The issue from my workshop experience is that I’ve never learned how to first draft. There wasn’t an expectation of perfection obviously, but there was an expectation of readability. It had to be decent, not bad. It didn’t allow for ‘just let it be bad, get it down, this doesn’t have to make sense to anyone but you.’ And that’s a vital skill for a perfectionist like me to learn, and workshop instead compounded that problem. It’s only thanks to years of writing fanfic for fun that I’ve started to unknot that particular hangup.
I'm right there with you, lmao. As a highkey perfectionist, it literally took years of effort and now months of therapy for me to realize I can just... get stuff down and like, make it better?? later?????? And even now it still doesn't seem real to me, but I'm so happy I learned it.
This is a really interesting addition! My workshops had VERY high standards, essentially the work was expected to be publishable quality. I found that this helped my drafting because it forced me to get drafts done and edit them really rigorously in order to have such a clean story done in time and I struggled more to draft post-grad without that pressure, but now that you mention it I totally see why for many people, that expectation would have the opposite effect and really harm their drafting process.
Word processors are the enemy of coherent thought. Their ability to Cut & Paste blocks of characters ruins the steady sentence-by-sentence build up of ideas. Generally, you will not know the goal at the outset, or if you do you will not be able to predict the journey you will take the reader on to get to that goal. To counteract this issue, only allow yourself to edit the current sentence and do not terminate it with a full-stop unless you are completely happy with it following on from the sentences that precede it. This will ensure your text is coherent and focused and with practice you will get faster and your thoughts will organise a lot of this work for you so that you are naturally in a state of productive "flow". Unless it is obvious you have completed your last thought, a new sentence can become its own new paragraph by editing it to include a carriage return at its beginning, provided you haven't typed a full-stop. This may seem like a crazy draconian rule, but it will stop the word processor from being used to abuse the sequence of sentences, and punctuation of clauses, and whether parenthesis ought to be put in footnotes, and whether you are using the right word, or spelling for that word (as you should disable Spelling & Grammar "wigglies" as they are just distracting you in your first draft, and disruptive of your flow). All too often I can tell a text was prepared on a word processor as it will mention some new concept and then introduce it later on. You may think that you can read through your text to check it is coherent after a major edit but your mind will tend to refuse to read what is really there, and will optimise for speed, guessing words rather than actually realising that they are spelled incorrectly, or anticipating the argument is going to be X when actually it is Y, which is seen in so many Twitter arguments even though tweets are very few words and what remains unsaid should never be assumed as that is a projection on the part of the reader. A second draft can have the Spelling & Grammar checker turned on. Paragraphs can be put into footnotes. Long, multi-clause, sentences, split up. Single lines isolated for emphasis. However, if you want to reorganise the text you either shouldn't, or you should force yourself to rewrite everything whilst referring to the unaltered original in a separate side-by-side view. Changing text in place in one view is a sure fire way to lead to it becoming incoherent and losing any focus it once had. Don't rewrite it more than once. Write something else from scratch. Keep writing new things from scratch. Practise, so that your mind becomes naturally ordered and produces sentences that do no need to be edited once they are written. Such as this comment, all of which was a first draft.
Fascinating to hear from perfectionists because I'm naturally the opposite: I wrote a short business planning book a few years ago (as a marketing piece for my accounting firm) and discovered an absolute love for writing. I was 33 at the time and I remember feeling like "Hey, you know how you can picture a beautiful scene in your head but you can never draw/paint etc. it at all? Well, writing is different." I felt like I could accurately convey my thoughts/stories onto the page--at least close enough for someone else to have their own adventure. So with that 80-page business book experience... I launched into my first fantasy novel and wrote 128K words in 1 year. Then I discovered the perfectionist side... and I've been learning my craft and working on this novel for 4 years now =/ Life gets busy, so it's hard to get anything "perfect," but let's all aim for good enough ;)
I had a similar issue in a college writing class. A rough draft was due in class and I suppose the draft wasn't fantastic enough for the professor? I didn't understand what could be so terrible about a draft that I had put honest effort into. I thought that was the purpose of the "rough draft." It became more about writing a mostly finished story than taking risks and experimenting.
I think my biggest issue in both undergrad and grad school was the pressure to have intelligent things to say in class, and have well-written first drafts of things to share. The fear of appearing good enough sometimes took away from my focus on learning the material and becoming a better writer. As a quiet person, I really wish “classroom participation” in your grade amounted to much more than coming up with things to say in class.
This is so true! I am also a very quiet person and it took a long time to feel confident enough to contribute a lot in class, since I always undervalued my ideas.
Grades have no place in any writing workshop, unless you fail to show up to class, fail turn in your stories, don't participate, or plagiarize. My undergrad workshop professor made it a point to give everyone an 'A' unless they did any of the above. Focus on becoming a better writer, not in writing something that you think will get you a better grade, he said. In my MFA program, we were graded on a pass/fail basis.
i recently graduated with a visual arts degree and it was very comforting to see someone expressing the exact same struggles im having now. very helpful video, i really appreciate your honesty with distrusting hour instincts.
Editing as a checklist applies to me so much! I’m actually revising a short story I submitted to a workshop and I was going through each critique and trying to fit it into my story without asking if it actually fits. Now I’m going to have to decide which critique will actually strengthen my story.
Hi, I write short stories & have them all critiqued. What I do is look for patterns, eg: multiple people felt a character felt flat or not needed. Patterns are important I find because critiques can contradict each other because they're just opinions. I consider each point as to if I understand & agree with the issue. Sometimes I don't. I separate each point from every critique into categories: Opening, Plot, pacing, worldbuilding etc to see the patterns of the same problem appearing in multiple critiques.
@@ulkeshkosh6164 Wow thank you so much for this! I never thought to separate my critiques into categories to identify patterns. A lot of times critiques are overwhelming because it really is rooted in opinion so I’m going to use this method to help edit my current short story!
@@AhhDoll Glad this helped! Also, I colour code each person's critique in a different colour. This way I know that if I see 3 sentences saying the pace is slow & they're each a different colour & I had 3 critiques, I know that all 3 readers thought it was slow - so I'll defo work on it. Whereas if there's only 1 colour, then this shows that only 1 out of 3 readers thought it was slow - maybe I don't work on it. The results help me to determine which elements of of a critique get more of my attention. This has helped me focus on necessary improvements & not get overwhelmed :)
I’ve been watching your videos your years now, and it has been amazing to watch you mature as both a writer and a person. Thank you for letting us be on this journey with you. Your honesty and passion helps us just as much as the content in your videos alone. ❤️
Love your comment about "very big changes can be implemented with very small edits." I can't edit my first novel too much. I didn't get a writing degree; I wrote my first novel in 1 year at the age of 33. I then used it as my workshop: I started reading more, both fantasy and "on writing," reading about the craft, watching videos like these, and then applying lessons to my novel. Now, I feel extremely confident in the story, but running my own business + 2 kids is busy... Right now, my novel is a place I escape to when I can, and I make small updates/notes for when I finally have the time to give it the final overhaul. I hate that I'm saying "when I finally have the time..." but part of my maturity and wisdom is recognizing phases of life. I'm loving having little kids, and I'm also excited for the day I can really sit down, polish this first novel, and then, of course, write the rest of the trilogy =)
+1 on the point of addressing issues brought up by workshop classmates. I started out with a strong vision of what I wanted my screenplay to be, but by the next semester I had altered so much to address issues brought up by my peers that it became something entirely different and I lost interest in it.
YES! I had a lot of problems with my creative writing MFA, but the biggest one is that it instilled habits into my writing that are really bad. I feel like you summed it up pretty well. I just finished my degree and I feel like it will take a while for me to get rid of those bad habits. I also write a lot less than I used to before starting my degree.
It definitely takes some time to figure out how *you* write vs how your program needed you to write, in my experience a couple years to really reset and find footing post grad. The skills I learned in school were absolutely worth it but it takes time to sort out your process again!
I literally just finished a campus tour for the college where I’m going to study creative writing, and then I saw this video posted! Excellent timing, your advice is helpful as always. :)
Ooohh exciting!! As much as this video was about the ~bad side of my degree, it really was the best experience of my life so I hope you’re is just as enriching!!!
I've been in a depressive episode and literally do Not get out of my bed for like a month now and my only indication for the passing your time is the notifications for youe videos 😂😂
I am so sorry you’re experiencing such a terrible episode. I feel for you, been there. It never lasts, no matter how drab and lifeless everything seems.
A mood stabiliser like Lithium Carbonate or Semisodium Valproate may suit you. I personally wouldn't recommend Prozac (SSRI) or Zoloft. Try the mild medicines first.
I also have trouble with needing external validation. Which is hard when I get a critique that doesn't match my idea of what the story is supposed to be.
with your first one, it's the only reason I like where I go to school, my workshops were based on work. Like getting stuff submitted and like attending class, they would never directly *grade* writing
We all have bad writing habits wherever we get them. The hard part is seeing them and then stopping them which requires putting one's ego aside. I see this resistance to change habits a lot. Some writers call it their style whereas better prose is better style.
I totally seek outside validation to feel any worth as a writer. I loved workshopping and miss that raw feedback, so yes, I sought it after my creative writing certificate in publication...and guess what... that is HARD!! With every rejection, I see F FFF! And it's not the case I know. I luckily have a writer's group (very talented cohort!!) so we commiserate and lean on each other if not for help with a piece, with support on rejection day. And I'm learning to love my stories whether rejected by my bucket list lit mags or not. And to keep writing and keep growing in my craft.
maybe cohort really is the biggest thing that can make or break a degree. when people care about each other's work, when people like teach other, we're way more likely to not just do the workshops for a grade, but to legitimately help other writers. the difference between my bachelor's cohort and my MFA cohort is night and day. the best suggestion that we can have for anyone considering an MFA program at a local school: if you can, audit one of the grad classes. that way you'll see the vibe of the professors and other MFA students without having to commit. some degrees will let you retroactively apply classes to your degree, so it wouldn't necessarily go to waste. for me, having a pretty rough bachelor's cohort skewed my ability to take criticism. i'm a good writer, and i've always been a good writer. often, i'd be best writer in the class, which left me with very little workable feedback. now, when it comes to tough love criticism, i have to wade through a lot of "ahhh this feels like a personal attack even though it 100% isn't!!" feelings to get to the actual meat of the writing feedback. even worse than that, though, is that i lost the ability to give the benefit of the doubt. as an undergrad, i expected poor writing from other people, and i got it. as a grad student, i have to really fight the kneejerk reaction to knitpick everything to try and find the same kinds of holes and flaws i saw with my undergrad peers. and that sucks for everyone. thanks for the video and for getting me to reflect on my situation.
On the subject of grading things: what you're describing IS a bad habit that affects the majority of people in the arts in general. The arts are competitive ... and when it comes to awards season and end-of-year rankings, competition gets rabid and ugly. It's not just a problem on the receiving end. My work in film criticism made me feel like a Roman emperor twinging my thumb up or down on a filmmaker's self-esteem. (Despite me being a nobody in the grand scheme. The site that published/archived my reviews no longer exists. LOL.) On the subject of the process: the work is never done. It's just that whatever you have when you reach the publication date is what the people get. Can you make it better? Yes. The answer is always yes. (Unless you're George Lucas or Disney, in which case the answer is no. Stop it.) But the physical act of release is important, because it's not just a story. It's a time capsule, of you. Let the world see you. We are finite. But we do things and then those things are there. Does that make sense? On the subject of workshopping: you're a full-time novelist, which means you've chosen a solitary activity. My work in both theatre and film is impossible unless I take a collaborative mindset, and from a young age I've just been comfier batting my ideas around with similarly passionate people to get an end result. I also find that being an editor (of mine *or* anyone else's work) is much easier knowing that practice has made it perfect. Just like the actual writing part. Confidence. Yay. On the subject of filtering feedback: the feedback you get falls into two camps. There are the people who legit picture things the way you explain them and are offering "what if" s to steer you down a path that's helpful. Then there are the people who tote their own style as the supreme artistic authority and impose this authority on what you're doing, and if you didn't already know those people were dickheads, they make it clear with their feedback's tone. Holistic editing is another matter which deserves its own video.
I relate so much with all your points! Unfortunately, I never had a fantastic workshop experience in my writing classes and struggled to meet likeminded creatives among my university classmates. I did learn some very valuable lessons and skills from some of my teachers, though, so looking back now I don’t regret the experience 😊
Marge Piercy:. "The real writer is the writer who really writes.". She said, writing degrees don't mean you can write, it means you're certified, like a dentist who fillings fall out in the stew.
It is as hard to separate validation from approval or recognition as it is to unlearn bad habits. Your summation is cogent & clear headed. Plutarch disapproved of ovations since the word came from ovis, Latin for sheep. 'Let me do as I like and give me approval too' : populism. The first degree course in creative writing in Britain started in 1970 (Anglia University) and out of it came Ishiguro, Rose Tremain & Ian McEwan.
Very insightful--thank you for sharing. Academia really does sensitize & condition us to regular feedback. I think I might have simply replaced grades with reader reviews, always waiting for the next one to come in, tense until I see whether it's good or bad. It was awful at first--I overweighted in the extreme every individual's opinion. Worse still was when I'd run something by a group of authors online (a group comprised of disparate genre specialties and drastically different levels of success). It takes time to figure out which advice to ignore, but at the end of the day, I think the best measure of a story's quality is whether it successfully conveyed what I intended. Of course, arriving at this view naturally led to second guessing my own intentions... 🤦 😄😭 And that's my epiphany for myself today. Time to re-embrace my own preferences and just trust that over time it will lead to a cohesive set of work that will attract likeminded individuals.
I'm in a Creative Writing Bachelor program right now, and, honestly, returning back to campus after the pandemic feels like everythings kind of in shambles. The 4th year course that I'm in, I havent seen more than half the class at one time since the second week. Some classes, are almost 95% masked people, some classes are 5% masked people. Communication is difficult. Not just because of masks, but also because we've been at home, away from other students, for 2 years. Admittedly, in the 2nd year course I'm taking right now, the workshops are pretty great, and they're full-class workshops, not small groups. I think that our instructor does an excellent job cultivating that. However, I think that the most important thing, when it comes to workshopping, is to find people who understand your writing, because you need to be able to elevate each others work and not stifle it. But thats not really possible to find in the span of a 13 week course. And it's certainly not possible when being put into random groups. It feels like there needs to be a better way of doing these workshops. In fact, it feels like these workshops should be creating long term relationships with like minded authors that you can work with throughout your life. And it doesnt feel that way to me at all. But that could be because I'm in my early 30's and most of my peers are in their early 20's. I'm planning on going directly into an MFA, but, theres only one in vancouver, and thats UBC, and forgive me for not being so confident as to say "yeah, I'll get in to UBC's masters program." lmao. So, I'm a little concerned. I *would* prefer an on campus program, But even with online programs, thinking about options is so goddamned stressful 😣
I just remembered something that might make you feel *something.* The instructor of my Fiction and Poetry 2nd year course showed one of your videos in class. 😄 I fangirled.
Ooof that sounds like a mess, sadly it seems a lot of programs are in a state of disaster right now, even the program I graduated from seems to be in shambles right now. Workshopping with different people every semester definitely doesn't sound like a good way to build lasting relationships especially since trust is so important in workshopping. I'm really thankful that I workshopped with the same core cohort of people for three years, and I think that's important because once you graduate, the relationships you made are the 1# most important resource you'll have going forward.
Instinct is such a huge factor for me it has prevented me from finishing a single chapter since I began writing in the mid aughts. Sometimes I don’t know if I’m cut out for this.
Instinct can be a problem. It doesn't show one how a story must work to be a story. The craft itself, such as understanding story structure, guilds what can work or not. Load up on craft knowledge and stuff the left brain with it, but when you write, use the right brain to create. Instincts are made out of what we load into our minds. Instincts develop over time by understanding and practicing the craft. Instincts alone are not enough.
Kind of makes me glad I did a History degree instead. I want to be a writer but Writing and English degrees never appealed to me. I just wanted to know what was possible to happen for plot points and history books provides that in abundance.
Glad I only took one creative writing course. And honestly I got more out of my junior year of high school English teacher. She had one simple mantra for writing that she would endlessly repeat: "Concrete imagery!". I'm not sure if you need to know anything more than that. Everything else you learn through the process of writing.
As you say, most of these can be reduced to wanting to be a high quality author and not knowing if you are. Grades do feel good but this is the humanities, there aren't a lot of correct answers or methods, it's all soft skills. A grade is more about how the grader feels about you as a person and if you're showing that you're paying attention and applying the techniques they are instructing in; it's not about quality. This is art. It operates on a lower level of consciousness. A "good" narrative is one that communicates what you want to say, and sometimes you, well, I, don't even know what that is. Fiction is an industry, a discipline, where the difference between yet another failed manuscript and the "most significant work to come out of the South since Mark Twain" is literally which acquiring editor it lands in front of. It's where an author can begin with ambitions to write big, "important," clever Post Modernist stories like Norman Mailer and John Updike, and winds up discovering his best work is as a regional middle grade author writing about a self-delusional dog. It's where sub-par BDSM erotica or story milled action dreck can, no, will, outsell the most beautifully lyrical or brutally honest social commentaries of the age. I'm like you, most authors are like you, we crave validation. But most of the validation we find isn't as substantive as we'd like, and we don't often get enough of it. The ones that do are incredibly lucky, and I honestly think it has more to do with how much they are satisfied in themselves, not with what they receive, from whom. Btw, Ann Patchett got her MFA, from Iowa no less, and said even on a full ride scholarship it was almost a waste of money. She reports she was grateful for the structured practice, but as far as technique goes, she learned everything she needed to know in undergrad. All she picked up in Iowa was pretension, which she had to unlearn. If you plan to teach at university you need that MFA, if only as paperwork. Otherwise, just get out in the real world and write. You'll find your voice on your own, learning to be a little more independent, through experience rather than shoving your money in the university's pockets.
the thought of getting a grade for every piece of writing turned in kind of blows my mind. in my bfa we got a letter grade at the end of the semester, but for individual projects i suppose it was a just pass/fail system of did you actually write something for class today
A lot of people have commented that they weren't graded on their workshop pieces which is really interesting to me! Did you have to hand something in every class? In that case I think a pass/fail definitely makes sense. We only had to hand in 2-3 pieces per semester, but they were expected to be very polished, and then if we chose to revise them, the revised grade would replace the initial grade, which I felt was a good system because there was no risk for the initial piece.
It might not be the best way to write and edit, but for me, I write the story I want to read. If I am not happy with it, it will not see the light of day. When it leaves my hands, I have set a pretty high bar for feedback. The feedback I get from editors and beta readers has to go through my filter. Writing is subjective. What a person writes will resonate with some and not others. With that in mind, I read my reader's critiques and ask do their suggestions make my story better from the point of view that it is something I want to read. If not, then I am reluctant to accept their changes, especially in terms of concept. Everything short of storyline, I am very willing to take onboard. In my recent book, my editor wanted me to drop a chapter. She said it did not add to the story. I disagreed, feeling that it added to the pacing of the story and helped connect a storyline that ended in 1950 and picked up again in 2011. To leave such a gap, in my opinion, would be too jarring for the reader. So, I kept the transitional chapter. Bottom line is you are your last line of defense for your writing, and you need to have the confidence to hold firm to your vision. Of course, if you are going the traditional publishing route, you need to check your ego at the door. The editor is a gatekeeper who has a strong say in whether your book gets published. In the books I have published through publishing houses, I have to be more flexible. That is why it is so important to have an editor who shares your vision, and you can collaborate with.
A main theme was not trusting your writing instincts. Do you see this getting better in the next 5 to 10 years? And what will make it better? And you had a lot of help with feedback which is great, but when will you be less reliant on that feedback? When is the turning point?
I don't know when I will be free of those problems entirely, but I'm actively working on both these things and have improved a lot in both these areas since I graduated.
@@ShaelinWrites I find that "trusting your instincts" comes with "Finding your voice." Relax, and show the world YOUR work, rather than THEIR suggestions. Happy writing, my friend.
Hello ma'am, can you make a content about the level of manuscript when is the right time to publish it. Such as; how perfect it must be...etc. What are the standards of literary agents, editors and publishers for the manuscripts before it get submitted. Also, (sorry) please share some of your knowledge or experience if there are any differences when it comes to asian-based aspiring authors who dream to get published in the biggest publishers in the world which most likely in the U.S.A. Thank you.
Publishing is extremely competitive at the moment, so if you're querying your book to literary agents, it should be the highest possible quality that you can make it!
Instead of focusing on one book, making it into the "perfect" one, continue to write and write. Otherwise, you'll get tunnel-visioned. You'll learn a lot of lessons finishing one novel that you can apply to the next one, instead of sticking to one book. Plus, more book = more chances of one of them getting bought. At least, that's Brandon Sanderson's strategy is with 12 manuscripts.
@@N0noy1989 Thank you for the advise my friend. Yep, I did and done after a million drafts, developments and line editing, ending up in over 120 words. The thing is, I think I am finished but not confident enough to send a query that's why I'm seeking advise from people who have experience.
how to learn movie English to write scripts ? i'm learnin' american accent for the past couple of years by watching movies, series, american youtube vlogs, etcetera and i wanna be an american movie director and script writer... what are the skills that i have to learn to be good in the language. ANY SUGGETIONS PLEASE !
I notice in a lot of these types of videos you include so many disclaimers at the beginning to clarify things that no reasonable person would ever think you are saying. Is this conscious/intentional? Are their viewers out here trying to twist your words in an insane way that you need to preempt?
Yes, it's because no matter what I say people will interpret it in *wild* ways that are obviously not what I was saying, and that's why I include those disclaimers. Everything I include in a disclaimer is because I have gotten multiple comments accusing me of saying that very thing in the past. It's ridiculous but people on the internet will misconstrue literally anything. People especially get VERY sensitive about the topic of writing degrees for some reason and feel like any statement a person makes about *their* experience is apparently a universal statement now.
like it sounds ridiculous if you are a reasonable person, but i literally once had someone make a 20 minute video bashing me/calling me an idiot (and much worse things) because I said in a video that if you're considering a writing degree you should consider how the cost of tuition might affect you...which is literally the most lukewarm take of all time
@@ShaelinWrites wow, that must be so frustrating to deal with. I thought it was excessive at first but I can see that someone who deals with the discourse on this subject would know better. Sorry that people are like that :(
A good writer would be a good speaker which in my opinion you are not. The ratio between the number of words you use and the points you are making is much too high. It's what I affectionately refer to as jabbering. I had to click away because I couldn't take it anymore.
writing and speaking/presenting are completely different skills. this is a completely arbitrary marker of writing skill that you have made up and has no basis in reality. the way I write is nothing like the way I speak.
@@ShaelinWrites How you manage words in writing and in speech are not completely different. Language is the common factor. The vital one. It's linked to thought which is subvocal speech. Ive head major authors speak and they are wonderful to listen to. You've learned nothing and should not be giving advice.
@@mysticmouse7261 don’t watch my videos if you don’t like my delivery, but my writing is NOTHING like how I speak and frankly the fact you’d reach that conclusion without reading it is insulting. The fact that some award winning authors are excellent speakers also does not in any way mean that all writers must be excellent speakers to prove they can write, that’s correlation and anecdotal evidence that means nothing.
I think your argument is the nonsense one pal but okay. you are also clearly misreading my comment as I said don't judge my WRITING without reading it, not don't judge my video without watching it. Also this was a casual video I filmed in my apartment, not a fucking TED talk lol -___- have a nice day, you seem like a really miserable person
Took way toooooooo long to get to the meat of this video and then you completely overshadowed the valuable information your tittle promised with making it all about you thoughts on your personal experience. To much rambling and use of ‘I’ and ‘me’…..I was hoping for insights from an experienced writer rather than a sharing of your personal journey. Sorry but I’m out.
Ok, so here goes…..1# -To 1st Comment: it was more about what you thought than about the habits you had you had to undo AND ok a very long time for you to get there, #2 -To 2nd Comment: Of course her channel is her channel but if all one ever gets is ‘your so fabulous’ comments, how will she get better? Lastly, #3- To 3rd Comment: Shut-up you snotty dork. BAM! My work here is done, Ladies. 😆
@@suzanneelliott4245 'Shut up you snotty dork' is bad writing, Suzanne. Tojours la politesse, in good manners lie wit and grace. *No Roman ever was able to say, 'I dined last night with the Borgias.* The incomparable Max Beerbohm. *The Comparable Max Beerbohm.* Adam Gopnik. The New Yorker online. July 27 2015.
*Toujours La Politesse.* The Spectator online. Duncan Fallowell. 25 April 2015. The 34-year correspondence between Bernard Berenson and Kenneth Clark was a substitute for a friendship that didn't happen.
