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I will say, I think No Way Home had an ending that wasnt well-explained. They made Peter not exist to everyone’s memory WITHOUT a replacement identity. Job from Banshee can explain it well: “Im giving you a new name, credit history, social security, and a motherfucking birth certificate. I am turning you into a whole new God-damn human being!” They never did this for Peter. I think it would just make sense to do it given that if some non-immigrant face shows up in America from thin air as though he’s always been here who cant assume the name “Parker” as made clear by the funeral. Every person in the US has an identity in the system. So God only knows what would happen if a ghost just showed up out of nowhere.
I like that you separate "bad plot" from "bad film". Even if the plot is bad, the film can still be enjoyable, and in the end, that's what really matters.
@@JeffreyBCampbell Usually when they say it's good, the mean it's enjoyable, and that you should probably watch it. This is more literary criticism, which only tends to happen in deeper discussions about stories. But it's always a good idea to ask what they mean with "good" or "bad", since exactly what they like about it may differ.
another example of the aforementioned is Batman & Robin from awhile back,there was just too much going on,and top of that the acting was below par,me and friends walked out 😓
The worst plot ever has to be Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker - idiot decisions, no consequences, wildly implausible coincidence(can we even call a cave hidden beneath quicksand a coincidence?), a plot which contradicts itself repeatedly, several sacrifices which aren’t, and a returning villain who’s return invalidates the sacrifices made in earlier films.
@@Cobracatcommander It’s not because of Marvel, they’re not even a part of the same franchise. It’s because it’s Star Wars, a franchise that has built up faith & trust with its fanbase over several decades of quality movies, shows, comics & books. That trust convinced all those fans to spend money and see a movie they thought would be good, because they thought the Star Wars Franchise was consistently good. Whether or not that movie was actually good is up to the individual viewer.
Rise of Skywalker isn’t even close to the worst plot ever give me a break. You guys realize that there have been so many plots written over hundreds if not thousands of years. The rise of skywalker is just the worst plot you can think of in 5 seconds, not ever.
"Remember in high school, when you had to write a five-page essay for class, but you could only come up with two pages, and then you had to BS the rest? That's Rocky IV." Thank you for this.
Some time accepting that a film is in need of a "Please check your brain at the door before watching" label is a good thing leading to an enjoyable popcorn nest. I'm looking at you Pacific Rim or bulk of Bay's work.
“Uninspired excuse to bring back Wolverine” In defense of the film, I’d rather bring back Wolverine from another universe than try to resurrect the one who died in Logan 2017 to avoid disrespecting the film
They still ressurected anyway. If they REALLY want to make a NEW wolverine they shold have casted a different actor because by that logic all the spidermans from now way home and even from the spiderverse should have beeing played by Tom holland (and yes he is canon in the spiderverse they confirm him)
@@comradeopthomasthehedgehog one out of 20. Meanwhile the spiderverse, with maybe perhabs Peter A Parker and Peter B parker, they look the same but they are both played by diferent actors, is all 0 out of thousands making it a more realistic multiverse than any one ever made. Which is funny because they originally wanted tober maguire to play Peter b parker, but since they didn't want to overshadow miles with a cameo they insted choose jake johnson. Wow is almost like they wanted to tell a story insted of selling nostalgia.
Something else worth noting is that in No Way Home, Andrew’s Spidey still struggled with the death of Gwen. Saving Zendaya’s MJ visibly showed him healing from that trauma. Such a great moment ❤
The best plot (for me) would be Robocop (the 1987 original). It's looks simple. Police officer gets killed on duty and get's rebuild as a cyborg. So he has a chance take revenge on the criminals that killed him. But the clever part is that his memory got erased. So in order to get his revenge, he has to find out who he was in the first place. And by doing that, he also has to face all that , that is lost to him forever.
Agreed. The movie surprised a lot of people when it originally came out. I remember there was a loud applause in the theater i saw it at when he said "Murphy".
I forget if it's Robocop 1 or 2 that ends with one of the greatest lines in film, encapsulating the theme of the movie when Robocop says, "We're only human."
If I had one wish for this channel, it would be for you dorks to never again make a "Somehow, Palpatine returned" reference. We get it. It was a stupid plot point in a stupid movie. But even things that are good that are endlessly repeated become annoying as hell after awhile. This joke stopped being good a long time ago and has become a bad cliche in a series of videos that is telling you to avoid bad cliches, but apparently some bad writers just can't be taught to stop being bad writers.
I think Rings of Power have delivered some amazing stinkers. Galadriel is looking for Sauron, but her superiors don't want her to because they think that she might actually find him, which they think would be bad, because eh... let sleeping dogs lie? So they put her on a one-way-ship to paradise. But she gets a sudden feeling and jumps off in the middle of the ocean. Then she randomly encounters the remains of a shipwreck on which is none other than Sauron, disguised as the human Halbrand. There is no cause and effect, here, it's just a random encounter in the middle of the ocean. He tells her that there are orcs now, in another place called the Southlands, which he claims to be from. Then they randomly encounter a ship from a big isolationist island nation and Galadriels new motivation is to railroad them into sending a military expedition to the Southlands, to kill the orcs. First they don't want to because they are racist against elves, but then a special tree sheds a bunch o leaves and suddenly they are super on board. Galadriel has also been given a thousand year old manuscripts that says Halbrand is the rightful heir to the throne of the Southlands, because he carries a very important amulet. So they sail to the Southlands, kill a bunch of orcs and instates Halbrand as king, but then the orcs make the local volcano explode and turns the Southlands from a human friendly ecology to an area where only orcs can live. So the whole thing is a big failure. Halbrand is now wounded somehow and Galadriel takes him to the local elf kingdom. Meanwhile the elves have suddenly run out of life force and need mithril exposure in order to not have to take those one-way-boat rides all at once. Because, reasons, or something. But the mithril belongs to the dwarfs who won't help out, so in the end they just have this piece of mithril about the size of a pack of chewing gum. Enter the healed Sauron who gives the elven master smith and head of not-running-out-of-lifeforce project a few crucial hints and they make a set of three powerful McGuffins. I guess the McGuffins are going to radiate mithril energy or something. Then Galadriel is given another piece of old paper that says Halbrand wasn't the rightful heir to the southlands and when she comfronts him about it he confesses that he's actually Sauron, and he's hot for her. They have a heated argument and Sauron leaves. Galadriel keeps quiet about the whole thing, because ... she's ... embarrased, or something? The end. This thing is way too complicated, and it doesn't make sense. There's no cause and effect, but just heaps and heaps of contrived coincidences. And everyone has to take turns acting like idiot children for the plot to happen. But season 2 is going to be sooo much better. Right. Cheers!
Let's neither forget nor forgive the murderous proto-hobbits. "Nobody gets left behind" - unless someone breaks an ankle. And the plot is completely unrelated to the rest of the world. It only "works" if you already know the Lord of the Rings lore but still can overlook the many lore mistakes the series does.
@@gkoymnbxykfb Yeah, the proto-hobbits are a can of worms of their own. Plot summary: Our protagonist Nori is extroverted, curious and kind, whereas the rest of the tribe are isolationist, rigidly conservative and callous - at least to outsiders. So when she finds a magical dude who fell from the sky, she's the only one in the tribe who wants to bring him along and take care of him. That's the question: who's right in this case - Nori or the rest of the tribe? Is the magic dude more dangerous or more helpful? The plot goes in circles about this for a bit (like five or six episodes) but then these evil magical strangers turn up looking for the magic dude, and the battle to save magic dude becomes really costly for the tribe. In the end magic dude gets a power-up from the writers and kills the magical strangers. That's the plot. It's not the worst setup in history. There's a clear conflict, a midway escalation of stakes, and space for character development for both, nori, magic dude and the rest of the tribe. There's a reasonable connection between their character journeys and the final outcome. This could have worked. But the execution... First there's the mystery box, where the writers desperately try to hint that magic dude might be Sauron, or at least evil, again and again and again. Then there's the absurd repetition of story beats, probably from a combination of only visiting the proto-hobbit plot for a few minutes at a time, sandwiched between scenes about other things, and also as dead filler because they haven't actually come up with anything else for the plot to do. Finally the whole "if you twist you ankle and can't pull your own cart fast enough to keep up, we won't help you, we'll just leave you for dead" thing. I am convinced that this was added last minute because somebody thought the plot didn't have enough stakes in that moment. It makes zero sense, they were literally chanting "nobody gets left behind" in the previous scene. It is absurd: that's not how nomadic hunter-gatherers survive. It makes us hate the proto-hobbits and think they are probably opportunistic cannibals whom the standard humans are right to be afraid of. If they had story-boarded and workshopped the harefoot plot ahead of time, they wouldn't have written themselves into this corner. It's just one of many ways that this thing reads like a first draft of novice writers. Cheers
The worst AND best plot ive come across is in Gymkata. In this movie, a gymnast is asked by a secret agency to compete in a deathrace in a foreign country because of his superior gymnast skills, despite all foreigners getting assassinated in the race for the last 900 years. There's so much added nonsense, poor decisions, lack of common sense, lack of motivation, coincidences, etc but it is somehow captivating. There is so much to learn from bad movies and recognizing what makes them bad has helped me a lot with story telling, so thank you for all the analyzing you have done on this channel.
I actually love the anchor being plot in Deadpool. It's fully a meta plot. If you think of these universes as comic book series (or movie series), if the anchor being dies the comic book series is over, it gets canceled, or culled. If Wolverine dies the Wolverine comic series is over because the anchor being is dead, you can't have a Wolverine comic without Wolverine. Likewise Logan's death signaled the demise of the Fox Marvel universe. Paradox is old school because he thinks when the anchor being dies you just cancel the comic, aka the universe. But in modern comics there are shared universes and multiverses, so when an anchor being dies the comic universe continues on with less popular characters until it eventually looses popularity and dies on it's own and gets canceled. Paradox is a Disney exec looking at the Fox Marvel universe and saying "With Hugh Jackman's Wolverine dead there is nothing worth saving. Iit's time to scrap the whole universe and all the characters, with one exception. Deadpool is popular so pull him out and put him in the MCU". I thought it was a brilliant plot.
People don’t seem to understand this and call it bad writing, but when you add in the fourth wall break and how everything is super meta in the movie everything makes sense and makes the movie that much more impactful and with soul because this is how Deadpool would interact with these marvel characters, which is comic accurate.
This is also a good opportunity to do a trope reconstruction/justification of 4th wall breaks, which otherwise is just handwaved away as just following the rule of fun.
You're 100% right - the plot was absolutely a great satire and breakdown of the incessant need for executives to leach every profitable dollar from a franchise until it kills itself. However, as brilliant as that is, it doesn't make the viewing experience itself any better. The plot within the D&W universe is still contrived, unfocused, and unserious.
Deadpool&Wolverine is meta in it's metaness. It's a satire of the genre, the franchise and the industry. That's why the movie works so well. Not despite a lackluster plot, but because of it. Had they given the movie a more coherent, "better" plot, it would've thrown the theme overboard. But while I loved the movie, I see why other people don't like it. Deadpool's humour isn't for everyone and especially with a thin plot you need characters and (in the case of comedy) humour to carry it. If one of those don't work for you, the plot will trip you up. Same if you aren't ready for satire of a franchise you like. Because it has a weak plot - on purpose, sure, but still weak. Even while thouroughly enjoying the film I had to notice it.
@@sarahsander785 Yes I also love the "weak" parts of the plot. Very fragile justifications for cameos. A seemingly unwinnable fight against 100 deadpools end because of a complete coincidence. Good guys triumphing with the power of friendship. And the complete hand wave at the happy ending where the good guys survive certain death "just because" All of that was done on purpose and often with a wink and a nod from Deadpool as it's happening.
In defense of Deadpool and Wolverine: The movie was all about main characters not side characters, regenerate healing is part of the two characters,i advise people to read comics well. If they die in the beginning of the movie that will be the end of the movie. I understand and love the movie.People who say Deadpool and Wolverine movie being bad,they never read comics about the two characters,the two characters Deadpool and Wolverine are immortals unless the plot says other wise. This is reality, there's no such thing as perfection.
@@msscott22 Even in comics Deadpool has comedy I don't see the movie missing any mark.If you haven't even read or do research on Deadpool you will not get what Deadpool and Wolverine movie. Even I don't like reading comics I have not missed anything about the movie
There isn't supposed to be perfection, least of all in a Deadpool film. It's kind of quaint watching people try to hold the lens of classic movie making up to a film that is supposed to be borderline incomprehensible. It's not supposed to be a Good Movie, it's supposed to be a good Deadpool Movie and they fundamentally are things at odds with each other. I really enjoy watching people try to analyse it from the angle of good movie making when that's not what it was supposed to be or what anyone wanted it to be. A well made movie would be a terrible Deadpool Movie, in the exact same way that a film made with principles cribbed from the the most seriously shot cinema would make a trash comedy film. This is what happens when people forget that the medium and it's intent is more important than the analysis or it's structure.
Half Murders is Fantastic! 🎉 You will love it. I've only a few chapters left in Bad Parts, and I already can't wait to re-read it! Entry Wounds is in my cart right now. I don't know what I'll do when I'm all out of books!
@@LaserLady I guess read books that Brandon recommends, but yeah I hear you. I read a lot but usually in bursts. Definitely read LotR if you haven't already.
The Dark Knight's plot is a mixed bag for me. When rewatching it I notice so many conveniences. The plot hinges on the Joker being able to perfectly predict what other people will do. All while using criminally insane minions that somehow never screw up his plans. Not to mention how he manages to sneak around undetected in spite of having all that clown make-up on.
Yup, basically it boils down to the video author deciding which movies he likes and which he doesn't, and either praising them or picking on them, as relevant.
Except the Joker doesn't perfectly predict what others will do. He has to improvise sometimes. Like when he doesn't get his phone call, so he manipulates the guard so he can take him hostage. Also, when he tries to kill Gordon, we see him without makeup.
No, everything didn't always perfectly go the way he wanted it. Like he failed to kill the Mayor, failed to abduct Dent in the first try in the party and arguably actually failed to do it again with the convoy. But he always prepare back up plans for every possibilities and improvise too. It's the opposite for me, I had all your doubts too initially, but I start to understand the more I rewatch it.
Hey Brandon, here’s a video idea for you, writing sequels to a story. Also, could you try doing a writing analysis of the Monsterverse movies (the movies that feature Godzilla and Kong)?
@@WriterBrandonMcNulty Here are my suggestions to Good Sequels: - 1) The Dark Knight (Obviously going to be on the list) 2) Puss in Boots: The Last Wish 3) Dawn of Planet of Apes 4) Kung Fu Panda 2 5) Dune: Part Two 6) Kung Fu Panda 4 7) Inside Out 2 These are good sequels in my opinion and you are free to disagree.
@@WriterBrandonMcNulty You may wonder why I put KFP4 in the good sequels list because if you search the net, you will get reviews saying how it sucks or is mediore. I personally think its very misunderstood. This movie has a lot of layers under the apparent predictable plot than meet the eye IMO. HUGE SPOILERS Despite being the weak link of the franchise, KFP4 still has engaging themes and character development. Po's arc is to move on from Dragon Warrior to Spiritual Leader that means passing wisdom and hope like Oogway. The heart of the movie is about him resisting change. We also have a thief fox named Zhen and she brings a fresh new dynamic to the movie and it does not stick to the formula of "Po & Furious Five facing another villain". Speaking of villain, the main antagonist, Chameleon is also criminally underrated IMO. I get it she is not that compelling or threatening as the previous villains but she is a polar opposite of Po in many respects - backstory, personality and arc. Chameleon is a shapeshifter and she takes pride in her external transformations which she uses to gain power and respect while Po transforms internally, accepting his duties as spiritual leader and ultimately his strength to guide others defeats Chameleon. They are also polar opposites on how they treat Zhen. Chameleon exploits her skills and sees her as "something to use" while Po who also needed Zhen's skills, sees good in her and even mentors her with wisdom of Oogway and Shifu despite being reluctant to become spiritual leader. So yeah I think its a good sequel because it introduces new elements instead of sticking to old formulas, Po's arc is developed further and the the villain, similar to previous franchise villains is a polar opposite to the main character.
A story with a bad plot sucks but it can be saved if the characters are well written, interesting & likeable. After all the reason why we consume these stories is to follow the character's journey since all stories have them.
I hated the plot of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. It was a thing happens, then another thing happens before I can process the first thing, then another thing and so on. I didn't care about any of the characters and I don't remember why (if there ever was a why) anything needed to happen. Also, Spiderman: No Way Home had an idiot plot in the inciting incident. If Dr. Strange and Peter discussed the parameters before beginning the spell, they could have avoided a ton of heartache. It's almost like trying to write a script without an outline.
@@prman9984 Raiders of the Lost Ark fits too. It's a great film, but the plot is: Indy spends the whole movie trying to stop the Nazis from getting the Ark, only to fail. His only lasting effect is to have the US Secret Service pick up the Ark at the end and stick it in a warehouse.
Regarding Cause and Effect, an excellent strategy that accomplished writers have used is connecting the disparate events of a story with "Therefore" which has the next scene be a consequence of the current scene, or "However" which takes the story in an unexpected new direction. The writers of South Park have talked about it in videos, but another great video that shows it is "Domino Worldbuilding and the Brilliance of Mass Effect" by the channel Twenty Sided. Highly recommend. BTW since Therefore/However basically forces you to begin with the story's start, I've personally added "Because" in which you explain what caused the current event, and lets you work backwards to build the story.
Related, think of "Yes, but" and "No, and." If you're still working on a plot, it's helpful to do this as your protagonist chases his object of desire. 1) Did he succeed? Yes, but now there's a bigger problem, or 2) No, and now there's a bigger problem!
I disagree with regards to No Way Home. The plot is messy, because at least one major character acts against how he's been established before, which unfortunately is required for the plot to get going. Doctor Strange would NOT have kept trying to change the spell while casting it. He'd have told Peter that once he begins casting, there's no going back. This whole scene was needed for the rest of the plot of the movie to happen, and it makes no sense. Marvel had already begun struggling at the time, and with all the Spiderman crossover memes going around, Marvel saw an opportunity and grabbed it. What we ended up with, was a movie that felt dumb and contrived.
@@The_BIaze It is the scenes that sparks the entire movie. The entire movie could have been avoided if Strange would have not acted out of character. It's like having a building 's foundation built in quicksand. And the ending barely makes any sense.
@@bobdallas4860 Well the tower of Pisa has a weak foundation but is still a fascinating building. It’s one scene with a single character acting out of line. And the ending does make sense.
One example of an “idiot plot” that I think works is Glass Onion. The fact that the plot only works (or even happens at all) because the characters are stupid is the entire point. And our hero goes in expecting something actually intelligent only miss a lot of clues because he gives the villain too much credit. Another plot that I love is Mission: Impossible, if only because everyone complains about how hard to follow it is, when it really isn’t. Like, sure, if you’re watching while haphazardly scrolling through your phone it might be, but if you genuinely pay attention it’s actually pretty clear.
You were spot-on with Prometheus. What’s so annoying is that it COULD have and SHOULD have been good. Good effects, some good CONCEPTS and a fan base that wanted it to work… but the idiotic characters killed it. You didn’t even mention Charlize Theron’s character. What was she in there for? And what another needless, idiotic death. Some good examples off the top of my head? Seven? Inception? How about The Big Leboswki?
@@StupStups Me too. I still remember when I called out that film, a bunch of fanboys got really pissed off. Today it really doesn't seem to hold up. Especially if you see this vid.
Once they hired Damon Lindelof to do rewrites the "COULD have been good" went out the window. The Mystery Box style of writing never produced a satisfying plot.
This might be controversial, but I think most Shakespearian plots are pretty horrible. Too much of the movement and conflict is based on wild assumptions and obvious misunderstandings that could all be cleared up with a short conversation. Frustrates me to no end
Thank you so much! This is going to help me a ton with writing my stories. Plot is always one of the hardest things for me to execute well in my stories so it's a comfort to know all the essentials as well as pitfalls of a plot
Deadpool and Wolverine is still a bigger hit than youll ever write. The movie made me feel exactly what i wanted to feel. I wanted to feel like i did when i first saw X-Men and Spiderman. I felt like a kid again.
There’s no need to bring down another person whilst complimenting another. I agree, Deadpool and Wolverine was a good film. But that doesn’t mean Brandon’s critiques aren’t valid and that he’s incapable of writing stories that amass a large audience.
An unfair comparison since one is a film that is pure comedy and is satirical and making fun of the trend of something popular while the other film is a more gritty, dark serious film where tension and stakes are high. If you're seeing Deadpool and Wolverine as a serious movie then you're watching the movie wrong.
true but it still doesnt take the fact that it had a bunch of plot holes. Its a really enjoyable movie but it isnt great in terms of story writing. Many flaws but the fans are blinded by the nostalgia. Again im not saying its a terrible film. super enjoyable film with its fair share of flaws.
How so? His character is an inexperienced kid, struggling with the stress of being doxxed to the world as spider-man while also trying to maintain a normal life. He's _supposed_ to make dumb mistakes. That's literally his entire character.
@@R3_dacted0 not just peter, dr strange makes very dumb decisions, like not asking exactly what peter wanted and didnt tell peter how the spell works before he started the spell, then entrusted 3 teenagers to fix the mess. Not to mention if all peter wanted was to help his friends get into college, it would have probably be easier to hypnotize the admissions board to let them in than manipulate the minds of the whole world. And the biggest crime telling to "scooby doo" everything when they obviously don't have a dog to "scooby doo" with. The plot is also quite contrived as spell meant to affect the worlds memories somehow affects the multiverse which is an overly convenient way to have 3 spider men.
@@R3_dacted0 In the Far From Home movie, the ending scene where Spider-Man closes his eyes and attacks the flying robots against Misteroy, It shows he learn experience. But in the 3 movies it shows Peter didn't learn from what he did in Far From Home which is a good movie out of 2 Tom Holland movies.
I don’t think it’s a full idiot plot, but it definitely is a case of the idiot ball (see the OSP video: “Trope Talks: idiot plots”). After the initial set up Peter makes pretty smart decisions, but the spell scene is annoying because it’s two smart characters being very dumb, like they randomly got hit with the idiot ball, then went back to normal afterward.
You perfectly summarized why I hate the Prometheus movie so much. I had a list several pages long, but yeah - "Everyone is stupid all the time" sums up most of it. The rest falls under "that's NOT how that works!!"
In a way, in "No Way Home", Spider-Man did kill the Green Goblin, but left Norman Osborne intact. It was kind of a one body two different people thing, and by curing Norman the Goblin was eradicated.
Can you do a video on good and bad trilogies? Like Toy Story 1-3, Pirates of the Caribbean 1-3. etc. I really like your video format and I think you should expand your writing advices to smaller topic if you could. By the way, the worst plot I've ever come across was Avenger's Endgame, with all the conveniences and plot holes to force a story.
Jaws Great. Jaws 2 ok... we don't go further.... Or Alien Great... Aliens Great.... we don't go further (though I have heard some good things about Romulus haven't seen it though). I had to edit as I thought of more. Terminator series, Predator. Ohhh so many good ones to go through.
@WriterBrandonMcNulty an example of a bad trilogy could definitely be Star Wars episode 7, 8 and 9. There are next to zero interconnections that make their stories anything close to nuanced.
I think Avengers Endgame has a great plot. Amazing writing. Paying off 10 main characters and like 50 side characters with tie offs for 21 other movies in truly amazing.
21:43 can’t forget that doctor strange didn’t discuss the details of the planet altering spell that he offered an impulsive teenager 5 minutes ago is one of the dumbest plot contrivances ever.
I think the problem with Amazing Spider-Man 2 is the same problem with Raimi's Spider-Man 3 and The Dark Knight Rises. Too many subplots, and less focus on a more central, strong one. It was the opposite case with The Dark Knight and Spider-Man 2 (which are the most successful). EDIT: - The Dark Knight was the next good example 😆 - OMG, i finally found someone who thinks the same about Rocky IV! - I totally agree with "we don't watch this film because of the plot, but it's still a bad plot". I would even go as far as saying "even if you don't look for a plot in this film, a good plot would still make it A LOT BETTER". Personally, i think the John Wick franchise suffers for the lack of plot. The first John Wick is pretty solid; we can all feel the protagonist's quest, and is usually used as an example of simple but effective premise. But each film we advance is each time more empty. It has amazing fight scenes, which is what we look for, BUT... if it had a powerful plot, the fights and the action would be a lot more amazing. This world and characters even had a lot of potential, but i feel it was wasted. Because the first film was about something sentimental, human. But the next films are just about beating the bad guys (more so if we consider the ending). There's not as much stakes or motivation. And the character is just empty; he talks very few times and his lines aren't even interesting.
Your inclusion of The Thing as an example here makes me think of an idea for your next video: movies that could have been over in 5 minutes if characters acted logically. While most of the Americans at that base would have only spoke English it would make sense for the radio operator (Childs) to know at least a few words of Norwegian since he would have heard that neighbouring base many times on the airwaves. Childs could have told the others that the Norwegian in the helicopter was warning them that the thing he was trying to kill was not a real dog.
I actually did a video on Across the Spiderverse because it suffers from #2, the scatterbrained plot. First, the conflict is Gwen’s issues, then Miles has the same problems with parents, then The Spot, then he gets sidelined to focus on person vs. Destiny, then towards the end he gets captured by ANOTHER villain who is the setup for the next movie. It was all over the place, and I didn’t enjoy it as much as many other people 😂
But isn't The Dark Knight filled with lots of plot holes though? The overall plot is enjoyable, but let's not pretend that it isn't contrived, especially when it comes to the Joker's plans going basically perfectly with no major hiccups.
It is. The biggest plot hole being that it is entirely too easy for the Joker to turn Harvey Dent. But its virtues greatly exceed its flaws. That said, I've never felt compelled to sit through it from start to finish again after seeing it and enjoying it in the movie theater.
It's worse with Skyfall. Somehow Javier Bardem was captured at the right time, his computer hacked the MI6 system at the right time to crash a train through a tunnel as he escapes? Really?
@glentz716 Harvey had always a little bit unstable since the beginning. He basically already turned mad when he found out Rachel died, it's obvious when he had conversations with Gordon. Joker didn't actually change him, just gave the little push.
@yashjoseph3544 that's the point of "ahead of the curve". He's not on the same level of your average crime lords. Unstoppable force. Beside, things actually didnt always perfectly go as he planned too tbf.
I think the reason why TASM 2 was overly saturated with differents plots and villians is because they wanted to set up the Sinister 6 in the final movie (which never happened).
Hahah this was almost super-long, like 30+ minutes. Had to cut down the script, then I spent all morning cutting down the actual video from 27 minutes to 24. I still think it's bloated haha, but I hope you enjoy it!
Was Deadpool and Wolverine a good plot? No. Was it fun as hell? Yes. The plot was stupid, but it totally fit the vibe. It was a ridiculous movie that I loved every minute of.
I think that the main exception when it comes to a coincidence is obviously the inciting incident that kicks off the whole plot, but also when the coincidence is the point of the plot. Like, if the plot is about how random chance has an outsized impact on our lives and how bas things can happen due to sheer luck, like in Crash, No Country for Old Men, or He Was a Quiet Man. Another way to subvert cause and effect is if the movie is extremely surreal and nothing makes sense and it's just about the bizarre vibes rather than any sort of coherent plot, like Eraserhead, Mulholland Drive, Inland Empire, eXistenZ, Vanilla Sky. Comedy movies also can subvert Cause and Effect to be hilarious, like in Monty Python, George of the Jungle, Ace Ventura, or Airplane! that deliberately break cause and effect to be funny by subverting expectations. Also, sometimes cause and effect can be literally broken in-universe, like how cause and effect don't work properly behind the shimmer in Annihilation, or like how the timeline gets so corrupted that things stop making sense entirely like in Primer, Coherence, or Don't Hug Me I'm Scared, and sometimes in Doctor Who. Also, not all movies have stakes. There are comedies that have stakes, but there are some that don't. There are slice-of-life movies that have stakes, but there are some that don't. There are surreal visual experiences and there are vibe movies with character interactions and/or visuals but no stakes like Call me By Your Name, Patterson, In the Heights, most of but not all of Hot Rod, and Valhalla Rising. Idiot plots can work if the idiocy is the source of tragedy or comedy or both, like in Burn After Reading or Fargo. Nobody could argue either of those two movies aren't self-aware of how dumb the characters are meant to be. I mean, yeah Fargo has dark comedy in it, but all of the senseless deaths as a result of all of the dumb characters' decisions including the innocent wife that did nothing wrong or dumb and was caught up in the mess by dumb luck was extremely tragic and dark. There are good multi-story movies like Crash. Minimalist stories work best in vibe movies, slice-of-life movies, action movies, slasher movies, splatter movies, and revenge movies. They can work in short character dramas that tackle overcoming a single problem, like drug addiction, but they definitely do not work in plot driven movies. If a movie is primarily about the story, then you need more than a tiny smidgeon of plot, ya know? The most barebones, threadbare, and barren movie ever made is probably that Clint Eastwood directed movie about and starring the actual soldiers who, in real life, managed to successfully thwart a terrorist attack attempt. That has to be one of the worst, most boring movies ever made, hardly anything ever happens in it because how are you going to make a 90 minute movie about an event that lasted mere seconds? Should have never been made, not every real-life event is substantive enough to make a 90 minute movie off of. Deadpool and Wolverine could've had a good plot, though. Just because you don't have an absolute need for a good plot, does not excuse the lack of a good plot. The movie could have been more than barely satisfactory if it had a good plot.
Saying no way home had a good plot was when you lost me. If anything that movie forced the plot by dumb decisions. Dr strange does spell without telling Peter the rules, Peter brings villains to the condo, Dr strange constantly blames Peter for his mistake making them go against each other, sandman and the lizard literally had no purpose the entire movie, I can go on and on
I still think the original King Kong is the gold standard for a plot that is logical and compact yet never rushed. The stakes are raised throughout, the character decisions have consequences, some tragic and there certainly is a great punch counterpunch element
An example of a bad Bare Bones Plot can also be seen in The Super Mario Bros Movie. The film has a really strong opening. You have Mario and Luigi, two young brothers from Brooklyn trying to be taken seriously as professional plumbers. They have people doubting them at every turn, from their former boss to their own father. The moment they're sucked into the Warp Zone and separated, not only does the pacing go crazy but the movie gets really boring. The chemistry between Chris Pratt and Charlie Day is too strong. But splitting them up isn't the problem. It's that the moment Luigi is captured, he does nothing until the climax; which is the strongest part of the story next to the first act. It doesn't help that the wasted opportunity was exposed big time a week after the premiere. The concept art was leaked online, revealing a canned story beat where Luigi was not only going to escape on his own, but orchestrate a jail break. From a marketing standpoint, I completely understand why Mario and Luigi are separated. It's so that Nintendo and Illumination can test audience reactions to Luigi carrying screentime on his own. It's all in the psychology. February 2022 saw Charlie Day express interest in Luigi's Mansion after watching his son play it. In March 2023, Day not only wholeheartedly wants a Luigi movie, but Chris Pratt has been talking about a Nintendo Cinematic Universe and specifically mentioned Luigi's Mansion. Couple that with videos, articles, posts and tweets in favour of a Luigi movie and there you go. Mario made an incredible amount of money within three days. There will absolutely be more coming, from sequels to spin-offs. Now that the universe has been established, the stories will be stronger. But I wanted to see a great story from the getgo. I predict that, looking back, the Mario movie won't be looked at as fondly.
15:27 I think predictable plots are a bit overhated. Don't get me wrong. A predictable plot is a fair critique of the movie but I dislike how people equate "the movie has a predictable plot" with "the movie lacks story substance and creativity" similar to how people equate bad plot with bad movie. Even if the plot is predictable or straightforward, the movie can still have engaging storytelling maybe with the characters, the themes, the narrative and so on. I see a lot of new aspiring writers trying to cram in storylines to make the movie unpredictable but in doing so it becomes a scatter-brain plot. Having a predictable plot has its advantages. It makes the audience focus more on the actual story substance like characters and themes and not get bored by some grandiose scheme or plot. I haven't watched Rocky IV but I have watched the recent Kung Fu Panda 4 and I think it suffers from the same situation as Rocky IV. I am a strong defender of the movie but its plot is more or less a bare bones one. We have Po teeming up with a fox thief, Zhen to face an evil sorceress called the Chameleon. We also have a subplot with Po's dads to pad the runtime. However, it would be unwarranted to say that this movie has no story substance at all. We have Po struggling to embrace change from dragon warrior to spiritual leader and that is the heart of the movie. Zhen may not be perfet writing wise but she does offer a fresh new dynamic to Po. Chameleon may not be as compelling or threatening as the previous villains but she has a lot of praiseworthy aspects apart from just action sequences and voice acting. She is a polar opposite to Po in many ways and she contrasts the movie's main theme. I know the predictable plot is not the only con of this movie. It has a rushed pace, lacks the emotional weightage of its predecessors, Shen and Kai have no dialogues but I think it is nonetheless a great addition to the franchise. Its not just a piece of cake to replicate the magic of the first two movies.
The novel version of Altered Carbon has a fantastic plot line, that manages to seamlessly blend a detective story, a revenge thriller, and a redemption arc all into one coherent whole.
Your insights are always well-established with evidence. I will have to disagree on the 'good' Spiderman No Way Home though. The movie is chock full of layer upon layer of improbable things that go too fast, and you need good working knowledge of something like 4-5 more movies just to follow what is happening. I just can't agree. A great many movies suffer from the same bloat of requiring audiences to have bodies of knowledge from previous movies and small screen spinoffs and shared universes to understand it all. As soon as that level of knowledge is required going into a movie, a red flag should go up for a wonky plot. It could still be fun, but it doesn't get a gold start for plotting.
The dog didn’t have anything to do with John wick, his wife could’ve left him a cactus instead of a dog and as long as the Russian gangsters didn’t mess with a cactus they would’ve been fine. His wife’s memory is what they disrespected, the dog didn’t have anything to do with it.
I actually feel like Romeo and Juliet is a great example of a GOOD idiot plot, where the point of the story is that these characters make idiot decisions akin to actual humans that do the same
Wow. After watching this video, I have concluded that the show Rings of Power has all 4 of these problems. That's honestly impressive, props to the writers.
Point 4 “internal journey” is actually just a type of plot/subplot, not something which makes a plot good. Many people find the inclusion of this kind of plot makes a story more meaningful, but it’s no different from other plots in that it has to follow points 1-3 to be good. You can visualize internal plots as a conflict between an angel and a devil like in old cartoons.
I don't see how Spider-Man no Way Home does not fall victim to every single mistake that the first example of bad plots have. For example, all of the characters make stupid decisions, like let's erase every memory in the universe rather than talk to the press, in a world where everyone knows the identities of all of The Avengers. At this point Peter Parker as Spider-Man is the replacement for Tony Stark as iron man. I'm pretty sure he could find someone with clout at MIT. In fact, since this is after civil war shouldn't Peter Parker already be registered? He fought on the side of registration in the civil war. The central dynamic of the entire film makes no sense at all considering previous films. If that is not an example of a bad plot I don't know what is.
A plot driven story unfolds as it is told. Plot can act like the creases in origami. Each crease holds pressure and purpose, with often perplexing intersections, to ultimately unveil a surprise or unexpected delight at the end. Predicaments and incidents are not plot. A ton of modern movies now are just about an incident that most 6th graders could guess 10 minutes into the film how it will be solved
I did like Deadpool and Wolverine, but although the stakes were clear, deadpools timeline being destoryed, it never felt like it was actually going to happen. And that was probably because when they were in thr void, it wasnt talked about much. There was no urgency
I'm just giving my 2 cents about Spiderman NWH. I think the plot is all-around excellent, but the setup could use a little bit of work. The fact that Dr. Strang used this super dangerous spell that he forgot to tell Peter all of the precautions for was soooo out of character, that it led people to think that he had been replaced by a Skrull. The solution to this was easy, too, in my eyes. Just have Dr. Strange tell Peter that it's far too dangerous of a spell to use, and then Peter goes behind his back and uses it anyway. BOOM, you still keep the central plot intact while not having to make Dr. Strange look like an idiot, and it better showcases that "with great power" them since Peter was the one to activate it.
I agree with you. No Way Home was a mixed bag. There were so many self-inflicted problems on the main characters, of such giant magnitude, that both Strange and Peter ended up looking like noobs rather than veterans of the Avengers.
I like that somehow "going to investigate the Norwegian station" is smarter than any of the other bone-headed moves in Prometheus. At least you pulled back on bringing back the specimen, but did you really? It's just a fact that mistakes drive story, just as they drive life. I'm not sure punishing a plot for having bone-headed decisions is logically sound.
Deadpool and Wolverine kicked ass, I saw it twice, the plot worked well enough for me, and it should honestly get nominated for Best Picture at the Oscars but the total lack of snob appeal or diversity angle (Black Panther, while good, made the BP cut largely due to the latter imho) will cost in a spot in the final ten.
The thing is with The Thing -- SPOILER -- SPOILER -- that they are doing the idiotic thing of splitting up over and over again. In that situation they definitely should always stick together and no one should wander alone. Even literally minutes after they resolve that blood test, we are not sure of them again, because guess what, they split up again! SPOILER -- SPOILER
Honestly, I feel like you could call No Way Home an Idiot Plot, particularly when Dr. Strange knows full well that the spell he's casting can have severe consequences on the universe but doesn't even stop to discuss what Peter wants before he begins casting it. Strange himself then points out that Peter was going to use multiverse altering magic instead of a more mundane solution, which is basically just an excuse to get the plot-inciting spell to happen. Then Peter also brings a bunch of fully powered supervillains to that apartment, trusting that all of these people who outnumber him (and threaten him!) will just behave. Lizard is even left outside with no supervision.
Loved Deadpool & Wolverine, its not meant to be Shakespeare, its meant to be the way it is and was brilliantly entertaining, the multi-verse part was only there to take the piss out of it just like everything else, it was a huge fun movie, perfect for fans of both characters, a colourful joke-book, an already iconic opening sequence, a laugh-riot a minute and stunningly shot with excellent acting by all concerned. So i don't agree with your points, I also prefer KRULL... (*Family guy joke*) :P
Worst plot might be Spider-Man 3. I tried to revisit it recently and love it for its flaws but oh my god, the plot is only driven by quite literally every character making decisions that are either irrational or contrary to who we know them to be in the previous two movies: - Peter kisses Gwen IN FRONT of MJ and then is baffled when she rejects his proposal that same day - MJ resents Peter for not understanding her turmoil from losing her broadway role, but doesn’t tell him she lost the gig - Harry’s butler forgets to mention Norman killed himself on accident after watch Harry ruin his life blaming Spider-Man - Peter, a brilliant student of science, is consumed by a living black alien substance and just thinks oh cool! I’m stronger! - Harry’s brain injury sets his memory back to high school, but he has nothing in his house somehow to remind him about Norman’s death and conflict with spider-man? - Sandman is created by accidentally falling into a molecular experiment and the scientists studying it don’t notice a large man was in there?
One of the plots i don't really enjoy are "Too Smart" plots where it's (usually) a Science Fiction and you practically need a playbill to explain to you everything that's going on and how it connects. I can't really think of any examples, probably because they're so convoluted, it's hard to remember them.
"Idiot plot" describes in its entirety what happened on the season finale of Game of thrones: stupid, ilogical decisions, lack of use of common sense, etc.
I'm sorry, but I don't agree with you about Deadpool and Wolverine at all. The same things about Deadpool and Wolverine could be said about Spider-Man: No Way Home, especially regarding previously dead villains like Green Goblin, Doc Ock, and Electro. Just like Wolverine, they were brought back through the multiverse. The only differences are that the Wolverine variant in this movie is similar but different from the original, and the aforementioned villains were brought back from points before their deaths. Regarding one of the villains, Paradox is not brain-dead; he is an arrogant villain who believes anyone can be easily swayed. Villains like him have existed for years. Palpatine is similar to Paradox, and Voldemort is like Paradox as well. All three were written to manipulate heroes into doing things they wouldn’t normally do, and, mind you, Star Wars and Harry Potter are your favorite movies. About the "predictable ending", I assure you it wasn't that predictable; because it was established that matter and anti-matter from the time ripper was gonna kill Deadpool, Wolverine, or both. That brings me to another topic: no stakes for regenerative character. The stakes remain high despite Deadpool and Wolverine's regenerative abilities. Deadpool's personal journey to save his timeline and to replace his universe’s anchor being with a Wolverine. That's just talking about the journey, in terms of the action scenes, there are stakes because Wolverine will die if he get his head cutoff, that's an establish Wolverine always. That may not be the case for different versions of Wolverine in the comics, but that's his main weakness. If Wolverine died in any of the fight scenes in this movie, then that's it. Deadpool's misison is kaput and Parodx or Cassandra Nova would have more extreme measures to keep him foiling their plans the same way again. Also, no meaningful side in immediate danger? Dude, there's Deadpool's friends, those are meaningful side characters given their history with Wade. So, yeah, I can't take your criticisms of D&W seriously.
In all my years I never stopped to think about story and plot being completely different aspects. It also brings into light where I might be struggling with my current project since entering Act II. Thanks for such an insightful video Brandon!
Bringing the corpse back in The Thing makes perfect sense, they're researchers at a research station, of course they want to research a crazy find like that. All their research equipment is back at base & it's giving every sign of being very dead. Probably would've been better if they took more precautions, but it was the 80s & the short story was originally written in the 50s I think.
Hey Brandon, I was wondering if you could work on a video focused on filler contents in a story, how it could be used and how to do it. At times I feel that my story that’s a long journey across the world can be a bit too fast if the plot keeps on progressing, I feel like it’s valuable to slow it down a bit to build the characters in a non plot active way
Interesting. Though we don't want "Filler" exactly, I think I know what you mean... Slowing things down, lighter moments, etc. I'll see about cooking up a video on this. Thanks!
Great Video !! I loved the Palpatine Jokes !! 🤣🤣 !! I like that you mention that a bad plot is still a bad plot even if Deadpool & Wolverine is an action entertainment character driven movie. I haven't watched it or any of the Fox movies because R-rated action and comedy are just not my thing. I can't say the best or worst plot I have ever seen but I will give a good plot and bad plot example. SPOILERS !!! Godzilla vs Kong (2021) surprised with how better it was compared to other MonsterVerse entries like Godzilla (2014) and Godzilla: KOTM in terms of plot, narrative and pacing. I was not just entertained by the monster action but also because the plot felt engaging. I was never bored when they cut from the monster mashing to the plot progression. I think its because the movie had a clear concise direction for its storylines. We see Kong being difficult to contain in a facility and wanting a new home, Godzilla becoming hostile to humanity, Apex Cybernatics having some secrets and the scientists Dr. Andrews, Nathan and Jia having their own personal conflicts but they all tie really well. The movie takes its time to build and gradually develop each of the storylines while providing occasional monster action. This movie gives time to breathe between the monster action while also not boring the audience with a complex or disinteresting plot. I will rate it a 7 or 7.5/10 Godzilla x Kong: The New Empire (2024), however, brings the MonsterVerse back to underwhelming narrative, weak plot and improper pacing. The initial half of the movie was very rushed. It was like the movie was in a hurry to get into Hollow Earth as soon as possible to kick-start monster action scenes instead of gradually building excitement like it was in Godzilla vs Kong. Then it felt like just because fans only care about the action and find the human characters annoying, most of the time is devoted to the monsters while the humans are left to the side and for those who want just monsters, they would be happy but I personally think it made the human storylines even more disinteresting because they are underdeveloped. Now you may bring out that in the initial half of the movie, Jia feels like she does not belong anywhere but then she finds an Iwi tribe and still wants to stay with Dr. Andrews but it felt forced because it was not developed gradually. Compare that with the arc between Jia and Kong in Godzilla vs Kong which had gradual development. Also that the movie's plot does not deliver on the title. Godzilla is sidelined throughout the movie and becomes a major character only like in the 2nd half just because of the sake of it. Like I get it Kong needed an ally but their team-up is not developed. Its just done for the sake of it. When they meet, they get a fight and Mothra comes and clams them down. The movie did have a few redeeming qualities that make me think of it as an alright movie. I will rate it a 6.5/10. So yeah I know the MonsterVerse movies are popcorn action movies with some of the entries do having engaging human drama but Godzilla vs Kong had surprised me its well-structured plot so I thought future movies would have that but I was disappointed. Maybe the sequel to Godzilla x Kong can reach those narrative heights. Transformers, a franchise heavily criticized for its characters and plots managed to surprise fans with Rise of the Beasts. It was not perfect, the plot still had some issues but the human characters were definitely engaging, making the movie one of the better franchise entries so I hope MonsterVerse makes a similar comeback.
Thank you for calling out Prometheus. Besides the dumb plot, I find that grandiose philosophical questions like seeking the origins of humanity, rarely make good stories.
Dunno. I think the point of Promethus is dissapointment in your creator. Vickers hired the whole crew for her father. We come to find (if paying attention) that she hates her father and his whole obsession. This quietly explains why the crew (the punk mapper, the goofy biologist) was repeatedly incompetent. She didn't hire the best. And the incompetent human choices contrast with David's extreme competence, reinforcing the main point of the movie. (and arguably - incompetence contributes to emotional engagement with a horror movie, Don't go in the basement. stick together.)
It is a bad Alien movie. The point of the Alien franchise is that corporations will do anything to take advantage of nature and it will destroy everyone. Weyland-Yutani takes will do anything to take advantage of the Xenomorphs which will only destroy everyone. Ridley Scott should made an original IP for Prometheus. Xenomorphs are parasites from nature but now Xenomorphs are just a crazy robot’s experiment.
Best plot is tough, but worst plot is David Ayer’s Suicide Squad. The team is a covert ops group used to clean up America’s dirty secrets, but are then sent into a danger zone to save the woman who made the group. Seems more like a job for the military personnel who accompanied the Squad on the mission for some reason.
