I don't know what you're talking about. I'm taking my triple Hammerfall Bunker triple Drop Pod with souped Corvis Blackstars list to the next supermajor and I'm going to clean up.
"and in a bizarre set of circumstances we award istathar the grand prize after all his opponents were felled by food poisoning shortly before the tournament took place"
Not mentioned here, but pleeeeease give the bladeguard ancient a power weapon! The fact the regular ancient has one, and the bladeguard ancient doesn't, breaks my brain.
His models so cool as well. I wish Ancients in general had Champion rules. They should be really experienced tough fighters given the honour of holding the flag. Not just man who carries flag.
Reivers and their lost in the woods Lt desperately need some support, especially since a lot of RG players got stuck with them in the boxed set. It's not a choice; it's a lack of options.
I think GW just dont want Reivers on the table and regret their introduction in the first place. In Books every Reiver charakter is a massive asshole and they match not very good with overall "Space Marines are the good guys" vibe.
I hope we get upscaled boxnoughts at some point, not primaris, but truescale like the new leviathan and contemptor dreadnoughts, I'm hoping it comes with Space Wolves for Bjorn.
Dreadnoughts are, unfortunately, outclassed by the new shiny primaris ones and their aura only have a niche effect That aspect is even worse when you play Grey Knights where their price skyrockets and despite an added reroll of hits and wounds for infantry only, it NEVER plays with the infantry as it cannot teleport or follow them without the "auto-6+fly" advance
I have brutalis dread, a redemptor dread and 3 regular dreads. And a running joke me and my friends have is me running all of them and saying “don’t ever talk to us or our sons again”
The whole Codex is the problem. Pick any unit, and you will find a one in another army that does the same job, but better and for fewer points. Playing vanilla marines in 10th edition has been an uphill battle from the start.
I think they mean it to be a starter army. after you play them a while, you determine that they arent good and you buy another army. "Working as intended"-James Workshop, probably.
We space marine players suffers from paying a lot of extra pts for 2W and 3W in 10th which feels bad when a lot of factions are dealing 2W and 3W to you anyway. sv 3+ nerf under cover doesn't help. Also, our units are balance with the old oath of moment in mind, hence a lot of our units feels ridiculously bad at wounding or damaging. This is why a lot of our units also have low attack numbers, ballistus is one example of a unit that suffers a lot without re-roll to wounds since it can do nothing in most of my games.
Genuinely there is no reason Vanilla marines shouldn't get the old full oath, to give them something over angels / wolves who get all of the vanilla dex + more with 0 downside
Honestly space marine players complain far too much about paying for 2w 3+ save infantry, the guns you complain about wiping your basic infantry are the ones that threaten the elite infantry and light vehicles of other factions, the small arms fire their troops fear just bounces off marines.
So, several editions ago, I eas really fond of Fortifications, and I'm still sad that they now basically suck across the board, but especially ones like the Hammerfall Bunker. I've played a fair amount of Starcraft, where bunkers, and turrets, can be very valuable, and even in the DoW games, a lot of my own base defense strategy is built with them. In table top, you are basically expected to have to leave something back in your deployment zone; manning your own objective marker(s), and fending off deep strikers, or late game invaders, and it's just too bad that something like this can't be set up well to shore up your home defense, and whittle down enemy intruders, while freeing up more of your mobile troops to go assault, get shooting lines, claim distant objectives, or perform secondary jobs.
I think you could fix the hammerfall bunker by giving the missiles indirect fire making it a kind of replacement for the whirlwind. You could put it on your home objective with the flamers first turn with intercessors they move of with sticky objectives and use the flamers to overwatch any enemy units that come near obviously not optimal but its a way to use it
I believe it was even called "hammerfall drop turret" in earlier design drafts And was supposed to be deep striking gun platform, pretty much like a Deathstrike Drop pod
all they need is an upgrade sprue with generic hammers/fists/powerswords / shields that can be used in primaris units that dont currently have options ... data sheet change boom .. but as GW seem dedicated to whats in the box is what you get , I doubt it will ever come ,, best can hope is they add new sprue in box and repackage it later ..
Yeah, as a DAngels player it breaks my heart to see how underwhelming the new bikes are; and I hate how nothing has options anymore, not compared to the good old days.
3rd party terrain sets always say they're cheaper than GW but that's Titans core set is £107 and there's no way I paid that much for all my GW terrain when I price it up as part of sets like Nachmund
I'm a firm believer that fortifications are just terrain. Strip the rules and forget the rest. Pay 10 points, and you can drop your own army list unique terrain for cover somewhere during the game. Doesn't shoot, can't be shot, just drop in buildings. That's a genuinely fun idea for spicing things up regardless of which army it is. Not hard to balance and gives you a reason to take the things, filling out a list that's a few points short.
That would make sense for some, but not others. Feculent Gnarlmaws, Hammerfell bunkers, maybe even the Tidewall fortifications for the T'au? I can see that. But for fortifications like Noctolith Crowns? That's gonna require some mental loops to jump through
Imagine if they just took all the dataslate changes off marines and put them back to what they were at the beginning of the edition. Could actually make it up to a 50% win rate.
Mah Space Marines need a buff :( The replacement of the dreadnought is funny, because I'm just gonna put my old one on some rocks and proxy him as the better dreadnought
Fixing reavers to fit more of a terror troop playstyle would be easy.give them anti charecter 2+ and dev wound on the melee options.this combined with how they are written with the percision keyword would really make your opponent fear them.
I really think GW is terrified of making marines "too good" other armies(looking at you Eldar) have ways of dumping tons of precision wounds to delete characters, but Reivers have to have no AP for their weapons, making their only viable role(battleshock manipulation is not viable), assassinating characters functionally not possible. outside of minor HQs without extra defensive buffs.
I really like the standard dreadnaught or the "Dinky Dread" as I call it now. Honestly it's issue is for five more points you can get the Ballistus which does it's job better. If the aura effected itself and other vehicles Iron Hand players would love it and I could see a real use for it. Sadly we all know it'll likely be gone come 11th edition.
In first and second edition you could buy off board bombardments with points, and paying a flat fee you could increase their radius. Worked out at one point that you could buy four that would cover the entire board. Then have a single squad of terminators to teleport onto the board at the end of it and finish off whatever might have been left. In play it had a strong chance of your opponent just standing there while you rolled dice, and then shaking hands when he lost. Moral of the story: GW writes bad rules.
1:32 I think it would be fun if you could kit Reivers with Gav Chutes AND Grapnel Launchers at the same time en masse, get some mobility shenanigans going. Also, I think another fun buff would be that they and nearby friendly units could deal more damage to, and hit more accurately in the first place, enemy units that are suffering under the effects of naturally low leadership, and/or leadership debuffs either caused by the Reivers themselves and/or via other means. 5:11 As for their Lieutenant specifically, besides getting rid of the “no deep strike” bit, I think it would be cool if he and Reivers you control while he’s alive gained an AP bonus and some extra attacks while fighting low leadership enemies.
where does it say they cant take both ? the rules only say each model in this unit may take a chut and the same for the launcher nowhere does it say you only get one or the other ?
@@TheCoremeltdown I may have misread their rules… But I AM seeing in the rules that their lieutenant has neither, so I think giving both to him for free would help a bit.
They'd still be trash. They've been bad since they came out and GW appears fully prepared to continue this. At this point they should just go to legends and reduce the SM data sheet bloat.
I think a consistent factor across many of these marines units and other marines units not played much or are weak is zero AP or low AP, it really makes an already mediocre damage output even more mediocre. Another consistent thing, which is consistent across other factions, battleshock special rules generally rubbish, look at not only Reivers but infernus marines. The only semi-impactful battleshock rule IMO is shadow in the warp because it forces so many battleshocks that inevitably you will fail enough to make it impactful. Infernus marines basically have the exact same issue as reivers, no AP on their main weapons and a useless battleshock rule that at best will stop someone using a strat one time if you are lucky. Like why can't reivers at least have AP1 on their knives? You are telling me a super soldier who has mastered the art of war can't find weaknesses in enemy armour plates with a big old combat knife to get through armour more consistently. Then there is lots of other stuff like bolt rifles, heavy bolters, auto-cannons etc. all AP1 that basically lose that because everything gets cover. Bolters consistently are too crap, in whatever version and this makes most standard non-special weapon marines units also crap. Standard marine AP is just too low across so many weapons, pretty much every combat weapon, power fist, power swords etc. are max AP2, then so much of the shooting is AP1 or AP0, even like lascannons are only AP3 so with cover go down to AP2 and then AP1 with AOC equivalents (which now every faction pretty much gets when it was originally a space marine thing). Even the best anti-tank weapons on the lancer and executioner only have AP4, when you see like AP5 and AP4 ignores cover on other factions.
I've had varying degrees of success with Battleshock, but that's because most of the opponents I face aren't Space Marine forces. Not that I won't play against Space Marines, it's just that a lot of them find Space Marines boring to play and to fight against. My daemons have gotten the most use out of battleshock because whatever unit they don't outright kill usually gets hit with the mortal wounds from failing and get wiped. My chaos knights have not had it come into effect much simply because everything is usually dead before battleshock can happen. My Dread Talons detachment has done wonderfully with their battleshock shenanigans, though. Stratagems have been used efficiently, and I make sure that I'm trying to battleshock what is important (so point-holders and anyone who I know my opponent wants to use a stratagem on)
reivers are such a cool looking unit is a darn shame they never had a day in the sun. GW should just give em ap-2 knives on the charge.. make up an excuse why it happens and they'd at least have some teeth
The simplest fix is easy. Make the unit they charged have to take an immediate Battle Shock test at a minus 1 Leadership as they are now. Make the results last until the enemy unit's Fight Phase so it has an impact on objectives. Also because the enemy unit is battle shocked the Reivers get AP-1 with exploding 6's on charge. That makes them excellent shock troop.
I have an old DA army. So I use tactical squads, 2 dreadnoughts and the rest are all Terminators. Each dreadnought with a tactical to secure cercles, termi deep strike to take in the fight. It's been working for me
I, Cato Sicarius may have some applications in a Vanguard detachment where I can move onto an objective to sticky it, and then when something moves near to contest it, scuttle move away behind a wall. Then CentDevs or other units can open up on that enemy unit. Then repeat. (Haven't tried this, it's just a theory. And a LT with Combi-Weapon can probably do it better)
My boxnought is just blessed apparently. It keeps rolling super high with its multimelta and even punched apart a land raider. Its main problem is only having 8 wounds, when everything else has 12. A storm speeder is almost more able to take damage than a boxnought is with so few wounds
While I agree with everything you mentioned, I WILL argue in defense of using the non-primaris Dreadnought - my main marines army is the Space Wolves, and having access to up to three Helfrost Canons is pretty good. Sure it doesn't have as much range or strength as the lascannon option. But I personally prefer having a flat 5 damage than needing to roll for between 2-7. Plus it also works as a psuedo flamer as well, meaning that I can stick with the storm bolter to target infantry when I have a light or medium vehicle within firing range of the main weapon
I think rievers might be good if they made their main rule that every time they kill a model in melee the unit must make a battle shock test and if it tries to fall back it must make a desperate escape.
It's really funny that Reivers would probably be potentially pretty good in Horus Heresy - if they were a cheap Troops unit with Fear (and maybe Line, and maybe Support Squards), because Leadership actually matters a lot in that system for Pinning and combat resolution.
Easy steps to fix Reivers: - swap Precision on their carabines for Rapid Fire 2 - allow them to take carabines with their Combat Blades - Battleshock should cause -1 to hit OR - give all their weapons AP1 Precision should be for Infiltrators and their MARKSMAN CARABINES Overall Phobos units need weapon options for their commanders and sergeants. If not, use Reivers as Assault Intercessors and Intercessors. Lieutenant - Should have acces to at lest Power Weapon (all Phobos characters shoud) as for now, I just use him as phobos Lieutenant.
Reivers have really been done dirty. They aught to make the prospect of battleshock an immersively scary experience for the opponent, like handing out mortal wounds to units that fail battleshock and are engaged with Reivers, as theyre cutting them down in a brutal fashion.
The Hammerfall Bunker could be a dedicated transport able to have 5 phobos or tacticus inside, still not able to move and deep strike. You could chuck it some firing deck also.
@@Karth557I do exactly the same thing, followed by Centurions deep-striking in turn 2 with the ability from Ventris. It is a bit annoying how, in order to make my super-aggressive infantry list work, I have to run it in the "stealth" detachment, but I've been having good results with it thus far
a lot of these issues could be rectified by lessening the points - you dont always need heavy hitting units - but if you can use something with better stats for similar points cost - you run into redundant units...just lower points so it enables free points to add an extra captain/lieutenant or extra squad etc all of us get to our max points and think 'if only i could just add that one guy or squad extra' spacemarines often feel like they are spread thin on the battlefield, compared to other factions now. For me I feel like I need utility units to just move around, not necessarily causing damage, but just being a distraction
Fortifications in general have so much potential! How would you feel about some special restrictive deep strike type rules for certain fortifications? Maybe like can’t be set up within 15” of enemies or something. And costs CP to use. Idk I would love to see some of them actually get used!
I feel like the Ancient is less of a great unit but good psychological warfare for your enemy as he just stands there on an objective being badass with your company flag on the battlefield
That Titans Terrain is such a fucking scam pricing wise. Gamemat sells perfect Resin terrain you can use for casual or competitive games for like 150 and its actually sturdy and 'pre-painted'
I've seen some interesting rosters with 3x tactical squad split into 6 for table control, anti-deepstrike, harassing / melee locking fragile units, etc.
havnt finsihed the video yet but here are my thoughts on rievers. make them movement focused. can come out of reserves on turn 2 as well as deepstrike, have them be able to do their full movements out of deep strike while also letting them advance and charge. somthing like this or other movement type things but i like the idea of them coming out of the bushes to bum rush a enemy. the ancient should give a feel no pain and oc increase, those men surrounding him on the hill surrouneded by enemmies are so inspired they dont even notice their wounds
Can GW please just make tournament play a separate set of rules and just sack off the meta-chasing nonsense, take it back to a rule of cool game and away from incentivising competition-at-all-cost and constantly changing rules. What is good in game should be less important than what is cool and enjoyable to build and hobby. Have those rules free to access for all, static over an edition bar the odd errata, and just accept that it will never be perfectly balanced. Then have paid, changing competitive rules for the neckbeards who give toss about tournament play and want to optimise around chasing a shifting meta. Most people don't want that.
Reivers can actually be really useful in champions of Russ due to saga of majesty Take them and a lieutenant In phobos armour with the pelt of the balewolf enhancement and you have a unit that deepstrikes moves d6 inches after shooting then charges onto you're opponents home objective If you make the charge they then need to make 2 battleshock tests 1 from the reivers ability and one from pelt of the balewolf at -1 from the reivers other ability If they fail one you get youre opponents home objective and a army wide +1 objective control from saga of majesty for being on you're opponents home objective
The only time I tried Desolation Squad after nerfs is in Impulsor and only because I don't have Whirlwind. But 280 pts for a unit without rules is a lot to ask. In the end Indirect Fire did almost nothing and one positive thing was nice Superkrak damage, but totally not worth 280 pts.
I wish they made ancients a real threat. Master crafted wargear, +1 hit and 6+ FNP for the squad or something. I’ll gladly pay more points for him, just make him cooler than ‘+1 OC’.
My dumb idea: give Reivers melta bombs. Currently there's no good Phobos anti-Armor, so give Reivers short-range weapons with high damage and the Anti-Vehicle keyword, maybe even restrict them to only targeting vehicles, and you've got a unit that can drop in and destroy big units and fortifications.
Worst in which way? Stats? Points? Rules? Bloat? Appearance? Lore? SM units have so many different issues. They are all over the place and nowhere at the same time. Usually outdone by another unit in another codex most of the time.
honourable mention: Apothecary in Boarding Patrol. Guy loses both his special rules, so he's just a guy with a pistol for 50 points. GW really doesn't know what they're doing with Marines this edition.
GW really doesn't know what they are doing with Boarding Patrol as well. My personal favourite: Daemons of Khorne faction rule. All of their ranged weapons get Ignore Cover. The entire roster has access to one (!) ranged weapon (on the Gore Hound). And yes, its a flamer and already has Ignore Cover.
I have always been irritated at GW for these "allowed/don't include" units in the codex. I mean, how hard would it have been to make these at least usable? It's somewhere between laziness and trying to make their design job easier by exclusion.
Interesting reaver tactic I came across, put a phobos lieutenant with them, deep strike with grav chutes, use lieutenant's move shoot move to get easy charge on a back field objective, that's full of chaff which reivers can kill. but it's niche and not versatile.
TLDR; a lot of changes would be nice. XXD Reivers maybe should be as cheap as scouts since they don't do anything fantastic if GW will never give them AP for any of their weapons. heck i would like to see the grapple gun have some lethal utility and not just movement. like a single anti-infantry 4+ with maybe -1 or -2 AP. I dunno. Reiver LT is silly and really, between him and the Phobos LT with Combi-Weapon? the LT Reiver should have the Lone Operative ability. Reiver LT should have scout or infiltrate if the unit can't DS for modelling reasons. Hammerfall bunker? just give it deep strike and it will serve as a static distraction carnifex i think. especially if you drop them in the middle of the board to make cover or absorb shots. No comment on the classic Dread since they will Legends soon. RIP. Ancient... hmm i know GW is dialing back on aura abilities but having Aura abilities on an Ancient makes more sense since units can see it's a standard banner. maybe aura OC increase and aura +1 atk or +1 BS for units within 6 inches of the Tacticus Ancient. No comment on flyers because i doubt i will ever use one or have yet to play against one. Desolation Squads could be interesting. They're essentially Space Marine Dark Reapers. Imo maybe it would be better if the Desolation squad used Frag Launchers that can fire Frag or Krak grenades like those frag launchers mounted on Primaris Vehicles. the problem with the storm speeder is that imo they're redundant. enough of the space marine arsenal does what they do but better. Firestrike servo-turret could use deepstrike making them a fascinating unit to combo with eliminators. Tactical Squads should have combat squad baked in (again) instead of bringing them as a 10man and having to split them on the board. also lore wise making them cheaper veterans would be good for the player base but maybe bad for GW's bottom line? XXD Invictor Warsuit could use a small point's drop. my opinion. could be hot garbage. XXD Invader ATV. . . i've got nothing, the unit is super mid for what it can do at that point level. I know attaching ATVs to Outriders is basically buffing the Outriders but buffing the ATV itself? i don't know where you can go except to roll back the keyword change and have Apothecaries REZ ATVs again. XXD got nothing for the last 2.
Ancient in Sword Brethren is cool. 5 attacks at WS2+, benefitting from the vow and +1 damage ability while giving them OC2. He's 20 points more than a cost per model Sword Bro but his high number of attacks at better WS is slightly more efficient per points than an extra bro, and while he is slightly less durable per point he becomes way more durable if he's on an objective and he can tank a fair amount of damage to help a more killy character survive if the squad is wiped.
desolation squad: too many dices to throw (multiple dices to throw for the number of attacks for a unit of 5+ is ok only for flamethrowes that hits automaticlly) desolation have d3 attack rolls plus to hit rolls plus to wound rolls (too many imho) plus superkraks it's so boring for the other player
Lol, said the tactical squad is overlooked but it's one of the most popular boxes sold 🤷♂️, you know alot of people who play 40k are not bothered by what the competitive scene are running because we understand theres no skill or competitiveness when random dice rolls are involved
I use ATV's to hide, skirt around terrian and shoot at a high value target while blocking charge paths to objective. So far they have been low on damage but buy me turns in securing objective and delaying my opponent. In the groups i play in they have been dubbed the cuck carts.
desolation marines are just tragic ,, with the changes to indirect now anyway .. they should just drop them back down to something like 135 points reveirs swap the leadership rubbish to a -1 to hit aura debuff within 12" instead they can be a throwaway unit then to do one task for a turn dreadnought needs its 2nd shot on las canon put back and as you say drop it to like 115 points be a fair start for it ..
all of those are true, I would add to the list: sternguard veterans , devastators, most of the drednoughts and all terminators (we re talking about generic/codex SM - no divergent chapters). In competitve games, most of SM units are crap - whatever you chose other armies have waaay beter equvalents, for better point cost. That is why SM have the worst win ratio in this game.
>That is why SM have the worst win ratio in this game. .. No, it's because competitive players are always going to run Angels / Wolves since there's 0 downside. I guarantee experienced players could do perfectly fine with vanilla Gladius marines but why would they?
add in SM also have the biggest number of players using them and as we know the bulk of gamers are useless at rules / tactics / getting most from their army , as newer players / inexperienced always gravitate toward for marines initially /. so the ratio is dragged down alot as well .. but agree SM are really weird currently when the divergent ones are superior ... they need to rework oath for vanilla marines only I guess .. plus I would remove the divergent chapters from being able to run vanilla marines detachments . make people really think hard on its value ... though could end uo with the dark angel problem where gladius is still the best way to run them lol as own datachments are not so good .. Think it comes down to whether you play casually match play or looking to play competitive seriously ......
It's hard to find a worse Character leader than the Reiver Lt. He's just bad and makes the unit less useful because of his lack of matching options. His gun is, somehow, worse than the standard Special Issue Bolt Pistol. It's just a really, really, really bad character that I wouldn't take even for free in an army.
The talk about 'marines are weak' is nonsense: Subfaction are just naturally stronger by design, so no top player will not pick a subfaction. If John Lennon decided to play singles with Calgar, he'd lose a little power vs his dark angels list, but he'd still do as well as, say, a death guard list does
I'm sorry but this is pure copium lmao. You could use this to explain literally any poor scoring faction's win rates. You're adding nothing to the conversation.
