Mod: "Why does he need to ask a question, just make an argument" "Zoe": "Let's get it back on the rails > " This is the usual problem with pure political and religious assertions. Any time they're questioned they instead distract into the "rules of debate" rather than just having a fucking discussion like a grown up.
I recently *tried* to have a conversation with a friend (or maybe ex-friend now, since she doesn't answer any of my texts anymore), and she straight up ignored me when I made questions that would require even the slightest amount of critical self-reflection. It's really the only way in which ay dee ole ohjeez like these can survive, if you stop to analyze them they just crumble and collapse.
Jack and his posse are very Dogmatic with their left views. Seems like Jack gets comfort from his echo chamber, and soothes his memories of getting pushed too may times into a High School locker. He's very transparent.
hijacking the biological component is a bridge too far for most of the logically inclined, I would think Sex isn't a "loose collection" of traits or a "spectrum." It's small gametes, large gametes, and intersex individuals. That's it. And intersex is unrelated to the trans issue (which concerns only deluded sexually typical people)
Also most if not all intersex humans are in fact still classified (biologically) as male or female. Yet, I think if the only trans people were intersex then there would be no political debate on the topic at all.
there are only two gamete types. an organism could be both s**es in the same way that pollinating plants have male s** organs and female s** organs. as far as I know humans labeled intersex do not show this, rather they are just members of a single s** whose s** organs did not form properly but that doesn't change that they are either male or female, since males are members of the s** who produce small gametes when functioning properly and females are members of the s** who produce large gametes when functioning properly (in the same way that the heart is the organ that pumps blood when functioning properly, so the fact that some people get born with a hole in their heart that cannot pump blood doesn't mean that they have no heart).
Yes this is true, we just also exhibit sexual dimorphism. There are plenty of animals including other primates where the dimorphism is extremely low or almost nonexistent. We don’t exhibit it to an insane degree (and honesty it’s pretty low compared to most other primates) like some animals but it’s still there.
The insecureness in that Discord call is insane. If someone has the truth, they don't need to fear questions, because they'll have the answers. Plus, talking over Zoe is just straight up condescending, like they need to speak up for Zoe because they can't speak for themselves. That's on top of the other rudeness. Quite shameful.
Its awalys red flag when people asked why are you asking a question. Weather its with andrew wilson or with trans people, its shows you are most intrerest in the conclusion of your argument rather than the demostration of it.
That's because questions are a tool of logical thought as such can be used to test the logic of someone else's worldview and opinions. These people don't like questions because it's hard to answer questions when your worldview and opinions are build on emotion and feelings rather than logic and facts.
Jack is being way too defensive here. He really jumps the gun in order to whiteknight. It isn't a good look. Maybe if Doug got to a point where it was arguable it was trolling I could defend his behavior, but he, and the others, are clearly desperate to shutdown the dialogue prematurely. It's way too aggressive, rude, and a demonstration of his inability to tolerate differing opinions. Doug can be wrong, certainly, but trying to dismiss him so quickly is inexcusable. To be clear, I've been very supportive of Jack in the past, despite his overly-aggressive mannerisms, but he is very clearly being uncharitable and toxic in this dialogue. Merely questioning a persons beliefs in a street epistemology style does not constitute such bad behavior on his part. I would even contend that if it was the same line of questioning for another's religious beliefs Jack would be supportive, but questioning this particular belief structure on this topic hits a nerve with him that isn't rational. I would encourage others, even if you don't agree with your opposing interlocutors, to grant them the principle of charity in debates to accept their viewpoints fairly even if you ultimately cannot agree with them. To denounce them as "trolls" so flippantly only reflects badly upon yourself and stifles meaningful exchanges.
He did a livestream on his channel reviewing your debate & I asked him if he even believes in truth. He doesn't lol he thinks truth is a subjective matter pretty much hahaha. No wonder why people that think like him end up like this.
If there is no absolute criteria, why does he have to make an argument? In other words, if there is no absolute criteria for accepting trans ideology, then there doesn’t need to be absolute criteria for rejecting trans ideology.
It just seems like an extremely unconvincing word salad. As others have noted……just because you claim something doesn’t make something true. You can’t just identify as something and it makes it so.
I wonder if Jack understands he is making new Trump voters and if so how he feels about that. As a side note, why doesn't it get called out as bigoted when you treat an adult trans person like a child needing protection.
Jack and his groupies don't care about changing the outside world nearly as much as their egos being stroked so they would not care if they were making new trump voters.
I think you really needed to deny the troll accusations. But, I'd like to build upon your target question. My observations of the ideology, indeed the question that you're asking, is the core problem. Everyone is attempting to seek validation. As validation justifies what we believe. You and I, Doug, operate on a confirmation based system. One that attempts to gain validation by appealing to things abstract to our beliefs. Hence, we believe, not because of the belief itself, but the things that can be demonstrated about the belief. Whereas gender ideology is an aformation system. The way this seeks validation through the exact opposite way. The belief itself, is the validation. If evidence exists for the claim, then nice, but it's not needed. Afirmation is the philosophy of a broken clock. It's right twice a day, due to chance, and even then it's accidental. Hence why if a person doesn't agree with their beliefs, the immediate action is to operate as if the disagreement is debunking. As a result, the question 'what is a woman' presents a foundational challenge that forces an afirmation system, to become a confirmation based system. In an identical display, this the same issue you have with presuppositional apologists, because gender ideology is a presup position.
"I identify as a discord mod in Jack's room so if I'm talking he needs to be silent" - I'm betting $100 none of them would accept that subjective identification.
How would you have phrased Doug's questions? I don't believe it would have mattered if he declared he was not a troll because they automatically viewed him as one for simply asking these questions.
@@whatwecalllife7034 Indeed, i feel the same. I would have pushed back on that specific accusation. However, i would have reframed the conversation towards the ineffectiveness of affirmation. That being said, there are times where people such as the moderator, simply have no interest in conversation. This mod appears by all intents to be a bully.
lol ... what a bunch of silly bullies. And those people expect respect from others ? Lost case guys, especially when you mention "Sokrates and/or SE- crap" I agree with @sneedmcfeed001 - very religious behavior. Not very nice people imo.
this was hard to listen to. I'm curious how they think as well. Best answer I have found so far is this: Think about what a mother is, you could come up with a biological definiton which would work very well in most cases but there are also adoptive moms who are called "Mom" as well and are more real in some senses than their biological mom because of the role they have adopted. In the same sense there are biological women and people who have adopted the role of woman. So a woman would be "one who is womaning" where womaning is a verb that is difficult to define due to its dependence on a given culture. There was no attempt to try to help you understand though very cringe.
Typical Jack behavior, and as much as I dislike him acting like that, you don't need anyone else to present an argument, Doug. Whether X or Y person has an answer to whatever question you have, has absolutely nothing to say about your position or argument on the matter. Do you have an argument or not? You could be talking to the most ignorant or most intelligent person on the planet, and it doesn't make the slightest bit of difference about YOUR argument against gender.
Dear Jack, having your world view question is part of a debate. Being asked questions to test logic is part of a debate. If your workdview and logic are being tested and you are think that engaging in answering questions "traps" you in an argument you arent trying to make then maybe there is a flaw in your worldview or logic. A logical opinion can be explained. An emotional one can't always. Having both isn't a problem however being able to tell the difference is important. If you try to have a logic debate with emotion its a pointless debate. Debates arent a matter of feelings they are a matter of facts.
So it seems like Zoey is claiming that gender identity is purely due to societal norms, however I think she’s not acknowledging that our societal expectations for males and females do not exist in a vacuum. Our species is sexually dimorphic, not extremely so but these differences exist. So it would make sense that as we develop hierarchal societies and compartmentalize, we would do so on the basis of what we observe in ourselves. Most males exhibit the same traits along a spectrum and the same for females, with slight overlap in certain individuals. I’m not a pure naturalist but I can still approach it from that perspective. These differences were selected for, for a reason, and while we may say that some of them were for when we were still hunter/gather, many of our traits still have functionality in our modern societies and this is why they have persisted. So if we were to apply a syllogism to it: humans exhibit sexual differentiation->Humans exhibit sexual dimorphism for certain traits->Humans establish societal expectations based on these traits. One can claim they identify with the socialization of the opposite sex, however this acknowledges that the social expectations are rooted in sex and not a separate social aspect of gender. This is why a drag queen can exist, but a trans person cannot.
Different societies have different ideas of gender. Note that most of this discussion is very anglo-centric. Most of our current views of gender roles are heavily, if not almost exclusively, influenced by the Victorians (which is kind of weird, when you think about it: Victoria was literally a queen and the most powerful empress of the time).
@@derkylos this is true, I’m sorry if I made it sound like I was arguing for a strictly biological origin for gender constructs. There are environmental factors as well influenced by language, religion, and culture. However, like I said it seems Zoey thinks that these gender constructs exist solely via social abstracts that cultures create. What I’m arguing is that there is a core biological factor where you could likely find a commonality between almost all human cultures. Most cultures are going to have a male ideal of strong, warrior, hypermasculine, and nurturing, gentle, compassionate, for female. Now other cultures do have variation in this or even create other categories, but what you’ll find is that these are also almost always based on sex. Many of the “third gender” that people like to use for argument that gender is a social construct fail to mention that these extra genders were usually used for intersex people.
Sex has nothing to do with sociology. But its definition of biological sex includes “chromosomes, gonads, hormones, and genitals” there are unique situations as well. Gender is the social construct. Swyer syndrome affects sexual development. People with this intersex condition have XY (male) chromosomes and functional female genitalia. With Swyer syndrome, ovaries or testes never develop, so you won’t go through puberty unless you have hormone replacement therapy. Turner syndrome, also known as 45, X, or 45, X0, is a genetic disorder in which a person's cells have only one X chromosome or are partially missing an X chromosome. Most people have two sex chromosomes. Androgen insensitivity syndrome is a condition that affects sexual development before birth and during puberty. People with this condition have one X chromosome and one Y chromosome in each cell, which is typical for males. In people with androgen insensitivity syndrome, the body's cells and tissues are unable to respond to certain male sex hormones (called androgens) that are important for normal male sexual development before birth and during puberty. As a result, affected individuals may have external sex characteristics that are typical for females or have features of both male and female sexual development. Disorders of sex development (DSDs) are conditions in which the reproductive organs and genitals do not develop normally. People with DSDs have a mix of male and female sexual characteristics.
Those things you mention are not relevant to the definition of sex. " To see this, we must be clear about how the two sexes are defined in a broad sense: males are those individuals that produce the smaller gametes (e.g. sperm), while females are defined as those that produce the larger gametes (e.g. Parker et al., 1972; Bell, 1982; Lessells et al., 2009; Togashi and Cox, 2011).” Gamete competition, gamete limitation, and the evolution of the two sexes , Molecular Human Reproduction, Volume 20, Issue 12, December 2014 males are the sex that produces small gametes when functioning properly, females large gametes when functioning properly, in the same way the heart is the organ that pumps blood when functioning properly.
@@lordsneed9418 I've got a database recording people's sex and in walks an inter-sexed person, someone with both genitalia. How should I code their sex in my database?
When they enter female restrooms, brutalize females in contact sports, make demands on language and laws, employ life ruination with people who don’t agree with them, and all the others ways they “just want to be left alone”? Yeah then we care.
