I really appreciate all the comments here - very well thought out comments and discussion! But I wasn't kidding in the video - mention ANY name and I'll delete the post. People are asking what caused this topic - nothing! I keep a list of topics, and I do my best to talk about them when nothing of note has happened recently, so that people don't attempt to tie what I'm saying to a specific instance.
...and in turn I must say I really appreciate your "calm head, when *all about seem to be losing theirs". Yours remains a significant voice in our hobby, and I appreciate that you accept the responsibility that comes with that. To set a reasonable and nuanced tone, which encourages respectful dialogue. I've seen a couple of attempts in the past, to directly drag the dice tower into the US socio-political trench warfare, and I respect how you've showed great restraint in avoiding getting drawn into those battles. When voices of moderation are seen as 'the enemy', then that's a troubling position. You appear to aim to 'do the right thing', but without blowing a trumpet about it, nor attacking others for perceived lesser standards. It's a brilliant approach and really shows you take your role in the industry seriously. I am glad you set such a great example for the hobby. * not all, but there are times when a hot topic starts a flame war, that it may feel that way
I really only have a couple of things that prevent me from buying/supporting a piece of media: Did the person that stands to gain monetary value from my money commit a horrific crime against someone? My second is: Does that person publicly and constantly attack people that are just trying to live their lives. I am the primary game purchaser in our group, however, if another member buys something, I will play it, the sale is already done. I don’t feel the need to rag on someone for their decision, the Internet has made information easy for everyone to find. On the flip side, just because my values line up with a person/company, I won’t necessarily make a purchase or sing praise. There is a company that I follow, I pay for a subscription service to get discounts for them, but I won’t sit and tell you that every game they make will be perfect for you, heck, I don’t like every game they’ve made. I will be happy to tell you about their game and let you come to that conclusion yourself. I just really like their public statement of where they stand in support of certain things. Tom, as a final comment, you seem very level headed. I get the feeling that we probably disagree politically on a few things, but that if we discussed these, that discussion would be civil. I wish more people could handle that in this day and age.
There is no difference between you paying for a subscription because you 'like their public statement of where they stand in support of certain things' or buying their games.
" I don’t feel the need to rag on someone for their decision, the Internet has made information easy for everyone to find." This is the key thing and maybe should have been emphasised more in the video. Where *you* draw the line is where *you* draw the line. If you don't even want to be in the same room as a game made by (insert designer) then that's your choice. But for the love of God, spare everyone else the moral lecture. And that includes "educating people who might not know" which is really only a cover for "make people bad for not believing the same things that I believe".
“Constantly attacking people who are just trying to live their lives,” is definitely where I draw the line for myself. It’s good to see someone else say it, because I wasn’t certain how to express that feeling. Thanks for posting this.
I often think of the phrase “Never meet your heroes” since, if I’m honest with myself, learning more about someone almost never makes me appreciate their work more, but it can often make me appreciate it less.
Maybe to some extent we should learn not to idolize people at all. Regardless of how good someone is at something they are still a person, and people overall are a very flawed species. I often like to say that no one is perfect and everyone is corruptible under the right circumstances.
@@TheMr02drop That's far too cynical. Being aware people aren't perfect is reasonable, expecting everyone to have done heinous things that would put their work in a bad light is downright paranoid, and needing people to be perfect in order to praise them is unrealistic.
@@enjoythestruggle I am not saying that all people have done some secretly heinous things. Praising someone is much different than idolizing someone. When you idolize someone you believe that they incapable of doing wrong. In one of my other comments I talked about Kevin Spacey. I praised his acting ability and anything he has been accused of in his personal life hasn't made it so I can't enjoy his movies. I guess a more historical example would be the founding fathers. Brilliant in some ways, deeply flawed in other ways. Should you meet the people you respect like movie stars or board game designers or athletes? Sure. But don't put them on a pedestal so high that they can't be criticized either.
@@enjoythestruggle "everyone is corruptible under the right circumstances" is a very different thing than "expecting everyone to have done heinous things".
If I already own a game, and I find out that the designer/publisher is trash, it’s not gonna affect my decision-making about whether or not to keep that game. However, if it’s a game that I don’t own yet, I don’t have a problem with silently boycotting it. I won’t buy or play it, but I also won’t tell others what they should or shouldn’t do. This perspective is helped along by the fact that our hobby has sooooooo many options. Plenty of other games to invest my time and money in.
Yeah I'm in a similar position. There's *way* more games I'd like than I have time and money for anyways, so whatever reason I can find to make a decision - and disliking the author for personal reasons certainly can be one - works for me.
I enjoy playing a lot of historical games, and these are often a hot bed for controversy. Are all the depicted parties being portrayed accurately or fairly? Was the proper research done into the topic? Did the creators appropriate the subject matter in an unethical way? Is the game glorifying something it shouldn’t? Is the game ignoring an important aspect of the history? Ultimately it’s up to the creators to do their due diligence and to craft something with respect. It’s up to each of us as consumers to determine if they did so, and to highlight if we think they failed. What I like about historical games are that they often aim to generate a conversation, and give us an entry point into learning more about the subject matter. If they can accomplish that, and incite someone to pick up a book on the topic, I think it’s a win.
100%. I enjoy historical games because I get to learn something new. However, I do know of some designers who have said there are games made that reflect their own biases. In those cases, I just skip them.
@@RollDiceTakeNames Totally agree. When there are excuses made in the rulebook about why something ugly was omitted, or why they chose to leave out an important element of the history, this can often be a red flag.
A lot of people don’t want to have these discussions but honestly it’s silly to avoid them. A film that depicts slavery in a ahistorical and dehumanizing way would be called out and a game wouldn’t be any different. The Clean Wehrmacht myth may very well be pushed more through games and video games in this decade than any other artistic medium and that’s very dangerous if we simply ignore it.
@@RollDiceTakeNamesin historical games, I often feel as much a student as a gamer. Therefore biased games can be an interesting hmmm viewpoint. And usually pretty easily broken apart by other studies. And I see that a part of learning. So apart from some fringe cases, it is mostly all interesting 😀
I think the bigger issue is when people try to impose their opinions of what to do about an artist on other people (as Tom mentioned), instead of letting everyone decide for themselves.
This is how I try to approach things. Se7en and Usual Suspects are two of my favorite movies, even though they have actors who did things I don't agree with.
@@channingjonesI agree that can be a big problem, but like all things it’s not black and white. If an artists is actively harming someone, especially if they’re popular/have a big reach and a good marketing team, people may feel that silently not buying their game may not be enough to stop the harm. Especially when it starts to snowball and embolden others to act out in harmful ways. But I think there are definitely more productive ways to stop the harm than just yelling at someone online because they bought a game. You can still have that conversation if you believe you need to but human nature dictates you’re more likely to be listened to if you’re respectful, open, and don’t act like a twat.
People are quick to condemn and exile someone from a community for something they did, and in some cases even something they didn’t do; but I haven’t ever seen a redemption arc… we condemn but never forgive and that’s crazy.
I think that’s a myth. It’s rare for someone to really lose everything, they often come back, most people aren’t actually trying to make amends, and even if they do I would say that they’re entitled to their life but not a platform which seems to be what they really want.
I think it depends on the size and intimacy of the community. Like loads of people have been exiled from Hollywood, sometimes for truly awful acts and are allowed to come back after a few years of obscurity. Now, the in-group and out-groups in Hollywood are a different relationship - the in-group in Holllywood is just the people who make the movies and TV shows and we're on the outside looking in. The nature of parasocial relationships there means it can hut a lot if your favourite actor is caught making a racist rant on a dashcam or whatever, or you're angry their role in that big franchise is cut or recast, but that person doesn't know you. But in places like tabletop games, comics, SF/Fantasy novels and so on, there's more of a mingling of the in and out groups. A lot of fans become pros, most pros have a day job and aren't as insulated from the real world as big-name actors. We hang out with these people at cons, we're often friends. So when there's a controversy inside those spaces, it hurts in a more personal, more visceral way. And that's a lot harder to forgive.
@@Ad3trInteresting. I think everyone is entitled to a platform. But I'm a firm believer that a true statement that can be backed up is worth a thousand lies. And I think where it goes wrong mostly, is that we aren't really teaching our children (education?) critical thought and how to recognize and handle misinformation or incorrect thinking and how to investigate the truth. I think those are really important skills that the average person doesn't really know much about. For instance: extremism is recognisable. We all notice that the online world has become pretty polarized. If you start to think of one problem as being everywhere all the time. If you think of one problem as easily the most important problem in the world. That's a good sign that you are radicalized. Because radicalization pretty much always involves narrowing one's view to one problem, one solution, one vision. And when you recognize that, you can take steps back to bring yourself back to healthy and more realistic thinking, or seek help. There are millions of really important problems in the world, and millions of potential solutions ranging from terrible to perfect. I think we can do a lot more to arm people against polarization, radicalization and misinformation, and understanding how important it is we can inquire or criticize things even if we are wrong.
This exactly. One of the worst trends of the modern era is the rise of social scarlet lettering from all sides and communities. Yes, board games are made by people, and people make mistakes. No one is perfect. Yes, everyone should be held accountable for their actions, but even our legal system, though flawed, allows “criminals” a second chance and MOST do not re-offend, despite the “myth” some bad faith actors would claim. In a world without forgiveness, there is no impious to better one’s self. I can not see how a witch-hunt and censorship based on modern sensibility is any different than those against communist or LGBTQ in the previous era, and it terrifies me to see the same things play out today. The counter-culture heroes of today always end up the villains of the new counter culture when they eventually become the new culture. Maybe everyone should just chill out, and play a game and realize that strengths and flaws of everyone you play with is literally what makes the experience so fun in the first place.
I really like the neutral stance that the Dice Tower and it's members take. It makes the content a pleasure to watch and to let it be about the board games rather than their personal political beliefs.
I actually agree with this very strongly😊 There are several other channels who unbearably exude their political beliefs and inject into every possible moment, not always overtly, but with constant promotion of their viewpoint. It makes it really uncomfortable to watch as the board games are clearly the third priority after 1.their agenda and 2. Their self obsession Anyway, love the dice tower and a handful of other truly neutral channels who manage to be neutral by simply being normal.
@@Ian-R-Wilz being neutral is a stance per se. In present times it is even more courageous to take neutral stance than all the people who brag about moral values and go with the crowd just for the fear of being cancelled.
Here are a few reasons off the top of my head that would make me want to boycott a game: The designer/publisher used AI "art". It's bad as it is right now for artists and creatives, take that AI garbage out of our games. If the designer/publisher is or showed an opinions that are queerphobic/racist/misogynistic/Islamophobic/antisemitic. If the game ITSELF has queerphobia/racism/misogyny/etc., in it, or a game that goes out of its way to justify colonialism (you know the one). If the designer turned out to be a sexual predator, or any other horrid thing like that. If the publisher abuses their employees in any way. Now this means I won't buy their games under any circumstances, and if I found out about any of this before playing the game, I probably just wouldn't play the game in the first place. But if I've played it before I found out, and I like the game? Then I might keep playing it from time to time, but I definitely wouldn't praise it publicly or recommend it. And if someone asks me about the game, I'll be like "Yeah, it's good and all, but the game's designer is a huge transphobe online" or something like that.
I think board games are a bit easier to compartmentalize than other entertainment media because there's more emphasis on mechanics. Even games with an unfortunate or offensive theme would probably work just as well with a different coat of paint and unchanged mechanics. The obvious exceptions are historical games designed to emulate very specific time periods and conflicts (i.e. not just "trading in the Mediterranean") and games with a heavy emphasis on narrative. With things like books, movies, and a lot of video games, the narrative aspect is much more front-and-center. Narratives are built on the cycle of action-consequence, and when framing a narrative, the choice of what actions to portray and what the consequences are says something about the author's values. It's impossible not to. I tend to go by feel. I'm not going to boycott something just because someone says I should. But when a creator consistently says and does things that cause me moral anguish, I just don't feel good participating in their creations.
I think discussions about these type of topics inside of board gaming is a good thing and helps us all understand our hobby better and the potential impacts it may have on ourselves and other communities even. Another video I'd recommend is "Table Talk - Are Board Games Good For Your Mental Health?" on the Watch It Played channel which covers another important subject matter that's often not talked about or at very least not talked about in good faith in my opinion
I came on here to pretty much post the exact same thing. So often in this hobby it seems like people get caught up in this mindset that if a game is good/great, they HAVE to play it. But yeah, there are plenty of other games out there.
Do not support bad people/businesses. It continues or perhaps encourages the negative cycle. It also furthers the pain inflicted by the person/business.
I guess it depends on what qualifies as “bad” ….is it a person who once said something rude? Is it a serial killer financing his attempt at early release? There is a scale and especially when it comes to word or thoughts rather than actions, I think it is often silly to cancel someone. Actions matter and a person who has done something heinous makes me have a hard time appreciating something that has their fingerprints all over it.
We have got into silos with social media, and some of us have become the champions of perfection within those silos. If you take the time to be reflexive (which is to actively reflect on a topic or issue) you will come to a decision that works for you. If that means cancelling someone or some party then that is fine. But if it is following people in your silo to fit in, or be perfect within you silo - then please take a moment to reflect on that, and ask yourself - why you are not thinking for yourself?
There is a certain publisher, i will not buy from because of the mismanagement of a Kickstarter. I feel like thats not specific enough for anyone to know which company im talking about, which is sad since there has been so many mismanaged KS campaigns.
I have a company I won’t buy from but not because they mismanaged their Kickstarter, it was more or less a smooth project Covid induced delays aside, but they were kind of rude to their backers, even the ones who weren’t acting entitled and impatient. When the game arrived I liked it fine but for some reason I just could not disassociate the game from the rudeness of the company so I sold it. Thinking back I might be because when you back a game on a well managed Kickstarter you kind of join a little community of people who are excited for the game and even if you don’t engage with the campaign outside of backing it the updates and the creators responses to their backers keeps the excitement going over the year(s) until the game is finally delivered but this company just refused to allow that to happen.
If a designer or publisher takes a public stance that I find reprehensible (not just disagreeable) then I won't buy their games. If they do the same things privately then I pretty much don't care. The line for me is business vs private. There are many people with whom I strongly disagree but I don't care unless they use their business position to amplify their non-gaming-related attitudes.
Finding out that someone I very much dislike is personally profiting off my enjoyment of a product diminishes my enjoyment, but that can be tempered if their percentage is very small. I love boardgames and have supported small publishers even if the product is just so so because I think they are a Good person. I'm not the most aware person on this issue, especially in boardgames, and part of me doesnt want to know, but if people care enough to boycott a product I feel I should know their reasons in order to make my own choice.
One of the issues surrounding this topic is some people like to have their own definition of “bad”. One example is being so angry because a designer may be a Republican or Democrat. And that’s solely what some judge designers on. Being politically opposite of what you are doesn’t make one “bad”. That’s just childish. Most of the time you won’t even know where someone aligns politically unless they are extremely outspoken. And in that case, you wouldn’t even know and you wouldn’t even bat an eye. Learn to be an adult and practice what you preach. Treat everyone with respect. Thanks Tom for giving an unbiased discussion. Now please go teach some people on BGG this logic. Especially the mods. ;)
This includes holding a single Republican or Democratic view. Funny thing is BGG is FULL of one side crapping on the other's views as being "evil", when it's just demonizing one side for not condemning history, or being a hypocrite. Example: Calling out sexist artwork against women (making them pretty and busty) when that same artwork shows men in their best form as well (handsome and muscle bound).
@@MattD007 Those are both demonstrations of the same problem. Your first example is an example of how _men_ think women look best, and your second example is _also_ an example of how _men_ think men look best. They aren't counter sexist to each other, they're both literally sexist in the same way. Drawn from the male desire without any consideration of how women feel or think.
Good point. I adhere tho the belief that you must distinguish between the work and the person, be it music, film, novels or board games. You can enjoy the pop of Michael Jackson even if he had severely questionable morals, you can like a book by an author you may totally disagree with politically and you may like a game even if the designer is a chauvinist or the game has a sensitive topic. The trend of a cancel culture is a dangerous one for sure.
A really sticky topic. I try to separate the art from the artist but that seems to easier when there’s distance between the art and the artist. For example, Picasso was an amazing artist but a pretty awful person especially to the women in his life. But he’s dead now so I find it easier to enjoy the art without condoning the artist. It’s much harder for me when the artist is living and breathing. Definitely an interesting philosophical topic.
Also depends on the act, like murder vs being a member of a group that committed mass murder or something. Which is obviously extreme but there are conversations about video games from Russia where the devs have connections to their government.
Hmm, I wonder what feedback or other event got Mr Vasel on this topic... I get how one person's "cancel culture" is another person's "accountability," but IMO, over the last several years (especially in America) that dial has been set too far in the former direction by people who feel empowered by their respective information silo to bask in self-righteous condemnation of the other tribe. A designer would have to be rather extreme on violating historical social and legal norms for me two want to begrudge them their $3 or whatever on a $50 game. I'm sure as heck not going to cancel a designer over a difference of political or policy opinion.
I have this discussion with people pretty often, because there are designers that I simply won't give money to in any way, shape, or form. I'll play their games if someone else owns it and I'm invited, but I will not own/buy them. A huge example in my own life is a game about gathering with people to play a game where you cast magic. I played this card game for 22 years(+/- a year or two, hard to remember), but the company that runs it has become a shadow of its former self and the game has suffered because of it. And after meeting the wizards who run the show there several times, I think they are genuinely not good people. Sold my collection and moved onto other things, no longer investing my time and money into it. It is one of the greatest games on the planet and probably my favorite in tabletop history...but I can't support certain things. In board game world, there is a very prominent designer that is well known that I simply will not support if his name is in any way involved. Super popular, games are always on the shelves, people generally like his games. This came about after meeting him once and seeing how he is on social media. He's largely supported overall in the board gaming world, but I just can't do it. Again. I'll play his games, I'm just not using MY money to help him in any way if I can help it. I think "compartmentalizing" can work and I fully support people do that if you can. But I think it is fully valid to not want them to get your money and gain success off of it if you don't want them to. Ever since this particular case I mentioned, I just try my best not to even engage with creators/developers/publishers of games if I can help it. No social media, no fan meet ups at events(which sucks), nothing. Never meet your heroes, as it were.
This is very interesting because I was just thinking, what if you love a game but have an issue with its creators/publishers? Giving up on it completely as you did is very difficult to do and I applaud you for it. I haven't had this happen to me with games, but have an author whose work I love, but recently discovered he holds a rather unpleasant belief about certain people, so no longer buy his books. It's a shame as I do really enjoy them, but I've found that reading them now, knowing what I know, sours the experience a bit so it hasn't been difficult (for me) to give. them up.
@@FlamethrowerJane Yeah, it wasn't an easy thing to do especially as a group of friends also engaged in that hobby. We all collectively decided to leave it together because we figured if one of us wasn't there then it was incomplete. On the bright side, our collections at that point were worth so much we made a ton of money and invested it into other things lol. I don't know if it's possible to do with everything. Like, I don't want to support websites or services owned by billionaires in any way if I can help it...but my dollar can only go so far and using certain websites and memberships is not only convenient but also typically the cheapest I can get for a ton of daily/household goods, as well as hobby goods. Sometimes it's hard to totally cut off. Regarding books, I totally get that as well. There's a super popular writer that I have followed for 20+ years(even though his career spans before I was born) and I no longer bought any of his books after like 2016/17 or so. I made the mistake of following him on social media and boy he is a bit looney and goes against basically my entire value system. I tried once to read one of his books after that point and he began injecting his weird beliefs into his writing blatantly and I just said nah. I kept all the old novels and still enjoy them, but no more of my money goes to him. There's another game dev I actually had an issue with last year. I got their game and brought up a potential flaw with how their storage solution worked in the box. Basically just said if they do another edition it would be nice to do it differently to avoid damages or issues. This was in a public forum post they were active in. They responded by (basically)calling me an idiot and saying since I don't know anything about manufacturing that I shouldn't comment on things like that. And now I don't buy their games lol. There's a ton of reasons to go with on this subject. I envy people who can get over it and completely separate the media with the creator.
If you want a book-length inquiry into this topic, check out Claire Dederer’s Monsters: A Fan’s Dilemna. It’s a book length inquiry on this very subject, and the conclusions she draws might raise some eyebrows, but it’s definitely worth the quick read.
Thank you Tom for that thoughtful seed for discussion. I am blissfully unaware of any drama or politics within the board game publishing community, however, I do believe that we should be voting with our dollars when it comes to any product, and that sentiment extends beyond board games. I think that we should reward companies that actively engage in ethical and responsible practices and avoid those who do not. And every individual is going to have a different threshold for what constitutes acceptable behavior. But we should also be hesitant to judge other people as we do not often have all the details of the events.
Trade, whether it be on the personal level or national level, is beneficial to all parties (and one party may be multiple people). Trying to use it to effect change is difficult. It is a blunt instrument that impacts many people. That said, if someone is doing something that is benefitting you, maybe you shouldn't be judging them for other things? The best person to put time and energy into changing is...ourselves.
"I'm more concerned when we try to police those opinions on others." A shame too many people fail to see that distinction, not knowing that between choices made by/for yourself and those you project onto other people are vastly different things. But to expand upon the subject, I do wonder if "bad themes" falls into this category e.g. colonialism, slavery. If a designer/publisher/everyone involved takes a "bad theme" but does not portray it negatively, must we assume they think its inherently good? Does it mean we derive joy from morally evil things? It seems like such a hot topic in the board gaming world, but stepping outside into any other medium, you'd swamped with how many types of entertainment utilize morally suspect themes but revel in them for the sake of entertainment.
@@freeheeler00... What if the point of the art is to highlight and lampoon racist characterization? Was is cultural appropriation or cultural appreciation? We all tend to make judgements on extremely limited information.
If I play Freedom: The Underground Railroad, a game about rescuing slaves in pre Civil War south, am I doing something wrong? If I play the original Puerto Rico because it has a great gameplay loop, while thinking that colonialism is quite evil while I play, am I doing something wrong?
@@chuckm1961 Freedom is a great game with lots of historical figures to learn about within the game. It's done respectfully. It's just hard to have "fun" with it.
For me personally, where I'd "draw the line" (in the sense that I would only start feeling uncomfortable playing a certain game) is if its designer had straight up murdered or r*ped somebody, or was convicted of an actual violent/sexual crime... Other than that, world views, politics, controversial topics, or just something "offensive" they might have said, etc. I don't really care at all. If they are a law abiding citizen then that's that... Everybody has different views and opinions and NOBODY is morally perfect... Nobody... So as long as the designer is not a violent criminal, I would have zero issues playing a game they designed.
I’m really good at compartmentalizing. Speaking for myself, I don’t think boycotting any art does anything other than give someone else power over me. If I like a movie or a game then I like it and I’ll watch or play it. Otherwise where do you draw the line. There’s been people who have worked on cars we drive, planes we fly on, clothes we wear, the food we buy, who have done terrible things. At the end of the day there’s no right answer other than what’s right in your heart and mind and doing what you think is best. For me, I always separate the art from the artist.
It must be convenient to have a world view that requires zero discipline or sacrifice of your leisure activities to be a moral person, even if it supports terrible people in a very direct way.
@@beehives8398 Actually it requires a more nuanced view of the world and other people and an understanding that people can have a difference of opinion and yet still have good intentions. It seems a little intellectually lazy to boil the world down into good vs. bad and make your purchasing decisions based on whatever new hot-button political topic pops up on the RU-vid feed within your political sphere, telling you who you're supposed to be mad at today. I'm simply being a little cheeky and pushing back the same way you pushed back, but really when people decided to support or not support something is entirely up to them and isn't for either of us to judge. I respect your purchasing decision as you should respect his.
One thing that wasn't touched upon, there are occasions cancel culture can blow something out of proportion or twist facts to support an ideology, and when people say such and such is a "bad person", I usually want to check the sources and not simply take what I'm told at face value. I think people have every right to boycott a product if the creator has done something very bad, but when it's something as trivial as political alignment, I don't think it's healthy. We shouldn't exist in an echo chamber but learn to live with and, more importantly, talk to people who are politically opposed to us without demonising them.
This reminds me of TV show "The Good Place", where it was impossible to be "good" because of all the connections. A board game designer isn't an island. They have companies produce the pieces they use. What if some of those employees have done terrible things? Buying the game supports that company and indirectly supports those employees. Then each of the companies use equipment made by other companies. To be morally consistent, we wouldn't be able to buy product from almost anywhere.
I once watched an interview with a game designer, who stated something so (in my opinion) ludicrous about game design which has forever colored my perception of their games. There are also other reasons, but mainly because of my perception of them from this interview, I shy away from their games - which I will admit, are very good, well designed, well thought-out games. This is my problem, my issue, but honestly I cannot seem to get over it.
"It is possible to despise the person while appreciating their work." That is paraphrased from a quote (that I can't find at the moment) regarding a famous 20th century artist. There is a difference between appreciating someone's work and helping to support them. I have products from a brand that I boycott because I disapprove of their practices and I will use them. I will not buy more products from them. I don't know of any particular issues around board games that would make me want to boycott a game. If it were to come up, I imagine that I would play the game but wouldn't purchase it.
For me, I am absolutely diametrically opposed to the views, opinions and actions of a certain designer. But their games are my absolute favorites and that's great! Separate the art from the artist I say.
Unintended Consequences. They happen, in spite of our good (or bad) intentions, and work against our goals. That's all I wanted to add. Thanks, Tom, for the quality content on YT, and the enjoyable gaming events.
I don't have the time or energy to go investigating every person associated with a product. That said, in a capitalist, consumerist society the strongest way to make a point is where you spend your money.
Excellent video Tom! Discussed about this a lot previously, and one point I'd like to add: I believe that as a consumer you have some responsibility on how you spend your money, but should you actively gather information about a designer or publisher before you buy their creation? Would get rid of a game (or other work) if you later on learn about questionable world views or behaviors? Even if you know you enjoy the game? In case an artist is from a different time period, do you take this into account when judging statements or behavior?
Tricky subject. Firstly, I’m against animal cruelty, but I’m not a vegan. I’m against immoral working conditions, but I use mobile phones and wear cheap pants. These are examples of my pure laziness to find out if a supplier is behaving ethically. Secondly, sometimes you do know, like rewatching a great movie but some actor is a piece of trash, or listening to music and… Now this video is about the second point, but I would explain it with the first, if I know a supplier of food is doing nothing about animal cruelty and it has been reported as such, I would stop eating there. That’s immoral behavior and there are more than enough alternatives of food suppliers. But I must admit there are lots of grey areas with that stance.
I'm a musician, and there are a couple of pieces that are requested of me to play, and I will refuse to play them because their creators who are still alive, would benefit from there performance. I don't get as hung up on dead artists, as often I kind of view them as a product of their time (i.e. Hemmingway). I'm not plugged into the gaming culture... but if I get wind of a game creator being a criminal, I will likely avoid playing their games, and am not afraid of outing them if I see it being played, or discussed. Thanks for the discussion.
This if not the best then it has to be one of the best videos not only on this channel but across all board game media. Thank you for discussing this and putting it together so clearly and concisely ❤
Even in the board gaming world, this is a topic that cannot be generalized. Different situations call for different responses, depending on the circumstances of the specific person/company involved. When it comes to morality, generalizations are dangerous as they lead to rewards or punishments of those undeserving of such a response.
A nice thing about games is that it's relatively easy to adapt existing ideas into almost any product. If I find out playing a great game would support harmful people, then I can still learn what makes that game great and try to replicate it in another.
Great points made. Our local gameshop has had some of those policing situations arise, luckily members have been able to play what they want without it getting too crazy.
As an indy game designer (rules writter) myself, I find this topic very intriguing. Personally, I go the "ignorance is bliss route." I love to enjoy all forms of art in their purest form first. So, the less I know about the artist, the better, as I personally don't want it to taint my initial reaction to something. If I enjoy something, then I might research the artist to get a better and fuller understanding of it. I want to say in general that not all bad people are intentionally nefarious. Mary Shelly, famousuly wrote, "No man choose evil because it's evil; he only mistakes it for happiness, the good he seeks". I tend to agree with this statement 90% of the time. So, what does this mean to an artist in the big picture? Well, we live in decisive time - to be quite frank. You can always be sure that there's a 100% chance there's someone out there you're not going to agree with. And likewise, there's a 100% chance someone out there feels the same about you. This doesn't give credence to wicked behavior; however, it suggests that both good and evil are entirely subjective, just like art. It's why it's so controversial in the first place. Think - if art is subjective. And so are the artists' ideals and motives, then neither have any grounds for anything more than speculation in any sort of a debate because at the end of the day its all paradoxically a matter or an opinion about an opinion of an opinion. What's sad is that because of this, many artists are encouraged to stiffel their own beliefs & ideals outside of their art for fear of losing their audience. Because taking a stance one way or the other on virtually any subject in the world will make someone feel ostracized or marginalized. At the end of the day, as you could imagine, this makes for some pretty terrible art, as the more the artist's creative freedom is squashed, so becomes the person, and thus their artistic medium. Gone are the days of love for the essentric artists who were deeply troubled. But were allowed to be so, so that they might create things of true and pure captivating beauty. Don't believe me? Go see the next "rebooted" movie that I'm sure premieres somewhere this week. Read a book published in the last decade. Look no further than AI artwork. In the end, it might just verry well be the people who will be remembered for killing the art, and by proxy, the artists. To this extent, I always say, "Let people be who they are, and just enjoy art for what it is." Simply put, theres no need to torment & torture the artists more than they already are. Good or bad.
Interesting thoughts! I manage a children’s book store so this is something I am being asked to think about a lot. It’s interesting to me how different it feels from books to board games. Books to me feels like the kind of art that the author puts a lot of themselves into so if I find out an author I like did something gross I just can’t enjoy their books anymore because I can see it in their work (sometimes this could just be me projecting, but sometimes it is very obviously not!). But board games feel different, I think I would hesitate to buy a game if I thought the purchase would encourage or embolden the kind of behaviours that don’t align with my personal morals, but I think I would still happily play it with some friends. And I don’t intend for this to sound reductive but a lot of games you can just play for the joy you get out of the mechanics and the people you play with and it’s possible to ignore the theme and everything behind that entirely. I wonder if the differences is because books are my job - my career is reading, selling and reviewing books so I examine all aspects of them without even realising I’m doing it a lot of the time, where as boardgames are my hobby so I can relax and play without needing to think about everything that surrounds the game and what other people might think of it. Also I suspect because I’m a children’s bookseller I feel very protective of the people who consume the books I sell and that’s definitely not something I need to consider with games lol
Many years ago I used to stress about this... Then at some point and I'm not sure why, I stopped worrying about the details and just sort of following my emotions, instead of trying to logic it out. If I'm happy to play the game, use the service, etc... That is that. If I am unhappy, then I don't do it. Basically if I don't need it and it causes stress to try and use, buy, play, etc... Then stop doing that. I guess I just have too many cases already where I don't have good choices that when I do have a choice, take the happy path and have a less stress. Cause oh my goodness I have to many instances where there are no good choices and that provides more stress than I want. :)
I'm really glad that topics like these can be spoken about freely. Completely agree with Tom that it comes down to personal choice and preference in matters with "no correct answer". Especially when others are trying to force their own moral code onto you. If somebody doesn't agree with my moral choices or values then that is their problem, not mine. My own view is that it is a sliding scale, and that the severity of what a "bad person" has done correlates with my own choices which involve said person. If someone has an opinion I disagree with on any level, that likely would not change anything for me. It would also likely be different when a persons actions come to light. Thank you for all the wonderful content you and the entire Dice Tower team provide and I hope to see you guys in Essen.
I'm generally pretty accepting of everyone's individual stance on how they handle these things. But I i do find it interesting how many who have very strong objections of an individual artist's views, seem to not express similar issues with themselves supporting many companies which arguably harm and exploit lives in much more tangible ways than someone merely expressing their problematic viewpoints/beliefs. I mean we're all inconsistent and flawed. I just wish people have that in mind when others do or do not share their conclusion on how to handle their own purchases/participation in a given controversy.
Well-known companies on crowdfunding websites saying one of the benefits of backing their game is receiving it before retail, then using crowdfunded funds to make the game available at conventions, big retail, and FLGS, BEFORE backer fullfillment even begins.
It's terrible because around ONE board game there are a lot of people that are involved. So, as you said, how can we talk about a board game if ONE of these persons is bad. I decided not to talk about it because I didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings and and I let justice do its work. Maybe after that, I will speak about the board game.
No one is perfect, so I don’t let myself get caught up in boycotting a specific person’s work as long as it’s independent of who they are. If it’s a really heinous thing about that person which comes to light, I’m sure that we’ll see fewer games from that person down the road. It’s not my place to make that judgment. I leave that to the people in charge of the production companies.
There's several degrees to this that get increasingly uncomfortable for me. First, there's the association that can really leave a bad taste in your mouth, making it harder for you to enjoy it. Then, there's the internet backlash who judge you for liking something. Then there's the backlash to the backlash, where the product becomes an emblem for people you would rather not be associated with.
Yes, and if I see the discussion heading down into such behaviour, then I will leave the discussion. I love discussing with people who can see a variety of perspectives, and where there's a desire to focus on reaching a consensus. It can be a great joy meeting such people, and I want them to have the opportunity to bring a more collaborative approach to the world.
I am a huge movie fan. I don't judge anyone. I'll let God do that. The thing that really bugs me is when I see people telling you how you should think. We all done things that we aren't proud of. I separate the actor from the Character they play. I look at this way. If I stopped watching movies, listen to my bands or playing games just because I found out something I didn't like about them, I wouldn't be doing anything but sitting in a room doing nothing.
My standard with most other forms of media is that if someone does something truly objectionable I won’t give them any more money or do anything that promotes them (I have a few band shirts that I no longer wear, for example), but I don’t necessarily feel the need to get rid of or stop consuming the content that I’ve already purchased from them. Board games are a bit different, because (unless you’re only playing in solo mode) they’re inherently a group experience and that would arguably count as promoting them to others. Personally I don’t follow the design/manufacturing end of board gaming closely enough to really be aware of that kind of thing, but if I heard something like that about someone heavily involved in a game I loved, I’d probably settle on keeping the game but making it clear to anyone I play it with that the person’s involvement may make them want to think twice about picking up a copy
I very much appreciate that comments naming people will get removed. That will also prevent us from googling them and reading discussions about them which are often pretty toxic. That will be better for everyone's mental health.
This is such a timely, deep, and thoughtful video. It’s absolutely up to the individual to decide how to compartmentalize games from their creators, but it’s vitally important to actually think about it and make such decisions, and this video helps to navigate these decisions intelligently.
I thought I might be different and strange, because my feelings about my favorite manga changed after the creator got arrested. It was my favorite for two decades, but suddenly it was painful to read. I’m very thankful that Tom acknowledged that things can be too painful to enjoy, I feel validated in my feelings, now.
well stated and i believe that it is very important to these tough topics. And, as we may all approach these from different directions and with differing solutions, it's important to realize that we are all people with feelings and opinions but we gather to enjoy games and camaraderie together so finding common ground is a worthy goal at the game table.
Companies licensing IPs and making their own decisions with it can work around some these problems. There was a recent popular video game that was based on the works of a highly successful and popular author who had posted some controversial statements online. There was an attempt to boycott the game which failed horrendously. The failure of the boycott was in part due to the extreme popularity of the IP, but was also due to the fact that the people that made the game distanced themselves from the statements made by the author by including things in the video game that were directly contradictory to the controversial statements the author made online. By doing that, people that would normally have been adverse to purchasing the game now had a positive reason to buy it.
I think there is a very thin line in such matters that some people either artists, actors, game designers, studios, anything must not cross. If someone does something terrible or insults specific people or tries to promote specific political ideas/agendas and you buy/support their products after you have learned about it, then it's like accepting some parts. All games must be fun and stay away from such conflicts no matter if it's a board game or a sport game or any other games.
Fairly simple if someone was a creep I would simply not buy their game. I wouldn't boycott a game if some line worker is a creep but I would if the designer or publishing house is. There are 100s of great games there is no reason to support crappy people in this great big beautiful world.
Interestingly enough, Tom, you are actually a great example of this subject. At DTE, you offered to play a game with me and a friend. We reluctantly said we were already in a game and you responded "you'll regret it". To some, not knowing you, that's easy to take as a pretty bold statement. Perhaps maybe even a little self centered. To someone that has watched a ton of your videos (myself), I know that it's you feeling your time is valuable and that you bring a level of passion to the table. You've shown time and time again that you do your best to remain unbiased, centered and not one to come from a snooty place. Long story short, this is a great example of something you can jump to conclusions about. When we don't have the full scope of a scenario it is very hard to judge whether a designer/creator/etc is "bad" without knowing all the details. It is very important not to grab the metaphorical pitchforks without all the facts.
I think it depends on the specifics of the issue. If the particular matter at hand is going to cause grave harm, then the moral thing to do is not fund or advance that individual or cause. And if the individual in question is loud about their views, I don't see why I should sit silently. If they make their views or actions public as a public figure they are subject to public criticism for that. All that said, the instances where this is justified are relatively uncommon. A significant number of "callouts" I see amount to a personal dispute that should have been settled behind closed doors.
Well thought out, Tom. I'm in agreement that it's up to each of us to decide what level of support/enjoyment we can retain and the key is to not push our own beliefs on others.
Perfect way to cover this difficult topic. People should and need to make their mind up for themselves. For me I prefer to as much as possible separate Art from Artist. There is a high bar to cross before I would black list Art made by someone. Generally that is if that person has committed murder, or similar unsavory crimes. The reason my bar is high is because I think if I were to blacklist every artist I disagree with I would quickly find myself with little left to enjoy. I can greatly enjoy games from people I would not get along with as a person. When it comes to publishers I am less tolerant of how they behave to their customers, I am unlikely to buy a game from a company that mistreats their customers or KS backers.
Maybe I am shallow but… I only care if the game is fun / enjoyable or not. Yes there may be games that push the designers views upon you as a player. I would appreciate an honest review stating that fact. But the primary factor I’m looking at is, is it fun or would I enjoy playing it? If it is crowd funded I add on to that “how likely am I to actually receive the game/ how long do I have to wait?😅
Well said! We have to decide ourselves how will support or not support companies or people, whether it's games, movies, books or whatever. Politics is a great example. I applaud the Dice Tower for staying away from politics on your shows. When I focus on games, I don't want to think about politics.
I agree to a certain extent, but only people with privilege speak this way. I hear the same rhetoric from folks who don't like seeing things like pride flags at sports games. It's easy to ignore certain issues if you're not dealing with them yourself. At least have some empathy for the people around you and what may be going on in their lives. For example, I'm so glad the BIPOC lounge exists at GenCon. It's extremely important to have a place like that.
Yep. The DT crew has always been very good at not rolling around in the mud over the hot topic button of the day. There are thousands of channels that cover those issues, I don’t need my board-game channel to suddenly become the expert on what I should think or believe based on their own ideologies. Lots of people I no longer listen to because they just can’t keep their personal opinions out of their business. I own a brewery…everyone and everybody is welcome. What I think on any given topic is irrelevant to the day to day running of that company. Please come, please feel comfortable, please know you are not judged in any form…as long as you are not hurting anyone or causing others to have a bad time at the brewery…please stay as long as you would like.
@@Rodfather_Prime you have some great points and that's great regarding your brewery. We just have differing viewpoints on the subject. I still want the hockey podcasts I listen to to acknowledge the sexual misconduct that was/is happening in the NHL. I lose some respect for a group of people who love the sport when they can't at least do a very small discussion on that out of support for the victims and the huge number of their listeners who have dealt with that in their lives. Same goes for when Indianapolis was dealing with gay rights and education in a shitty way and GenCon was still taking place there. Some of my favourite content creators spoke out about how it wasn't OK. Just one sentence helps. Putting your head in the sand doesn't help anyone except maybe yourself. Mental health breaks are fine to take if everything is overwhelming, of course.
I 100% agree. Board games are such a wonderful form of escapism and they have the power to bring people together, which is the antithesis of politics. I stay very far away from board gaming channels and groups that get too political. It's the worse when I feel as though someone is using board games as a means to shoehorn their beliefs.
@@x.Jay.Bird.x Not every outlet has to discuss everything but it’s definitely childish to say that board games or any medium are simply a means of escapism. They’re not, they’re a form of expression and interaction that exist in this world. You might want to escape but that cannot define the whole medium of games. It’s silly to think so anyway when many necessary discussions have been held over the topic of board games or through it. We’re adults, we collectively have to deal with the world as it is even if we individually are in different places.
If I only watched shows or listened to music created by people I agree with, there wouldn't be much for me to enjoy. I don't know much about board game designers to have any idea where they stand. I'll play a game if it interests me, and will keep playing if I enjoy it.
I think the real issue is respect. So many times, especially today, people are so disrespectful of other people's choices. Then these people go on social media, or other spaces, and rip into people they disagree with, including the games that they are playing. And I just do not get that. There are so many variety of games today, why would you spend time bashing someone else because they don't play the games you enjoy. Why don't you just play the games you enjoy and stop worrying about what game someone else is playing. The same goes for which games people purchase. Why should I care about what game someone else purchases? If I'm not going to play that game, then I respect that person's decision to play that game. But, it needs to be a two way street. If you demand that I respect your gaming choices, then you need to respect mine. If everyone would start to follow this one simple rule of respect, this hobby would be that much better for it.
I think for me it depends on the level the person in question has been involved with the product/media. An example of this for me, is a band I used to love in the 2000s, their lead singer was convicted of one of the worst crimes possible, I now can't listen to their music because he was the frontman (the other members of the band distanced themselves from all the old stuff too). An author would be pretty easy, other than the publisher, its usually just one named person on the book, so that would be easy to stay away from. With a game, its a little more complex, if it was a solo designer who did their own art and testing, I could easily distance myself from that game. But if it was a bigger game, with several designers, artists, testers etc involved in the making of the game, I don't think I'd punish them all for that one person and would still play/own said game.
What a great talking point and something I think we should do more of and across the board. When I was younger I had a laissez-faire attitude especially when it came to games I enjoyed, the books I read and the music I listened to. But now that I have children and especially now that they are of an age they can access this stuff I am more circumspect. We are not going to any consensus on this but its good we are debating and talking about it. Its also good that we can see that this is a really complicated question and that there isnt going to be any easy answers. So thats progress in my book! Personally I think the game or art work in question can still be accessed but with an awareness of the problems that comes with it. If we look into a lot of stuff, we will find people with very questionable values and history. So rather than bury it, I think we should talk about it and acknowledge what is problematic and why. There are "bad" creators whom most people will agree are bad so in those cases I feel we should divorce the work from them if the game is worth it. If its not then bury it. Someone somewhere will collect it but just dont give the game air. The majority of other examples will be those who are problematic and often divisive with some agreeing with them and others appalled by it. Once again that's a matter for our community to discuss and to try and figure out. Im old enough to remember the big arguments over boycotting South Africa over apartheid. Now it seems obvious but back then there were lots of people who thought sports and games should be above "politics" and should continue playing with the segregated south africans. But people discussed and argued and with examples like the murder of civil rights figures, awful racial prejudice and violence such as in Soweto, people were won over against the apartheid regime. I am rambling a bit but basically I feel we need a dialogue and one where people can openly discuss the issues and if there are problematic games or game designers then we should work out whats best for society and ourselves proactively. Alas nowadays we just shout at each other over social media.
I am definitely someone who can separate art from the artist. Be it a book, movie, board game, etc.. if i done my research of the art and have money or a friend let's me borrow I'll do it. Edit - if after the research i believe I'll like it
I find talking openly and generally about these things to be a good move. There are things out there where I like the art but dislike the artist. Some of this is for all sorts of reasons, which I don't need to get into (as Tom already did), but I often will go the route of "Just don't give money that would make it to that person." Also, the point of being more lenient with someone from your "team" is a constant in all things. Which is why I do my best (flawed as it may be) to disregard that in the context of this decision. I've had some issues with other media where I want the thing but don't want money to go to that person, and that seems to be (for me) the easiest line for me. I can usually trace where my money would go or where my effort or eyes would go (as my attention has value to companies too).
For people I know, our relationship will dictate what we do and how we approach artwork. If a difference in opinion over art was big enough to break the relationship, then the relationship wasn't strong enough anyway. For people I don't know, if we can't bridge an understanding or our level of passion towards an artwork/creator is too varied, I find it easier to just sidestep it completely. Not everyone needs to agree to the same level that Book A or Game B is bad because Creator C is trash. This is just for in person stuff. Online, especially with influencers, is just a battleground of public opinion.
The illustrations really confused me... as they weren't examples, but just... what? Is there a statement about the book 'Too many hats' in here? If so, what was it?
Personally, there seems to be a lot of people that seem to want to push bad ideas, and to attack people who disagree with them. So there are some whose games I would not want my money to go to. However it isn't a hard and fast rule: if I do end up playing a game by that person and find it is good, I may still end up buying it. On the other side, if I see a game being attacked, and when I look into it it looks to be unfair, I may buy the game even if I am only mildly interested. Similarly, if I buy a game and find out that it pushes bad ideas I usually end up giving it away, sometimes I sell it. Figuring that in either case it is someone else who may have bought it, giving more money to the creator, who now won't. Also, I do think this should only really extend to the main designer, and maybe the publisher themselves. If there happens to have been one person who did the art for a couple of cards, that's not worth it, and they won't see the effect of your decision to boycott, but the designer and publisher will be watching sales carefully normally, and if they see (polite) discussions on why you didn't buy their game, they may listen. That said though: I did have one game where the game itself was fine - the mechanics were good, the rulebook was fine, the text on cards had no problem - but the art was clearly heavily politically biased, so I did not keep the game and have not recommended it to anyone. And yet there are some games that I have, which are clearly biased - every card signals their virtue - that I have not gotten rid of. This is because the game is that good, or that popular in my group - though in most cases I don't buy any more games from that designer / publisher as mentioned above, or if I do I make sure they are second hand, when normally I buy everything new. And another decision to make is if the designer and publisher seem alright, but then you see that everyone else on the game is one of these people that you don't want to support. So in all it boils down to: you have to make your own decision on each game. If you are bought a game, it behoves you to accept it with gratitude: after all a gift is still a thoughtful present, and often the purchaser won't know any of the history that has annoyed you. In the end you can only control your money: you decide where to spend it and who to support. And there should not be any shade on people who decide to buy games from people you don't like. If the other person is one who can have a fair conversation, you can use their purchase as a hook to discuss it, but don't attack them for choosing to buy it.
I think this is an important topic to discuss. I'm usually give a lot of leeway to a$$holes who make products I consume, be it board games, cars, books or other media or art. But I definitely have my red line and that is when people's world views or actions hurt other people directly or indirectly. When I found out that the designers of a popular board game series are of horrible and toxic morals a few months ago, I completely lost interest playing the games. It wasn't even a conscious decision. And there are some other examples from other products. The one thing that does bother me though is that on one had we are saying that everyone should make their own decisions on how to act and react but on the other hand we show respect to people who are able to compartmentalize. Why? If people want to not buy product because of the morals of the creators, respect that. If you won't throw judgement, don't do it on either side.
There is one specific company I do not/will not purchase any game from, because of something they did directly to me. I still own one of their games and will play it (the enjoyment is not the same, though). But I made the decision to not support them again.
There is another thing to consider, which is the community that you form at the gaming table. This reminds me of a conversation I had with my son about a hat he loved to wear. It was emblazoned with a certain IP, and its purchase pre-dated the creator openly saying harmful things about a group of people. I asked if he was sure he wanted to wear the hat to school. He wanted to but asked why I brought it up. I said that I still have shirts with that IP, but I don't wear them when out-and-about anymore. The targeted group could see my shirt and have to wonder if I support that viewpoint. If I did, I could be cruel or harmful to them. Their best and most understandable choice would be to avoid me. So first, I've put them through the distress of being worried about someone they are encountering, and second, I miss out on an opportunity to meet someone who could have become my friend. I said that it was fine if he still wanted to wear his favorite hat. It wouldn't mean he agreed with the creator's views. He thought about it and removed the hat. It doesn't really hurt us to not wear a piece of clothing or to not play a particular game. Conversely and depending on the issue, it could be frightening, hurtful, or unwelcoming to our community to wear or play something that makes a statement we don't intend. One of my favorite games has the same IP, and I still play it with my family. I just wouldn't bring it to a games night or encourage anyone to buy it. I will always make community and kindness a priority at my gaming table.
You told him wearing that hat makes people believe that he agrees with the creator of the IP on their completely unrelated views that he wasn’t even aware of? Those people are ridiculous fools if they came to that conclusion, especially about a child’s fashion choices. Why encourage your child to cater to such foolishness?
Genuine question, do you express as much concern about your child wearing clothing made by child slaves in sweatshops? Many huge brands exploit real life people and it is far less of a leap to connect the brand that is all over the clothing to the brand’s sweatshop labor to make that very piece of clothing. I hope you care as much if not more about what message directly supporting such brands sends out as you do about this few steps removed IP.
@searose6192 He is a teenager and is fully aware of the creators views, many of which are expressed on social media. Young people are quite internet literate. He also has several friends in the group that creator has denigrated, and they are all quite aware, too. It was a discussion about empathy and kindness, not one about calling other people names. Those lessons seem even more important when random people online feel emboldened to be so rude to each other anymore.
@searose6192 We do what we can to be concientious about everything we buy. We don't consume much in the way of "huge brands" as a family, and I genuinely don't know which brands would even qualify as such here in NZ. But as I type this on my cell phone, I'm fully aware that I can't be a purist about everything. I try to and encourage my kids to make a difference where we can. All I shared here was how I approach creating a welcoming board game community and how I teach my kids about empathy, yet you have approached me with a strange amount of hostility. I have a lot of concerns about the world that will be left for my kids and grandkids, not the least because there are people with attitudes like yours in it. I wish you some peace and kindness. As the kids would say, touch grass.
For me there's no way to separate the artist from the art but it all depends on the level at which I am 'in disagreement' with said artist and the memories I have of said art. I can still enjoy things from that artist that I liked before I found out certain things about them but I wouldnt wish to finance that artist going forward so any new product from them I wouldnt be interested in. There's also been a single time where the artist has done something so heinous that I've had to expunge all their products from my mind (and hard drives) despite me having very fond memories of them at a certain time in my past. That was hard but needed to be done.
Thanks Tom, hitting all the points I’d agree with - in particular that people need to make a decision themselves - classic “food sacrificed to idols” issue and that’s an important part of it. If it’s making you personally uncomfortable and unhappy, don’t do it! But I also agree with and appreciate what you’ve said that the product and the person aren’t the same thing. I’m mostly able to enjoy things without thinking about the person too much.
Thank you for a view of Pastor Tom, Tom! 👍 My take is like yours, that a collaborative effort like a board game is in a different category than a mostly independent creation such as book, song, podcast or artwork: if a contributor guilty of reprehensible behavior infused the game with their reprehensible ideas, that's a no-brainer pass. If the publisher has cheated the creative team so they aren't getting their due, that's a pass as well (this is more common in the music industry). Otherwise, I look at the game itself and make a gut decision on whether I'm comfortable purchasing or even playing the game, based on what I know and don't know.
"Good tea. Nice House." All humans have flaws, but all flaws are equal. The only time I avoid a creative work is if I don't want to spend my time with the ideas / concepts / themes/ positions the work is relating. AS I age, I find this happening more often. Ignorance is bliss, but I can't live in ignorance, and as experience piles up with the years, I am less often able to claim ignorance!
There are so many games out there that you won't miss not playing a game by a designer you don't agree with. A real propblem is companies and designers that tell consumers not to buy their product because they disagree with the consumer's worldview.
It's sad when we don't have a choice and cannot buy a game because a publisher has removed it from their catalogue because of controversies. While it's obviously any publisher's right to do that, I'm not sure how often they do that because they really believe doing it is the right thing to do or because they've given in to peer pressure. Although, if we apply some form of Vasel's Law, you could argue that publishers only do that to games that weren't that good to begin with.
I once criticized some balance issues in a game and got a reply from the designer who said that I had bo right to do so unless I had played the game at least 20 times. That is not saying that thia designer is a bad person, but it was a rude enough reply that I designed not to play more games from this person. This video made me think, however, and I decided to end this "cancellation" and start playing these games again. An upcoming kickstarter looks really neat too, so maybe I'll even back it. I still think, however, that designers should pursue a friendlier tone and actually appreciate rather than criticize criticism.
If the creator is no longer alive and can not financially benefit, then it depends on the work itself and whether or not what the person did is so bad that it casts a shadow over my enjoyment (e.g. a violent criminal). If the person is alive, then it's a case-by-case basis. I consider whether the work overall does more personal and societal good than harm by being played, read, etc. (of course by my subjectivity of what is "good" and what is "harmful"). Recently there was a controversy with an author that did make me think about how part of our interpretation of a work can be influenced by how we envision the person who creates it. However, board games are generally fairly far down the list of seeming like a really personal work from a theme/message standpoint. There was likely a ton of work put in and a topic the designer cares about, but it's not the same emotional layers as a novel can have.
This is a topic I have talked over with friends several times. It is difficult to decide sometimes and definitely up to each person to decide. I have possibly the hardest time when it is music. Thinking of one band specifically where the things they said during covid really made me distrust the message in their music, it was inconsistent to say the least. I loved a lot of their songs but the trust in that message is gone, so now they don't get played. With games I think I wouldn't have as hard of a time as long as there was nothing flaring in the game that maybe they were using to push their ideology.
You did a great job of leaving out anything and anyone specific. I love how you used John D Claire for your example, because he is one of the nicest guys in the world. In fact he will probably be at Strategicon next week. I always make a point to say hi to him. Albeit, I have no one specific in the gaming industry that I have a problem with, most industry people tend to stay away from disclosing their world views and I really try to avoid hearing stuff like that. But this concept translates past board gaming, and honestly, Tom, I think that was your point. Thank you! Let’s say that I don’t like Joe Schmo because he is a heinous person in my world view. His primary product is widgets but he also does this and this and this. I refuse to buy his widgets because of it. But, because he has his hands in so many markets, there is no way not to support him completely. So, in a small way, I get my opinion across but I cannot be called a hypocrite for not taking every step to make sure that I am not supporting him in every way. If you wanted to make sure that you weren’t supporting anyone with a worldview that you didn’t support. Stop watching any TV, Movies, and Social media. Don’t buy cars. Grow your own food, but don’t buy any supplies for growing your own food. Live completely off the grid, because if you buy or rent a home, there’s a chance that you could be supporting someone with a different view of the world. Funny, some of my best friends have viewpoints that differ from mine. The most extreme, I even call “sister,” even though she isn’t. We are just that close. She moved out of state, but we used to discuss our views quite openly. We even changed each others minds about some things. So, if you stick your head in the sand to things you don’t agree with, you may never learn when you are wrong about something. So, have faith in your viewpoints, but challenge these viewpoints consistently. If your viewpoint is correct, they will hold up to scrutiny and if they don’t you are a better person for it. I love you all and on that i hope we can agree.
Regarding boardgames - I wouldn't buy a new game from someone that behaves in a way ethically opposed to me, as there are plenty of alternatives. Just because no-one is perfect doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer to financially support those who behave responsibly than buy a game off someone who has been revealed to behave unfairly. No one is entirely good or bad. We are also not our decisions or our behaviour. This is what is called fixed mindset (labelling people), versus growth mindset (recognising people can vary their choices and behaviour). We can make our decisions about people's behaviour and communicate whether we do or don't appreciate their behaviour. Hopefully they care enough about your connection to them to make changes accordingly.
I always think this is a valuable conversation to have but its honestly too nuanced/personal to have outside of personal groups, imo. I think its perfectly valid to seperate art from artist and simply enjoy what you enjoy. There's no sense in throwing away your favorite game or book because someone told you the person behind it was a monster. But, if finding out theyre a monster (or less) does actually ruin the taste for you, then its fine. If youre on the fence about a purchase and the artist/designer isnt someone you care to support, its fine to let that push you away. Its really only a problem in online, mass discourse. When opinions get simplified into yes or no, and if even if youre 51% you get tossed into one bucket or the other conpletely. When liking a product is assumed to be an identity and not simply liking a product.
You sum up my thoughts as well. It's not a black and white issue, there is rarely a distinct "right" and "wrong," and it's generally going to come down to one's personal comfort levels. For the most part, if a creator is a jackhole in one way or another, so be it. I can separate their work from who they are. If you're going to consume ANY kind of art or entertainment, you HAVE to. There are many many many lousy people who have created some really fantastic stuff. It's impossible to be "pure" in the art and entertainment we consume. There are, of course, instances in which I can't in good conscience separate the two. For the most part, that's a personal thing, and I don't have any expectation that others should follow suit - nor *should* I. As I said, it's a personal thing. It's about MY conscience. There may be rare situations where that is not the case and I WILL judge others for still supporting someone, but it's so fleeting rare and would require such a reprehensible person to be involved, it's barely worth debating. Someone somewhere will still push back at that idea, of course. So be it. All I'm saying is, if Jimmy Saville or Jeffrey Epstein came out with a board game after the revelations about them came out and a person was still willing to support their game, sorry, yes, I WILL judge that person for it. But that's a crazy made-up scenario that is virtually never going to be the case, which is why I say it's barely worth debating. In TT gaming, there is only one person/incident/issue/company that springs to mind that makes me feel that way, and it's so niche and obscure that it's not like hordes of people were swarming to support him/them anyway, so it's not worth mentioning. (I also wouldn't mention it, anyway, because it would just open up a debate that distracts from the overall point.) Bottom line is, as you say, this is generally a person choice, it's OKAY to support something or to choose not to, and it's only really a problem when it becomes fodder for the Internet debate mill.
Owning and playing the game would be where I draw the line criminal or just moral disagreement. I don't think it's fair for me to say that I would play or own a game with a morally faulty developer because that would probably impact my comfort level of playing and owning the game. I would still praise it and promote it even if it disagreed with my values if that was merited. If they financially benefit despite my disgust, good they've earned it. But I take exception to my actions towards a particular individual be stopped because of all the other people hurt. The presumption here is that they are owed my money. NO!
I do think things like this need to be taken on a case-by-case basis. For instance, I just came back from a convention that's all about Lovecraft, with everyone there understanding (and often discussing) how horrible a person he is. But then there's an author out there who believes every sale of their IP is support for their views.
