I live in a warm climate that almost never sees snow. However, I watched this entire video because I know if I ever move to a snowy climate this channel posts the best tire information on the internet.
I live in Sweden, as far up as possible on the globe 😂 And i learn a lot from this channel. Even though the only thing you should learn/know is if you ever will drive on snow and ice please use propper winter tires. If a possible studded tires for better frip on clear ice (studds do nothing for grip on snow).
I think the reason why BMW was better on the hill start might be due to weight distribution. Standing on a hill some weight of a car goes into the rear, which means that BMWs 50/50 becomes something like 45 /55 (front/rear), thus giving rear wheels better traction. In case of Audi, which has weight distribution something like 55/45 (front/rear) on flat surface, becomes 50/50 on the hill, which means that front wheels get less grip and cannot pull the car effectively. The numbers I present are just for example, but the idea should be clear. The reason I come to this conclusion is because Porsche 911s are extremally good when it comes to acceleration and can smoke cars that have 100+ hp more - all thanks to the engine far in the rear, which gives them weight distribution 40/60 (front/rear), which means better traction for rear tires.
The 2 most important things I got out of this video: 1. Get good winter tyres and you're almost always good to go, no matter what your car is. 2. I want to take my Type R on such a snow test track and have some fun.
For lots of folks two sets of wheels/tires is neither practical (and winter only in the summer is not a good option either) or affordable though so a bit difficult. I'd need a whole 'nuther garage for all our cars two have 2 sets and it would cost a fortune lol.
@@spinnetti Well, what do you need that many cars for then? And you were able to afford all those cars, which are way more expensive than a set of wheels and tyres. So, your argument is a bit weird. And if the weather you get isn't that snowy, I don't argue, that you might be okay with a set of All-season tyres, but that's not the question here. In those snowy conditions, you are ALWAYS better off with a full winter tyre. See John's previous video about traction aids.
@@spinnetti No, it would not require a whole other garage, as fitting 4 wheels & tires doesn't require that much space and they can be placed on shelving up high, flexibly, fitting in many places. If you have a huge fleet of cars then there's no excuse for not being able to store tires for all of them. If you have over-extended yourself and bought too many cars and can't afford proper outfitting for them then you need to re-evaluate your situation. It also does not cost basically anything at all, just a small bit of capital tied into the second set once, but no extra costs. Running a car with two sets of tires doesn't cost any more than running it with one set. Actually the costs go down as typically one set, usually the winter set is cheaper. And when you sell the car on your other set will be sold as well, which offsets the cost of buying a second set for your next car. A new set of wheels costs very little and if you can't afford that then you've been irresponsible with your finances and either spent far too much on your car/other stuff in your life, or you simply can't afford driving at all.
There would be even more difference if driving on twisty roads/track with tire tracks formed which are more slippery or more grippy (it depends on the conditions and road surface type which of those two phenomenons happens). Then the RWD would excel even more as you have so much more feel of grip levels and you can place it so much more precisely and turn-in is so much better, making you able to exploit the optimum grip as you can place the tires *_exactly_* where you want them. I was used to exploiting the mm-precision of FWD cars to optimise the use of what I saw and could feel were the most grippy bits of road. You can gain a *_massive_* advantage over someone who doesn't feel where there's more grip and/or can't place the tires right on the most grippy bits.
@@remembermorrison I think also that the problem is weight balance between front and rear. I think that an old Golf 2 with 70% weight at front will make both of these cars outsiders in winter tests.
I know a lot of people commenting on wanting to see deeper snow, but seriously you'd have to be crazy to take either of these cars, or any sedan, out in deep snow conditions. Thanks for the real world type test with a "normal" snow covered road.
I think not necessarily deep snow testing but loose snow. Hardpack has lots of grip to offer and these aren't the conditions you should be worried about getting around in. Its the slush, ice, and loose snow that's going to get you stuck. I understand those conditions are hard to consistently replicate but I think accelerating/braking/hill in a few inches of fresh snow would be a valuable test category.
You do know there are places where 3 to 6 inches of fresh snow is a normal snow covered road, right? Like a good chunk of the northern midwestern United States, where I live. Most people drive the same car year round, so a lot of people drive to work in several inches of fresh snow in their sedans.
Even a Subaru Impreza with the best traction control system (4x4) would get stuck in deeper snow (if you don't have chains especially). When the snow is actually hitting your front bumper (or it's even higher than that), things start to get really dangerous, no matter what car you're driving. Even a 6x6 wheel military vehicle can get stuck in deeper snow.
In my experience, the gearbox also plays a considerable role, or maybe the gearbox-traction control combo. I got stuck on snow and gravel with a pre facelift audi A4 B9 2.0 TDI S-tronic way more than I did with any of the manual diesel Golfs and Ford Focus I previously owned. The traction control drops the revs while the gearbox pushes the clutch in just when you are about to get a move on! I have since switched to an xDrive diesel F10 with that creamy ZF 8HP gearbox and I never looked back!
Yeah dsg does really poorly in mud, snow or sand unless you have 4motion or Quattro It just give up right before you would start moving because it doesn't want to overheat the clutch
@@VenturaIT the weight difference does not make any difference in my particular case. While there is a difference between a Golf7 and an Audi A4 B9, it can be compensated by having 4 people in the car. In my case it did not matter at all. In fact it was better to have the people outside the car, pushing. My point is that the DSG/S-tronic cuts the power to the wheels just when you are about to breakthrough. All other variables are accounted for: same place, same tires (1cm wider on the Audi, but same make and model), same people in the car.
I can tell you as an "Alpine person" - one situation where RWD falls flat on its face vs FWD - regardless of the tires. The deep, semi-wet snow. So for example - there was a snow plough or just heavy amount of snowfall on your parking lot - FWD will wiggle its way if you play with the steering wheel, but with RWD just pushing or pulling the car forward or backward - you will be stuck as hell. Therefore - lesson learned - I Only had RWD BMW once in my life - since then only Xdrive is bought.
I've also been wondering about the type of snow for these tests... I've lived in a little village on a steep hill in Germany. And it was common knowledge that RWD BMW's couldn't handle it when it started snowing. Indeed, I've seen them struggle, where my simple FWD Mitsubishi had no problems.
exactly, in realnlife conditions every 2wd rear drive with engine at the front will have much bigger problems against regular fron drive 2wd car, end of discusion. i driven all of them.
@@KorpiSoturi1no, most of the europe dont,t drive tires with spikes, they ere banned. regular m+s tires are more then enough in light snow. without heavy ice.
Jon, to be fair though .. the Audi looked under control the whole time during the acceleration test while the BMW was squirming .. put a bang average driver in both (not someone with your skills) and that driver may have gone clear across the road in the BMW while the Audi remained controlled. Depending on how you look at it .. a win for the Audi .. As always .. incredible vid sir !
Very good and informative video! My only comments on it are this: as someone from one of the major snow bands in the US Midwest and drives a FWD vehicle, there are a couple things I noticed that you missed: 1) For the incline test, I noticed that the FWD car just kept trying to go in a straight line up the hill even though that was shown to get them nowhere 2 out of 3 times. That's because in that situation, you shouldn't be trying to go straight up. The way to get moving forward again when stuck going uphill in FWD is to first, turn off traction control and if in a manual, put in 1st or 2nd gear, second, get the wheels spinning fast, and third, turn the wheels from side-to-side so that the car is zig-zagging it's way up. Doing this often helps get your car moving again when everyone else around you is getting stuck. 2) FWD is more stable than RWD in snow and is much harder to have fun in, yes, but you can still get it drifting around corners if you have an e-brake/hand brake and the skill to have fun in it correctly...also, turning off traction control will make fun come slightly easier, but that should go without saying. You need to pay attention to your gas and brake pedals. Time the gas and braking just right when you are going to turn and you can easily get that car sideways. Then pulling that e-brake/hand brake, while holding in the lock button so it doesn't stay engaged, will get those rear tires to immediately go to the side. Time the e-brake/hand brake right, and you can do some real passable drifting in a FWD car. Won't hold up to a RWD car in a race, of course, but the object here is to have fun on *empty* country roads and road courses, not to race. Have fun out there, guys! And most importantly, drive safe!!
Good try. But don't try to say you having as much fun in any FWD in the snow than I have with my Pontiac G8 GT GT 6 liter V8 posi traction 50 50 weight distribution Michelin AS 4 AS. Here is the thing, I steer with the throttle. Bat turns can be made in 25' wide street. The sound track of that V8 burble spinning the rear wheels out of control. Ha ha ha I bet you have a 4 cyl...
@@rjdef9534 Oh I'm not, trust me. RWD will ALWAYS me more fun in the snow. Just what I was trying to say is that with the right techniques, you can still have a little fun in FWD, if an appliance car is all you can afford. Also, that second half of your comment is a weird flex, but ok.
I had two E90 3 series RWD back to back, doing 100k miles in each. I ran winter tyres and had no issues in snow at all. I live in the countryside and my commute involved about a mile or so of virgin snow, not driven on; and about 4 miles on compacted snow (the rest being dual carriageway and urban roads that were salted and cleared). The tyres were just magic. They made a noticeable difference in rain and generally cold conditions too. What's more, for the times of the year when it doesn't snow, you're in a nicely balanced rear drive car, not a dreary understeerey box like the Audi.
i think it makes sense from a physical perspective. On a flat snowy surface they are both about the same. It's all about weight transfer while accelerating. The Audi has more weight on the drive axle, but when you accelerate some of the weight transfers to the rear. This makes them about the same on a flat snowy surface. When you have even less grip (on flat ice) the cars transfer less weight to the back, which should make the audi the better choice. But usually we don't drive on ice. On a hill we have the opposite situation. We have more weight transfer, which shoud give the rwd car a slight advantage. It should be the same for every other surface with more grip than the flat snowy surface. RWD is definitly worse when we have more weight on the front axle, but modern cars have 50:50 weight destribution. And RWD could be worse in real world when we are stuck somewhere and the drive axle is on isy surface... But RWD definitly has advantages. That's why many of the new electric vehicles have RWD.
Excellent test! Really sucks how brands like Audi keep nannying things even with ESC "turned off". I think these cars are aimed at slightly different people. The BMW is for people who enjoy the driving experience and aren't afraid to get a little sideways sometimes. The Audi is for people who mostly want to be primarily comfortable, but also want to have the illusion of being a "fast driver" once in a while without actually getting too risky.
Regular buyers of these cars would never turn off ESC (in all my decades of skiing, I've sometimes asked people on the slopes about it and have never found a single one who ever turned ESC off) and in that case the Audi's nannies were less intrusive than the BWM's
There are massive amounts of evidence that Audi does not target real driving enthusiasts at all. I even know of inside information from the company's development engineers themselves how they absolutely do NOT favour real driving over those who don't know anything other than how "stable" it feels. Not only is their ESC always horrible, they also have their automatic gearbox manual modes always not being real manual modes, their shift patterns are the *_wrong way_* , they purposefully make the cars horribly understeery to drive (to feel 'stable' for bad drivers over being actually good to drive), the driving feel is terrible, they compromise the suspension geometry and setup, etc. etc.
I've always argued that rear wheel drive or front wheel drive doesn't really matter if you're an active and relatively skilled driver. I've lots of experience from both as a professional driver, and I believe that front wheel drive is easier for the average driver in tricky weather conditions. In the 80's my Citroën CX's were unbeatable on ice and snow; uphill, downhill, acceleration or breaking thanks to the hydraulic suspension and it's distribution of weight in all situations. Miss it a lot... I really enjoyed this video 😁
the bmw tail happiness is only fun when you're are the cause of it and have some control over it, losing the end at highway speed not funny, on track, on road on a time attack or in a rally stage or going to buy groceries... RWD rally cars crashes are all over the internet and may occur in every rally... that disable ESC thing is much overhyped..., mud, water, snow ,sand fun at slower speeds it feels better for me, no matter the traction where is it...
I live in Canada and have driven AWD, 4X4, FWD and RWD in the most insane weather conditions imaginable for decades long before traction control existed. I'm fascinated by your results because my real world experience tells me FWD over RWD in bad snowy weather, especially on hills. I've seen FWD with all season tires get up hills RWD vehicles with snow tires couldn't get up. Last winter I was driving in a storm on my way to work and came across a woman in a Nissan Altima 3.5 v6 with winter tires who was hung up in deep snow at an intersection where a snow plow left a bank of snow. I pulled over to help her and I could see her wheels were barely spinning. "Traction Control" was the cause. I showed her how to turn off the traction control and gave her a small push by myself. She had full power and her tires spun hard, she hooked up and took off no problem. You said traction control was turned off but in my experience some cars don't really let you ever turn it off fully. That could have been the problem in this instance with the FWD Audi.
Don’t understand why you guys don’t drive on studded tires like we do in Finland and Sweden, I’d say it doesn’t matter FWD, RWD or AWD. I’d take the one with studded tires no matter which. It makes more difference.
@@martinekstrom6303 Studded tires have a specific purpose. They're basically pointless in areas that only gets light snow or even lots of snow but no icy conditions. If I lived on a rural dirt road in winter that was ice covered I would only use studded tires. Studded tires are illegal in the province of Quebec because of how hard they are on the roads.
@@johnnyg1132 Studded tires are important not only in rural areas, heavily trafficked roads get polished ice by traffic. Studded tires rugs the icy surface and helps also vehicles without studs. Also when it’s really cold, they are not so important, friction is good. It’s around 0 C freezing they shine. They do save lives. It’s obvious by statistics. That they are prohibited is only based on your politicians wants to save on road maintenance and not provide safer roads. They are way superior in difficult circumstances that are very common in areas like south Canada and Scandinavia. Not for snow, but ice and in temperatures around freezing. We have way better statistics on fatal road accidents on winter roads thanks to the use of studded tires. They help also non studded tires by improving traction on icy roads.
One advantage that you didn’t mention with front wheel drive I have found is in deep snow often sawing the steering side to side you can maintain progress where otherwise you would be stuck? This often works!
Was gonna say lol I'd still take RWD any day though, much more fun. My X-Drive's rear biased ias also far more fun in the snow coming off a turn, I always just give it extra kick to make it slide, and it always ends straight on the road
in reality there are more variables that will affect max slope climbing/ standing still capability or coefficient mu of traction... it has to be with c enter of gravity, weight distribution, length between axles or distance to C. of G. (and to some extent total wheel radius, gearing, transients, suspension, ground clearance, unsprung weight, rotaional mass inertia, mass...) you may find a great deal of traction (braking, climbing and handling) with old school low british sports car (caterham 7 type) or buggy/VW beetle or FWD PAnda or 4x4 PAnda or FWD 2CV... but in general FWD are way more stable, RWD will left you stuck in different manner of a FWD will, I don't see the fun of losing the rear and going sideways off the road on a RWD but FWD can feel crazy when it just keeps going straight no matter you try when understeering... but with a FWD or AWD you may end easy and less tired aftar some sketchy conditions for sure...
@@VictorEstrada Yeah you can have fun with RWD on flat roads but trust me where I live with RWD (new tires or not) you can move only with chains on the wheels because It's almost always uphill where ever you go but with FWD and new front tires 85% of the time you're good. It all depends where you live. My choice is AWD because you can still have fun and go where ever you like no problem, deep snow or not.
@@nix8061 yeah I live in the Rockies, so snow and uphills are definitely a thing. X-Drive though, is AWD but RWD biased, so you can have fun while having the traction.
FWD cars are focused on safety and comfort. And they are more idiot proof. You don't get a FWD car if you want to have fun. Bottom line, they are more safe to drive, even by idiots. And to be honest, if you are driving carefully in snow (as you should) there should be no difference between the two. The small differences come out when you push them to the limit. Which again, you shouldn't on a snow covered road, with traffic around you. Unless you're a WRC champion from Finland. Then you can do whatever you want with the car 🙂 Great video, as always.
Comfort has nothing to do with it. Most comfotable cars have been usually RWD. But before modern traction systems you could argue it was a safety issue. Now it doesnt really matter. Traction control will instantly kill any tendancy to oversteer. I find it more unsettling to have the front lose grip so you cant even turn..
I put a set of Bridgestone Blizzaks on my MX5. It’s one of the best 2WD cars I have ever driven in snow. So much grip, but you can easily go sideways everywhere if you want to. So much fun, fantastic tyre
I’m surprised at the results as well. But these are test results at the hands of an experienced race driver who understands oversteer and understeer and how to counteract them. Put average drivers behind the wheels and I suspect RWD will result in more snap oversteers and accidents.
An average 3 series at that speed (or any reasonable speed) will not snap. The wheelbase is not too short, it's somewhat heavy, and it's by a mile not powerful enough to snap (considering the weight). The only area it might really be intimidating IMHO is on the wet where it's more prone to aquaplaning. But then, you still need to know how to drive and many driving errors are corrected by all the driving assistance of today's cars and for that you might be right in regards to overall "accidents" rate, especially in extreme conditions or when those are off.
To be fair, I’m 20 years old, (only 3.5 years of driving experience) and I have never spun/crashed my 335i in snow. Only a few days of snow driving experience but I maximized my time sideways in those few days and found it incredibly intuitive and predictable :p still not your average driver because I’m a car enthusiast and have played some car games but still, proper counter steering is definitley not a racer skill only
.....I agree with you, all except for the "experienced racing driver" part. I'm by no means a racing driver, never drove on a track one day in my life, but I love driving, and to me it feels like RWD is easyer to control on snow/ice. FWD has a lot of understeer, and the rear feels like the business end of a flail (I can feel it being dragged along). It's also less forgiving if you overcompensate on snow / ice because you can't use the clutch and accelerator pedal to control the rear of the car like you can with a RWD vehicle, but if you don't overcompensate FWD is less prone to oversteer than RWD. Witch only reinforces your point. People who can drive will prefer RWD cars. People who only drive to get around should probably stick to FWD.
@@thelachsmith81 I've had snap oversteer in my old alfa 159 when I underestimated a corner.... 9-10 years ago. Would up facing the wrong way around. I wasn't even going that fast.
Some of this difference may be in fact gearbox related. The DSG in the audi uses a clutch and the BMW a torque converter ZF. Having to slip a clutch to set off causes more wheel spin. The 8 speed zf is clearly better suited to this task as it can pull from idle revs rather than the equivalent of about 1500-2000rpm with the DSG before the clutch is fully released. DSG can do faster changes and uses less fuel but that counts for little here and the ZF is also smoother too again helping snow progress. Is the audi always starting in first gear as it would stall if it set off in second? I seem to remember BMW's autos can set off in second. Often we were taught to set off in 2nd in snow. Not sure DSG let's you. My golf DSG will select first. And it's a very short first before going into second.
I think a lot of this was due more to weight transfer. RWD will get better traction as the weight transfer on acceleration puts more weight on the rear wheels. That allows you to use the throttle to control the weight transfer.
I think you are right. I have owned both a BMW with torque converter and a VW with DSG. DSG is horrible as soon as you start to do anything besides driving straight on a dry road. Especially bad when doing precision manoeuvring or driving on snow. Just not a very good design. Normally a front wheel drive would be better on a hill start because of all the weight on the front wheels. I have owned both fwd and rwd at the same time and the fwd was better at getting up hill on slippery roads (like my driveway). The BMW was better at everything compared to the VW with DSG though.
@@tomasbengtsson5157What car was your VW, and what engine? The DSG is like a manual with the clutch up or down. It doesn't seem to do in-between. They've got round this on my golf 7.5 DSG by giving it a really short first for manoeuvring. So it's possible to do precise manoeuvres in 1st at low speeds. However reverse is higher geared and the creep speed in reverse is quite fast, hold on brake to get go slower and you eventually stop. Reversing is therefore done in a series of manoeuvres rather than 1 fluid manoeuvre. The only way this would work better is if DSG could hold the clutch just above bite. It's the same with all automatics that have a clutch rather than a torque converter. Not many small torque converter autos and those tend to have really bad MPG and emissions especially with smaller engines. But in snow precision matters and DSG is going to be at a disadvantage. I reckon my mini manual with the same tyres would be a safer bet as I have full control
I always tell to anybody who asks me about my opinion of buying an Audi - if you really want an Audi, get a quattro; otherwise simply get a Passat, call it a day and you won't regret it. If i was the head of the company ALL of the cars would've been coming out of the factory with quattro AWD. There is absolutely no point of buying a FWD Audi. You really are better with a simple Passat or Golf. As for the "smiling" and "having fun" in the BMW - this "having fun" is what keeps the rest of us on nails while driving calmly. Because we know we are about to meet a BMW driver, who suddenly decides to have fun right in front of us.
Thank you! That has always been on my mind regarding RWD especially many new EV comes with it on base model. Important parts I learned would be: make sure to have good 3PMSF tires in the snow and when choosing RWD in the snow, it needs to be a 50/50 weight balanced vehicle to be safe & fun.👍
Interesting test suite. Thanks! As a BMW owner that will NEVER see snow, it's not applicable to my daily driving but it brings back memories of "puttin' one in the ditch" every year.
Rwd is better on snow on hills because all weight goes to the back. Its even better in steering because if you goes into curve fast fwd going straight whatever you doing with steering wheel.
Driving in snow is, most of the time, not about having fun, it's about getting where you're going and back again safely. This was a test on having fun in snow not "The Ultimate Test on Snow!"
🎉 I am extremely grateful for this video after waiting and asking for it for years. The content on your channel this month has been truly delightful. As a BMW owner, I can confidently say that people's fear of these cars is completely unfounded. In fact, BMW should be thanking you for this video!
I think a lot of the fear comes from seeing the older cars, especially in the hands of people that didn't appreciate the difference between rwd and fwd. I remember as a kid seeing people sliding all over the place in mild winter conditions. OFC winter tires have come a long way from back then.
Brilliant. Very impressed. The conventional wisdom is that FWD is better but the reality is that the average RWD car has about twice the power of the average FWD car and that reveals the central issue to lay alongside your statements about tyre equality. Powerful cars break traction more easily and are more of a handful on ice and snow. Well done for getting such well-matched vehicles. My own approach is to buy the lowest power BMW I can lay my hands on so I am currently looking for my 4th 316/318 since 2000.
Gonna' bookmark this video and just send it to every person that scoffs and shakes their head when I tell them I'm driving my BRZ through the winter. "Oh, it's a rear wheel drive, you'll get stuck..."
I am so surprised with you fidings as I have a FWD car and a RWD car. My Focus ST totally outperform my 130i in the snow conditions as I have been stuck a countless times with the BMW. For info, the Focus is having Micheling Cross Climate 2 and the BMW is having Continental WinterContact TS 860 S. The 130i being my daily car in Switzerland, I ended up fitting a quaife LSD (for fun purposes also :) ). The BMW is now more capable in the snow. Thanks for the great video guys.
@@tyrereviews actually no, the ST MK2 is bone stock beside the mountune 260 tune. The BMW didn't at the time of the comparison. From where I was surprised with my experience compared to yours :)
Good job for the video, i liked it. You haven't tested a killer situation for RWD, trying to back up a small incline. You go to the mountains in the winter on a narrow road and try to turn around, your front goes down a small ditch aaaaaand you're stuck 😂. Or even more ofter I've seen them stuck on tracks-small ditches left by cars driving in snow, the snow melts a tiny bit during daytime and freezes over the night and it forms small ditches ice solid, you drop both front tyres in that "ditch" aaaaand you're stuck 😂.
The biggest difference comes when you have to drive through relatively deep snow. Where the front-wheel drive moves out on its own, the rear-wheel drive gets stuck. Whether you drive through a snow-covered yard yourself, or whether you have to call someone for help - that is the decisive difference in winter, and not a couple of seconds during acceleration.
RWD gives you more control, as you control your rear with the throttle and the front with the steering , with FWD you lose steering the moment you lose traction. Results make perfect sense, I've always found it weird when people prefer FWD over RWD for snow. The video was really entertaining. 👌🏻👌🏻
There is a big differents between real world and a test track. A RWD has more controllability with a good driver in reality most of us are just average, specialy on a normal day like driving to work still slightly sleepy or tired after shift. Also a normal road is much narrower, when your rear swings out, you probably go in the ditch anyway. FWD is easier, you basicly have to do nothing. Also if things go south and you crash in a tree, the RWD is probably sideways what is more dangerous for passengers than head on in a FWD.
@@jonasstahl9826 Good and reasonable points! I guess it comes down to what you're used to. RWD, FWD and AWD included, give totally different feel of a vehicle's behaviour even on a dry road. I would still prefer RWD though.
Thing is, here in the nordics back before you got all the electronics, you mainly saw bmw and mercedes in the ditch during snow storms. Audi wins, because no one drives with esc off. That said my own car is Subaru, that would most likely win by a landslide.
In snow, gravel, ice, mud, over steer is easier to correct than under steer. This is where my hatred of FWD comes from, because of the nature of FWD to cause front wheel slippage, which can lead to nearly uncontrollable under steer, and a very difficult fight to get it back under control again. It is far easier to rely on steer wheels to keep steering when there is no power to cause them to slip. Especially in town driving, where lower speeds, and very sharp turns can lead to many a fender bender, or a good old curb bump. I would reckon that many FWD's need that traction control to prevent this. Not merely an annoying feature, but almost a necessary one. A RWD can let the wheels, even the tail end, slip and correct in many conditions. Once the FWD slips, you might simply be coasting into the ditch/curb/neighbor/edge of the track. All the claims that "FWD will pull you out of a slide" fails on the fact that front wheels sledding on snow don't pull you out of anything. This is where 4x4 can even be problematic. "Bind" between the direction of the front and rear wheels can lead to a severe under steer condition. The power to the front wheels can help; cause under steer. With good traction controls and skill you can get a lot of good icy/snowy driving out of them, but once again the driver needs to understand the dynamics of his drive system, not assume it magically does better in rough conditions. And I suppose no good discussion on RWD snow/ice is complete without considerations of individual vehicle. Long wheel base like the BMW, or my classic full size American land yachts, leads to superior RWD slip condition driving. Shorter wheel base RWD often do worse. Also, we are given a stock vehicle with its factory weight and distribution. A little bit of sand bag here and there, or dead weight in a seat here or there, we can modify this easily to our advantage. Putting extra desired weight on a rear axle is easy for us. Adding weight to a FWD for advantage is often not even possible. Finally, we should think about gears. My 79 Lincoln Mark V has three tall gears in its C6 automatic transmission, along with a sky high 2.42 rear gear ratio! This does not make for a quick accelerating car, and we should respect the amount of loading the engine suffers every time it drives.... but it has the unintended benefit of excellent snow/gravel drive traction. Big torque applied to a slow, big transmission with high gears leads to stable, even power that does not want to slip and cause slide. Modern cars, with their low geared 6 to 10 gear transmissions, need traction controls because of how much instant power they can put down. Starting off in 2nd gear to gain traction in snow is a tactic as old as the car. The steeper the gears get, the more problems you might have on gravel/snow/ice/mud. Some muscle/sports car configurations, along with RWD light trucks and vans, can suffer from bad traction due to lack of weight on rear axle, as well as being short geared for acceleration or work. In this, we see a lot of bad rep for the RWD in snow. Short wheel base, low rear weight, low gears are not a winning combination for RWD on snow.
Great video but I really would have liked to see the test done with an AWD version of these cars too. I just wanted to see how much better the AWD version would have been.
I've always believed that there were very limited advantages to FWD in the snow. Specifically they seem to do a little better than RWD at getting moving in deeper snow, my assumption being turning the front wheels allows them to climb up out of their rut somewhat, compacting snow underneath rather than just getting pushed against an obstacle, then once you've moved a vehicle length the rear wheels have a rut to roll through instead of the non-driven wheels continuing to push through an obstacle. But for actual driving dynamics, it seems like the ability to transfer weight onto the driven axle while accelerating forwards is big. And yes, winter tires over all else. I got over a foot of snow in September a few years back and by a happy accident had winter tires on my very light one-tire-fire RWD truck. Nothing fancy either, just some older mid-range tires that came with a different vehicle I bought. It was pretty entertaining cruising around happily and seeing much heavier 4x4's on AT's getting stuck all over.
FWD advantage in many small cars is mostly due to more weight over the driven wheels especially in deep snow. back in the days when I started driving little Toyota Tercel and Nissan Micra could drive in a snowstorm without much issues where bigger RWD cars got stuck or spin out left and right. Here I suppose the BMW has a more balanced 50/50 distribution and good diffential.
@@francoisloriot2674 I don’t really think that’s the case. Most cars don’t have much front weight bias at all. And it doesn’t take much weight in the trunk of a RWD car to shift the weight bias back. But anecdotally, yesterday I moved four car around the yard through snow eight inches deep. One fwd, one rwd, and two 4x4’s, one in 2wd(rwd) and the other in 4x4 because it had been parked that way and I didn’t notice. The only one that got stuck was the fwd and it got stuck a lot, going both forwards and backwards. It’s got winter tires on it, it just didn’t have enough traction to push ruts into the snow, and the others did. Narrower tires too, maybe smaller diameter hurt i? Lower total weight maybe? Although the rwd is a pickup that doesn’t have much weight over the rear axle. The truck left ruts with its diff just as deep as anything the fwd car left so I don’t think it was a ground clearance issue either. But there’s definitely more variables here than just fwd vs rwd.
@@gogmorgoaway_"Most cars don't have much front weight bias at all"_ FWD cars typically have around 60/40 split front to rear, with some smaller cars being closer to 65/35.
I've had plenty of RWD and FWD and when I lived with snow I had a lot more frightening experiences in RWD. I prefer AWD. Better in the winter and puts down big HP from a standstill better in the summer :)
@@palco22 That is funny. I have dozens of near-death experiences (and several crashes) in my 70's-80's RWD Toyota cars and trucks in the snow, but my 70's Golfs/Sciroccos never had a bit of trouble (Michigan/US). I've been AWD for the last couple decades from the Wife's Touareg to my R8 even though I'm in Texas now lol :)
RWD hasn't been dangerous for over a quarter century: ever since traction control and then ESC were invented RWD has been pretty much the best drive system there is, even for winter. I've lived way up north in Northern Europe for most of my life and I've never needed an AWD car. RWD also makes driving far more enjoyable in many ways: eg. every start from the lights is a test of skill to get a really good acceleration...meanwhile with AWD everyone is just in your way far worse!! It's more frustrating to drive with AWD as you not only lose a lot of feel and chances to have fun, but you have 100x more 'obstacles' everywhere as slow drivers are even more slow in relation to your driving!
It's modern driver aids, plus you can't compare a truck to a compact car. A truck has very little weight over the rear axle. On snow and ice they go sideways everywhere and very easily. Fun for some, scary for others.
For a straight hill climb, where you start on the middle of the hill, RWD does have an advantage. Two things to remember is that with FWD you can steer left-right to “look for grip” and in situations where you can get your front wheels on the top of the hill FWD is a huge advantage.
All cars are good straight ahead, it is when the road starts twisting you can tell who's a good driver or not. Being brought up with rwd cars, and Volvo in particular from PV to 200 series, I totally agree a rwd car is more fun in snow and even on wet roads. Would be fun to see how an old Volvo 200 or a 700 would behave in a test like this compared to a BMW.
FWD or RWD, it does not make a huge difference as some would suggest. In some cases it is even better to have RWD, so all myths that RWD are not good for winter are false. The most important thing is to have good winter tyres that are not too old.
With an awd BMW, I will switch the stability system to traction (MDM) mode to allow the car to slide and bite into the snow when trying to get out of side streets or on roads with a huge build up of snow. This way the computers are not braking the wheels and limiting the power. I can use the push and pull at both ends to get me and keep me going
Great test! As much as I like the outcome, I think the electronic nannies have skewed the result, making it not a real drivetrain comparison. Then again it's more representative of what to expect in modern cars. Nice to see that it's not that much of a huge difference in any case.
Have some road markings on that snow circuit of yours (and keep on your side of it!) and some hard railings on the near sides of it that would utterly destroy your car if you touch them (looks more like a B road now doesn't it?) and then tell us which is more "fun" to drive, maybe coming home from work in dim light... YES, rwd is more sporty and fun on a CIRCUIT, where you don't have to worry about 90% of what driving on the road is mostly about. For REAL life driving on public roads, especially in slippery conditions, go for AWD if possible, FWD as second option and RWD only if you don't have any other choice, but ALWAYS spend as much as you can afford on tyres!
Brilliant thanks 🙏🏻 I’d like to add a thought…. I think RWD will be worse on a normal road hill start. Roads typically have a crown, in the UK at least. Any spin at all, moves the rear towards the curb. The FWD can vector thrust a little and the rear follows.
Great video as always. Both fwd and rwd has their + and -, the awd had the best from both. The fwd cats are usually easier to drive and safer by most drivers where the rwd cars although a lit more fun they requires a really good driver’s technique and they are more difficult to control, less safe. The reason why uphills are easier on rwd are simple physic’s. Just do the test in revers and bmw rwd will lose to Audi fwd, it’s like the mad of the car shifts and add or remove weight over driving axle
Amazing driving and fun video, but let’s be real. That handling part had zero relativity to the average driver and actual winter safety, and was weighed on abit too much. There should be more real word tests to differentiate between FWD vs RWD safety in winter , and if the difference is still rly mainly by tires or not! Thanks tho i thoroughly enjoyed watching it all and ur driving skills are a joy to watch
I knew a guy years ago that lived up a long steep gravel driveway. He had to back his front wheel drive Nissan wagon up his driveway to get it to his house. I had a rear wheel drive Toyota wagon and I just drove it up there forward with little issue.
That is something I remember FWD drivers sometimes doing back in the day. I knew of a few hills from apartment/home parking lots which when snowy/icy made it hard to get up, and some people actually did back up in their FWD cars. It really does work...but is difficult for unskilled drivers especially when the tires slip!
Nice test. For years, I have said there are three things that make the difference in snow. Not in any particular order these are: The driver, the tires, and the percent of weight on the drive wheels. FWD, RWD, and AWD are only significant because of their effect on the percent of weight on the drive wheels. But maybe its time for me to add a fourth criteria -- how good/bad the nanny software is.
Not surprised at all. One important factor to consider: the driving skills ! Get your average Jane or Joe in any of these great vehicles and the results would be rather sad, but it would guaranty great entertainment. Here in Canada when RWD were the norm 150 pounds of sand bags in the trunk was normal to have. As the years passed I did end up with a couple of FWD and I found them terrible in snow. I was also given a small FWD van for work (Rural setting) and it was just useless and of course we switched back to large RWD vans . The RWD van with the weight of our equipment in the back over the drive wheels gave it a distinct advantage over the FWD van. While working with the FWD van I often had to reverse on hills to get anywhere (This would shift the weight distribution to the drive wheels in reverse). I also for the past 50 years, have had a 4x4 or AWD vehicle as second car (SUV). I personally prefer RWD over FWD for all road and weather conditions. Enjoy these videos and with Christmas just around the corner have a safe holiday and great health to all.
And I would also guess that different cars handle snow differently. So the real conclution is that the tires are really the most important bit. I run GoodYear UltraGrip Arctic 2 for winters, and they stick to the road like nothing I've ever had in the past. Great fit on my very front-heavy Saab.
In the uphill climb it's pure physics at work. All the weight is on the back wheels thus the BMW accelerates better. FWD looses grip more easily due to the same principle. Also while being more fun, most people can't handle the first hint of oversteer of RWD or have the space to correct it safely on public roads. But the basic principle is this: whatever you drive, get yourself the best tires you can afford, don't cheap out. I see a lot of premium cars on garbage tires...
I was honestly expecting FWD to win on points, and RWD to win on smiles per mile, I’s surprised by the results. I 100% agree about the tyres being the most important part of everything though. A decent set of winter tyres mean my RWD Merc gets to go out in all weathers.
As it seems Europe has known for decades upon decades, and the U.S. doesn't seem to be able to wrap their heads around, proper tires are way more important than which wheels are driven. I think the better test would be which drivetrain layout wins with the average person in the driver's seat. I don't think enough people know how to handle a RWD car, because understeer is more familiar. So I'd like to see that comparison.
There was a time in the US that it was very common for those in the northern states to change over to winter tires, especially when RWD cars were prevalent. All season is favored by many nowadays.
@@blueberrycobblerYes, that time was long ago. I have lived in the northern part of the U.S. my entire life, and it still baffles me how many people in the north think their all-season tires are all they need.
I have the goodyear in the front of my Skoda Roomster (winterset). Even with the +-10°C now in BE they provid excelent grip and very responsive handeling. Rears will be swapped after this season. Always like seeing your videos because they are fun and get to the point. Also providing much needed answers to questions floating around. Love your work and I'll always recommened the top 3 or5 tyres you recommend because from my experience, you're always pretty much bang on the money.
Someone i know that watches your videos recently lost all grip and went off the road while driving on their Nexen Winguard Winspike 3 studded tires. They were driving very slow, but the car could almost not even stand still with these tires. The tires were bought a year ago, but were not stored in optimal conditions during summer. What they were driving on was hard norwegian ice that was not maintained in the slightest at the point they were driving in. No sand, no salt. The road was sloping down on each side and had a high point in the middle and it was extremely slippery ice that it rained on at the time all over the road. They were just driving really slowly forwards and the rear wheels slipped and the car turned 180° and into a ditch. In a norwegian test i found, they said that the same thing that happened to my friend, also happened to them in their test. In fear my friend got new Nokian Hakkapelitta 10 winter tyres. They’re now kinda afraid to drive and would really appreciate a test of the different nordic studded tyres to feel more safe to drive again. Such a test won’t make them drive carelessly, they would never do that and they’ve never done so. They always try to drive as careful as they can. But now they’re kinda afraid to start driving again. Seeing how capable different new studded tyres in the nordics are in a test would calm them down a lot (including Nokian Hakka 10, i’ve only seen you testing nokian hakka 9).
I enjoy watching these videos but always come to the same conclusion for my own car: Tyres make more difference, the real world difference is marginal at best, and I'm always going to prefer AWD with winter tyres
It would be great if there was some test, info, grip levels when playing with tyre pressures in winter tyres according to manufacturers. Does it make a difference, what to look for, safety... Great video as always. 👌🏼🔝
@@tyrereviews That's phenomenal as I had a conversation with my friend, he was complaining that his BMW handled really badly, he had no confidence in it when he increased tyre pressure to what he believed was a full load according to a door sticker, going with 5 people to a ski weekend. Looking forward to it!
This is on snow, which is reasonable surface when you are living somewhere with minimal traffic, where the roads don't get plowed by the traffic and snow plowers. In any urban environment, the surface will be closer to ice.
Conclusion, in the hands of a highly skilled driver who can comfortably continuously drift a car on public roads the RWD BMW is quicker with stability systems turned off than the FWD Audi with systems turned off. Yawn. In the real world having FWD would be safer for your average driver. You only have to watch Dash Cams of Australia (or similar) to see the number of times RWD heroes loose control of the rear of their car and crash on public roads.
That was some beautiful driving in the BMW. Winter tires really do make all the difference and the rear wheel drive does help in climbing. I remember in old days we would put our FWD cars in reverse to climb up snowy road because we couldn't do it just with FWD.
wondering if keeping both tidy would give the same result in the handling test :D also hill climb kinda amazed me... if anything thought that rwd would struggle but i guess it makes sense since more weight is on the back in that situation
I have had 76 cars in my driving life. I live in a climate that has lots of rain, ice & snow per year. My preference is front or four wheel drive. I haven't always been able to afford winter tyres and summer tyres nor premium makes, so have had to make do with 'normal' tyres. I'm not a racing driver by any means but I've built up 35 years of experience. For my own set of circumstances, and I suspect this applies to the majority, fwd is more forgiving in a broader range of scenarios. I suspect this is what Audi are aiming at. Even BMW have swapped some models to fwd!
Great video, good comparison! 💯 But in reality, I’ve seen alot of RWD cars struggling in the snow and not so many FWD.. I wanted to see the cars in some more snow. RWD really need very good winter tyres and preferably some weight in the back, and you’re good to go. By the way , RWD definitely is more fun but not for anyone.. especially beginners. For a light/small car (hatchback), I think FWD has more traction in the snow, because of the weight of the engine at the front wheels.
As much as I liked to see the RWD "win" as a RWD user I can say that when shit hits the fan and e.g. you get stuck, with FWD you have much more possibilities for maneuvering than with RWD. You can only go forward/backward which is insufficient when trying to get unstuck. Being able to turn rotating wheels left/right looking for traction on my previous cars helped a lot. I expect similar with deeper snow - while RWD would try to push against it with limited traction, FWD would try to "climb" over it and pull it under front wheels which should be easier. Nevertheless I must comment that taking either RWD or FWD into deep snow is pointless. Those cars are made to stay on (somehow) maintained roads so that would be just a risk. Unless it is a short path e.g. to a ski slope and you get a chance to use snow chains - I assume that there FWD would also have an advantage. Anyways ... staying with RWD on my fun/daily and not going away from it anytime soon 🥰.
What I took away from this video is that if you are a good driver that likes the tail out, then the RWD is obviously more fun. For a standard driver, who just wants to be safe though. Well the Audi’s systems appear to be “safer”. So if I’m buying a car for my wife to drive my kids around in during the winter, it’s gonna be the Audi. If it’s for me being a hooligan in the snow, then the BMW might be the better option. But in these conditions, I’m way more likely to be driving something with 4wd…
Astonishing result and, in my case, very unexpected. Looks like you really enjoyed your comparative test! I've never run a RWD car in snow and have either had FWD or 4WD/AWD vehicles, all until recently all fitted with summer tyres all year round - with predictably mixed results on snow or ice covered roads. Agree about tyres making a difference. Our FWD car now runs on all season Goodyear Vectors all round, which are very impressive in winter conditions. Our other car, a BMW X5, which is permanent 4WD, is on winter tyres, which are BMW star marked, runflat, Pirelli Scorpion in 255/55/18 size. The X5's unstoppable in snow and defies those who opinion that BMW 4x4 systems are vastly inferior to comparable Jaguar Land Rover models.
As mentioned in the comments, the advantage of the FWD is that you can turn the wheels get more grip when you're stuck, which you didn't do And as also mentioned in these comments and those of your other snow test videos, very cold and hard snow isn't the same as half melted fresh snow, where the AWD would have an advantage thanks to the steering
Yes, testing this in the Arctic is mostly pointless. Very dry/cold snow leads to much better grip than snow conditions faced by most people who had to drive in it.
Fantastic video... one thing to note is Audi managed to have one of the best weight distributions for an FWD platform in it's latest cars. Any other brand would have even more front bias. RWD cars tend to all be pretty sorted around 50/50. Also the Audi did not manage to climb the hill at all in the bad lane, BMW was slower there but still made it to the top.
What a bs you talking about? Best weight distribution for FWD is around 65/35. Audi had and have best weight distribution for AWD, but for FWD? Not in their AWD platforms.
Yeah for FWD traction need more weight over the front than the rear, meanwhile rear traction surely more on the back hence the excellent traction from a 911.
The point is: In reallife you never have this perfect grippy snow. If there is some ice and pressed snow/ice the heavy front wheeler will have more traction at the first acceleration.
You should have also tested on compacted snow and icy incline. I've driven RWD cars and that's where they are falling behind FWD cars. Anyway, to kind of state the obvious , AWD is my preferred option, even on dry roads.
i love how he highlight throughout the video how fun driving the BMW is. That's great and all in a closed circuit, I'd be more interested if that "fun" would mean I have to be 10x more careful not to slide lanes in the Alpes or wherever. Statistics shows that not all of us are experienced racedrivers
Great video as always, I was thinking about both cars, I decided to go for a Audi A4 Avant 45 2.0 TFSI Quattro, it worked amazingly for me in the deep snow & wet conditions.
I live in a place where everywhere I go I must cross 2 kilometers of different levels of inclines and everybody prefers FWD because you have more control and If you cant make It uphill you just turn around and in reverse and It goes like a charm. One winter I had a mercedes c220 kompressor RWD and I was surprised because It was driving really good on snow but when the snow started to melt I couldn't move from a standstill. I drove FWD, RWD and AWD and with RWD when you go uphill on a curve and you start slipping you're done because It throws the rear end to the side and you can't straighten yourself back anymore to get back downhill but with FWD if you're stuck your rear end will always stay straight and you can reverse easily and try again. And with FWD If you want to make It uphill you must turn traction control OFF and If It starts to slip you turn It ON for a second until the wheel grips again. That's why this test makes no sense to real world scenario and you can't drive that "fun" BMW sideways on narrow roads uphill and downhill where there is traffic.
Last time I drove a BMW was around 2004 or 2005, it was a cheap E36 1993 316 my workplace had (really cheap - with drum brakes on rear axle), and before that for some months in 2000 I got a 1984 BMW 528i (E28). Now I drive an old front wheel drive AUDI A6 C6, and we got some serious snow (always got a shovel during winters in the boot just in case), once this week I even got stuck and needed some assistance from other people to get out. Because so much time has passed, I can't really compare them, but loved all of those cars.
Nice video! It''s good to know that if you are an opposite lock petrol head the RWD is faster and way funnier. But still... if you're not, or more important- cannot or even don't know what opposite lock is... probably stick to the FWD. Although it's duller and probably slower- It's way safer for the inexperienced and more relaxed drivers to have FWD in the snow and ice
Good comparison. I think it's right the rear wheel is better in snow when you know how to drive it. Unfortunately most people don't. Neither drivetrain is better when it's in a snowbank.
