After making this video and reading a lot I am surprised by the rapidity of change in standards being adopted that don't appear to match the battery technology. The fire risk has been built around lithium ion battery's not Lithium phosphate which are different technology, density and rather use of bms battery management devices [internal or external ] seems to reduce the risk substantially as well as battery protect devices which shut down in the event of a short or overcharging failure. I guess the important thing is to mitigate all risks and comply to ensure proper coverage both for lives and insurance.Rossco
Enclosing lithium batteries seem to be a mute point as if they do go into a thermal runaway they are a self supporting fire and burn at over 1000 deg c Boeing lost a few of they first aircraft with lithium batteries due to charging issues and subsequent fire. I think the first iterations of mitigation will reactive more than proactive. Hopefully newer technologies of batteries will render these issues redundant as chemistry changes moving forward.
Yeah, for containing a thermal runaway a little bit of epoxy isn't going to do much. You'd want 5mm of steel or 20mm of MGO sealed fireproof material all round. And a big honking vent that goes somewhere you can afford to stay away from for a couple of days. But since LiPo and LMC are the main problem chemistries thtose are the targets for that firebox treatment. In many ways the "in a box, with a vent, but we DGAF what the box is made of" is a compromise suited to LFP - it's mostly going to keep seawater off your batteries.
It is definitely confusing. AMSA seems to be mixing the 2 battery types. I believe lithium-ion is mentioned due to personal devices, such as phones and wireless speaker batteries potential to start a fire. This may be what started the fire on the US vessel Conception. AMSA also refers to a 2016 pdf from the UK regarding Lithium-Ion Phosphate, and other Lithium-Ion battery types, where it recommends the battery compartment is vented to expel toxic and flammable gasses. (most likely from an over heating melt down). Are the insurance companies interpreting AMSA’s unclear advice? Hope I haven’t muddied the water. Cheers D
i can see why lifepo4 batteries should be sealed and vented on boats. if punctured they do create a lot smoke and fumes which are very toxic, certainly enough to fill a boat. and while the fire risk isn't as bad as lithium ion batteries there is still a lot of heat generated and some orange flame in a failure. having them sealed would reduce the biggest risk too which would be a short across the terminals. does the compartment need to be 100% watertight and fireproof, probably not. should it be vented outside and in a box that can take a light flame for a few minutes probably worth doing for you're own peace of mind.
wow this content is months behind where your at now. Your boat will be finished launched and around Australia before we catch up! but always love watching your channel I learn so much from you. Great teacher xx
For those blisteringly hot days, you could place a small home AC unit on deck with a box and dryer hose covering the cold air output. The hose could then be fed into those tight, hot spaces to give some cool air relief, just cool enough for comfort, but not so cold it would mess with the epoxy setting times... 🥶
Ross, I think the sealed vented battery compartment may be a requirement for Commercial Survey, I came across exactly this scenario with my AGMs on our Seawind. They were worried about gases when I spoke with them. We got an exemption due to age of boat at time
Thanks Ron, That makes sense,I imagine it is a standard that has been adopted to make life easy for the insurance companies as well. Only really makes sense with agm and lead acid batteries as nothing gonna save you in a lithium battery fire. Ross
Awesome work Ross, and helpers. For sure those lithium type batteries can throw out an insane amount of power. At the moment i am working on a small lithium pack my self, some 36v 20a, but even such small pack has given me alot of respect for those batteries. Take care. All the best.
Yes Martin they are incredibly powerful.A dead short would be about 20000amps with my system so I need to make sure there is no chance of that.Cheers mate.Rossco
Rossco, hi ! i am surprised it took this long for regulations to come in. Koodo's to Australia. They say a sealed box but what material? That will come next but basically you need a sealed Fire Box> . That eliminates several construction materials like metal, (especially aluminum, wood, fibreglas, foam core. What you are left with is a material which is normally used on walls in homes behind a stove pipe. It is a form of fireproof wall board. It is non conductive , water proof and very strong. This box is sealed with silicone sealer and using heavy plastic angle clips, clipped togther allowing for 3 clis per side. i tell you this now because sooner or later they will come back on the box idea and realize that material choice is necessary.
I know of a super yacht that stores its petrol (gasoline) in what look like life raft cylinders, these can be jettisoned in the event of a fire. Perhaps something similar would work on your boat for the Lithium
I dig that you've made huge changes to the design of this boat, and that all that will naturally make many bits way more difficult to build. That said, I'm suddenly curious about how difficult the original boat would have been to build. And how different what you're doing is from the way the original would have been done. And if you've already explained that, you don't have to again. Just post a link. That said, huge fan, I love you.
Haha,there was a point 8 years when we had over 300 of them.80 as hire and tour operation fleet and over 200 in stock.Most of which I had made myself.bl Both of those businesses now sold and still operating in our town.I still import and make some models Ross
The kinds of Lithium batteries that do catch fire.... no amount of sealing and and air evacuation would save the boat. You would need a thick layer of fire brick for the batteries to be able to burn out in... take a look at some of the EUC fires. I think the sealed is for short protection where the wire insulation could release poisonous gas as it heated. But for that to be effective, the fusing would have to be in the sealed compartment too. I have to wonder what incident happened that created this rule.
I am not convinced that this apparent standard has been adopted from an old AGM and lead acid battery standard and they simply haven't investigated the new technology enough .The BMS and battery protect system we have installed will shut off in the event of thermal runaway.So in all I will continue with the tamper proof box,with venting to Satusfy the insurance company. Rossco.
The US version of the standards ABYC did a lot of tests trying to get them to catch on fire, short of physicaly damaging they couldn't get them to catch on fire, so see a relaxation of standards in the future, I had a situation where a 48 volt battery sat unattended with 130 volts charge voltage (solar controller failed passing full solar voltage to the battery, It blew up like a balloon no fire, all the 7 other batteries (in parallel) internal BMS cut the batteries and they were undamaged,
the standards states that ventilation shall be in accordance with the manufacturers requirements, if the manufacturer does not require ventilation, then no ventilation required, however if its not specified then the same requirements as lead acid batteries are required, the standard goes into a lot more detail re the BMS and it basically discounts the internal BMS types due to the requirements of the BMS to have external monitoring and alarms. there's been a lot of fearmongering of which has peen accepted by the insurance companies as gospel and forcing people to undertake unnecessary modifications to their vessel, equipment etcetera...
You would think they would want you to have some what quick access to the batteries considering the way they can explode into flames? Sounds ridiculous to seal them in.
If it was me Ross, I would put each battery in an enclosed steel box with quick release connectors, and then along with vents and fans I would make each battery in a separate fibreglass enclosure which at the pull of a cord could be dropped into the sea, have you not seen all the ev fires, I would make sure the batteries could not burn the boat down, each one of those batteries need roughly 3000 litres of water to extinguish a fire, I would not leave port without being able to dump them to save the boat, personally I would probably use gel mat batteries, much safer, even considering the weight difference, please make the compartment with the ability to dump the batteries, out at sea your lives could be at stake , take care and best wishes
It seems like they are classifying all lithium batteries as posing the same risk to boaters. What a shame there are probably a thousand articles describing the difference between the chemical composition of the lithium battery types and the safeness of each type. Govt blindness at it's finest.
This looks potentially to be an old standard that apied to agm and lead acid ,not bought up to date to blanket apply,could even be one adopted to in survey charter boats,who knows ,time will tell when I come to reinsure the boat from a build to a completed boat.Not worth retro fitting after the fact.Ross
I have always kept a distance of 3-4 months from work till posting.I simply can't face watching myself work the day I do it as my days are often 10-12 hours long and was always taught to view work and footage with a fresh eye, for a better perspective.Up to date photos etc on patreon,instagram and an occasional update here on youtube.Cheers Ross.
@@LifeOnTheHulls if a cell gets to the point that is is off gassing your about 30 sec away from most likely having a intense fire on your hands and the best thing you can do is 1 of 2 things 1:- fill the battery box with as much sand as it can take then fill it with water or 2:- remove the full battery as fast as possible and get it off the boat in on bare land or overboard in the drink in both cases doing what they are asking you to do will end in a total loss of the boat because you have no easy access to the battery i am in the process of building my 3rd large pack out of separate cells (8S2P 100Ah total of aprox 24V 200Ah) for my mobility scooters i bet there the biggest and go the longest distance of any in good old Brisbane :-) (yep fellow Aussie and Bisbanite to boot) i never work with these cells unless i have a very large metal container with about 60Kg of sand in and next to it (only ever needed it once gladly)
You would think they would not want them confined or air flow restricted to allow for maximum cooling . Maybe should of not tabbed everything but just used screws that way it would be easier when you have to modify it again.
@@LifeOnTheHulls thermal conductivity... If I was planning placement, I'd be putting a Pet cool pad down first. It's not the venting that's the issue, its containment. Ensure the battery box can be sealed from the bottom so in the unfortunate, you can fill the area with water. I'd suggest a high quality NCM which is Nickel Cobalt Manganese chemistry. LFP Lithium Iron Phosphate are lower density so they don't have the issues High density batteries have. Chemistry is changing by the week... Redox Vanadium Batteries are the preference for industrial needs.
All UL and CSA listed lithiium batteries for sale on the market allready COME IN A SEALED METAL BOX that is waterproof and air sealed. Why would they need to go inside another sealed compartment. Someone needs to take the insurance companies to task, and get them updated on the technology that IS IN USE TODAY, rather than what was in use 15 years ago. This may be something that the chinese manufactures should bring up with their LARGE LEGAL FIRMS. WITHOUT ANY DOUGHT THERE IS 1000 TIMES MORE RISK INVOLVED WITH LEAD ACID AND AGM BATTERIES !!! Maybe they should look at that a bit more. CHEERS Steve h.
Metal box should be used for your batteries. I have seen Lifepo4 battery fires. EV fires happen a lot. Thermal runaway. Fiberglass will catch fire fast.
Are you aware of the cat that MJ Sailing is building? Theirs is a kit from Vietnam. They call it a "performance cat". The hull is narrower than yours appear to be so they may be building a faster boat, but it's more limited in interior space. Only 3 bunks (until they fold down the dinette).
The vented box is for when batteries get overcharged by accident should a regulator, charger or BMS fail and they overheat and out-gas, especially while you're asleep. LiFePO4 will out-gas under these conditions even if they don't reach thermal runaway temperature to maintain a fire. Should they short and melt the separator they can also out-gas. If you're worried about fire you can insert fire suppression material such as CellBlockEX in the lid of a fire resistant box. You then have a layer of lid material that holds the suppression material up that when burned or melted through allows the material to drop onto the batteries to contain the fumes and extinguish the fire.
Hi, Rossco, i’m just wondering if you have a reference to the legislation I’ve had difficulty trying to find where these new rules are? Which is typical when you go into a government website ha ha cheers Rustie.
Ross, What does battery manufacturer recommend for this battery composition... this may not be best for batteries in long term if it doesn't meet with manufacturer's planned environmental conditions. Does your bms act electrically only, or does it have a liquid or air cooling design included ?
Well that new regulation on lithium storage and venting certainly seems like a sledgehammer to crack a nut and hardly relevant to lithium phosphate. I expect the authorities are using a catch all because if a boat was built with lithium phosphate the owner may at some point change the batteries to a more vulnerable lithium chemistry.
Crazy if you don't after years of work and money. What if it catches fire in a marina and your uninsured that would ruin your day and everybody else in the marina. What a question.
@@zorbakaput8537 I have yet to find a marina that will let you in without insurance as well so yeah even if you didn't want to insure it will severely limit your options for berthing.
