treat but after a few laps they start to get smoshier not much but the lever seem to go in deeper then when you first start after i replace to earls racing steel lines the braking pefromacne stays consistant troughtout the session for road i say the difference its unlikly to be noticable but when your fluid are hot from constant full braking corner after corner the rubber hose will degrade your performance as the laps piles up but if im honest on the road you barely feel the difference maybe abit of feel but definitly wont shorten your emergency braking distance to be honest
There is another reason for stainless steel brake lines, and that is feel. Knowing what is happening at the pad is another piece of telemetry that I appreciate. You don't need it on the street, but I have them for the feel. Just because you technically don't need them on a street car, doesn't mean you shouldn't use them. If your car is your love and you don't track it, there are better places to spend your money. Its just this guy's opinion from a practical perspective.
I honestly want to know what can be done with that little thing. The driving ergonomics with the manual are surprisingly decent for such as small and cheap car. I'm sure it's not beating Civic Type R, ever, but...
I'm looking into replacing mine on my daily driver. I live in Los Angeles. Believe it or not, I do feel brake fade in the hot summer weather on the rapid stop and go traffic. After replacing yours, can you tell me how the braking feels? Are your brakes wearing faster? What vehicle do you drive?
I live in LA too, I drive a 2001 toyota celica gt. After installing the lines the brake pedal feels very firm when breaking, however this does not translate to stoping power, and the ABS does seem to kick in faster, also the pads also wear faster. I would say that if you do not take your car the track just stick to the OEM lines and just upgrade you pads to cermic ones.
These are the type of informative videos that are needed. No BS laughing acceleration videos, no widebody/bag everything, no junk half ass install ebay videos.Just some good informative videos that teach you what (and maybe safe you money like this video) modification does and the benefits and importantly the draw backs are.This channel should be held in high regards in the automotive youtube channels. Keep up the damn good work!
Thanks for this. I was considering putting some braided lines on while doing the brake pads, but I think I'll just use some new rubber lines, since the ones on there now are about 12-13 years old. I don't do serious track driving, because I don't really have the spare time or money to get into it. Fundamentally, even though I do like to go fast, it's still just street driving.
Very informative, really looking forward to this "fine print" line of videos, glad to see you trying new things with the channel. It's turning into one of my favorite car related RU-vid destinations.
I love my goodridge ss lines. the feel is amazing and adds to performance just because of that. It is very vaulable on the street imo. THe brakes are the most important thing on a car. I will have them on all my cars.
Not alot of people really talk about these braided plastic lines wear out very quickly, leak, and come apart at the terminations after all those expansion and contractions wear out the plastic at the termination joints, yes what they call stainless braided lines are basically a plastic like material line, many have had lines severed at the terminations, good for track and feel, doesn't last on the street, these braided lines are dangerous on the street , even if you inspect them you never know when they will shear off at the terminations, rubber hoses are much much more forgiving aka flexible and last basically the life of the car, if only someone came out with super high quality hybrid brake lines without the shearing issues at the terminations.
New segment type is really cool. Loved watching you hold back a smirk when you say the tagline at the end! Keep them coming. This wasn't news to me but I'm sure plenty will have some helpful info, can't wait to see more.
I'm glad someone is making videos like this with so much misinformation on the internet. I myself have all this stuff too, but like said in the video just know what you are getting yourself into. more maintenance and checking.
Savagegeese has videos just about everyday???? I can die a happy man now. Dude, good work on all of your videos, and the shoppe is sweet. Hurry up and get Scott back on the videos so that my life can be complete.
I found a good alternative to the Endless brake lines for the s2k. In my search to figure out if the endless lines would fit my 06+ ap2, I came upon spiegler. They are a well known, moto brake line manufacturer. Their lines swivel; they are DOT approved; and they are produced in Europe, but assembled in the USA.
+ayowser01 yeah speigler is amazing. You can buy or have lines custom made by endless by just contacting the company directly and it's about half the cost of buying it through any other place like evasive Motorsports Etc.
I agree with Charles Rockwell the only brake line failures I have had are on competition cars with stainless lines. I think the reason lots of people think that their brakes are better after fitting stainless lines is because they have changed the brake fluid and bled the system. I discussed this at length with an engineer from Girling and he would never use stainless lines on a road car. I would however consider fitting nylon coil rubber brake line protectors especially if you drive on unsurfaced or poor roads.
Don't feel bad, the SS lines will give you much better pedal feel because there's no expansion on the lines from the hydraulic pressure. Its worth it, nothing scary about it. These lines are used in the racing world where they're tortured, they wont fall apart at the fittings.
Yamaha recommends replacing motorcycle brake lines (and rebuilding the calipers) every few years. The makers of SS braided lines claim that their products will last the life of the vehicle. In addition, the OEM lines on ABS-equipped machines tend to have a lot of hard steel tubing so the amount of rubber hose is much less and the benefit of aftermarket braided lines (without these sections of hard tubing) is also reduced. I also have concerns that the OEM ABS system is tuned for the dynamic response of rubber hoses and might not perform as designed with braided lines. I wish someone competent would do a video on this application. Too many questions...
Dynamic response? That's where you went wrong. Rubber hoses have a delay believe it or not hence the ABS SYSTEM ASSISTING YOU IN BRAKING BECAUSE IT KNOWS "MY BRAKE LINES CAN'T TAKE THAT PRESSURE SO FAST, SO I'LL HELP PUSH IT"
Just subscribed. I watched two of your vids and I must say the channel is excellent with great commentary that includes unbiased impressions and useful technical details.
The stainless lines can make a huge difference. If you have a mushy feel, it's a great upgrade. If you don't have a mushy feel, but get brake fade then just get pads and fluid. Aftermarket master cylinders is where the shit is at!
Agreed. I have two of the same car, one with the stainless lines (among other things), and one without. The difference is obvious even on the commute. It's good information, though, especially since indeed my first set leaked almost immediately, likely do to installation error (had a shop do it). That said, the replacement set has been going strong for six years now.
I've installed SS braided brake hoses on several my family's daily drivers. They get inspected @ every OCI, never had an issue. IMO, An emergency avoidance maneuver on public roads can warrant the same braking confidence that's relied on @ the track.
He described heat buildup in the fluid from repetitive hard breaking as the reason why stainless brake lines will hold their shape better in that hot condition. Built up heat wouldn't apply to a one-time emergency maneuver.
@@lawpenner While I won't doubt that brake fluid temps are consistently higher under track conditions, some moderately spirited driving on the hilly, winding roads of eastern PA can easily stress even the best DOT4 fluids, albeit @ shorter durations.
@@GspeedR love those winding roads on the hills of Pennsylvania. ...Except when I got hit by fog suddenly in the middle of the night, went off the road and ramped off a dirt pile launching my car 4 feet off the ground, then nose diving into the ground and jacking my alignment/suspension. Good memories
Hot brake fluid isn't expanding the rubber line, it's the pressure the master cylinder is generating to stop the car. If the fluid expands due to heat, it is equalized throughout the system every time you let off the brake pedal. If the fluid gets so hot it boils, no hose construction can help you there. The stainless braid simply constricts the pliable inner hose(often teflon) to prevent it from expanding under normal, everyday braking. Motorcyclists put them on all the time to get a firmer brake lever feel.
+horus909 Its a combination effect of pressure and heat expansion. A brake line with 100F fluid and 1800psi will expand less than a brake line with brake fluid at 550F at 1800psi. The older the rubber lines the more expansion is noticeable. Which translates into some pedal feel difference, but unlike motor cycles its less noticable in street cars.
I didn't like the way this guy started slow with a lot of words and wide spaces between them at the first glance, but it it's got all perfectly aligned with the actual information the video was claimed to deliver. I was very pleased to see all of my qustion answered exactly the way they should have been. Good job!
this channel is absolutely amazing, he's very knowledgeable and in biased in his reviews and information. He deserves way more subs. I don't know anything about cars but his channel makes me want to learn as much as I can! hopefully all from him!
you dont know how long ive waited for this exact video!!! I am rebuilding my 1950 Cadillac and I really was confused on the benefit of steel brake lines !!
I don't know if you had to redo several takes from forgetting your words or needing to explain something better, but you are incredibly eloquent for the amount of time you spend talking without cutting a shot.
Dude. Dude. Keep this shit up. New shop, new equipment, new everything, you're knocking it out of the park. There is a reason why your subscribers love your content. Also glad it moved you guys out of Mark's shop :) He told me about your guy's channel the last time I was in there for service.
Just ensure you get DOT approved ss lines, issue solved. I've been running ss lines on all my cars since 2001 and never had an issue. The benefits out weigh the VERY small potential for something to go wrong, as long you installed them correctly that is. Also use Motul 600, best price to performance fluid out there, and use a pressure bleeder to properly get any air out and flush all the old fluid out.
Motul 600 is terrible for a daily driver. This might not happen as quick as I am in florida and its 130% humid, but after changing my ATE200 out for motul for a weekend on the tail of the dragon, I decided to leave it in as it was doing a great job, in less than 2 months is filled with water and shit because it has horrible hydrophobic properties. Motul is made for trackdays, not daily driving.
NiL Nine, never had that issue before. I always to do a full reservoir and line flush every 2 years and inspect my seals. You probly have a bad reservoir cap or grommet at the reservoir/master cylinder. These components aren't under pressure and could allow moist air in. A good sealed brake system shouldn't absorb water like that, over time and I mean a long time, sure, but not within months. I've tried to find data on your claim of motul having a higher hydroscopic rate over other fluids, but can not find anything. In any case, motul 600 still has a higher wet boiling point that standard dot 4 fluid, so you should be fine regardless. If you're experiencing vapor lock or other heat soak related issues I highly suggest that you do a major overhaul on the entire system because something isn't right.
Great start to the series and much appreciated. I can attest to the benefits of stainless steel brake lines on the track, but they do feel like overkill on the street unless your security depends on limit braking.
This is great information. Please keep doing these. I'd like to hear about the practical applications of all the common mods, intake, exhaust, springs etc
100% agree with you 👍🏾 only thing i could add as it relates to liability is the shock load stress then the abs module activities hammering brake system through fluid during its operation.. rubber lines act like accumulators reducing the shock load as the pressure spikes then module pulsates
I always phantasized about if efficiency wasn't a concern in this world, if cars could be made with no rust tendency whatsoever, made for life, and so when I got my racing brake I picked steel brake lines and when they asked me whether the fittings should be anodized aluminum or the slightly heavier and more expensive stainless steel, I didn't even have to think. I also once mounted a header shield and an exhaust system with V4A-80 screws, kind of in protest of seeing mounting parts in extremely rust-prone parts rusting into Swiss cheese themselves. (I do not know whether that material's heat expansion and electrochemical characteristics are fine, though.)
In 2013 I did z1 motorsports ss brake and clutch lines on my ‘06 350Z. I thought it was a tremendous upgrade. Brakes and clutch really firmed up and felt strong. Put them on my ‘15 Titan in 2018 and had the same experience: nice and firm brakes.
Fair enough explanations. I just have installed them on my type R and I feel not 100% sure about safety. Kinda regret that I have get in to it. Rubber ones would be good enough.
Line expansion sucks. You guys have no idea unless you brake hard at near the limits. On the highway when racing, you want as much stopping power as possible. This way you can type here after racing hard on the streets like you didn't race at all.
Nope you will be stopping sooner with old cars Put them on a non-abs car More feel = more balls to smash them harder = stopping earlier You WILL notice on the streets when you get in a situation you have to slam the brakes
All your videos are very informative and helpful to me personally and Im sure to everyone else as well. I have decided not to go with SS lines for my S2000 after watching this video. Thank you always!
In my country, weather is hot thru out the year. We can feel the expansion of the rubber easily. 2ndly, if absorber leaks oil, it causes the rubber line to expand or harden quickly too. So I prefer steel braided.
I understand where you are coming from with the turning and flex of the brake lines. On a track, as long as you are driving close to the race line, you are only using about 10% of the car's actual turning radius, thus these steel lines are not flexed or stressed like they would be with daily driving. So the car would rarely pull the steel brake line away from its original routing. However, daily driving, which has a lot of tight turns at street corners or during parking, need a flexible brake line that won't fight those tight turns.
Auto manufacturers don't use stainless steel brake lines because they are more expensive. You can just as easily install rubber brake lines incorrectly as well.
over 200,000 Highway, City and back road miles on my Russell stainless lines, I have replaced my suspension down to the bushings 3 times, and plenty of other things, but have never had to replace the brake lines, get a good quality set and they will out last rubber lines many times over, as for them getting torn up from hitting something I've seen plenty of rubber lines get ripped and although theoretically the stainless lines can be damaged I have never seen one get taken out by debris
Any improvement in pedal feel, firmness, is more due to the performance lines inner construction, than due to the actual stainless braiding. Typical inner hose liner for braided lines is teflon, and that is what adds firmness over some stock lines. The braiding itself is there more for protection against external abrasion, like mentioned in video. BTW, its super important that braiding is covered by an external plastic coating, to prevent debris from getting into the mesh, which would then abraid the soft hose with each flex, quickly destroying the hose. Some high performance cars come stock with teflon inner hose liner, even though exterior is still rubber. This is why some claim braided hoses made a huge improvement, some say none at all. If cars stock hoses were rubber inner liner, huge improvement. If cars stock inner liner already teflon, no real improvement.
wonder how much of an upgrade it'd be if one were to get these oem teflon-lined rubber hoses and fit them onto another vehicle, assuming the lengths and fittings were the same.
I kept my rubber brake lines but replaced the hard lines with stainless. Steel / zinc lines don't last very long in my location next to the Pacific Ocean. Copper nickle are better than steel, but for rust and corrosion prevention I think stainless hard lines should be better than copper nickle. My Steel / Zinc hard lines rusted so bad enough that both the hard lines and fittings needed to be cut off with cutters or a torch. If you're in a rust belt, go onto the ocean beach frequently, near salt water etc. I think stainless hard lines and fittings will last longer
Thanks, your video pop up right on time. I’m rebuilding a beat up Car and thought of replacing the brake line with ss type. So helpful in deciding to go for it or not.. cheers!
I fitted hell stainless lines to my old saab convertible, not only did the help the pedal feel,they looked great aswell,mine were blue to match the car.
The point of stainless steel lines is to improve the feel of the brake pedal. Less mushiness. Basically what you said, but the lines don't always need to be hot to feel the difference.
