Auro-3D Upmixer - Ceiling Speakers as Heights? Dolby Surround vs. dts neural:x vs. AURO-3D 

Nice to see companies like Klipsch offer a full range of in-wall options with THX certification. -Jon

Hai i am from India i own the 3800 too i am happy with it except for the fact that the calibrated sound settings go for a toss every time i switch between inputs , which is a pain in the ass 😡, tried all the tricks i known still the same , i had it configured as a 7.1 system and had the audessy to off and set the manual. E q and saved the settings but if i switch from streamer to my Blu ray and then switch back to the streamer ( using quick select) it goes back to audessy and then i have to re do the whole thing over again , i am frustrated with this , other than this the amp is really good, i might swap it out with the 4800 , it's a nightmare for me , are you facing any issues with your receiver or is it just me , 😥

Try factory reset or call Denon

@@GAVhometheatreguide8226 I think there is a selector to switch between preset 1 or 2 and audessy, I think it may be adjustable per input but I can't remember.

@@trauma50disaster1 Yes there are two memory presets for Audyssey. You can quickly switch between presets using the remote

thanks for that update, where can I get that info on upcoming firmware changes? I don't have that on the denon x3800h yet.

Thanks for listing all the firmware enhancement for Denon and Marantz. So nice to hear that upgrade are delivering new features - not just fixes.-Jon

Know if 2020 models will get the update? Specifically SR8015 else X8500HA?

@@truwarrior22 just the new 2022/2023 models as far as I know

This is all true and the update I believe has been released already. The thing is that Auro 3D works best in the height speaker configuration where the heights are directly above the ear level speakers at approx 30 degrees above when measured from the MLP. With Auro 3D it is particularly recommended that you don’t place the height speakers closer to the main listening position than the ear level speaker below and that is the problem with using in ceiling speakers setup per the Dolby Atmos recommended specs. Those ceiling speakers, per the spec, are more forward than the ear level speakers which will totally screw with the way the up-mixer is designed to work. Also in a proper Auro 3D setup you are aiming the height speakers not directly at the main listening position but rather above the main listening position at roughly standing height. So think of Auro 3D heights as creating a layer of sound above the MLP where the Dolby Atmos spec has the ceiling speakers more above the MLP and aimed directly down toward the MLP. It seems counterintuitive but Auro 3D is a work of psycho acoustic genius. The Auro 3D layout really works and it works great for Atmos too. I think some people who switch to Auro 3D without implementing the proper speaker layout end up being underwhelmed by the effect. So keep that in mind that even though it’s possible doesn’t mean your going to get a good result by using an Atmos speaker setup with Auro 3D.

Wow! I completely missed that detail. Thanks so much for pointing that out. So helpful to me and others. -Jon

The use of full speakers everywhere makes sense. I got one of the larger set of ceiling speakers - but they are still not full range. -Jon

Wilfried Van Baelen is an audio genius.

I find an Auro 3D speaker layout using height speakers directly above the ear level speakers is easier to achieve and simpler. Putting speakers above in ceiling is a pain in the butt by comparison. My 5.1.4 Auro 3D layout works great during Dolby Atmos content as well when not using the Auro 3D up mixer. Best of both worlds. Dolby has even added the heights being at 30 degree angle above ear level to the approved Dolby Atmos recommended specifications.

@@JonMoralesLAwhere does it say you can do 30?

@@whitecrowuk575 Google “Dolby Atmos 30 degrees” and I think you’ll find your answer. I have tried it myself and found Dolby Atmos still works great in the Auro 3D height configuration of speakers 30 degrees above base layer as measured from main listening position. Also Auro 3D setup has those heights aimed at standing height at the main listening position and NOT directly at the seated height. That’s how I have mine setup and again, sounds fantastic. Run the Atmos demo material and be amazed at how great it sounds in this configuration.

I appreciate the additional elements you added in your response. I am looking forward to experiencing more - I will pay addition to the characteristics you listed. -Jon

I find that Neural-X works far better with movies than it does for music. Dolby Surround works better for music (with center spread on) than it does with movies. Auromatic excels with both. Another major issue with both Dolby Surround and Neural-X, is that they are both absolutely TERRIBLE with old TV shows. They dump everything to the center channel and sound like a mono-mix. I have heard Auromatic with multichannel movies and stereo music and it sounds outstanding. I am hoping that Auromatic works well for upmixing older tv shows too. Because right now I use Multichannel stereo with those.

@@FURognar well said FUR

Thanks for that analysis one these three upmixing technologies. I need to play around with center spread as well. I know that feature was removed and adding back due to popular demand - so it must be important. Glad you mentioned. Also like the insight as too what content each excels at. -Jon

Thanks for the kind feedback. Feel free to point out items you may disagree with. We can have a healthy debate and I may learn something. -Jon

Yes the new March 2023 firmware eliminates the need for cheating on models that support that update. I posted a video explaining that enhancement 3 days ago.-Jon

The only brands which support both IMAX Enhanced and Auro-3D are Arcam, AudioControl, Denon, JBL Synthesis and Marantz. What that really boils done to is two options due to the common platforms: Platform 1) Denon and Marantz Platform 2) Arcam, AudioControl and JBL Synthesis These start at $1700 for Denon AVR-X3800H and go up to $8,550 for the JBL Synthesis SDR-38. What you select needs to start with the speaker layout you need to support. From a sound quality / low cost balance perspective the Denon AVR-X4800H suites many with it 7.4.4 configuration support. Jon

Yes. While the Auro-3D decoder and upmixer will work with a 7.1.4 configuration, Auro-3D typically does not use rear surround channels. So a 5.1.4 will work just fine. -Jon

I haven’t tried yet - good suggestion. I will do some exploring perhaps report back. -Jon

That is the great thing about having all formats available- you can select the one you like the most for each type of material you play. -Jon

I think your configuration can work well with Auro-3D. From those that have a middle row of ceiling speakers they say the two channels blend to create a phantom top center channel. -Jon

@@ripewave I completed renovation on just month ago. Currently my 6 Atmos channels are 2 heights on front + 2 heights rear + 2 top ceiling. It works well with Auro 3d. - District 9 is one of the most helicopter sounds. And it's very effective in. I feel it's above and around me depending on the object's movement. - Top gun Marverick before pre flight the radio is coming from above between top ceiling and rear heights. And front heights - Ready player one race scene. King Kong is on my head for real including T-Rex I can confirm, Most blockbuster movies are works really well on auro3D by the combination of 3 layers. For a movie lover like me this is totally worth it. It's a big upgrade when comparing with my old set up

Thanks Jerry - you are correct. That change with March update just after I published this video

@@ripewave Keep up the good work. I'm considering a pre-processor to replace my Denon and have enjoyed your videos. I have a Monolith 11X. Thanks.

For Denon and Marantz this video was made obsolete with the March firmware update to the newest models. Now speakers configured for ceiling can be used for Auro 3D. The ceiling speakers I use, the Polk Audio 900-ls has the drivers tilted towards the listener at a fixed angle. At the height and distance I have mounted it works out that they are aimed at the main listening position. -Jon

​@@ripewaveThank you for the videos!They've been incredibly helpful. Currently setting up a 7.1.4 configuration and can only mount speakers on ceiling angled toward MLP. Top/heights will have to be further in from mains by about 3 feet, but that still produces the same distance from MLP to the speakers as to my base speakers. Will this worsen the Auro3D quality by much?

Plz GIVE ME THE FLAGSHIP AVR WHICH SUPPORT EVERYTHING LIKE AURA 3D DIRAC AMOS ETC. AND SUGGEST ME THE HIGH END SPEAKER FOR PROPER HOME THEATER PLZ SIR

I am glad you find this guidance helpful.

There are a lot of parameters that go into selecting the right model for someone. Features? Price? Sound quality? Style? I typically start with the speaker layout you are seeking. That will be a 9.4.8 configuration at best for the under $10,000 group. The Denon receiver I am reviewing right now can handle 9.4.4 or 7.4.4 layouts and all the common sound formats, including Auro-3D. Keep in mind there is no perfect receiver or processors that has “everything”, but typically close enough. For best sound quality you may actually loose sound features, but gain others. There are speakers systems that range is cost all the way up to the price of a house. Knowing someone’s budget helps, but for me I am not sure I would spend more then $3000 for speaker and that is really past my limit. I feel the Polk Audio Reserve or Legend series are a good value system that perform well. Although I am not familiar with Focal, I feel they be a step up from Polk. If you want to spend less there is serval popular brands - SVS, Emotiva, etc. I just haven’t auditioned. -Jon

That is a fair comment and shared by many who write in. I plan on doing more with Auro-3D in 2024. I might configure front heights to compare against my current front ceiling speakers along with a top center speaker. -Jon

Glad you enjoyed the video. -Jon

I tested the Dolby Atmos demo disc Auro vs Dolby. I have the proper Auro 3D speaker layout. I found that Demos sounded better in Auro 3D than in Atmos. I was pleasantly shocked. My favorite Dolby Demo disc demo is the one with the bouncy balls moving around. Auro 3D was more convincing on the sounds correlating with the visual cues on the screen. The helicopter also sounded more convincing as to its movement and direction in the space. Just all around Auro sounded noticeably better to me than native Dolby Atmos. What sucks is that I left to Spain for 3 months in the midst of my test with the 3800h. Can’t wait to get back home and do some more listening. Rogue One sounded amazing in Auro as well. I have her to test Auro with any BluRay content though other than Demo disc. So that’s something I’m looking forward to as well.

You may be right - however, we will need to convince Hollywood to provide Auro format content - at least in the US there is nothing. Some say Atmos movies sound better with Auto up-mix but native content would be better. I would like to option to choose may playback format. -Jon

@@ripewave When calling for more native Auro content… isn’t this a fundamental misunderstanding of the appeal of Auro 3D being the up-mixer? I didn’t buy a receiver with Auro 3D for native Auro 3D content (virtually none available). I wanted the feature for the Auromatic up-mixer that takes base layer 5.1 or 7.1 Dolby and up-converts it to make excellent use of the height speakers. This is to address the under utilized use of height speakers in most Dolby Atmos movies mixes. So if anything, a call for better native Dolby Atmos mixes is what should be called for and NOT more Auro 3D native content when it comes to movies. I’m a big fan of Auro 3D and feel like I get the satisfaction out of my height speakers that I’m missing out on from the poor state of Dolby Atmos mixes.

I lived with a 5.1 setup for over 20 years and was content. I have since moved to 7.2.4 layout and prefer that experience. I respect that the additional immersive channels are not for everyone. I find litter little content I can actual notice from the listening position coming from the rear surround, but the height channels are active enough to be noticeable. Where I align more with you is when the front center channel is over utilized - particularly when listening to 2.0 channel sources that are upmixed. Glad you shared you perspective, because I feel that both views are valid. -Jon