that moment when you’re incapable of experiencing empathy yourself, and then extrapolate that onto everybody else so that when they claim that they DO feel empathy, you assume they must be lying D:
@@moodyrick8503 Do.... do you need them to prove that light illuminates things, too, or are you actually going to expire on the hill that a generalization is actually fully accurate, including the one that said they are not? C'mon.... stop boomering.
How they think argument works: "God is real, debate me." OK can you please prove that? "You are woke and dumb" Uh... okaaay? Yes I am woke, but that doesn't answer the question. "You are woke and dumb" I guess you won't answer the question then. "Yay I won the argument!"
They somehow believe that being willing to be rational, and honest, at any point about their faith, is tantamount to admitting that they don't have good reasons to believe what they do. I wonder why they would feel that way...
sand makes bricks, homes, mortar, cement and can be used to hone, polish and sharpen things. The faith we're talking about is more like an elevator fart.
@@silverback3382 That's cute. Like a 4-year old wearing spaghetti as a hat, shitting his pants while eating glue with a spoon. Did you want to try a little harder, or is "meaningless, empty platitudes" your only schtick? Not a good look
Mike is a social media personality who speaks to his Bible crowd. There is no room for critical thinking in Mikes world. Just ancient Hebrew thinking followed by a huge grin.
The problem is to become smart takes even more work... And as we all know the time it takes for an Atheist to explain something exceeds the attention span of a cultist.
@@louseveryann2181 you think that if you're an atheist means you will instantly understand everything that's told to you? lol your reply just proved my point. Smh
It appears that he questions the authenticity of their faith at that time. In other words, "Yes, you professed belief, but you were not genuine Christians."
Yes, the moment they realize they're losing the argument is when they resort to ad hominem attacks and insults. It's the same thing with Trump supporters.
He (caller) doesn't even know the meaning of the word. Nobody who uses it as a pejorative ever does. I can't even tell which brainrot is fueling which, at this point. I'd bet the core is the political conservatism. The religion is the "I am special because..." type of conspiracy theories these types use to put themselves in some type of "Holy Army" category. Just saying that it's clear this dude has bigger problems than religion that need to be addressed.
Woke is one of these words that was stuffed with all this other stuff that literally had nothing do with it. It was suppose to be about the black community originally. Its very interesting to see how that word now represents everything about left wing, atheism, democrats etc. Its so stupid.
i live in a place were we have absolutely not a single transgender. around, in a population of 30k, not one. we have atheists, i am one of them, with no transgender temptation, and i can bet, the first transgender will be a religious. awareness is always anti-religion
@@Arminius420 if Finn doesn't live in the US and hasn't got a good grip of how it is used in the US, *woke* probably represents something very different to him than what you might think as words can take on a different life in different places (as *woke* did in Germany)
Finn sounds like a young and rather poorly educated believer who seems to think that he possesses some extremely interesting information that we will really want to hear. He doesn’t grasp that we’ve heard a thousand believer bro types speak about the same things and share the same “arguments.” His combination of arrogance with ignorance is laughable - for example his “belief” that “Matthew” was written by “Matthew.” The claim is ludicrous as that name was assigned years later and became a convention in the Middle Ages. It’s not like there is a signed text saying “I Matthew the apostle wrote this text okay.” Finn probably thinks the Bible poofed into existence one day. Maybe he doesn’t know that his Bible was largely assembled by the evil Catholics he doesn’t consider “true Christians”?” Lmfao
@@1989pacmaniac yeah i did miss that, and "suggest" is a much fairer term to use here. trans hate is being thrown around like candy on hellowheen. not a fan of that since it deprives it of its meaning and shields actual trans haters. which he very well might be if he thinks that´s what "we" think. he seems uninformed enough to make that at least probable.
@@symmetrie_bruch While it may not be 100% accurate to what they mean, I just choose to read such comments of that type as equalling "trans intolerance," which is close enough here. But you're right, if we're not careful with our word choices, it can start to lose its efficacy. Though, If one is inclusive of trans people, I don't think they would be asking the question the caller asked.
I think this guy is an idiot troll that thinks if he gets Matt to hang up on him that he "wins", especially when he said "you're one of those wokies" whatever the fuck that means, after claiming to have no idea who Matt is.
@@nitehawk86 that was really funny. I think dude was used to being a bully but also lacking introspection. Matt being a dick made him actually think for a second and he realized that he was being dishonest, paused and moved on. Sounded a lot like cognitive dissonance pain to me. " Me the bad guy!? Oh maybe :( so anyways can we talk about something else :'(."
1400? There's over 45,000 "official" denominations. (Honestly, I'd say there are a couple billion, because every christian has subtly different beliefs.)
I'd never even heard of it and checked....'Let's presume the most foundational aspect of my argument is true'. That's literally willing suspension of disbelief aka fiction and fantasy. Gets knocked down on 'I don't have proof the holy spirit is talking through him' but proceeds to go for 'but god def exists 100%' gold. What a waste of an education.
@patriklindholm7576 Holy Spirit ... how I feel, even though feelings are high inaccurate or are aboriginal religions correct when they go into a trance for their deity?
Ehrman no longer thinks the empty tomb is likely. He thinks the most likely burial of Jesus was in a mass grave, like the vast majority of Roman crucifixion victims. That’s the kryptonite question for apologetics: “What most likely happened?” Instead, they go with “what my fellow religious believers is not completely impossible, so let’s go ahead and believe. Whew, that was a close one.”
The appeal to authority logical fallacy with an argument based on no facts or evidence at all is a bad place to start. The proper place to start is did that stereotypical son of god savior character who shares similar attributes with at least 15 other religions even exist at all, or is it just a common fictional character type in typical myth making.
@@jimbob3030 that's not an argument that tends to lead anywhere useful. The fact that the archetype exists (and existed back then) makes it more likely that someone living as a traveling preacher at the time would play into those tropes, either consciously to improve a "scam" or unconsciously while sharing genuine belief, because that's what they expect someone in their position to do. It's not possible to be particularly sure about the existence of a low status person from this far back in history, and ultimately it doesn't matter. What does matter is were the magical events described carried out by Jesus, or any other person or collection of people? If it turned out Jesus was actually an amalgam of 20 different preachers over a period of 100 years, but the stories were all true in that context, the events would still serve as strong support for the Christian God. If we could prove that Jesus did exist, but not that he was magic then that doesn't move the needle on how likely God is to exist. The best argument I think is that the events described appear to be impossible, can anyone demonstrate that they are possible? If not, it would be unreasonable to believe that they happened as described.
@@TestTestGo "It's not possible to be particularly sure about the existence of a low status person from this far back in history, " It is when you learn it was never about a person that existed long ago but instead is about something you can still witness happening right over your head at night. There is one video in my playlists that covers this topic and only one which will show you what the stories like his were actually about. Taken literally these stories make no sense, understood as allegory that describes something else everyone could see play out in the night sky they finally do.
16:49 The caller wants Ehrman to school Matt about the empty tomb. The caller is ignorant of the fact that Ehrman has not believe that we know where the tomb is or that Jesus was buried in a tomb for at least 10 years. He has a blog post on his website right now, dated April 4, 2014, where he mentions this explicitly. The caller needs to do better research, but I am not convinced he will since he set he is a presup.
Kinda weird how the guy saying “you built your house on sand” spends the first half of the conversation conceding points that he feels strongly about but can’t back up at all.
When I was raised Catholic the three important virtues pounded into my brain by the nuns were faith, hope and charity. I understand the charity part but as a 76 year old skeptic, faith and hope cannot compete against testable, reliable facts.
Generally speaking, I stop talking with someone when its made clear that they are a presuppositionalist, its pointless trying to have a productive conversation someone who presupposes the answer to all questions absent any facts, and dishonestly tries to create arguments to fit their preconceived beliefs.
18:42 Everyone who's ever interacted with a small child suddenly realizing they're wrong will recognize this tone and forced laugh paired with a sudden change of subject
The sad thing is that these people are not even serious about what they claim to believe. If they really though this was the truth, they wouldn't dare be snarky about it.
This 100%. When I ask a christian about a bible verse and they reply with "i'm not familiar with that one" it blows my friggin' mind. If I ACTUALLY THOUGHT my "eternal soul" was dependent on how devout my belief was I would have memorized the entire bible front to back decades ago.
@@Lord.1337-7 They don't really believe it or follow it in like damn near any way. That's why god magically happens to agree with all their opinion regardless of what the bible says lol.
@@theboombody Who said it was limited? I would argue that lack of seriousness and dishonesty are prerequisites for religious apologists. Especially if they’re American and Christian
@@waynedexter Depends on how far they want to go. If they want to prove evolution is not scientifically valid, they're going to have a tough time. If they just want to shed light illuminating that secularism MAY not be the path to a complete utopia, they may have a point. But you're right. Most try to argue WAY too much and that makes it tough.
Well, that's a naive way to look at it. Any group has fringe wings that carries the thought too far. There are definitely some people who make " Woke" look stupid.
@@Olyfrun if someone starts whinging about "wokeness" they already aren't being civil. I've never heard it used by someone who didn't turn out to just be a bigot
I had the opposite de-conversion from what this guys premise of the “hardened heart” is. I took on decades of cognitive dissonance because of my unwillingness to believe that I might be wrong about God and faith and what I was taught. It was only when I was finally willing to accept whatever the truth was, regardless of the consequences, that I was finally able to understand and accept modern science and human history.
Maybe there's a better method than science? But we can't shouldn't believe in a guess. Matt doesn't believe he might be wrong. Rather he doesn't have a belief in claimed God(s). He's often said: I finally checked the reason why I believed wasn't warranted, thus he stopped believing.
A wise man COULD build a solid house on sand, provided he drives pilings deep into the sand below the layer that shifts and moves with the tidal forces (assuming it is built on the shore of an ocean with tides). I've vacationed in some amazing places built on the sand so close to the ocean that the tides come in under the place I stayed in. The more you know 🌠😆
@@denverarnold6210 Guess you didn't drive your pilings deep enough 😆🤣 Good lesson for the next attempt as long as the first failure was taken as a learning experience... amirite?
Finn was incredibly typical of the kind of dishonest Christians I encounter essentially every day in online debate. On a happier note, I love seeing David Fitzgerald's cats! They seem incredibly happy in his care.
He accuses David of using the argument from authority fallacy. He is using Mike Winger (a non-specialist in everything) as authority in bible translations. Fascinating.
I've always found it funny that some christians think something that is empty is a good reason to believe something. Pretty much sums up their whole religion
There's a good point i heard recently. If Jesus' appearance were known in the beginning why would there be any empty tomb story. Ever hear of an empty tomb of Elvis? The empty tomb must have been the only evidence of the resurrection for a while for such a story to take hold.
The history of the Martyrs, the Relic hunters, and the connection between cities, and the tourist trade of the early pilgrims is a fascinating way to look at Christianity. The Romans also (and I am sure other people) went from temple to temple to pray, and they spent money in those towns (food and lodgings) After the Romans, Christianity was a cash cow for towns who could state they had the bones of a saint, or the foreskin of Jesus.
Some believers are malicious. This caller was overconfident, prejudiced, dishonest about where he lived, and ran away like a little coward. This person is definitely someone to avoid and definitely not interesting to talk to.
I agree on all points but one. What did i miss that makes you think Finn was dishonest about where he lives? I wished i could say "yeah, he's not one of us", but we don't all sound like ww2 caricatures. I know lots of Christians who look to English speaking apologists, in hopes of defending their faith, with AI translation ready to compensate for any provincial dud's ineptitude.
@@bazingaburg8264 Doesn't sound like he has a German accent to me. So, unless he is an American who moved to Germany I think he his lying about where he is from. I don't have the best reference since I am from the U.S., however 1.) that accent sounds far more american than british or any other type of english accent to me and 2) I took German in high school where we had kids from Germany come visit us for a week and his accent sounds nothing like theirs.
I'd say he is an American and in a US military base in Germany. I'm not German, I'm from Europe and speak German. He really does not have an accent at all. I mean, most of us Europeans speak English with an US accents (because most of the things we see on TV are american), but you can usually hear at least a little bit of an accent unless it is a native speaker.
@@Kenvie2000it’s just listing where they’re calling from, not their country of origin. It’s actually really strange that you think someone can’t be calling from a place unless they have that accent 😅
@@AvaEFF It is certainly not a common thing for Americans to move to Germany. It isn't very easy to try to learn German in the U.S. so it would be a weird place to move. Is it impossible? No. Also thanks for the put down. Hope you have a good day.
It's truly miraculous that the 'holy spirit' happens to align with the particular prejudices of every person that claims to experience it, and those prejudices often conflict.
I always find it incredible that people use ‘woke’ as a bad word, when it means to wake up from a dream to reality. To suddenly realize a truth. Finn can spend his life seeing his life through a dream, seeing things and situations that are only a warped shadow of reality. Living a fantasy. I’d rather be awake and see the world for the way it really is.
09:10 _"Well.. we shouldn't go down that line because you're aware of things and I'm intentionally ignorant about as much as possible. Asleep, you might say. Or alternately, anti-Woke"_
I was raised going to a Southern Baptist College but in my fantasy inspired mind, no way could the Catholics build such amazing buildings and other art if they weren't divinely inspired and as I got older, to imply that non-Catholics didn't read the Bible but other Protestant kinds do, that's ridiculous. Some Protestants do, some Catholics do (but not without believer goggles on) but most of both categories do NOT. However, if a person of faith does read it critically, it falls apart. As it's said, the road to atheism is lined with Bibles that have been critically read.
When actual arguments fail, the have to resort to attacks, provoking people, playing the victim and declaring victory for claiming to know things they can't.
wow this ending of the conversation with Finn is so similar to many conversations I have with people in the street who assume I need help because I am in a wheelchair, They interrupt me presupposing I need and want help I tell them no, they do not accept, I tell them to go away, they pretend to be nice ( like the "I love you matt" Finn said before hanging up) I tell them they are an arsehole And I probably look like an arse to all bystanders, I hope they take note and not bother me.
I love guys like this guy. If you believe in Christ, then you will find faith in Christ? If I believe in mermaids, I will start to be able to accept the truth for mermaids.
he lied about bart When I was a Christian, of course I thought that was the case. But even when I had become an agnostic I thought it was probably a historical tradition: it’s found in all four Gospels, for example, and the fact that the stories indicate precisely it was *women* who found the tomb did not seem like something Christians would want to make up. (And so, as an agnostic, I had to come up with alternative explanations for why the tomb was empty. But…) I changed my mind. Most of my change came from my investigation of Roman practices of crucifixion. As it turns out, standard policy appears to have been to have left the bodies of corpses on the crosses to decompose, as part of their punishment. Decent burials were not allowed. I go into this matter at length in the book - at greater length than I want to excerpt here. But I can excerpt my new reflections on whether it is conceivable that any Christian story-tellers would invent the tradition that women found the tomb empty.
yes, that is also what Bart stated he believes - that Jesus was left on the cross to decompose, just as every other crucified person. As for "why would Christians invent that women found the empty tomb" Mark 16 sets it up: the women talking to each other that they won't be able to roll away the stone, it's so heavy! thereby trying to pre-empt any critic who might suggest, that men rolled it away - it was those weak women who went there first, surely they couldn't do it, so it must have been angels!
1:06 This is what i always find fascinating about christians, he says "Dave I DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT YOU" then proceeds to say "Are you a former christian" OK, in what universe ... Do you get the answer to knowing about a person by asking if they are a christian ? Christians always do this, Everywhere it's like you make 1 comment a christian their first reply is "So.. Before we go ahead, are you a christian" Right ! so.... If i answer NO, You have a predetermined negative response if i answer YES, You have a predetermined Positive response but if i answer NO, You do not have a predetermined Positive response and if i answer YES, You do not have a predetermined Negative response so basically when a christians asks this questions, they are really asking WHICH RESPONSE DO I NEED TO USE IN THIS SITUATION ? Instead of understanding There is no pre determined response, You just need to bloody listen to the person and learn who they are and take it on face value as that
That was a caller who demonstrates group thought in action. He had every talking point buzzword the right feeds their sheep. "If those pesky facts and logic get in the way, start with woke. Then if that fails quickly pivot to the what is a woman question." The programming these people have been feed would have been a comedy 30 years ago.
When I think of "hardened heart" references in the bible, it's the pharaoh's heart. And why was it hard? Because god hardened it! All so that he could demonstrate his own power, and ability to dole out punishment for the hardened heart, WHICH HE HIMSELF CAUSED! Not really fair is it? But none of this applies to atheism, anyway, bc nonbelief has nothing to do with a "hardened heart". But if it did, the xtians should be blaming their god for that, bc according to their own book, their god is in the business of hardening hearts, apparently.
Finn is making the argument from fantasy land. He doesn’t know how to make an argument and second he doesn’t know the difference between feelings and evidence.
Heartened heart means closed mind. Belief in a supernatural that you never found on your own and requires the denial of obvious scientific facts which is Christianity. Heartened hearts equal closed mind. This dude had zero capacity to be outside his own head.
Given how hopeless it was to get him to answer what should have been a pretty straightforward question regarding theology? They never would have gotten an answer!
@@martinmckee5333 You absolutely know he wouldn't be able to define it, but the humour in him stammering and stuttering, and doing everything he could except answer the question, would be great entertainment. This always throws them and they start tap dancing like crazy.
