Are we going back to PHP with fullstack JavaScript? 

I mean, it's been pretty much only react for like 8-9 years. Iterations of PHP frameworks are pretty much the same, there is always something new that's going on and I think always learning is a trait that developers should have. I get the frustration, but ultimately you don't need to "learn every new framework", but instead "learn programming" and "learn basic principles" as you may quickly discover that most of "new frameworks" use the same exact ideas with slightly different taste to it and an additional plot

I've always felt that the least amount of javascript to get the job done, was the best amount of javascript 😉

But the thing is next js is the new php and it’s gonna dominate the web development next 20 years , so if you wanna make money then take your sit 😂

i thought i was the only one...the only thing is you may not be able to get Jobs

I know php, jquery bootstrap, but all these dev jobs started requesting for more and then I reached a point and also said fuck it

Man, you said it right!! Web development has been over-engineered!!

Am happy everyone is seeing php was simple, JavaScript ought to simpler since backend js came after PHP but instead it became too complicated. And funny enough people take it's complexity as a positive thing and look down on the simplicity of PHP. I first started with node but once I learned PHP, it was hard to think of building apps with node because I had less headaches.

Web development got overcomplicated simply because programmers are not designers. Most programmers will do anything in their power to produce something quick before actually trying to develop something from scratch, specially if there's graphic design involved, which is what the web is mostly, if not all, made of.

@@CristianKirk I can't argue with the graphic design part. also, I know that using known frameworks make it easy for programmers to catch up on other's projects in a short period of time. but, I think these frameworks are getting bigger and heavier overtime for acceptable reasons (fixing vulnerabilities, adding new features, keeping backward compatibility), this can be an overkill for small and maybe medium websites/apps which in return will drive some programmers to develop their own simplified frameworks so that will not start from scratch in future projects Finally, I'm not totally against these new dev complexity rather than being wise using it. Thanks all for your feedbacks

The same thing over complicated the backend development by turning every system into microservices. Most "websites" don't need to be thick client SPA . It is the same old skilled incompetence issues in human history. “If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.” - Abraham Maslow

Haha same. Good old lamp stack

And i thought am a weird developer for using this stack 😅

My brutha. Except I used mysql mostly.

Are you using PHP natively? Or use some framework?

like me bro, i use Javascript for ajax and some necessary events

Symfony > Laravel

@@hermes6910 No

Can we combine php with react or is it an overkill ??

@@anonymouscitizen4235 For most use cases (especially on its own), React is just overenginering your project. But there's nothing wrong with using it with php.

​@@anonymouscitizen4235 ofc , try laravel with ineritia and react

How dare you use reason! Bah!

totally agree, i migrated applications made with php 5.3 to 8.2 with very low effort

Agree! I am old. I want stability. I don't have time experimenting some code tagged as canary or flavor of the minute framework.

PHP is the OG web language. All the others are just trends that will come and go. The ones that will forever persist are PHP and Ruby on Rails

​@@richieonganda3267 I wouldn't call other languages trends, but I am confident PHP is here to stay.

@@richieonganda3267I hope it was a joke. Backend built with javashit or php is not backend.

You're talking about legacy system

​@tsolanoff it's OK... everyone starts a a fanboy, emotions all over the place, protecting the tools that you happen to know. In a decade or two, you'll relax.

Turbo C++ for me. I remember when JavaScript first came out and everyone was confused and thought they needed Java applets. What what? And it went from Perl CGI scripts which got owned all the time to PHP and everything started to improve slowly from there, and it's still just fine. PHP 8 is awesome and so is Laravel. If you must JavaScript, try Vue first or even htmx and some plain JS, don't overcomplicate it to start with.

Yes, PHP certainly has better tooling (both built-in and 3rd party) for working with relational databases.

Yes you can do a lot with livewire but at some point you will need alpine js.

Livewire is amazing, but I don't like to think of it as running client side. More like it allows you to bind back end properties and functions to front end objects and events. To me it still keeps a good cognitive separation between what runs on server and what runs on client.

The TALL stack is really good to work with​@@jmon24ify

​@@kaf83yes Livewire acts more of like an api rather than for interactivity But combining it with alpine makes things so good

until Laravel came out

​@@diegoc3749 Have you tried Symfony, on a complex API, not the typical CRUD API?

Symfony is a good framework. much better than Laravel. I wish people would stop being sucked into using Laravel

Laravel actually uses many Symfony components under the hood. There are many developers who eventually migrate from Laravel to Symfony, but it's rarely the other way around. Laravel is more popular because it's easier to learn, but at some point senior developers need something more mature and robust and start looking at Symfony. Laravel is extremely popular because it has great marketing and learning materials, Symfony being a bit more complex to master, but there is a reason why most PHP projects like CMS, ecommerce, etc. use Symfony as their core or many of its modules for functionality @@diegoc3749

​@@RichardCatto what are the advantages?

Nice to meet you here, too!

Skill issue?

@@gamerneversleep4200 right, that explains why Rails is dead, ppl lacked skills

@@danfg7215 Rails isn't dead, and not only is faster than in previous versions but getting really important new additions like Hotwire so not only you don't need a JS framework to provide interactivity, but you can build from web to iOS/Android apps using the same tools. Also the future for Rails 8 is becoming promising with new features for security and deployment, the latter with Kamal. But nothing of the above should be understood as against PHP, in fact is a really good thing than we are now moving towards a separation and simplification of full stack development, while at the same time the major frameworks (Laravel, Rails, Django, Phoenix, etc) are not only getting better/faster but also providing new features.

If rails is dead, laravel is equally dead.

Django > *

on frontend you should go for react and for backend go for nodejs express (node framework) or nest(same nodejs framwork)

no next, build your project and see what's missing, on that basis you find out where to go next.

Build something. That's the most important part of learning. Build something entirely by yourself and don't go with any tutorials or copilot.

@@_DATA_EXPUNGED_ the reason is, you encounter problems that are relevant to what you build and if you solve them the solution will stick. Solutions to irrelevant problems do not stick ... most of the time.

As long as your web app/website works.. the end user does not really care what is working in the backend.

I am so happy to know you've succeed ran your SaaS with PHP. While me, as a PHP dev still confuse what stack should I choose to build the SaaS. Because there are so many thoughts to not make PHP to develop SaaS. I feel excited!

He actually did; in fact it was one of his first courses around 8 years ago. But he took it down, probably because it became outdated.

Agreed. There are so many Laravel jobs in my area.

Agreed, I dove straight into Laravel without any prior coding experience. I simply wanted to build something for the company I was working for at the time. Oh boy, did it introduce me to many concepts I wouldn't have been aware of if I had just learned PHP first. Now, I can understand almost any framework since most share similarities once I've spent a few days reading the language syntax. The documentation is excellent, the ecosystem offers almost anything anyone can imagine to build, and the community around it is pretty strong. I use it as an API with React or Next.js for the frontend

I moved from Laravel to nestjs+typescript. If you read their docs you'll understand how its easy to follow clean architecture there, do microservice setups etc.

​@@realVvDI have a friend who badly wants a job to support his family

Yes, but what if JavaScript runs on the server?

Do you know Remix or NextJS?

What about Inertia (SSR) and its impact on SEО?

@@todormarkov2860 with livewire you don't need inertia for SEO. It worked perfectly fine

Fuck next js .

Very true and i use Linux Desktop base OS. Too much freedom can turn into messy world.

@@jediampm fact

also unix philosophy of doing one small thing good we see in package management, where there are too many dependencies which is security risk and inability to do leftpad by yourself

As a Linux user I couldn't agree more.

I have been using codeIgniter for some 20+ years, it is fast as a shark, no chenges needed.

Amazing ! Which framework of PHP do you recommend to learn first ? I am frontend developer with JS/React/TS.

@@juanortegaa6916go doesn’t need the shit like php.

Try t3 stack

Every modern language has the same toolkit in the standard library.

Thank you so much!

Can you elaborate more?

It's the frontend web devs. Since they start right away with a frontend frameworks and don't experiment outside of web dev.

What do you expect lol, most entry/junior web developers (here) are all coming from modern frontend frameworks.

True!!!

Arrogance. Too much of it in the tech world

Yes, I am!

@@maximilian-schwarzmueller huh, great!)

Huh? What is PHP hosting? I just use a VPS, price is only related to resources available - around 7 Eur should be enough for a small project with a cheap provider.

​@@robertsandiford6223exactly, not sure what they're talking about, it costs me the exact same whether I'm using PHP or Javascript

@@robertsandiford6223 He talks about shared hosting. Shared hosting costs are significantly cheaper than VPS.

Most simple web hosting will come with PHP support. You can get that for 1-2€/month.

@@Ascarion47 You mean a cPanel account? I have cPanel hosting and I run Node.JS on it too. Only takes a minute to install.

crazy enough there are people out there still opposing PHP thinking it works the same as it did back then.

it must work without JS, you do not even know how many people just turn JS off when browsing the web. PHP first, then add some JS if you need it, but make sure, the whole thing works on a browser that cancels any JS.

@@swojnowski453The number of people who turn off JS is absolutely tiny. You’d have to be a developer to even understand what that means. And then any developer toggling that setting would surely understand that they’re doing so with extremely high likelihood that various parts of virtually any page they visit will cease to work.

@@bass-tones I have been a web developer for the last 28 years. I'm running multiple of my own systems. The principle is : if it does not work without JS, it is crap. You do not even know how many people turn JS just to hack websites and do it successfully. Relying on JS is single worst mistake you can do in web dev.

@@swojnowski453 Your view is reflective of a tiny and shrinking subset of the community. I’m not going to argue that _some_ simple sites should maintain fallbacks when JS is not available. But a huge percentage of the web today is, by design, too interactive to work with JS off. Good luck creating something like Google Docs, for example, without JS. Or even for myself, just last week I was working on a live scoring system that needed Web Sockets to work in any capacity. There is no possible fallback for a tool like this. Your point about hacking sites with JS off seems to be an argument against what you’re saying as well. You’re able to “hack” sites by turning JS off because those sites _tried_ to offer non-JS fallbacks and did it extremely poorly (likely they did not apply input validation correctly). Except you obviously can’t do what you’re describing if the site is _fully_ dependent on JS. How are you going to “hack” a site by turning off JS if nothing on the page even loads because the site assumes the user must have JS? And again, what you’re describing is something that only a tiny subset of developers would bother to do. The average user A) has no idea what JS is, and B) would not even have the thought to turn it off. I don’t even think you _can_ turn it off on most mobile browsers, and on desktop turning it off is an “advanced” feature that 99.9% of users will rightfully never use. Times have changed since 2000…

JS/TS still have imports, it's all the same crap.

I use Mamp right now.

ha ha, used to? I have been doing it for 28 years, it is been a gold mine, and still is, in fact it is better than ever has been ...

Yep, that's true! Played around a bit with it + liked it quite a lot.

Adonisjs is the best nodejs backend framework 🙌🙌

So true.

I just started with PHP and yeah I am really enjoying it. Already build a full login and registration system

Sad today's world hate simple straight forward stuff like PHP. Or else if we love simplicity why wouldn't we just stick to 2 genders but know we like 1100 gender and counting. Gender ideology must have inspired js frameworks

I was thinking of trying Inertia, but it seems to be a problem with SSR...

@@todormarkov2860 Problem of what sort? Check out the doc for the SSR.

@@todormarkov2860It supports SSR