BA London to Las Vegas World Traveller Plus A350-1000 - Premium Economy

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Watch this review of British Airways Premium Economy, or World Traveller Plus, flying from London Heathrow to Las Vegas Harry Reid International Airport.
This flight was on board BA's brand new A350-1000 showcasing their newest World Traveller Plus product.
The flight got off to a fairly good start, quick service and plenty of drinks rounds, however shortly after the crew disappeared for the rest of the flight and seemingly forgot to serve out second meal!
Despite this, we did manage to cut our estimated 10.5 hour flight to little over 9 hours was which fantastic.
We found this newer product much nicer than their older premium economy cabin with big screen and better seat layout. All in all, a good flight, only let down by the lack of food options.
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Опубликовано:

29 сен 2024

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Комментарии : 130

@gunvaldsandhaland7757 Год назад

I Love the A350.I Like the Product Premium Economy.Great work

@TimAndMatt Год назад

It's a great plane and to be fair, it was a comfortable journey. Thanks for watching

@andrewmonks3668 Год назад

I can confirm as BA crew that a second meal should have been served!

@TimAndMatt Год назад

We've never known to not have two meals on such a long flight and we both fly a lot (one Silver, one Gold). Thank you for commenting -great to have someone who knows the industry. I've got a ticket open with BA and am just waiting to see what they say :)

@janey1133 Год назад

@@TimAndMatt as ex British Airways cabin crew with 22 years of flying experience you absolutely should have had a second meal!

@bekind2047 Год назад

This is the surest way to loose (future) customers.

@alexhidveghy2816 7 месяцев назад

I also flew this aircraft and route recently (Feb, 2024) and like yours, had two meal services advertised on the menu. This is standard on ALL trans-Atlantic flights, especially to the US west coast. I know this as a frequent World Traveller Plus and also as an airline veteran. In our case, we had a delay in excess of 3 hours on our BA275 and once airborne, were told that there would be no second meal service! Presumably because the cabin crew would not get any rest time during a 10:45 scheduled flight! And like you, to add insult to injury, by the time they got to me (seat 26D), no choice out of the three on the menu, I got leftovers! On the positive side, I discovered I would be due monetary compensation for the delays and lack of meals/choices and made a claim. But only 5000 Avios, I guess because I’m just Bronze, not Silver or Gold. Was told it might take up to 28 days to get the money. Should I charge them for interest, I wonder?!……

@joebarrett4353 Месяц назад

@@bekind2047 Yep, they lost me

@ACBuckland Год назад

This is the flight I'm taking in January! looking forward to it, thanks for an updated review on this plane!

@TimAndMatt Год назад

That's awesome! Have you flown BA's premium before? I hope you enjoy the flight :)

@ACBuckland Год назад

Yeah! My last 2 trips with BA were Premium, a 747 (which was awesome in 2019) and In March which I'm pretty sure was a 787. One day I'll get Business class!! One Day...

@TimAndMatt Год назад

Ah, you've already experienced the old and the new then! You'll get to business one day - the only problem with it is once you've done it, it's hard to go back 🤣

@ACBuckland Год назад

That's the main thing that worries me lol! It's hard enough going back to regular economy.

@brettkendall9090 Год назад

I’m booked with BA to vegas in February, first time as I normally fly Virgin Atlantic, thanks for your review,

@George-ps5 Год назад

Thank you!

@TimAndMatt Год назад

You're welcome!

@ukdavepianoman 5 месяцев назад

No second meal on a 9-10 hour flight? That's very odd. As they ran out of Thankgiving lunches, I wonder if not all the food was loaded. I've flown BA many times and it's very rare the FAs go into hiding. Very nice video.

@TimAndMatt 5 месяцев назад

Thank you. It was a poor experience but I must say near all other flights we have with BA are good. Our vlogging of them is random and sadly we chose this one to record. It gives a real scenario of what can happen but even we didn’t expect it to turn out like this

@DerkDerglass Месяц назад

I’m flying CW with BA in Oct. Never had such a low level of excitement for a business class flight 😂

@TimAndMatt Месяц назад

This was one of our worst premium economy flights we’ve had with BA. Generally they’re not this bad, it’s just unfortunate this was the one we chose to capture. We have a CW review on BA on the A350 from LHR to Vegas if that’s the route you’re taking. You should check that out. We also have a video of CW from Gatwick if you’re flying from there

@erikua2010 Год назад

Just flew on a 777-200 from LHR to the States and had this upgraded cabin. As a not-slim passenger, I will say this was one of the most comfortable seats I've ever flown in. Meals were gone by the time they got to me and I had to have an Economy meal - not a big deal but wondering why they seem to have a problem adequately staging the right amount of meals for their premium economy. No second meal was offered and as you mentioned after the first round of drinks - we never saw the cabin crew again offering drinks. Regardless, the plane was comfortable, with plenty of legroom and we got to our destination safely. One comment though - reclining seats should be banned.

@TimAndMatt Год назад

I'd agree this seat was quite comfortable on the A350 - We've flown the very old version of this seat many times this is a huge improvement (I'm not sure how many BA aircraft still have the old one). It's a shame there is such mix of experiences with second meal services. Since uploading this video I've seem a lot of similar comments on no second meal - it's not good and a poor customer experience (especially when you're literally given the menu with it on).

@markcummings3146 Год назад

I usually fly Virgin to the US as I find it far superior to BA however for 2024 we've book British airways because it was £180 cheaper for premium. To my shock I find out that's because they charge for seat selection (not great for a nervous flyer like myself who needs to window seat). Watching this review was really useful but sad to see the same old BA issues such as running out of meal options - I had the same experience flying business class to Costa Rica and they ran out of all options other than vegetarain which I didn't like so I had to make do with a snack for a near 12 hour flight. At least with this newer plane other issues I've had with BA like broken seats and entertainment shouldn't be such a problem. By the way Virgin email customers a week prior to departure offering you to select your meal option so they don't run out, why cannot BA do this?

@TimAndMatt Год назад

I would say that most of our flights with BA have been good, this one was just a bad one. We have another review going up soon of premium economy on the A380 to Miami which was a much better flight 😊 I agree with the seat selection thing. It’s frustrating - frequent flyers of Silver and above can choose for free but for everyone else it’s an expensive process, especially for a family

@stevenbennett3922 9 месяцев назад

I'm afraid it has been a long time since BA lost the accolade of Flag Carrier. Running out of the offering and then not offering the second meal smacks of penny pinching.

@TimAndMatt 9 месяцев назад

We fly this route a fair bit and this was one of the worst flights. There is something about the Vegas route that just lacks proper service. We're flying it again next week in business and will film that one too.

@bekind2047 Год назад

What you mentioned about the missing second meal makes me think more than twice if I really should choose BA for my next trips. It’s not about the meal, it’s about how they handled it. You don‘t read something like this about asian or near east carriers. Looks like that is the way to go.

@TimAndMatt Год назад

We’ve flown then so many time. Some of our best flights have been with them. Unfortunately so have some of our worst - unsurprising really as BA are our first choice in most cases. The single meal thing was a first for us though and disappointing for sure. Thanks for watching 😊

@linesided Год назад

EVERY time I fly BA Prem Y they run out of first choice meals. Who plans this nonsense?

@TimAndMatt Год назад

Such a pain although I have to say our premium flight last month went without a hitch (video upcoming for that)

@gemmapenny Год назад

The Las Vegas flights have a reputation for rowdy behaviour as people are going there to gamble and they tend to drink too much on the flight, hence the announcement. Quite a few cabin staff don't like doing the Vegas flights because of this.

@opendmind65 Год назад

Looks like BA is crap then

@joebarrett4353 Месяц назад

BA are just awful. Customer service is non existent. Why does anyone fly with them? BA premium economy is 2-4-2. Virgin is 2-3-2

@TimAndMatt Месяц назад

It is hit and miss. You’d love Part 1 of our latest Vegas vlog then 🤣🤣 On the premium layout, it depends on the aircraft. Some BA planes are also 2-3-2

@coloradocolorado1527 23 дня назад

Great video . R u still able to watch the screen even if the person in front of you reclines? Does it. Other much the passenger in front reclining? Many thanks

@TimAndMatt 22 дня назад

Yes you can! It is a lot closer your face, and if your seat is not reclined you will look down a bit on it, but the screen is adjustable and still watchable.

@caesuresalade 3 месяца назад

Disappointed, but not surprised - haha. Great vid btw! 🤙🏼 The stern announcement probably had something to do with a plane-full of brits on their ways to Vegas and need to be reminded how to behave... and TBF, vegas is notorious amongst flight and cabin crews as being one of the worst destinations to fly to so I'm not surprised. Secondly, there are small-town crime syndicates that operate more efficiently than BA - I do sometimes wonder if it's all just a toddler playing Airport Tycoon 🤪🎮

@TimAndMatt 3 месяца назад

Cheers! haha - Brits abroad? Abhorrent! It's all tea and crumpets, surely? :)

@sandippatel1969 Месяц назад

BA rapidly going downhill

@dospalmascb 3 месяца назад

What did BA say ? presuming you contacted them when you landed or even on your return to the UK.? you could have asked to lodge a complaint during the flight and you would have received a paper receipt that would have allowed you to follow up when you landed. I saw this on a WTP flight recently when the IFE screens didn't work for the entire flight. I wasn't bothered as i wanted to sleep anyway, but the people in front were very upset.

@TimAndMatt 3 месяца назад

They did compensate with Avios and were quite open about how this should not have been the case. We were happy with the outcome. It was a shame to post a negative video as we video our flights at random, but it is a genuine experience, good or bad. 🙂🙃

@GG-hi5if Год назад

Flying BA15 next year (LHR-SYD with 90 mins on the ground in Singapore). If I don’t get fed twice I might resort to eating the cabin crew…

@TimAndMatt Год назад

🤣🤣 I’d love to hear that. “I’ll take the GF cabin crew please”

@GG-hi5if Год назад

@@TimAndMatt with hummus!

@TimAndMatt Год назад

🤣

@ukdavepianoman 5 месяцев назад

...maybe with a nice Chianti?!

@oblongmusic3389 Год назад

BA used to be a world leader in commercial aviation..remember their boasts about being ‘The World’s Favourite Airline’ ?? But for a long time now they are in a state of managed decline.. I’ve flown with them dozens of times in all their cabins since they came into being.. nowadays the best thing I can say about them is that most of their planes are fitted with personal air vents .. 😏

@TimAndMatt Год назад

I do indeed remember those adverts. I mostly agree with you, however I’d say BA bottomed out a few years ago during their club Europe ‘panini period’. They’re trying now but still a long way to go. Cannot deny the club suite is an improvement and the old school staff still offer incredible service

@celestesmall5065 Год назад

I'm a regular Virgin Atlantic Premium Economy flyer. Thank you for your review. I'll certainly be staying with Virgin. I always enjoy the prosecco before take off, pre-selecting (reserving) my main course before flying, and a lovely second meal. Either the lovely afternoon tea or on a flight back to the UK a waffle or full English for breakfast. Love watching the tailcam on the A350s! The crew are always helpful and pleasant and bring drinks around at regular intervals.

@TimAndMatt Год назад

BA has become a lot more inconsistent. Some great flights and some not so great. We will have to give Virgin a go one day.

@thevirgintraveller Год назад

I've flown all 3 cabin's with VA, even in economy you get a 2nd meal, and credit to Virgin, my economy flight to Miami 3 weeks ago, the crew were constantly on the go for 9 hours refilling drinks and snacks! What's going on BA?! Also as you've stated, the prosecco offered in Premium with VA is a nice touch. After watching this review I'll most probably pass on BA in future.

@jamesk1806 Год назад

Virgin hands down every time over BA. As flag carrier BA are a let down.

@Jagkhalsa 3 месяца назад

It seems that BA does not provide what they claim in their promotions. Too sad.

@TimAndMatt 3 месяца назад

I have to say this was a one off from our experience. Next time we fly to Vegas in Premium Economy we will do a re-do!

@DGProduction777 Год назад

Hope you had a wonderful Christmas weekend and an amazing week so far. Wishing you a great 2023 with good health and blessed with joy & happiness my friend. 🏆🍾🍺🍻😎🥳😍💯💲💪🏻🤙🏻🎰🤑💰🥂🎉🎊🙏🏻🍀👍🏻🤜🏻🤛🏻

@BoomZzzZ Год назад

Are the drinks complimentary throughout the flight (even if you have to get them yourself!) ?

@TimAndMatt Год назад

Yes they are :)

@enviosimple 6 месяцев назад

I just flew it from Heathrow to Vancouver, got the 2 meals, all was going great until i found out they had not been capable of loading my 2 suitcases onto the flight despite having a 4 hour connection.... rather pathetic if yoy think about it, all they had to do is take my bags from one flight to another but it was obviously too much for them. Hanging around Vancouver now to see if somebody was capable of loading them today.

@TimAndMatt 6 месяцев назад

Glad it was a good flight - nearly all our flights with BA are great and is still our preferred (and convenient) airline. Absolute pain about losing luggage. Sadly this is one of those things with any airline. I’ve had the same experience but it was sorted quickly. I hope you were reunited with your luggage

@enviosimple 6 месяцев назад

@@TimAndMatt yes, got bags... i had to spend a day in Vancouver waiting, no updates on the claim sistem all day, so i had to assume they had been loaded on the next flight. When i got to the airport, ny bags were there, they were on my flight and came out a different belt... For some reason, when i went to inform my bag was not here, i was told my bags had been found in Heathrow an hour after take off as they had fallen of the belt (both). Turns out there was no such issue and the issue was me not knowing there was more than 1 belt for the flight. I would have thought they would know my bags had been loaded onto my flight and therefore had to be in Vancouver.... anyway, lost a day, but made it to Sun Peaks with all our bags and are having a great time. It was a shame as flight was great, flying back in business class, looking forward to that.

@anydroid 4 месяца назад

What a miserable experience. Some airlines treat premium economy as business minus the seat; BA apparently treat it as economy plus an amenity kit. I fail to see how this ~premium cabin is worth anything over economy.

@TimAndMatt 4 месяца назад

This flight was a poor customer experience however most we take are ok. It was just a shame this one we filmed fell below expectations.

@seank4568 Год назад

They could do better, in terms of drinks

@TimAndMatt Год назад

Personally I don’t think it’s terrible but I do wish they could serve them cold

@DaweiXia Год назад

BA's service post the pandemic is very disappointing. I recently flew from London to Cairo on a so-called business class was a huge disappointment. It's almost as if BA has forgotten how to be a great airline it once was. I'd recommend avoiding BA in the near future. There are plenty of great alternatives out there.

@olliojenarter Год назад

What are your favorites? I'm going to be flying to England and I've never flown more than 45 minutes on SW. There are so many options, my mind boggles at all of it!

@theokirby7955 Год назад

love British Airways 350, 777 and 787 new business class it I great

@sb6181 Год назад

Thanks for sharing. You were lied to about the second meal service - I can only guess that they forgot to load it and decided to lie but worth a comment to BA as you should get some Avios in compensation at the very least.

@TimAndMatt Год назад

Good point about loading, we didn’t think of that. We have got a case open with BA and are interested to hear their response

@alexhidveghy2816 7 месяцев назад

Same deal on my BA275 but they said it was because of excessive delays and a return to the gate! PA announcement made in the cruise before the first meal service. Presumably because of no rest time for the cabin crew? I was approved monetary compensation for the compounded delays outbound and Avios for the lack of meals/meal choices. All in WTP for which you pay a premium but don’t always get the promised service! This meal issue seems to be a common theme on this route - judging by the many comments here over time!……hmmm.

@carysfleming9002 Год назад

We're doing LAS to LHR next August on the A350 in WTP and the outbound journey in Business. Hope I get fed twice on both legs!

@TimAndMatt Год назад

I'm sure you will get two. We have flown to Vegas and the west coast dozens of times and this was a first. I honestly just think they messed up. Business will be awesome - I love those club suites. Miles better than the old business seat

@paulturnford3826 Год назад

Really do enjoy seeing you two guys. You should do more stuff as come across as really nice. Cheers, Paul

@TimAndMatt Год назад

Ah, thank you Paul, that's lovely to read :) We have plenty of videos on and have come a long way since we started! Mix bag of things on the channel and Lisbon vlog going on soon. Hope you have a great weekend

@johannesbols57 Год назад

As you are regular travelers I would hope you made a show of documenting exactly what was said and making detailed notes of the crew members who told you this. Not to ask their names, but to make it painfully clear you were going to do something about it.

@TimAndMatt Год назад

Not quite but we did open a case with BA afterwards. We finally heard back from them today after about three weeks

@olliojenarter Год назад

What did they do about it?

@TimAndMatt Год назад

@@olliojenarter they gave us each 25,000 avios

@happysavy9296 Год назад

I fly BA in July from the US to London and paid allot of money for my upgraded ticket so I hope I do not run into any issues like this. Sad they only served 1 meal for over an 9 hours flight or so. Thanks for sharing but great aircraft

@4700_Dk Год назад

After flying BA from the U.S. back to Copenhagen round trip last month. I will never ever fly them. They have definitely dropped in standard. Even United and Delta and AA did better.

@TimAndMatt Год назад

I do find BA flight from the US can be hit a miss. Never sure why that is as usually (although not all) flying to the US is good. Sorry to hear your experience was a bad one. Anything stand out or just a bad experience all round?

@jackmidd123 Месяц назад

Picturing a disappointed man in 48D putting away his portable roulette wheel following the PA

@TimAndMatt Месяц назад

🤣🤣

@tandl996 5 месяцев назад

Flew BA Phoenix to LHR in premium economy a month ago. Never again. I will say the food was good, but Once service was complete, the flight attendants disappeared until the second service at the end of the flight.The seats are tighter than other PE services I’ve flown. The seat backs recline into your face, and makes getting out of the window seat difficult, especially if the useles foot stool is extended on aisle seat. American Airline is not a great airline, but their product far exceeded the quality of BA’s premium economy.

@TimAndMatt 5 месяцев назад

I agree the seats recline so much it is hard to move out of a window seat, but also I'm not sure what the best option is here and it is nice to have the extra recline when spending the money. Was it an overnight flight as crew often minimise interaction on those flights to allow you to sleep but you can call them or visit the galley anytime and they should always be happy to provide whatever you request, assuming they have it. We have flown American premium and found it all in all very similar - overall enjoyable. We flying to Boston in June - economy out, premium back and are planning a comparison video

@lindenbeck Год назад

If I were you I would've complained about disappearance of the crew. One reason why I would pay for this class is streching my legs and being served. It's terrible enough that I don't have a slave at home.

@sheenodj 3 месяца назад

Thanks for the video. I think I’ll avoid this product as it doesn’t seem like good value for money at all.

@TimAndMatt 3 месяца назад

If you get it in a sale, it is worth it from economy. It is just a shame the flight we decided to capture was not a good one. It happens, but to be fair, we've had more good or 'meets expectations' than we have ever had bad.

@craighayes3316 Год назад

Imo Virgin Atlantic has a far superior product, in fact, across the board. Not only that, some of the BA Fleet is somewhat long on the tooth now. Their 777-200 especially are really showing age. One thing I can't take away from BA is their cabin crew. I've always found them very professional and friendly. And, I always have a sense of pride flying into another country on our Nations flag carrier airline.

@TimAndMatt Год назад

Very fair comment! We've only flown Virgin in economy and I remember it being not bad at all. Agree with the age of BA but they've got. huge upgrade programme underway and I believe none of their aircraft have that awful old product anymore (I think) - not promoting BA but we have most experience on them. Are you more a regular Virgin flyer?

@DapFrIeNd. Год назад

Hey cool video! Do you know if the IFE works with a single 3.5mm headphone cable? Or do I need to buy an adapter? Thanks!

@TimAndMatt Год назад

We used our 3.5mm headphone cable with our Bose headphones without any adapter and worked fine. There are two holes (for the usual airplane adapter) - just try both, one of them will work ☺️

@albatrosone Год назад

This is one of the reasons I don’t fly BA, you never know what you get 😢

@TimAndMatt Год назад

It’s a shame - a product of their own success and size I suppose?

@gust5992 Год назад

Shame on you BA!

@potato1084 Год назад

This is a really odd flight. I’ve never had this happen on BA I think something must’ve gone wrong with the food or something. Really strange for BA.

@TimAndMatt Год назад

Agree it’s the first time we’ve had that but we were disappointed by the lack of communication and the poor excuse given. We have reached out to BA and they’ve confirmed this should not have happened and awarded us avios compensation.

@libbythompson1999 Месяц назад

British Airways is consistently disappointing

@TimAndMatt Месяц назад

We’ve definitely had our best and worst experiences with them. Consistency is key

@Ritwikstuff 8 месяцев назад

Wow amazing video I will definitely subscribe 💕💕💕

@TimAndMatt 8 месяцев назад

Thank you ☺️

@ricardosam8050 Год назад

Thanks for sharing, I never had chance to travel on the A350

@TimAndMatt Год назад

Thanks for watching - it's a great aircraft!

@garybrooks5296 Год назад

I recently asked BA if I could upgrade to economy plus for my trip the Florida later this year for my wife and I. I hope they weren't offended when I told them where to go after saying it would cost an extra £3026 each

@Celtic_Amy Год назад

Sounds like they were trying to upgrade you to business class. Cincinnati to Philadelphia to London to Edinburgh was about $1900 round trip in premium economy (through America airlines) Business/ first class was $4000. If you only ask for an upgrade they will try to put you in the most expensive seat. I paid for main cabin and used points for my upgrade and had to argue with customer service that premium economy despite the name isn’t economy seats.

@TimAndMatt Год назад

wow!

@luvjets Год назад

I’m from Los Angeles, I have never flown from London to Vegas, but I have heard that Virgin provides much better service than BA. I also prefer Boeing aircraft to Airbus.

@TimAndMatt Год назад

Normally BA are pretty good but really fall far below the bar on this flight. Thanks for watching ☺️

@maryadame7113 Год назад

I alway fly Virgin from Las Vegas to London. They have always served a main meal, a toasted cheese sandwich mid-flight and a light meal before landing. They also, provide an ice cream during the middle of the flight. You never go hungry that’s for sure. I’ve never flown on British Airways. I’ve always wanted to fly them but at the last minute I always book with Virgin.

@ryansluxurytravel Год назад

Thanks for the honest review!

@TimAndMatt Год назад

Thank you for watching ☺️

@nikkik6333 11 месяцев назад

Well that's my decision made. We always fly to Las Vegas with Virgin but this time, we were thinking about BA. Nope, nada....not going to happen. Will be sticking with Virgin. Thanks for this great review.

@TimAndMatt 11 месяцев назад

Hey, thanks for watching! After this, I don't blame you. I will say 4/5 of our BA flights are great, but this one was a total let down. Also, most of our under performing BA flights happen to be the Vegas route for some reason!

@Footerscorey 5 месяцев назад

I’m literally on that flight right now same flight number same destination 😂😂😂😂

@TimAndMatt 5 месяцев назад

I hope it’s a great flight! Have an amazing time in Vegas

@SGS-Drones 11 месяцев назад

I flew with British Airways in economy about five years ago now from Manchester to Vancouver. It wasn’t the worst experience, but also not the best. I discovered that travelling through Heathrow Airport is horrendous. I had to change at Heathrow. It took 45 minutes to travel from terminal 5 to terminal 3. And terminal 3 was just disgusting and filthy. The beef that I had on board was undercooked and very rubbery. The second time I flew to Vancouver, I got a direct flight with Air Transat premium economy. The food wasn’t bad, but I must say that I do prefer travelling direct rather than going through a hub airport. Hopefully British Airways will start adopting the point to point model soon rather than sending everything through Heathrow.

@TimAndMatt 11 месяцев назад

T3 is not the best although I think it's improved a bit of late. I agree to your point about BA needing to reduce reliance on Heathrow. I get it in theory but in reality, journeys and airport experiences would improve if they adopted that model

@michellaporte6750 11 месяцев назад

I had that issue to Mexico a few months back. Flying WTP (Premium Economy) And after the first meal service, the crew dissapeared right until 40 mins before landing from the Captain. No second meal service either! 10 Hour flight

@TimAndMatt 11 месяцев назад

That’s terrible. Make sure you complain if you haven’t already - we did and they acknowledged it. Our next video is WTP to Miami and thankfully that was a great flight - as they should be

@janey1133 Год назад

What a disgrace not being given the second meal; I was BA cabin crew for 22 years and we worked our socks off always serving two meals on all Transatlantic flights! The crew were definitely lying to you and were just being lazy. You should have complained to the Cabin Service Director.

@TimAndMatt Год назад

We were surprised and figured they were lying. It's not that we 'needed' a second meal, but on such a long flight, it's just something to look forward to - a break in the journey to help make it seem like it's going faster. It was a shame - BA have, mostly, really good crew but it's a shame it just takes a few to have such a knock on their reputation. I also wonder if it is a general problem with the A350 as there is very little space in the galleys. Thank you for your input - you're not the first with cabin crew experience to reply to this video from either here or DM