As a linguist and translator I enjoyed Babel's magic system very much. I don't think that silver needed to understand anything. It was the words themselves that held magic and silver worked just as a medium. I believe the whole point in it was to show that words have a lot of power. This magic system and translation talks was honestly the most enjoyable thing in this book for me, but I can see how for uninterested people it might be tiring or dull. Nonetheless that's what the author knows the most about and it shows. She is passionate about linguistics and has a lot to tell about it. Also I'm under the impression that you take magic way to seriously. It's not sci-fi. Magic is magic, because it's inexplicable. So the whole explanation in this book was not about magic, but about translations and meanings for the sole pleasure of it. And if one don't find pleasure in linguistic talks I truly have no idea how they would be able to finish this book. Because I agree with your other points. The novel wasn't all that well written in terms of storytelling and seemed hurried. So yeah.
My weird take is that the combination of silver and linguistics makes this much more a metaphor for the information age than for the industrial age, with silver as a stand-in for lithium and linguistics as a stand-in for coding. If I had to guess, though, I'd say that's unintentional.
I was sharing my thoughts with a friend and how I wasn’t liking this book. It just felt off. And he sent me this video. I am grateful to him! What a great video. Gonna go binge your other videos now!
If you’re interested in the theme of colonialism I would highly recommend “Noli me tangere”. It’s a classic from the Philippines published in 1887. The main character has spent some years in Spain and very much internalized the colonialist narrative when he is confronted with the reality back in his home country. The author of the novel was eventually executed by the Spanish colonial government as his writings were considered a rebelious act.
Agree with this recommendation. The MC knows of his privilege having studied abroad, but he doesn't boast (for a lack of a better term) about it-in fact, I think it's one of his flaws the author wanted to emphasize, AND it's not like you're not annoyed by his character. Babel... well I was annoyed at Robin a lot LOL he's too "woke" for me
In fairness to R.F. Kuang, I don't think authors usually write their own blurbs or have that much say in how their books are marketed (beyond their own social media presence). I don't know if the she's actually the one who made that pitch (in which case I 100% agree with you), or if it was the publisher doing their own dark academia version of "this is the next Game of Thrones!" (in which case I don't think the author is deserving of your ire on this particular issue).
normally I would say that's probably the publisher, but I kind of doubt the publisher would have decided to pitch this book as having beef with highly regarded/respected/loved books unless the author indicated that was what she wanted....
Harry Potter's magic can absolutely be used without words (and without wands!) so it's pretty clear from the canon that words are only there to help the user to channel it and magic doesn't **actually** require words. Like, in the very first book they try their first spells and nothing happens at first.
yep! it's all about intent. that's why in the 1st book harry could do magic but not realize: removing the glass to free the snake, his hair suddenly growing back after a bad haircut, shrinking a jumper to avoid wearing it, etc.
Thanks for speaking out what I felt when I was finishing this book. I am amazed to see so many acclaimed reviews but now I glad to see I am not that much wrong.
About the magic words, haven't read Babel yet, so take this with a grain of salt. Personally, I don't see why using words cannot fall under the type of magic that you categorize as Physical. Essentially words are just sounds, in nature (outside of a human perspective) they're not language but mechanical waves flying across the air and bouncing off obstacles. If the explanation is that you are using the perfect set of mechanical waves to influence something in nature, I don't see why that should not be plausible. The objects that are influenced do not need to be sentient for that to happen.
7:00 this is an utterly ridiculous reason to not accept something that, under any circumstance, can't happen anyway. Why would you ever compare an abstract concept that can never happen no matter what the explanation to the real, natural world?
oh my god THANK YOU i thought i was being delusional for being the only one to think that this is absolutely the most selfish, self-centred, and egotistical thing to say. "i think this is stupid and could never happen so that makes it objectively bad" like WHAT???? what the fuck is wrong with you?
You really have a gift for ranting while still staying eloquent and making all the good points, haha. I personally enjoyed Babel, but it hasn't stayed with me since finishing it. And even though I did have a good time reading it, the fact that it hasn't left an impact already says enough for me, because this had every potential to be an incredibly thought-provoking and memorable story... and yet it isn't. It's mostly because of the mediocre characterwork for me, they all just felt very flat and I didn't feel invested in any of their personal journeys. Anyway, I loved hearing about your critiques and it definitely made me reassess my thoughts on this story. Don't get me wrong, I am still happy that I had a good time with this book when I read it (I was all here for the in-detail linguistics stuff), but I think it's okay to change your opinion on a book after hearing about someone else's gripes (which you personally hadn't picked up on). Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts, I loved what you had to say about this one!!
Thank you for this. I agree 100% And I add that the book much of the time felt condescending to me as a reader. I was soooo disappointed in this book. I didn’t hear you mention how the characters often speak in 21st century idiom-I caught this more than once. I love how you put it that it’s more like an essay than a fantasy. Makes sense.
YES! What a great review. I wanted to love this book.....but it was like chewing on cardboard. You nailed every wrong thing about it and in such an articulate way. The entire video I was nodding in agreement hahaha
Interesting review. Confirms what I feared about this book. When I saw this book's the tag line of "Babel - a thematic response to The Secret History and a tonal response to Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell" I thought that R.F. Kuang must have really leveled up as a writer since The Poppy War trilogy to pull that off.
I loved this in depth review!! I was one of the people who did not enjoy this book. I actually DNF’d it but mainly because I thought it was boring and very repetitive. I’m also not a fan of footnotes but if an author is going to use them I would need the footnotes to add useful information but in this book with as far as I got they were not useful, they just kept taking me out of the story to read them. I also like your definition of what dark academia is or should be!
My goodness, finally someone who reflects my feelings on this book. I cannot understand how this book has won the Nebula Award and is receiving such high praise. I really liked the themes and ideas in the book, but the delivery. Ugh It was such a painful read.
I am totally with you on the spoken magic - like some kind of mystic Alexa ME : "Play Fast Car by Tracy Chapman" NATURE : "You said: 'Cast Fireball at lazy postman' " whooosssh!
your point about Robin's worldview and he being raised in England from a young age - that would def shape his ideas. although i was already unhappy with the characterization in this book, that point had not come to my mind. anyway, i'm def subscribing now !
also in a book about a secret society it's wild how little we see from it and we even have Griffin justifying in narrative - like this work is boring actually! - Ms Kuang this is fiction give us the exciting parts plez
I have been reading this over the past month and are only half way, yet I have happily picked up multiple other books and roared through them in days. Truth is I am likely to even squeeze in several trilogies from other authors before I finally finish Babel Definitely a book that has been crazily over hyped I also enjoy reading actual history books so I will continue on as I enjoy the translation information about the origin of words, but I haven’t connected to a single character in this book Great review
The specific footnote you mentioned about Griffin's fight with his former friend was the one that made me almost drop the book. Not only does it feel like Kuang pulled this piece of background info out of her bum that very moment, no, she was also too lazy to rewrite previous chapters to let the reader find out about this friendship organically. I was so mad when this happened. Like girl, you'e just gonna tell me the emotional significance of this scene in a FOOTNOTE? The disrespect, I just can't.
This is a fantastic review and I largely agree with your points. I'm not bothered by magic words as a magic system, but I did think it odd while reading the book that silver magic hardly changed anything from real history. However, that didn't detract from my reading experience. I just suspended my disbelief but it's perfectly understandable why that would bother a reader. While I overall liked Babel (I rated it 4 stars as I found the discussion of words and translation very fascinating and I enjoy linguistics), for me it was the characters that brought down the story. You articulated weaknesses that I hadn't considered and I found myself nodding in agreement. Kuang relies too much on telling versus showing and simply isn't a great character writer - at least not yet. Also, yes, it was very distasteful to call out The Secret History and Jonathan Strange. I wonder if Kuang is getting way too overpraised in her inner circle. She has talent, but she's young and still needs to hone her craft for what she wants to do.
yeah, I worry that this level of hype and success so early in her career when she's far from achieving the kind of brilliance she's comparing herself to will hinder any inclination to grow/improve in her later work
So spot on. Wanted to love this book having seen the hype, but gave up after 200 pages for many of the reasons you describe. The world building and character development that happened in those 200 pages could have been done in about 5. And done better.
Babel for me was just... Lazy. "Hey guys, colonialism was bad," was about as deep as the book ever was. The characters lacked nuance just like the incredible simple breakdown for colonialism. There wasn't a SINGLE moment while reading the book where I felt Kuang was utilizing an interesting setting and magic system to tell a thematically complex narrative. Instead, I just left the book thinking "wow, what a waste of a good idea."
The complete opposite for me. The entire title being "Babel or the Necessity of Violence" is an absolute accurate description of Robin's story. I think this book truly delved deep into the colonial identity, and Robin's identity as a Chinese boy that was taken from his home and reconstructed as an Oxfordian. For me, every moment in this book utilised the setting of Oxford, England and then briefly, Canton as well as the magic of "silver working" being intrinsically linked to language & translation. Everything tied together. I left the book thinking it had truly shaped a part of me. How interesting that we had polar opposite opinions of the same book!
You make some good points. I really loved Babel, but your explanation of the magic system in that the silver bar itself has to understand the current common usage of all languages and interpret that and know exactly which object the user desires to use the magic toward really stumped me, because you’re so right. I guess I was able to suspend my belief while reading because I majored in linguistics so I really enjoyed the magic languages aspect of the novel, but the questions you asked made me look at the magic system in a new light. I do agree with you that the book was a vessel for Kuang to communicate certain ideas and concepts and she wrote the book in a way to help her share those specific thoughts even if it didn’t always make sense to the novel’s central plot. I still love Babel, but I’ll probably think about it differently next time I read it. I appreciate your thorough and intelligent review; thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts!
You seem to take all the mystery and fun out of the concept of magic by having to apply some sort of "scientific" reasoning to it as you comprehend reality thus missing the entire point of the supernatural, the idea that words can hold supernatural power is essential to the idea of magik, even in the Bible it states "In the beginning was the WORD...".
I think it comes down to the type of magic system someone prefers. Quite a lot of fantasy readers - myself included - do prefer a hard magic system over a soft magic system because, at least in my opinion, it makes it a lot more interesting and nuanced. It's nice to have a more 'scientific' approach to magic because it usually reduces the risk of it simply serving as a deus ex machina because "everything is possible", without a believable explanation. In Babel, I felt like the author wanted/tried to write a hard magic system but didn't execute it properly because, as Liene mentioned, some of the explanations didn't quite make sense, or weren't fully elaborated on. In the end, it's just a preference & if someone knows they aren't bothered by the execution of a magic system, then that won't deter them from picking up this book.
To be precise, WORD in the gospel of John which you referenced is Greek for Logos. It holds a much more weighty and rich multifaceted meaning than simply the English “word.”
The characters indeed felt like vessels for arguments and points of view that the author wanted to highlight. I've noticed with young writers, that when they write stories set in the past, or write retellings of mythology, they put contemporary ways of thinking in there and it irks me so much. It is clear that Kuang has done a lot of research for this book, so why did the dialogue between the characters feel so anachronistic? I also agree with you that there was a lack of character development. I found Robin to be a quite boring character and it is indeed unrealistic that he has the worldview that he has in the circumstances that he is brought up in. The characters were also very clearly either 'good' or 'bad', which doesn't make for a particularly engaging story.
I enjoyed it more as an essay and less as a work of fiction. Once I realised that the characters were just vehicles for polemic, I judged it against totally different criteria. So I came away liking it on the whole, but I don't disagree with a single thing you said here, you nailed it honestly :P
I can't judge it by a different metric because my brain is like "no, you decided to be a novel, that was your choice, and so we're reading you like a novel and, as a novel, you're not great..." 😂
At a certain point i switched to reading it like i read Plato's symposium. It didn't make it better for me though since there was no real development of thought. The message was clear after a few chapters.
I love your rant reviews Liene! You always articulate exactly what I want to be able to say haha 😅 (also I was so bored even hearing you explain the magic system so don't think I would make it far into Babel haha) :)
Hated the footnotes with a passion. The author was hovering over my shoulder, ready to beat me on the head in the middle of trying to read this novel. Any writers reading this: DO NOT DO THIS.
honestly, as a linguist, i cannot fully express how much this magic system annoys me. i understand how languages and history of them can seem like such amazing, interesting things; how knowing and having deep understand of multiple languages can feel magical at times because of all the nuances and little differences. but this approach to it is just not it.
So I’m a physicist and I’m sitting right beside you in the annoyed boat. Sentient silver!!! There are SO many ways that could have been fixed. The difference between you and I might be that there isn’t a conversation going on now about the properties of silver and there is a conversation about colonialization, language, and translation. I think your team wins this one. 😊
@@arlissbunny it still feels wrong to make anything, silver or not, to understand smth we ppl ourselves spend years studying and learning ang figuring out, you know. so you're telling me i've spent years to get a degree in a field and only scratch the surface of what can be learnt about smth when silver knows it just for being, oh, idk, silver? what else does it know? the answers tot he creation of the universe? is it going to share? xDD
I am agreeing with you @Anzhela Kocheshkova. I think there is a lot more that could and should have been said in regard to language in this book. I don’t think it was done well. You are right. I’m just saying I’m glad people might be starting to think about the role of language and translation in colonization. I said nothing about smithing silver. I’m a physicist. The properties of physical objects are interesting, whatever the object, but Babel calls upon silver to do and be something it simply can not. Sentience can be conferred on many things: animals, trees etc via magic systems but, for me at least, making an element or mineral or a rock sentient is a bit much and is not deserving of the kind of important conversation needed around translation. I find Babel to be valuable as a starting point for readers to learn/think more about your field. Maybe it will inspire more young people will become linguists not because the book is right but because the book gets them thinking about the power of language. Maybe? Meanwhile, the hard sciences, which have been under assault since the start of the pandemic, were left to wither beneath the hand of a lazy author who did not do even the smallest bit of research around the element upon which she conferred all the power. It’s annoying.
@@arlissbunny yes, i agree with you too. and i do hope that at least this book might get ppl talking and have interest in things the book touches upon. but i also think that neither of those fields weren't done justice. which might be a weird thing to say since it's not a non-fictio book but then again, it feels like Kuang wanted to actually write non-fiction anyway, so idk. be that languages or making an object magical. from a story standpoint or worldbuilding standpoint -- it's not like physical objects were never used as a magical containers before or smth. she could've made it so that you put some magic into silver using language for example [since she really wanted to combine those] and than some properties of silver [like the fact that silver is supposedly purifies things or at least is believed to do so] mixed with magic would allow you to do smth more with it, especially since silver was seen as magical by ppl through out history. so make it be an amplifier or a container or smth. if you want it to understand smth though... idk. it feels like a disservice to both languages and silver. so i was just saying i can sympathise with you being annoyed as well. like, are you not satisfied with what silver already is, Kuang? invent smth new then. 😂
@@Angela41541 to everything you just said, yes. You also made me laugh ( in a good way) because I do think Kuang wanted to write a non-fiction book but decided there was a lot more money and reach in fiction. ;-)
thanks for this video, i just finished and i was so disappointed because the book didnt move anything in me. I thought first, I am too old but I found nothing in the book worth reading. I pushed through but constantly was waiting for the wow effect which could explain the great reviews :-)
Babel to me is so unbelievably boring and to me there is not one interesting thing about it. I see the author put a lot of work into the book, with the footnotes and all of the research. However, it reads like a university essay that just lectures you on and on. The authors writing clearly doesn’t work for me because I’ve tried three of their books including an arc of Yellowface that releases next year and haven’t enjoyed one. I think the author has a message that she wants to put in the book but doesn’t weave it into the story naturally. The message is just right in front of you and there is no nuance. I can’t speak on the magic system because I didn’t get that far into the book. I think it’s so ridiculous how people were being called white supremacists on TikTok because they didn’t like or didn’t want to read Babel. I felt such a huge pressure to like it but I just don’t think it’s good. The characters were paper thin and I really don’t see what people are enjoying. I know this book was a best seller but I’ve seen a lot of negative or mid reviews. I love watching your rants and it’s fun to see that we often dislike the same books. I’ve agreed with the majority of the rants/reviews you’ve done.
No, I agree wholeheartedly with what you said. As far as people being called white supremacists of tik tok for not like the book, I find that weird. I am a black girl, and I most definitely hated the book. I understood the themes, but there was no substance to do the book. The characters were absolutely one-dimensional and there was no plot, just “smart” vibes.
Ha… why review popular book that turns out boring .. life is short so choose wisely I notice most review are “celebrity” book base on the most “popular kids”
I needed to find a video that fully explored my disappointment with this novel and thank god I found this. I really thought I was alone in not liking Babel and it’s really validating that you had the exact same points I had when subjecting my friends to my rants on this book. I also think Griffin should’ve been the main character of this series. He had all the flavor when it came to a compelling background and a complex outlook on the world. He had the exact same upbringing as Robin, but the difference is that it’s clear he had some wavering thoughts on Hermès’ purpose and his duty as Lovell’s son. But he disappears by the halfway point and only really comes back as a minor character. And the fact that some of his experiences were reduced to footnotes makes me so angry.
Yesterday was a birthday of Ursula LeGuin - one of the true masters when it comes the craft of world-building. And a woman that (despite her beliefs in taoism, harmonious living and evils of current economic systems) would never soapbox to you.
I found myself wishing this was a nonfiction book about translation and colonialism instead of a fiction story. The characters were flat and the second half of the book really abandoned the academic story for an attempt at an action story. It bored me. Wasn’t at all like The Secret History or JS&MN. I also found Babel really predictable. Very disappointing.
I can repeat all the arguments you make here and say how much I agree with those but that seems a bit repetitive. I will just say that this was a wonderful review, a review as it ought to be done. You're able to articulate some many issues in a clear way which I would never be able to do. Thank you very much for this !
I enjoyed the book more than you did, but I agree with your critiques on some level. The characters feeling flat was definitely the biggest flaw for me.
I agree with a few points. Also made me think that as someone who speaks both English and Mandarin and some bits of other languages, the reading and decoding experience was more enjoyable and natural.
I read the summary on the inside of the sleeve, the first half of it, thought it sounded imaginative and interesting. The second half just made the story sound super contrived and obvious. It signals that it’s more interested in saying a certain thing than it is in naturally telling a story. Piranesi has some really interesting ideas about the ancient past and what our relationship to it should be but it’s not glaringly obvious and contrived. I was initially interested in reading this because I’ve heard it’s magical realism and I really like Susanna Clarke but I just kinda eye rolled at the summary 🙄
Excellent points that I did not even consider. My main issue with Babel is the characters as well. Kuang's prose is delightful, but her plot and characterization fall so flat, it's almost pointless to have either. Her cast is far too large, and we're expected to remember names of characters a hundred pages prior, and many of them disappear toward the end. What's the point of them, honestly? And I could not remember for the life of me where some of the characters at the end were introduced prior--or if they were. As for Robin--he had strange outbursts of anger. He seldom thinks of his deceased mother after he leaves, but then somehow, this is a compelling reason to commit suicide and murder? How come there was no internalization of her death? Why did we only see anger when the story called for it? And why do we pause for a linguistics lecture just before one of the most pivotal points of the story, completely erasing any tension? With Letty--why is it that she, as a white woman who is oppressed (and clearly knows it) the one who turns? Especially when she's in love with Ramy? Why do we never see the others patiently explain to her their troubles--but instead, we're simply told? Why doesn't she understand in the end? She seemed like a metaphor for all white people, except that isn't all white people. Especially when we discover Professor Craft sacrificed herself to bring Babel down. Isn't this countering the very idea that Kuang is trying to make about white folk? I think it would have been far more compelling if Robin had been the one to turn against his crew (and not just to cover his ass, but actually turn and believe what Babel was saying). Perhaps he understands later what happens. Perhaps he doesn't. But that would be a more interesting argument to just how deep-seated colonialsm is. Also, the fall of Babel was entirely predicatable--as the Biblical tower of Babel also falls... so there was no startling revelation there. I think Kuang had some marvelous ideas, but failed spectacularly on their delivery. I wanted to like this book. I wanted every edition of the pretty covers. Now I can hardly look at the one I have because it was such a waste of a month of reading (because it took me an entire month to swim through it). Anywho--great review. It was very in depth and intellectually driven. It's nice to see other readers who delve more deeply into novels than just for surface-level entertainemnt. I look forward to watching others by you!
Love the passion behind the review! I already purchased Babel, not sure if I would have if I watched your review first, so I will read it. I'm still hoping to like it but...☹
I said this and I'll say it again, I'm balck, arab, muslim and a woman all together. And everything you said was a breath of fresh air. I loved how you articulated your thoughts and shed light on things I didn't even noitce before. Something that you didn't talk about as much is how morally corrupt white people are written to be in this book. I persoally hated that.
PREACH, finally another rant that can join mine in the bookish sphere. I agree with the majority of your points, what characters? What plot? The handling of themes in this book was so surface level I was disappointed. Also your face while you are doing the mental gymnastics to try to explain the magic...priceless lmao
Now that I finally finished this, I wondered how this was meant to speak against The Secret History and JS & MN. So many of your points I had as I read this. I thought Robin would have been better as a sympathetic to colonialism until going back to Canton. This book was really about The Opium War and its impact - but didn’t quite do that. I can see how this had the potential to speak about those events and the present making it a classic. Alas, it was just polemic.
I actually enjoyed the magic system a lot, found it a really fun concept, even though I could also sense the problems that you described, but I guess I could more easily suspend my disbelief. But now as I think about it, I could argue that I understand this "meaning lost in translation" affecting the silver in the sense that the mind of the scholar is the place that actually triggers this effect on the silver it manipulates. P.S. The modern understanding of social issues and the eloquence these 4 used to discuss them was the most offputing thing for me.
personally, I can't read the magic system in that way because silver gets destroyed and used up by more dangerous pairings, and is being stored and hoarded by the empire - if it's the mind of the scholar that determines how the silver behaves, then why would translation and inscription on the silver be necessary at all?
Wonderful discovery that you find early HP 🙂 and later not so much. I think 1-4 are quite good and 5- someone who got too far over the skis and is now flailing in slow motion trying increasingly desperately to relocate that Telemark landing. LoL
Hard magic systems arent magic at all, and have very little in common with historical forms of magic which are presumably were we derive this concept to begin with. I think the scifi-ification of fantasy is due for some pushback.
I think there's also a troublesome conversation to be had here about an author who is purportedly trying to show how colonialism appropriates people/culture/races/ideas to suit their ends...yet making such bland, flat, stereotypical and unfleshed characters nothing but a vehicle for the author's personal agendas, essentially making them "others" to their own stories they're attempting to rewrite by their retaliation. It seems like every chance she gets she undermines her own system and is locked in this cyclical of meaningless gibberish that undoes all her (what could be thought-provoking) points and critiques. Thank you for this honest review and.always keeping it real, thoughtful, and logical. I appreciate and love your channel so much!
I was bored the whole time I was reading this book. It did feel like reading a college lecture. The characterization felt a little heavy handed at times as well, very one-note. I really enjoyed the Poppy War when I read it. I've only read it once, and I don't see myself re-reading them and if I did I don't think I'd like them as much.
I wrapped a newspaper 'round my head So I'd look like I was deep I said some Mumbo Jumbos Then I told him he was goin' to sleep I robbed his rings and pocket watch And everything else I found I had that sucker hypnotized He couldn't even make a sound I proceeded to tell him his future then As long as he was hanging around I said, "The price of meat has just gone up and your old lady has just gone down" Frank Zappa, Cosmik Debris (sorry magical words made me think of that)
Babel was my only 1 star book of 2022. i agree with all the points you make on the video, even if I kinda enjoyed the magic system, just for the idea behind it. To your video I would only to add that Kwang seems to dislike conflict in her book. All the conflicts in the book are "fake conflicts" proved by the fact that the characters involved (mostly Robin) can just walk away from them. And more often than not they walk away. On a story leven this is really, really hard to pull off. And Kwang fails at it, spectacularly.
About your disclaimer on the blurb drawing comparison to The secret history and Jonathan Strange : the blurb is not written by the author, but by the editor. Most of the time, authors have no say about these things that are completely the job of the editor. So there is nothing egotistical in that
Never thought of magic words that way, but for magic users that summon the power of superior beings, like how Doctor Strange's spells (in the comics) call upon the power of the Vishanti or any number of cosmic gods that are sentient and require the right words in the right order with some other specifications. In other cases, like Harry Potter, I always thought of magic words like something that awakens the magic power inherent to the magic user because the magic user believes those words are the right ones (basically, the words are not magical, the person is). But yeah, believing that magic itself, as a "force" is sentient and preocupied with sentence structure is a bit ridiculous. "Helo, I'm The Magic in this world, I'll be your proofreader this evening." 🤣
Any chance that silver was chosen in any part because of CS Lewis' description of Myth as "lies breathed through silver" or JRRT's quoting of Lewis' dicta as an intro to his "Mythopoeia" poem?
@@arlissbunny thanks for your response... I have not read Babel (outside of the Bible Babel) and was just wondering if anything in it suggested a nod toward Lewis or Tolkien.
I actually really liked Babel but I do agree with a lot of your points. I agree that I wouldn’t classify it as dark academia, I would say it’s more magic school setting but there’s not much magic either. It’s just “school setting”.
Started reading Babel last month. Only 290 pages through. I have to force myself to pick it up every few nights because I’m determined to finish it. Before I picked it up, I didn’t hear a SINGLE negative review. Everyone was hyping it up so much, and I was reading it thinking that something must be wrong with me. I wasn’t reading the amazing story everybody else was. You, however, have read my mind and pinned down so many of my thoughts. Silver magic has no effect on the world or history? Cmon! The characters? I don’t care about em! The pacing? Awful and probably the worst aspect of this book! Kuang’s mastery of the written word is obvious. She is eloquent, intelligently spoken and articulate. The sheer amount of research that went into this book is also incredible. But unfortunately, while the ingredients are all there, the final product just isn’t what it should be. I can tell already that it’s going to be a struggle to get through the rest of the book. I’m hoping my opinion will be changed and I’ll be pleasantly surprised by the last section of the book, but I’m doubtful. I think maybe the fact I’ve read it over such a long period of time isn’t helping, because the story is becoming disjointed due to the long breaks I take between chapters. I honestly just can’t force myself to read it any more frequently than I already am
I disliked the novel too, but "Magic words are inherently ridiculous" is one of the silliest things I've ever heard with regards to criticism of fantasy literature.
Have you read Earthsea series? That one is all about magic words being the true name of something. Curious if that worked for you. I liked Babel (thought the magic was clever) but I also like a good rant.
I haven't read Earthsea (yet) but that sounds quite similar to the naming magic in Kingkiller which I basically wrote an essay about to my patrons in discord explaining why that works for me 😂
I hate when magic systems rely on the ignorance of the reader so they don't go "hey, couldn't the characters use the magic system this way and prevent this conflict?" because they don't know much of how it works. At least in Babel, we know in painstakingly detail /how/ it works, but not the full extent of the application of it, because not even the characters - who view the magic system as something that can have potentially infinite uses - know exactly the limitations of such a system. When reading the novel, I was constantly thinking "why not create a match-pair that heightens memory or slows time so the students can study better? Why not have match-pairs that can act up on other match-pairs so there wouldn't be a need for continual maintenance? Why not create a match-pair that acts as a radio and another to mimic proximity so Robin didn't have to stand in the tower when it fell?" Because the magic system only worked when it was convenient for the plot. You're telling me you have match-pairs that can make people suspectable to revealing information but not one that can alter people's perception of war to prevent the need for the strike in the first place?
there are so many holes in the system and the bandaids she wrote in just made it more nonsensical and created more holes - the magic would need to be scrapped and written fresh for it to work imo
That's interesting, after watching your dark academia vlog I thought yes that's putting into words what I think da is defined by but when I read babel I thought it fit that definition since the academic institution they are a part of is economically and I suppose culturally tied to colonialism which is a major theme but I never considered dark academia from the obsession angle before, makes sense as a bar for this (sub?) Genre of books I think a lot of other books marketed as da dont usually throw themselves into the academic setting as much so babel felt more passionate about the topic of study within the book On a slightly related note, I'm rereading the secret history bc I first read it when I was much younger i still enjoyed it but I'll probs get more out of it now
Victoire felt completely over shadowed by letty, we got so little of her throughout the novel. I do think Robin had more development to me and I did like him as a character, ramy and victoire felt like missed opportunities which was frustrating I think the only part of contention was on violence as a tool of revolution and the evolution of robins thoughts on that and griff kind of pushing at Robin's thoughts on this was interesting and the novel should have had more of that, would have given the novel more momentum if like you said they're exposed to the world at oxford and it was more of a shock to the system. Instead a lot of the ideas of this novel were fully formed in the minds of the characters from the beginning
Besides anything else " everyone " seems to be some kind of " praise cult" about this book. WAY TOO OVER HYPED Please no disclaimers you read the book & you are interested enough to let us know your thoughts on the matter. And I still truly believe a bad review is as important as a good review because we are all different & come from different perspectives. Could it actually of been as great as people expected it to be before it was read by anybody - realistically doubtful. So my one word for Bable is disappointment.
I own the standard U.K. paperback edition and there's no blurb regarding Kuang referring to those other books nor there's any comment in the acknowledgment section either. I think that quote was included in the Waterstone edition only. I didn't bother to understand the magic system to be honest, to me this book is more a dystopian historical fiction with "some magic" Oh I skipped the footnotes, never read footnotes on any book 😂 not even at college
It's funny, this book lost me before chapter 1 as well but it wasn't because of the blurb, it was the author's note. She was simultaneously humble bragging about going to Oxford, while preemptively calling other Oxford students assholes for expecting a more accurate description of Oxford from a fantasy novel. It was the most unnecessary thing I've seen at the start of a novel, Babel was one of my most anticipated books of that year and I had a bad taste in my mouth before I read 200 words.
Great discussion. I was so disappointed by the characters just being ideological mouthpieces. Agree 💯 about the issues with alternate history in this novel. In particular, being set in 1830 makes zero sense with the characters she depicts - colonialism and racism blah blah. Setting in 1930 would make more sense for the Indian character at least. Now finally for the JS&MN and TSH comparisons...just straight up ridiculous. Nope nope nope. My two suggestions for dark academia which may be worth a look into: The Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco Possession by AS Byatt
Just on the majick system you were describing, what do you think about when casting a spell, it required a component, a specific movement and an incantation? Would love to know your thoughts on that.
I think I addressed this, but if not, I feel about that the exact same way - if the motions are used simply to aid the user to concentrate, focus, remember, etc. then it's fine, but if it's a requirement for magic to happen like a cheat code irl (hand moves left, right, right, left, up, down, swoosh) it's just as ridiculous as magic words
I agree that i really didn't like the magic system. Like you said, how is the world absolutely no different then our own world? I just felt like it made no sense. And i got really annoyed reading how these "bars" were keeping the enslaved Africans "passive" in the new world. Like HUH?? With all the rebellions happening left and right??? But i disagree w your analysis of lettie, all the characters did fall short, but lettie was painfully realistic from start to finish. A white daughter of a relatively powerful man during British imperialism? It would've been more odd if she WEREN'T racist. And for that i would've needed an explanation. But i despise how Victoire was so obviously ignored in character building and I never liked Robin much. But he too was kinda realistic in the sense that, as a non Black poc, racism and white supremacy didn't really bother him TOO much until it started happening to his own ppl (eg the opium issue) The entire book he blatantly ignored all the anti Black racism and that very much extended to his "friend" Victoire. Cuz how tf are you not noticing how VASTLY different she was being treated? But you can notice when it happens to Rami cuz you have the hots for him. The book was overall fine, i rated it above average, but it wasn't the earth shattering experience i had hoped for.
[chanting] SHEESELLS-SALLY-WOOKIEPAPA! You are a chicken now, Liene! ------------------------------------------------- Spooky apartments. In spooky apartments Spooky townspeople live spooky way. It crawls up walls with mold and soot Winter terror, dark agony. Mumble from morning. Babble and rave, That it is rain, expensive, that this or that. They walk a little, they will sit a little, And all this is specter. All this is phantom. They'll check the time, check the pockets Brush up the tie, drape the flaps In full dignity step out - to the ground, So known, so round. And here they go, tightly buttoned, They look to the right, they look to the left. And looking - they see everything separately That the house... that Johnny... that the horse... that the tree... Like a cake they hold a newspapers And they chew, they chew it into a pulp, Until bloated with paper, Their stuffed heads swell up thickly. And again they say Ford... that cinema... That God... that Russia... radio, sports, war... The monstrous nonsense grows in layers, Into the jungle of news they float like ghosts. The head s bloated and ever heavier Hanging blindly toward the night. They crawl under beds, they sniff the thieves, Hit their heads against the cold night potties. Again they check pockets and tickets, Pants smartly mended on the buttocks, Holy property, sacred acquisitions, Your own, exclusive, hard-work acquired. They pray: "from sudden death... from war... hunger... grant us rest" And fall asleep with mouths on their chests Spooky townspeople in spooky apartments. ------ Terrible translation (Google plus 10mins me - and I can't write ;-) ) of great a poem - but much of modern culture makes me think about that immortal line (written in 1933 by Polish poet Julian Tuwim and published in a collection "Gypsy Bible") "And looking - they see everything separately". This is where we are there is no center to hold on to.
So yes to everything you said with one exception. I do think there is an important place for soapbox novels. I don’t believe the majority of readers, and particularly the majority of younger readers, would be willing to read an essay on the use of language and translation as a key weapon of colonialization. Babel is an opportunity to put in front of a huge number of people information about language they would not otherwise uptake. Could it have been done using actual character development instead of just a faint patina of it? Yes. Could it have been done without making silver sentient or at the very least presenting a process whereby some silver is made to be sentient? Absolutely. But did it deliver on Kuang’s project? I think it did because despite the ridiculous challenge she made to ASH & JS&MrN, her project was to deliver a lecture on language to a large number of people and start conversations outside academia. That she has done.
except I would think the goal would not be simply to get these topics in front of people, but to engage them, to open minds/eyes, to persuade, and because the narrative was so badly executed it missed its shot to land with the audience it did succeed in addressing
@@LienesLibrary I don't disagree. I just suspect that the number of other books that have the potential to spark this conversation with younger readers and will also receive this kind of marketing push is going to be a multiple of zero. Sadly.
Have you watched Hitchcock's "Rope"? It sounds like the content would match your idea of Dark Academia, though I am not sure if the aesthetic would be considered 'dark academia.' It's an interesting movie and was filmed without takes.
I always blame blurbs on publishers and, honestly, never read them as they tend to be bad... That blurb sounds like it's trying to echo an academic article. Many academic articles are responses to other academic articles. I didn't love this book. I didn't hate it. I'm glad that this book will hopefully make people think about the themes addressed in the book, but it wasn't a particularly enjoyable book for me (I didn't really love the characters. The magic, while I enjoyed it as I love language and the concept of the subtle difference between words in different languages, it didn't feel necessary.) I would rather have read a history book about the industrial revolution in Britain and the East India company. And a philosophical survey on revolutionary theory. On the magic system, I don't think it's meant to be silver understanding things, it's more that meaning exists apart from language. Almost as a natural force and the silver interfaces with that force of meaning in the universe.
that understanding of silver/language in the book I would have pretty much the same thematic problems with because it is human beings that give language/words their power and meaning, to suggest it is a power unto itself is to misunderstand language and what makes it so fascinating and ever-changing
