Are The Mario RPGs Canon? 

I’ve always taken the simplicity of Mario at face value. Different stories different worlds different rules but all still Mario.

Honestly, I didn’t think it was that confusing initially, but now I’m even *less* confused by it. 1. Penguin Man writes his Mario biography 2. It gets published somewhere between Paper Mario and Paper Jam 3. Magic brings this stylized version of Mario to life to fight alongside modern Mario Imagine if, at the later half of Picasso’s life, one of his earlier self-portraits was magicked into reality and helped him fight the demon of lung congestion. Because of the style he was depicted in, the portrait would likely be able to do weird, kooky shit with his body. Plus, as was said, the Paper Mario games are centered around a story book art style. One doesn’t look at that self portrait and think that this was what Picasso *really* looked like. The Paper Artstyle and the abilities given to Mario thereof might have been visual allegory by the writer penguin, anyway.

I imagine there are at least three universes in Mario. 1: The Main Universe, including RPG, Thousand Year Door, and Super Paper Mario. 2: The Paperverse, beginning with Sticker Star and onwards, tieing into the crossover. 3: And the Doctorverse

I like to think the Mario & Luigi series is the same universe as the Mario franchise, while the Paper Mario series takes place in a separately universe from the Mario series.

If I have to guess about the thing about paper jam, it's that the paper Mario is the paper Mario that was introduced in the paper Mario games after Super Paper Mario (basically what Sonic Forces did to classic Sonic), making Mario on the new paper Mario (Sticker Star,Color Splash, and Origami King) a different Mario, while the original trilogy (64, Thousand Year Door, and Super Paper Mario) is the same Mario.

I think at some point in the real Mario world Mario went on adventures that were basically identical to Paper Mario 1 and TTYD just minus the paper elements. During these adventures he met Herrignton who wrote the magical book that became "Paper Mario." Then the events of Paper Jam happen and the story within the book is no longer bound to mimick the real world and thus becomes way more "papery" with the "real world" objects within the later paper games being pulled from Mario Primes world. The block from Paper Mario in SS could've been pulled from the story book by someone who knew about it before the Mario cast did.

3:53 "just like Mikey Mouse" what an odd example, because Disney definitely treats Mickey Mouse as like an "actor" a lot. there's often quite a bit of separation between "Mickey Mouse" in his normal "real life" settings and _"Mickey Mouse"_ portraying a character.

My headcanon is that the paper mario games events do happen in the main universe but we only experience them in the story book versions of those events

If you want to take it a step further, Gulliver from the Animal Crossing series makes mention of traveling to locations in both the mainline Mario games, and locations in the Paper Mario games, and animal crossing characters show up in Mario Kart

The thing to note about Wario & Waluigi is that in Japan, Waluigi was never called Wario's brother. That was only a thing in the west. So in the official canon he has never been related. The creator of Waluigi has stated that they're not even friends, which is backed up by a few things in the games as well.

I think Mario & Luigi mario is real because geno is in the arcade game, and geno might be a popular character in his world because gaz has a geno doll. And Mario fought alongside the geno doll gaz had. (Assuming smrpg mario is m&l mario) Paper mario is a story in his world, too.

I actually have an interesting theory regarding the Mario & Luigi series being canon to the mainline series. I believe that both Super Star Saga and Partners in Time take place between Luigi's Mansion and Super Mario Sunshine, with several hints towards this being the case, with Luigi's Mansion happening first. For SSS, it's an easy conclusion to draw, E.Gadd's in the game and he's sucking up ghosts. But it's a little more complicated and fascinating in the case of Partners in Time. The hints are given all at once, which leads me to believe that it's on purpose to establish where it is chronologically. There is a moment where Professor E.Gadd is given inspiration to create what appears to be a prototype FLUDD, and I say prototype because he presents the sudden idea to create a device to shoot lots of water everywhere as something that he's never thought of doing before and would naturally have lead to him deciding to create a more portable version in the future. Now, it could be that he's simply not thought of transporting *large quantities* of water before, but this assumption is coupled with the next piece of evidence - which again, occurs immediately afterwards - comes after Bowser begins to interact with his past self. During these interactions with Baby Bowser, Bowser draws no comparisons to Bowser Jr, despite it being an easy conclusion to draw, and seems to take quite naturally to a 'father figure' role in his relationship with his younger self. This leads me to believe that not only has Bowser not had Bowser Jr yet, but was *inspired* by this interaction with his past self to sire an heir of his own. Even in the case that the M&L series are not canon, this is too good an instance of continuity and character depth (both of which are VERY RARE in the series). I will consider them to be canon, no matter what anyone says.

In Superstar Saga, Toad asks Mario if he got rusty after his VACATION. If Paper Mario isn't canon; why would Toad worry about Mario getting rusty with Action Commands between Sunshine, Luigi's Mansion & Superstar Saga if Paper Mario & SMRPG aren't canon?

Mario is one franchise where I truly think the timeline doesn’t matter (joykill I know), and usually I’m obsessed with timelines. Zelda, Metroid, even sonic the hedgehog are series that I feel need to have concrete timelines because current events are heavily influenced from previous events. Mario games have always been incredibly isolated events, so really any game could go anywhere. Mario is a plumber, veteran, hero, and doctor all at the same time. Mario is like your dads best friend who comes over sometimes and tells all these crazy stories of all the cool things they did back in the good ol days.

Paper Jam Bros really throws a wrench into the whole universe lol

You're also forgetting that in Luigi's Mansion the first portrait ghost you visit, Neville, is reading a book where, if you use the Gameboy Horror to look closely at it, the cover says, "Mario Story." This implies that the first Paper Mario was indeed made into a book--though, sad as it is, it probably wasn't Herringway's version since the title is different. So close. And then, in Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door, that one gaming Toad boy in Petalburg mentions playing through the first Paper Mario game on his Nintendo 64 and even beating TTYD before you do, suggesting that video games also exist within this universe--even of the actual games themselves. Opens a whole other can of worms that makes things even more confusing, but it would be fascinating to explore sometime, I'm sure. Personally, I've always liked the idea of the first three Paper Mario games being canon to the main series, so I would probably count those. As for the last three, I could maybe see Origami King having some merit, though it does do some things I don't like, so it's kinda borderline for me. Sticker Star definitely feels like an unfinished as-basic-as-you-can-get game, to which I theorize that it's an in-universe creation made by someone who really didn't like reading or playing through the events of the first two Paper Marios for some reason (my candle to that being that, not only is it insulting to play for Paper Mario fans, but you even see memos of a couple of their iconic characters literally in the trash heap). Color Splash takes place in a whole new place of its own, having a nature of its own that's unique to it, which probably gives it the most merit of the latter three games, but people can argue with me on that if they want. Better than Sticker Star, but still a trash game (too many of the same character!). And the book that appears in Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam? That was the insulting book of Sticker Star. While I don't have any evidence to back me up, my theory is: somebody who was offended tried to curse the book, only for that curse to go wrong and it brought all the characters in it to life, in turn causing them to come hurtling out when Toad and Luigi knock it off the shelf. Super Mario RPG and the Mario & Luigi series are, without a doubt, canon games, since they seem to be more consistent with how the mainline series works. But it's all open to interpretation. As a whole, Mario is a series that doesn't make much sense anyway, but that's okay because it's not supposed to--and yet, it works. It's no wonder how it became such an iconic series--it really brought to light what video games should be, and I don't think anyone can argue that it should be any different because of that.

I like to think it's that the "Real" Mario world and the Paper Mario world were perfect mirrors of each other (including the events of the original Paper Mario), but after the original Paper Mario got written into a book my Hemingway and forgotten about in a library for a while, paper jam happend and after they got back into the book they now know they're paper and the interaction between the two worlds WAS the divergence point, and since then they have been exploiting the fact they are made out of paper and using non-paper world knowledge to make non-paper artifacts, from then on the two worlds went in fairly different directions (although still with plenty of similarities as well). [Insert Game Theory joke here]

I think using the Miyamoto quote as proof is kind of disingenuous. When the question is framed like "There are multiple Links, but it is always the same Mario?" your first and immediate answer would be no, even if you thought Mario and Paper Mario are different. Mentioning Link immediately transforms the question from "Are there multiple Marios?" to "Are you playing as a different Mario each game." There's a pretty good chance that Paper Mario didn't even cross Miyamoto's mind because for 99% of the series, it is the same Mario.

In Japan, Hemmingway's book is called "Mario Story"

The paper Mario universe is a pocket dimension in Mario and luigi

Crack theory: Herringway wrote the first 3 Paper Mario's based on the the real exploits of Mario, and the 'inception' of him talking about writing the book is just his own little self insert nod to what inspired him to write this very book. Then he decided to improv the next 3 stories and really lean into the paper aesthetic he presented in those books and due to Herringway now writing off his imagination rather than Mario's actual adventures, Sticker Star and Colour Splash are uhhhh not so good.

My theory is that everything that happened in the mainline Mario universe also happened in the Paper Mario universe, and vice versa...for the most part. Let me explain. Personally, I feel like most of the RPGs had to have happened in the mainline universe to some degree, including (half of) the Paper Mario games. Both 64 and Thousand-Year Door have Star Pieces, a collectable with the same name as the pieces of Star Road from Super Mario RPG, implying that it might be the same material. Things start to get tricky when the paper gimmick is further emphasized, but the paper transformations and dimensional flipping can be handwaved as magic granted by the Chest Demons and Bestovius, respectively. Adding to this is that no character aside from Mario can perform these actions, because they weren't granted the same powers. That all changed with Sticker Star, where the characters are paper by nature and without the help of magic. Getting creased or waterlogged is an in-universe concern now, whereas previously Mario would just get bit by a robotic fish if he fell in water. Everything from Sticker Star onward could only have happened in the paper world, but the events of the first three games absolutely took place. It's not unreasonable to assume that there _is_ an equivalent to the Sticker Comet or the Paint Stars, or that there really is a technique that can bring paper to life. However, things such as real-world items being used as weapons of mass destruction or turned into sentient minions, plus the characters' color seemingly equating to vim as shown in Partners in Time, imply a far different set of rules from the mainline Mario, with some minor similarities. As for events from the main games being referenced in Paper Mario, the Tattles on various enemies continually reference how "you've been fighting them since Super Mario Bros." or "your first adventure." One Hammer Bro in the Glitz Pit even mentions his grandpa, who was specifically noted to reside in World 7-1 of that game. Not only that, but races like Piantas, Little Mousers and Bumpties continually show up throughout the game as opposed to just Toads (at first). And, while we don't actually have confirmation, one of the many stars in Star Haven could very well be the one that became Geno. After all, their main job is to grant wishes, and Geno is a messenger of the stars. I probably put way more effort into this theory than I reasonably should, but anything's possible at this point.

crazy how the entire paper mario universe being contained inside a book sounds like a mario universe SCP

yes, they all are. paper mario games past super take place in a storybook while the first three and the rest of the rpgs take place in the "real" world. every single mario game is canon. saved you 13 minutes

I think when they say that the Paper Mario universe is 1 to 1, I think they mean that all the characters in the story are the same as the ones in the real Mario universe... That's how the Star Spirits and the King Goomba can exist, because they're both just parallel to each other. The events that occur aren't necessarily exact, its like a different timeline where everything is paper. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the first Paper Mario was just a retelling of an event that occurred in the Mario universe, which was written down by that penguin dude, thus leading to the creation of the book that houses the actual Paper Mario universe. Because in the first game there was basically no hints to them actually being made of paper other than the art style. All the paper shenanigans didn't start happening until later. And the reason the Paper Mario block appears in Superstar Saga is either just a reference and nothing more (not meant to be taken seriously), or the people who ran the facility were somehow aware of the Paper Mario universe's existence, and somehow were able to get a block from there. Also... the existence of that facility in general brings up a lot of questions, because it implies that the different block appearances aren't just art style differences between games.

This is such a Mamma Mia moment

I good way of explaining the paper Mario, Marioverse paradox (which is what I’m calling it) is that since paper Mario is referred to as “Mario story” in Luigi’s mansion, and Luigi’s mansion has references to Bowser’s previous defeat (paper Mario 64) the universes may parallel one another, and everything that has happened in Mario canon has happened in paper Mario, however due to the difference in the structure of both universes (let’s no ignore the fact that Paper Mario runs on string theory, meaning technically two multiverses in the Mario world) with paper Mario being made from paper etc, events like colour splash and origami king didn’t happen in the 3D games due to the ways the multiverses function. This could also explain the Mario Kun continuity as it may have actually been canon after all, as characters like Dimentio appear in a 3D design as opposed to a 2D one.

Paper Mario 64 -> Paper Mario gets written Book becomes Paper Jam parallel universe -> Paper Mario experiences his adventures Meanwhile Mario is doing his own adventures

I think every RPG except second Paper Mario Trilogy is canon. And maybe Paper Jam because it needs these Paper Mario games to exist.

In Paper Mario, they're all the same and seperate Marios. The oroginal Paper Mario is something the real Mario did, but got written as a book. This book progressed into future tales, such as TTDY, SPM, etc. That's why events from Paper Mario 1 are referenced in future games-it's what both Mario and Paper Mario did

Here's how EVERYTHING can be canon: Super Mario Galaxy 1's Ending. BOOM! Problem Solved!

my theory is that it works like Doctor Who time travel. All characters that meet themselves only remember meeting themselves from their oldest perspective so paper Mario in Paper Jam will forget all his interactions with the bros because he is younger than non-paper mario and therefore non-paper mario can be surprised by the meeting because he doesn't remember it. We already know that time travel exists in the Mario & Luigi games because of Partners in Time so maybe all the paper games happen between baby mario & luigi and adult mario & luigi, this still lines up with the blocks of nostalgia room too.

i think the Miyamoto statement is just about the main plataformer games of Mario, not spin offs, so maybe Mario RPG and Mario & Luigi happened in the real world, while Paper Mario is a book that recounts the story of a mario adventure (Paper Mario N64) and then creates new adventures, like if they made a book about a real story but them continues with fictional stories.

To start off, the reason Mario can fold up into paper in TTYD is because he was cursed. He turns from normal Mario into a flat sheet of paper before folding. So as stated in the video, Paper Jam proposes the paper world as being identical to the real world, just with everyone made of paper. Paper stuff in TTYD is explicitly "curses," as I brought up. The earlier games have barely any self-awareness when it comes to being made of paper. Paper Mario 64 has some stuff, like Mario floating down from Goompa's destroyed veranda, Goombas hiding flat on top of blocks or on signposts, as well as a Star Kid hiding from others by turning sideways so he's too thin to be seen. None of this is important to the plot, and there's no mention from anyone saying that they know they're made of paper. So we could say that just happens in the book world version of the events, and not the real world. But what about the modern games, where paper is directly part of major events and plotpoints? This is where *_Paper Jam Self-Awareness_* theory comes in. What if the events of Paper Jam were so life-changing, that the entire book world became self-aware that they were made of paper? The paper characters would know they are flat and be used to being flat, but they'd never think about it. They'd never realize they can use this to their advantage or that they can literally treat themselves or the world like pieces of paper. But after coming to the real world, they absolutely would! The result is Sticker Star, Color Splash, and Origami King, where the knowledge of the world being paper inspires characters to do things they never thought of before. Bowser crumples up Toads. Goombas roll up into wheels, Shy Guys tear up the very ground they walk on. And the "things?" They're real world objects someone in Peach's castle has been dropping into the book world for fun. And if you think about it, the modern games can still happen without paper. - Sticker Star? Only issue is the "things" as well as some of the enemies trying fancy new paper stuff. The real world could've had these same events just without those, easily! The Sticker Comet and Royal Stickers can still exist. Stickers don't have to exist in a paper world to function. - Color Splash is a bit more iffy. I'd imagine this game is the _most_ different compared to the real world events. But "things" would not exist, of course. - Origami King though? Think back to TTYD. All the paper stuff was due to curses. Same can apply here. An Origami Craftsman uses the fold of life technique to create Olly. Olly uses the magic granted by the fold of life to bring origami tools to life. Olly and these tools use their magic to transform people into paper and fold them up. Some of the stuff in Origami King would literally be body horror in the real world, which explains why it's a Paper Mario game in the first place! These sorts of things _can_ happen in the real world, but they'd be terrifying if they weren't within the paper framing device. The Paper Mario games we get to play are the adventures Mario went on that made the most sense to be seen from the paper perspective. And the events of PM64 are known in-universe as "Mario Story" due to the book Hemmingway wrote about the events (which is separate from the book holding the paper world). Now, it's important to note that Paper Jam has a few minor details that imply that it takes place AFTER Sticker Star. These are 1) Megacrinkle Papercraft Goomba has a crown designed after a royal sticker 2) Paper Tower Pokey has a crown that resembles a royal sticker. However, it's not actually a sticker and it has a spike instead of a jewel. It's also worth noting that this Tower Pokey is not the same as the Sticker Star one. He has weird design differences that are not present in Sticker Star So we see 2 things inspired by the Royal Stickers, but they're not the Royal Stickers themselves. This doesn't necessarily mean Paper Jam is after Sticker Star, but it _could_ mean that. However, that would just mean that the Paper World became self-aware on their own somehow, _prior_ to Paper Jam. So the self-awareness part of the theory can still work, but how Paper Jam plays into it isn't as important. I choose to believe Paper Jam self-awareness theory, but I think at the very least, the book world became self-aware sometime before Sticker Star, and that's why there are things that can't happen in the real world. The events of the modern games can still happen, just with some differences here and there to account for the paper stuff. For all we know, Color Splash could've happened in teh real world, but just wasn't very interesting and was resolved much faster.

Congrats on the quality of this video. Like the prodigal child of game theory

I personally believe that there are 2 Mario universes. The first one is real Mario. This includes anything not in the Paper games. This as well includes Mario RPG and Mario and Luigi being in the real Mario universe. Then the paper universe exists inside of a book inside Peach’s castle. The reason characters like the star spirits appear is because they exist in both universes. In short, Mario RPG and Mario and Luigi are canon and paper Mario (While being a different Mario) can interact with Main Mario. Shoot, I think it’s highly likely that Huey was the one to introduce the black paint to Bowser’s Fury!

I think that in paper jam, the storybook there is just a normal storybook that allowed the stories written inside to come to life. I think the idea that the paper Mario series is actually just real events that were translated into a storybook, and the author just takes a lot of creative liberties

I like to think of Mario like a Looney Toons Character, he's an actor that plays similar roles no matter where he goes, just like bugs bunny, but the setting of his misadventures is always changing

I like to think Mario & Luigi and the first three Paper Mario games are canon events, eventually being written into books of real Mario adventures, while the later three Paper Marios were original projects done BEFORE those adventures by Mario himself for a fun puzzle solving activity for the Mushroom Kingdom. This would lead into Mario thinking this was a horrible idea, and wouldn't be fun with all the obtuse solutions, thus shelving the pop-up books never to be sold. This is what leads into Paper Jam, and why Sticker Star of all Paper Marios got the limelight.

You talking about that penguin character and detailing that's not technically a penguin got me thinking of an idea I've once had of making a mario tree of life. Basically Taxonomy for all species/lifeforms in the mario universe, I tried multiple times, but have given on the idea, as it seemed to be too much work to me. Idk just sounds like a video you would make.

in my opinion PM 1-3 & SMRPG are the same universe (mainly cause of the existence of unique species like the shamans), a M&L universe and lastely a Paper Jam+PM 4-6 universe (the Sticker Album from PMSS looks nearly identical to the book from Paper Jam and unlike the old games Bob-Ombs are mortal)

Who would canonically win in a war? The smithy gang from mario rpg or fawfuls army of Machines from the final battle in minion quest in the superstar saga remake and bowsers inside story (midbus and the best fitness friends from bowser jrs adventure included) (smithys final forms included)

I think to simplify it, the games up until Super are things that actually happened as they don't heavily emphasise on the whole "paper" thing, they are just retellings with paper as we are playing them. Sticker Star onwards are entirely new stories not based on anything just entirely paper themed.

Maybe the most recent Paper Mario games are in-universe books that reference the events of the first 3, which actually took place

Super Paper Mario (on the Wii) is my second favorite RPG like Mario game. Bowser's Inside Story is my favorite Mario RPG like game.

Y'all casually forgetting that Wrinkly Kong was playing Super Mario 64 back in Donkey Kong Country 3.

I personally believe that the original Paper Mario takes place in the main mario canon, and that the storybook art style is a simple recreation/retelling of what happened ln the main continuity, and everything afterward in the Paper Mario timeline would take place in that magical book that was one created and would later reappear in Paper Jam, but that's my best guees

Take a drink every time he says _Paper_ or _Mario._

Short Answer: Yesn’t

Okay..I know I shouldn't throw my interpretation into this, but I assumed that SMRPG, Mainline, and Mario & Luigi Mario are the same Mario due to how Mario as a character works. But then Paper Mario 64 is canon as well to Paper Mario and Mario, but not in the way that most people would assume. Mario's story I always assumed was based around Mario's own adventure to rescue Peach and turns into a story book that eventually becomes the Paper World. That's why stuff like Goomboss and the star spirits show up in both Paper Mario 64 and the other titles due to how it originally was a story that Mario did go on, but then it turns into a story book that sooner or later becomes its own thing.

My take is the book inception idea; the evidence of photographs doesn't disprove it. The penguin started making up wacky sequels that leaned into papercraft instead of just retellings of real Mario adventures with some artistic liberties, and those stories had pictures of the earlier books in them too. That's it. Or, the crazier solution: most of the complicated canon like the DK family and the early RPGs started to get contradicted after the Gamecube era. And what came out after that? Galaxy and New Super Mario. Clearly Galaxy's ending is a lore nuke that retconned everything from the Thousand-Year Door to the original Super Mario Bros games.

If you ask me, yes, unless you're talking about Sticker Star, Color Splash and Origami King... which I guess also means Paper Jam is a no, too.

How bout this: after the success of he first Paper Mario book, Harlingway wrote ttyd and spm and more, expanding on the Paper theme from the title of the first book, which allows explaining how the Paper Mario series references itself as well as why it's pretty much only elements from the first that made it into the "main universe". In short: Paper Mario 64 happens for real and was just portrayed stylistically, the adventure was adapted in-universe as a novel, that novel has sequels, and eventually the characters from one of them come out during Paper Jam

Maybe all the paper Mario stories are all based off of real stories, but the writer took some “creative liberties” to make the story more interesting. And the mysterious book is just a book where the characters came to life.

I interpret the "Every Mario is the same" in the way that, no matter the world, the art style, or the game, Mario is always Mario. Not the exact same Mario from another game, but still Mario in personality and spirit. No matter what, Mario will always be Mario in every single world.

My personal headcanon is that the paper Mario games we play as are the mostly nonfiction (?) novels that exists in the Mario canon. It's like an autobiography of Mario's events but with a creative twist. So while the real Mario went through the events of paper mario, the paper Mario games that we play are retellings of those adventures. Paper Jam is having the canon real Mario team up with the autobiography / Novel Mario. This fits into paper jam as well. The paper Mario that is in Mario and Luigi paper jam is the book novel version of Mario, whereas the regular Mario is the actual real Mario. The real Mario went through the events of Super Mario RPG as well as the Mario and Luigi too. The only issues are Sticker Star, Color Splash, and Origami King. Personally, I like to think that these three games are fictional but do borrow real elements that Mario did do on those adventures. Meaning that those paper Mario games are more fictional than nonfiction?

Paper Mario,s continuity was literally retconned in 2015 with Paper Jam the intention up until Sticker star was that PM and M and L were in the same timeline as the mainline games and each other. If Nintendo in the 2010,s cared more about the franchise,s worldbuilding, lore and maybe even create an official Mario Timeline like they did with Zelda in 2011 they could have connected the rpg,s with the mainline games I would absoulutely Dream of a ,,Mario HIstoria,, that adds a bunch of canon lore, references easter eggs, a timeline etc. Some people however are gonna say ,,The Zelda timeline was made up long after the fact by Dark Horse Comics, a team not connected with Zelda at all,,. No the Timeline was just a codification of canon information heavily supervised by Nintendo and Aonuma, yes it has issues(the fallen timeline and Four Swords Adventures come to mind) but it is canon, you can,t just take that away. In 2015 Dark horse realeased the official Mario encyclopedia, however unlike Hyrule Historia or even Hyrule encyclopedia it barely included lore and barely featured the spinoffs,What I want is a Second Encyclopedia to come out in 2025 at the 40th anniversary of Mario and too really expand the lore dramatically, re retcon Paper Mario as a part of the mainline canon and create an official timeline.

If toadette was from the main Mario timeline and ttyd that means the timelines are connected to paper jams story book as a key to travel to a version of the Mario timeline

I like to think that all of the paper mario stories happened but the way we see them are part of that “Paper Mario” storybook the penguin made. So in regards to answering the question of whether the paper games are canon, i’d say “well yes but actually no”

It's pretty easy really, Mario just eat a spoiled double cherry and the clon appeared made of paper, so he was send to a parallel universe by Professor E. Gadd

it's even more confusing considering that the first paper mario is a sequel to mario rpg

The way I see is that Super Mario RPG AND Mario & Luigi are in the same universe as the main games (Super Mario Bros., 64, Odyssey, etc.). The Paper Mario games are just books in the main universe, BUT they’re somewhat based on true events. However, they’re obviously exaggerated to emphasize the paper element. Maybe the later, more Paper focused ones like Sticker Star and Color Splash aren’t, but I think the original trilogy is. As for the Paper Mario block in Superstar Saga, it could just be a recreation of the ones seen in the book.

It's like when modern Mickey Mouse brought back the Mickey Mouse from Steamboat Willie and shit went weird

That whole tangent about the in-Game book makes sense to me, that would explain why the Paper Mario world would gradually become more flat (get it) and flanderized, leading to Sticker Star and beyond. Herringway just ran out of ideas at that point.

I think they are cannon to their own universes, like they are all seperate worlds with similar worlds, It's the only thing to make sense of the vastly differing kingdoms/personalities/just straight up completely contradictory things to the main lore.

Also King Boo is Bowser. Bowser died and he became a ghost and he kidnapped Mario to get revenge.

I think that sticker star is the book that penguin wrote and in paper jam that sticker star mario is the one that comes forth in the crossover. The other paper Mario games are the main mario

What if all paper mario after the 64 version is just fanfiction.

I think Paper Mario is a different Mario. The first game actually happened, and was written. We experience the game through the written book. TTYD could've also happened, but we experience it through another book, where the writer took some creative liberties, which would explain how Mario can fold himself in the game, he couldn't IRL, but the writer gave him the ability in his book. The book was then stored in the castle, and through some magic, this book then became it's own world. Then, the events of the rest of the Paper Mario series happened exclusively in this world.

I'mm just guessing that Paper Mario is just books written on SS (Superstar Saga) Mario's past adventures with a written twist on them. But now that I'm realizing, it DOES make sense why Mario & Luigi from paper jam are shocked seeing their paper counterparts. When playing through Partners In Time, you play as the SS bros taking the PIT bros through your journey to save Princess Peach. After your journey is over, the PIT bros goes back into their own time period where things are vastly different since the SS bros and the PIT bros go on different journeys in the next 3 games. You play as the PIT bros in BIS (Bowser's Inside Story) thanks to the little mention in a secret area in the castle. You then play the next games as the SS bros in Dream Team (DT) and the PIT bros in Paper Jam (PJ). Which would mean that Paper Mario ISNT PIT Mario but SS Mario from the time where SS Mario and PIT Mario met and one could assume that the book from the SS Mario's world ended up in the PIT Mario's world. which is how this story collapse since there are no real ways that a book from SS would in up in PIT unless it somehow ended up going through the portal to the past world. but PJ Mario is NOT SS Mario

i think nintendo went through a phase of treating all their series as part of a cohesive whole that's all canon, but have recently steered away from that to more segmented series identities, with the mainline series kind of having "authority" over the other series being treated more like "spin-offs", where the latter can reference the former but the former doesn't acknowledge the latter ( in other words the mainline games are treated as canon by the spin-offs, but the spin-offs are not necessarily treated as canon by the mainline games )...but we'll have to wait and see if they loop back around at all, since we're going through the mario rpg renaissance right now so like the first paper mario was VERY acknowledged around its time, the thousand-year door a bit less so, and so on that being said the most coherent watsonian explanation i've heard is, going off that assumption about "mario story" being a book-within-a-book, basically the events of the first paper mario and some ambiguous amount of later paper marios really happened, and THEN they got written into a book which is the version that we play, and at some unclear point they just started writing sequels even if they weren't based on real events any more, and then later, in paper jam, the book with its fictional sequels and stuff contained within got brought to life

There's no canon in Mario games. They're just games, not literature. The only "canon" is the same characters are used.

my thought is that the paper mario games have an unreliable narrator in the form of Penningway who allegorifies some of the more body-horror-ish elements of mario's journey (i.e. becoming a plane) into a paper representation to avoid scaring the kids who read his books.

Fun fact: Paper Mario was originally planned to be a sequel to Super Mario RPG

Haha, I loved this video! Maybe every game is in its own canon universe. And if they mention a past game, that just means the mario you are currently playin ALSO went on that past adventure

Just because there is pictures of the other paper Mario’s games/characters in the new paper Mario’s doesn’t necessarily mean that that the new paper Mario’s aren’t just the story of Mario, if you decide to ignore what miyamoto says, because just because it is a story doesn’t mean the story version of Mario can’t have the lore/past of the real Mario. I say the later paper Mario’s and Mario vs Luigi vs paper Mario’s is either alternate universe or weird retelling of possible real events but not the real Mario in my head cannon

Counter Argument: Paper Mario can time travel but he forgot it before the Mario & Luigi series

I wish RPG characters of the Mario franchise got more love, whether in spin-offs like the Party or Kart games, or just cameos/characters in mainline games. Paper Mario definitely needs to appear in a Super Mash Bros. someday. Heck! Imagine something like Mario Kart: RPGrand Prix that focuses solely on the RPG characters.

Considering how loosey goosy the Mario series plays it's cannon to begin with if we take into account EVERY single Mario game and Spin Off ever including the RPG's, a better question would be does it really matter if the RPG's are truly cannon or not?

This video is right! It's criminal that all the paper/rpg Mario games don't have true switch releases!

I support the idea of the pre-Sticker Star Paper Mario games being events that the real Mario experienced. The paper aesthetic was only supposed to be a stylistic choice to make the game appear like a storybook/stage play (SMB3 did something kind of similar with the stage play aesthetic), not the literal structure of the universe like Sticker Star onward. TTYD's paper abilities were freaky unworldly curses inflicted on the player, not natural attributes they always had. I know it's not canon or even official but as someone who loved Super Mario Bros Z in my youth I always appreciated the series' respect for the RPG lore, as upon viewing/playing the RPGs myself AFTER watching SMBZ I look at characters like the Koopa Bros, Axem Rangers and Boshi and always get a little boost of nostalgia because "It's the guys SMBZ referenced!" It just made the whole franchise seem like one big world to me.

People really need to pay more attention to the "just like Mickey Mouse" line. Every officially licensed game is canon (i.e. part of the official body of works), but any type of solid continuity just... isn't a thing. Every game can freely borrow from or ignore any other, as the franchise is about iconography rather than actual characters and settings.

Counter point to Paper Mario always being the same. If Herringway wrote the first few books exactly as the adventures happen there could still be pictures from previous adventures despite being a different instance since a one to one recreation of the events of the first taking place again in the in-universe book could explain that inconsistency at least

I think that Paper Mario is a separate universe and all the other rpgs, as well as sports, parties, karts, Luigi's Mansion, Wario Land, WarioWare, Yoshis Island, Captain Toad, Princess Peach and Donkey Kong games are canon to the platformers. The crossovers with Sonic and the Rabbids I'm still undecided about.

Yes they are. Miyamotto said he considers the Mario characters as actors playing different roles.

Could "Paper Mario" the book be the same book that is the "mysterious book" opened at the beginning of paper jam?

4:28 Also about Mickey Mouse, in Mickey Mouse: the timeless adventure / Mickey Mania the very first level has 2 verison of Mickey, "Modern" (the player) & Steamboat Willie

I always thought Mario rpg was put in but without that square charm, the chancellor is basically toadsworth, and paper mario are fairy tales in the Mario Luigi universe. Personally the Mario and luigi SS and the first 2 paper mario games happen the others are tales from books written later just because they either go too serious or too silly

8:41 - That can still work with the original theory, since Paper Mario from the book universe was created by the penguin writter and artist for a book retelling the original Paper Mario or A Thousand Year door stories. Based on all the evidence you showed, the best explanation is that Paper Mario is a parallel universe where the events in its timeline are nearly identical to normal Mario + Mario RPG and the Mario & Luigi series, but at some point between Super Paper Mario and Sticker Star, their timelines diverged, which I believe might have something to do with the psper universe characters realizing the true potential tgey have as paper people and creatures. That's why they could cross over in Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam, since they aren't the same. Now, if Mr. Shigeru Miyamoto meant that every single Mario is the same, then the only logical explanation I can think of based on other comments here is that one of Mario's jobs is being a film and stage actor like in Mario Bros. 3 &/ or artist and the Paper Mario games post-Super Paper Mario are just movies or book staring or made in conjunction with Mario and the first 3 games really are just storry book retellings of marios adventures.

I still consider Paper Mario as fictional stories of Mario's past adventures, written by an in-universe character.

well the stories are more consistent between each other in RPGs, as far as I'm concerned it should be "Are the mainline games canon?" lol

6:21 Uh....assuming that the paper forms are the past of the current cast of characters, and the book is like a history book documenting the past, you think that no one should be surprised to see a younger you coming out of a book?

Is there even a canon? Are not all of the various games isolated? I mean, even Yoshi's Island: SMW2 has basically been retconned away. It's basically in its own universe, with the other Yoshi games. Another theory, which is basically just THE PLOT of Super Mario Bros 3, is that the Mario 'characters' are actually just actors, constantly putting on performances. It helps make sense of the Mickey comment. They're just doing performances in the form of adventures, where Mario is always the hero, Bowser is always the villain, Peach is always the damsel, etc.

Ah, the canonicity of the Mario RPGs... it's always an intriguing topic to see people talk about, to be honest. Personally, I do think that the events of Super Mario RPG and the Mario & Luigi games have happened, while the Paper Mario series takes place within its own parallel world that otherwise has an identical history to Mario's world. As for how things from the Paper Mario series have eventually made their way into Mario's world regardless? Well, I liken it to how Kirby Right Back At Ya takes place in its own continuity separate from the games, but despite that is referenced every now and then and even influenced things like Meta Knight's sword getting its name and the basis for its current design. All in all, this is a pretty great watch. I especially loved those last couple moments regarding what is and isn't canon to people.

Maybe the events of Paper Mario 1 happened in both the main universe and the Paper universe, but the rest of the Paper Mario series only happens in the Paper universe. Like maybe the events that happen in Paper Mario were commemorated in a magical book, and we see the book version of those events, but the magic book kept going on after it finished telling the first story, which meant that it diverged from the original universe.

9:07 Actually, you forgot a pretty crucial piece of the Mario canon to take into consideration, that make this whole mess work: Galaxy, and it's ending, as well as Super Luigi Galaxy. Galaxy thus far, besides Paper Jam has been the most pivotal piece of evidence to allow us know that not only the concept of a Mario multiverse is possible, but that there are indeed multiple Mario timelines. Take in consideration that after Mario's journey in Galaxy is over, every single Galaxy in Galaxy 1 becomes part of Mario's own Galaxy; Something confirmed with him shouting "Welcome new Galaxy!"; This is important to take in consideration because in Odyssey this isn't shown. We go to Mario's planetary moon but the space around it is empty, pitch-black, which is a stark contrast to how the Galaxies were now presented to have overcrowded Mario's own Galaxy to the point they weren't that far off eachother. Why does this matter? Because after that point Rosalina's origin story begins to cycle again. In the 120 secret ending, after Rosalina's leaves this new born Galaxy, a lone Peach-Colored Luma is seen exiting the now destroyed Toad Ship, much like it was presented in her first storybook when she discovered a lonely Luma which I believe was looking for it's Mother? Whatever is the case, is a straight confirmation that from that moment that part of the Mario canon came to an end with Rosalina's birth and an universal reset years after the universe might of sadly naturally died out. Then we have Galaxy 2, the new cycle of that timeline. A brand new story that starts familiar, from Mario Bros. to Sunshine but that repeats the events of Galaxy 1 but with notable differences. For one, Mario's Luma is reborn and remembers Mario, hence why it was so happy to see him and lost no time in giving him the Spin ability. We know is the same as Lumba refers to it in respect and awe, calling it "Master" or something like that (Sorry, played the Spanish version so forgive me if I got naming and titles wrong). Thirdly, Rosalina treats Mario with familiarity, not quite as mysterious as before but rather as if she was seeing and old friend. The thing to take in consideration is that yes, there can be two variants of Mario in the same timeline since it is ever-looping: It dies to live, and lives to die; With a new Rosalina overseeing and keeping track of the cosmos and galactic order of events, to ensure no matter how different these are, they follow their due flow. What is interesting is that this doesn't equal to just one timeline living and dying. In fact, Super Luigi Galaxy 1 proves that there is more than just one iteration of the same canon, as two Luigis seem to be present at the same time of events in Galaxy 1... In a version of the story in which Mario either was never present or actually died at the hands of Kamek. It really makes you wonder which is the Luigi that lost his universe's Mario. Nonetheless, there IS a version of Galaxy that replicated Mario's journey simultaneously that another one lost it's Mario, meaning that now there were two Luigi Galaxies entangling into one story. This tells us that all Mario universes can either be one and the same, follow a particular set of games and then soft reboot into a new cycle, or crossover because there are remnants of a former cycle within a new timeline; Which is what I feel happened in Paper Jam. We have to take in consideration, the OG Mario timeline ended in Galaxy but began anew in Galaxy 2 all the way to Odyssey. Would it be weird to consider that most Mario RPGs just branch out after Mario World or 64, even Sunshine, and from that point onwards becomes it's own singular entity until natural death or cycle repeat? I really don't. Just take in consideration that there are still other non-RPG spinoff titles that have spawn off after a certain point in the cycle. I like to think, however, that from Partners in Time onwards the Mario and Luigi universe and Paper Mario's sort of split, with Paper Mario's universe following it's due flow of time in it's book counterpart thus making it a pocket dimension, meanwhile in Mario and Luigi's reality Bowser's change of strategies is what allows that universe to have a different flow of events, yet still both coexisting in the same cycle, just part of a shared multiverse.

Sticker star onward being a separate universe doesnt bother me. Fuck those games lol

My theory is that all the rpgs are canon, and how the other Paper Marios work is that after Paper Mario 64 was written, the book started to write itself.

I like to think it’s all canon to one time line. Sometimes Mario world is just paper.

One could also say that during paper jam during the moment when all the characters from the paper jam book of paper mario a block might have ended up somewhere in the beanbean kingdom or perhaps a character brought it there?