Ballerina Farm and the illusion of choice for Mormon women 

The fact that the only reason there’s millions of eyes on the farm is because of her social media & yet he’s the sole person on all the business ownership docs says a lot. It certainly doesn’t say co-CEOs. He needs to build another small barn on all that land for a studio. It’s ridiculous!!

When he said they both do 50/50 cuz he does the laundry & also said she ends up in bed for a week from exhaustion, clearly she’s doing too much. If he wants more kids, she should have help. That article was flawlessly written & we need more journalism like that.

Feminism is about liberation. It's about social, economic and political power for women. It's not about making women happy.

My mom has had 5 natural births (at home, with a midwife, no medication). She has six children and the first birth she had was in the hospital and completely uncomfortable and a horrible experience from how she talks about it. I feel completely and truly love by my mother, I see how happy motherhood has made her. I see how from being a little little girl she wanted to have her own family. I see how her eyes light up and her spirit is lifted when her kids are home. I say all this to say that so much of traditionalism is based on the premise that this will build happy families and happy homes. The truth that I see is that in cases like ballerina farms, where the woman had great ambitions, but was forced to sacrifice them for the sake of having a family they don’t lead to truly happy homes. Children are so intuitive, they recognize when their parents are unhappy. There is an unease that settles in the relationship between child and parents when as the child matured and realizes they are the product of the sacrifices the parents had to make. I know what it felt like to be loved by a mom who loved it, and didn’t have to sacrifice career ambitions to be a mother. It was amazing because I know she CHOSE that for herself, just like how she chose to have unmediated births. I’m not saying ballerina farms isn’t a great mom in a lot of aspects, but I have seen children who are the result of self sacrificial mothers. While there is love and appreciation there, there is an underlying sense of guilt, grief, and shame. The moms do it for the kids, and the worst thing is, it often doesn’t even make the children happy.

I've got 3 kids and struggle to meet all their needs, I can't imagine 8! I was an only child and wanted a bigger family but I had no idea what that actually looked like. After 3 it was abundantly obvious that I was doing the best with the resources I had, but I was running out of resources. No. More. Kids

On the co-CEO thing… Jordan and McKay got the business filing/registration and her name isn’t even on it

So happy you guys are talking about this and the fiction of traditional Mormon women having choice. I also would like to add something about ballet (I am a former pre-professional ballet dancer). Ballet is also incredibly focused on extreme hard work, discipline, compliance, obedience to teachers, and being corrected by authorities (like teachers). I have noticed that a lot of my own tendencies to morph myself into the desire of others comes from not just my upbringing as a Mormon girl but also influences like preprofessional ballet. I am curious if that is also something factoring into Hannah’s psychology.

Staying in bed for a week at a time sounds like depression, not just exhaustion. Or perhaps some sort of autoimmune condition. I shouldn't speculate, but I think people who just say it's exhaustion are missing a big part of the picture.

Parentified children are often expected to take care of their parent's emotional needs as well, not just their younger siblings.

Ex-vangelical here, who used to protest outside of women's clinics, but is now very pro-choice: you perfectly outlined an underlying doubt I had about my church's stance on abortion. God would know what to do with those souls (probably total redemption) and they were guaranteed to be in the presence of God without ever suffering the pain of life. But I pushed those thoughts down for years and towed the party line. So glad I am free of those beliefs that brought such cognitive dissonance.

I agree with you about the “falling into” gender role situation. It happened in my first marriage and it be me in the ass, so in my second marriage I taught my partner how to cook because what if I get sick or dies or break a leg? I can’t be the only one who shops and cooks a healthy meal.

One of the shifts I experienced when living solo for the first time was experiencing cooking as play rather than an obligation or activity that determines my worth. It gave me more grace to fail and accidentally make yuck things without the patriarchal inner critic telling me I'm not marriage material

One detail: she actually did finish Juillard and did work for a tiny while as a ballerina. But then she gave birth again and it got to complicated.

I do agree it seemed super odd that the journalist couldn’t get any alone time with Hanna. She’s the “star” Hanna is the one that everyone wants to hear from.

About the ballerina farm family - its so sad to see how mean he is to her, how she’s dealing with all of his behavior and gets no help with the kids on top. I‘d need a week if sleep after just a day of her life Also the sequence about traditional roles and life at the beginning was soo interesting

What’s most upsetting about the whole birthday egg apron thing is that in the clip she says “oh it’s my egg apron”. Based on that I 100% believe she must have ordered it herself and he probably stole it to try and pass it off as a gift.

"Glad the cows are getting a good show" is a devastating quote

Thanks for talking about how older children get parentified. It's my lived experience and it's so validating to hear someone say it's not the best for development. I feel like I never had the experience of just being a kid. Love that you guys added that as a nuance of this situation.

I was parentified growing up in a Mormon family of 7 kids. A lot of my brothers and sisters ended up struggling with drug abuse, my older brother died pretty young from drug addiction. He always used to be the one to ask our mom why she had so many kids and asked her to stop having kids, he was probably the most honest kid in our family. I always thought it was so rude of him to say that but now that I'm an adult I realize it was just a cry for attention because he was being neglected. I don't think parentification is talked about enough. I raised my little brother while my mom worked 3 jobs and my education was also neglected. I never knew what grade I was in and was always embarrassed whenever people would ask me, it impacted my self-esteem to this day. Family planning is so important. I am pretty against big families because I think they tend to be the most dysfunctional, especially the Mormon ones 😬 I might be a little biased.

Just in response to your discussion about being indoctrinated to have lots of kids: I was raised mormon and married too young. I always thought i wanted four kids, and my husband agreed that was a good idea. I was lucky to have four healthy kids exactly as planned. But then it was time to make a permanent decision about stopping. I agonized about it for years because i was still young (26 with my last) and healthy, and we had enough money that we could afford more children, so I didnt know if it would be ok for me to stop "just" because i wanted to and because i didnt think i could emotionally handle more kids. I didnt decide to have more, thank goodness. I realized that if my desire to stop wasnt a good enough reason, then there was no other barrier to having baby after baby until menopause, and that sounds like a nightmare. So i figured my desire must be enough reason. Left the church when our youngest was seven. I am making sure my daughters have more free choices than i did.

I will say something about beauty pageants: my best friend at BYU got into beauty pageants and competed in the Miss Utah pageant multiple times, she's now Mrs Virginia Americana. For her, pageants are about more than just being pretty. She has to train and show off her talent. They had lots of events and training with the other contestants leading up to the pageant, so it was a huge social circle for her, too. It's something that's very edifying for her body and gave her a reason to practice the piano and do charity work. I feel like it could be something like that for ballerina farm. I'm sure she danced for her talent which means she had a reason to take some time away from her family to dance. She got to spend a week away from her kids during the pageant (because they usually all have to stay in the same hotel). Although competing right after having a baby is absolutely wild. But it seems like a reason to do something for herself that her husband would approve of because it makes him look good to be married to a pageant queen.

One of the corporal punishment tools used by the IBLP was for infants & toddlers & called “blanket training.” Pretty much what it sounds like … you train your babies to stay on the blanket, even if you leave the room briefly, and if they don’t comply, they get hit with a switch, sternly reprimanded, and put back on the blanket. There is no limit to how many times a parent can go thru this cycle at any given time. The entire premise of blanket training is to break your child’s will, which any child development expert will tell you is akin to abuse.

A central part of their brand is that they live in the middle of nowhere like true homesteaders, but in reality, they’re only about 30 minutes from Park City, which is anything but country bumpkin. It’s very misleading as is their sale of meat from their farm. In small print, it says the meat “may come from partner farms,” yet they never identify who these partner farms are anywhere in the fine print or on their social media. The consumer doesn’t know if they’re getting meat from Ballerina Farm or not, yet they’re certainly paying that premium price for the brand.

How much easier to live a "simple" life when you have Millions!

Also, since they've had 8 kids, she's literally been pregnant for 9 months, then 9 months break, for their whole 12 YEAR MARRIAGE 😮😮😮😮😮

Question re no pain relief during birth: years ago I read a story written by a woman who escaped from the FLDS. She said that women are expected to give birth without pain relief (because that's Eve's curse), but also supposed to give birth SILENTLY. The author cited that a group of young women were trotted into the room she was labouring in to watch her give birth as an example, because she had managed to not scream when delivering any of her babies. Would that be something taught in the mainstream LDS?

TBH, making your wife care for 8 children by herself is abusive. I know people will argue she’s agree to this lifestyle to an extent , however, I’d argue that she may not have the space to say no to anything her husband commands. We know they are involved with a high demand religion that tells women that men are the leaders 🤷🏾‍♀️ and that the opinion of women is secondary to their husband’s desires.

As someone in her 40s who was a dancer all through her childhood in some form (different styles), it never leaves you. Considering she's so indoctrinated to squish any of her desires, she'll be doing that often. She basically is also too exhausted to even CONSIDER her own desires, dreams and more. It's fully about control of her and ensuring she stays dependent.

A huge red flag for me (until then I was open minded after only reading the article) - there is not a single good reason for a man of his means (literally billions built on fleets of private jets) to have his wife not have a car or other means of access to the outside world on her own. And mind you, SLC is 40+ mins away so it's not like she's zipping away, living out the SATC life in a Lambo 😂 Even if it's purely for convenience or safety. My husband and I earn good money and with us both working and living in central London (after being in Manhattan for a few years), we don't need or want a car. But we've spoken about eventually moving out, even 30 mins door to door from downtown, and me potentially staying at home with the kids for their first few years. He's said in that case, "you're not going to be here sitting duck alone at the mercy of god knows who if there's an emergency with a kid or yourself," and we're definitely getting a car for me if only for peace of mind. He also made a great point (whereas I’m normally a cheapskate when it comes to justifying something big just for me), “what if it’s 11am on a Wed and you’ve just about lost your mind over the stress of a long week and half more to go, you have the option of calling a sitter (fortunate enough that his work gives us about 40 days worth of on-call paid for on-call/as-needed babysitting service per year), won’t you want a car to just drive out and go shopping or get your nails done or your eyebrows tattooed or whatever to decompress?” Other than the fact that he might think my eyebrows are tattooed on, he was so right!! That is liberty in its pure form, that we’re lucky enough to be able to afford (certainly that would have been above any means that I grow up in). I completely understand it's not an option for every family and it’s the woman who pays the price (if a couple can only afford one car and the husband needs it as the primary breadwinner) in feelings of isolation, alienation and desperate loneliness. But in this case, it doesn't make any sense other than purely as a means to control and keep her there. With their resources (that he clearly feels every bit entitled to using himself) to not even have a car for her, honestly… I’d think it’d be completely reasonable for their circumstances to have her car there just for her enjoy or just in case it is actually needed, and he should be encouraging her trying to make time for herself.

I was homeschooled in a Mormon household of 13 kids. I was known as the baby whisperer because I was so good at getting them to sleep. Often as a teen, I would hold the twins (one placed in the front of my overalls the other in the back).

I believe that you CANNOT be happy if you are not free

Question for everyone that I’m really curious about- we know motherhood isn’t for everyone… are there any women here who did not get told in their patriarchal blessing that they would be a mother?? I’ve never talked to anyone who wasn’t told that

This is an example of undue influence from the husband/man. Am I against trad wives? No. However I’m against when they’re coerced to be a trad wife against their own will via undue influence/peer pressure.

22:53 Yep! Daniel’s 43 staffers to Hannah’s 1 staffer (a cleaner) just says it all!

A week in bed sounds more like depression to me.

The correction of the mother by the children…some of that is likely the dad & culture of how he communicates w/his wife, their mother. Its a level of respect thing…

So from someone who was raised Lutheran, yes in the Bible god did not have sex with Mary. Thats why the virgin birth was supposed to be so miraculous, cause she had never had sex. Also at least in my church (and from Catholic friends they also got this sermon), it was the topic of several sermons about Marys yes. Like it was emphasised that Mary consented ("let it be done to me, according to your word"), that its in the Bible that she agreed to this.

Unironically, I wish there was “trad” malewife content. Him making sourdough bread and food from scratch, tending to the garden, etc (all happily, of course).

It’s like an even more effed up 50 shades. With babies and chores instead of BDSM.

Tanner is a very handsome ballerina.

The bed in the week was depression .

This was my exact experience with Mormonism. I would have said I was happy, because I never even allowed myself to consider what I wanted. I was told to be a mom and stay home like God wanted, and I do love taking care of my home and I love my children. But I want to fully experience lots of roles, like men are allowed to do. I can be a mother and lots of other things, too.

Abortions are physically and mentally stressful and i think we should do everything we can to reduce the need for them. Good sex ed and access to birth control is not that difficult to do and it's the bare minimum. To reduce the need even further: -access to affordable childcare -minimum wages -affordable housing There are probably many more thing that could be done... Also in the case of america, who wants to go through 9 months of pregnancy only for the kid to get traumatized or even killed in a school shooting?

HARD agree that autonomy and freedom are better than just happiness. Of course I want for myself and my children to be happy in our lives, but happiness is literally just an emotion. Humans have tons of them and we should be able to feel them all. I was happy in Mormonism. When I left, I was in so much turmoil and sadness. And I still feel that often. But being free from a cult mentality and gender roles that were engrained in me is better than being stuck somewhere I couldn't be true to my human nature and experience. That's the gem of leaving religion, gaining self awareness and seeing our world as it really is. I know many people in Mormonism that put such pressure on themselves to be happy or reverent all the time. They have to stuff down any other emotions and thoughts and then feel so much shame for having normal reactions to things. Ugh!

13:50 I grew up with a stay at home mom and 6 siblings. I don't like trad wifes because of the system around them, not because they can stay at home. people who choose to stay home and raise kids do a lot of hard work. and they should be allowed to make that choice. but trad wifes and their lifestyle, specially Mormons, say that that is the only morally corect choice. and if you dont find joy in it, that doesnt matter. if it make you miserable thats your fault and you should just suck it up. My mom went back to school to become an accountant when I was in middle school. and it changed her life. it changed all of our lives, and for the better. it drastically changed her relationship with my older siblings, it allowed us to leave the church, and it made her happy. and let me tell you, when your stay at home parent is miserable, that fucking sucks and does so much damage to everyone. I think the "traditional" lifestyle is dangerous because I saw someone break away from it. and I saw how much that changed their life for the better. being a stay at home parent isnt for everyone. and when you live in a system that insists on all women doing it you end up with disfuntional families and hurt people who dont have the space to even recognize their pain.

I bet they'll make sure whichever kid is gonna inherit the business will get a great education in the end. The rest of the kids? They're probably out of luck.

She’s a breeder raising more breeders. Sad

On a scout camp few years ago I was a cook for 30 people for 4 days. I was cooking on a old stove with wood I had to chop. We were in a cabin in mountains and I LOVED it, but I was up before everyone and stayed in the kitchen till 5 pm - and after an hour or two I had to go back to prepare supper. I love cooking but I have adhd so daily I can’t stand being for 2 or 3 hours in kitchen making meals, bc it takes all my energy for house chores. It’s cooking or cleaning, I have to choose one

The egg apron was handmade in Ukraine, he was proud of that fact. 😅

We’re all a little Trad-Curious 😂

Still learning a lot about mormonism, I've been hearing a lot about ballerina farm, but haven't heard the ex mormon perspective until this video. Thank you for contextualizing some of the confusing parts about this situation.

11:35 I call it “returning home” in recognition that we ARE the land, the earth. We are of the earth, it’s a closed system. It’s not going back, it’s not going anywhere, it’s just turning around and seeing our place, we’re already home, tethered within our community of all our relations. Recognition is necessary to sustain life and love on this planet, and ensure a future for all of us. It’s facts.

At my bible college, one annoying immature dude wore down a pretty girl and eventually they married. Later on, my Bible study group was lead by a couple who had a similar start - the man kept pursuing her until the pastor finally had to shame her into dating the guy. She told their story matter of fact but it was transparent the husband was far more in love with his wife than she was of him.

Playing at being a Farmer. but feeling morally superior while CosPlaying. EYE ROLL.....

Spending a week in bed sounds like depression, to me.

To me the fact that he turned the space that was supposed to be her dance studio into a school room for her to teach the kids speaks volumes as to what he’s all about. He saw this ballerina- physically perfect the way Mormon women are supposed to be and obviously someone with ambition and drive along with her dreams. He pursued her. He stalked her. Every time she said no or wait, he brushed it aside. It’s so rapey!!!! It’s all about his ability to tame her and put her in her place and keep her under control. He obviously revels in his position of patriarch with absolute control over her. With all of his money he could have built another space for the classroom or for a studio for her. The egg apron with no trip to Greece is another indication. This is just mean spirited. He’s a mean predator in my mind.

You guys are so fucking smart and empathetic and beautiful this channel has helped me and my friends deconstruct religious shame THANK YOUUUU

One of the most heartbreaking & infuriating clips from the deep dive that Jordan & McKay did was for Hannah‘s birthday. She had given all kinds of hints of wanting to go on a trip, mainly to Greece, & Daniel handed her a bday present in the kitchen, completely unwrapped in a cardboard box, & she opens it, making a lot of references to maybe it’s plane tickets to Greece. It turned out to be an egg apron made by a Ukrainian farmer’s wife. So her husband gives her basically a chore, to add to the million she already has, as a birthday present. You could tell she was taken a back but trying to look happy about the egg apron. Hannah didn’t really thank him and so then Daniel makes a point of making her say thank you on camera. It was so gross & disturbing.

I stopped going to church after my second child (raised in the church). And still felt guilty for only having two kids, even though they are both special needs. Wild

Its hard to see how she has time fot all these children..someone is losing out in that home...😢😢😢

I think the non-answer about feminism comes from her being very media trained tbh. It still could be authentic, but it could also be her avoiding a clear stance as to not offend anyone

How trad is the trad life style of a billionaire? I have my doubts they actually do any of the work except for when a camera is on them. Also I'm not gay but if there is a billionaire man out there that want's me to quit my career and become his trad wife you can count me in!

Saw you are reading 👟 among the knee fights! I doubt it was because of my suggestion but I did recommend that back when you were reading Charley! Maybe someday you could release some of those chapters on RU-vid? I would love to support your patreon if I somehow start making more money but I kinda doubt that

Rich people LARPing to be poor? Again? What can possibly go wrong? I guess the movie "The Village" is more real than we thought

Oh yes, doing an episode on fat shaming would be so interesting. I’m a doctor and I see so much fat phobia in medicine. I think physicians who poo poo using Ozempic do so because being thin is a visible way of showing superiority. Having access to a medication to obtain thinness would take away their outward evidence of moral superiority.

20:05 her husband can afford to buy tickets to go to Greece 🇬🇷. That’s what made me so mad. Hopefully she comes to the light and dumps him.

I just wanna go back to a time before lead poisoning and microplastics in rain. :(

If I had a nickel for every Christian conservative who “convinced” his wife to give up her dreams and ambitions to be a SAHM and take care of their kids, I would have two nickels. Which isn’t much but it is weird that its happened twice.

It's so hard to find a non-Mormon or conservative take on this story so I appreciate this a lot!

Spit out my wine when I saw the thumbnail

I went to public school in Gilbert, AZ and I can testify that Mormonism was definitely heavily spilled into my education. I know more about a religion I was never a participant

Morman Trad Wife Final Boss is hilarious. Lol

I think the interaction between the husband and wife is perfectly normal to them given the context of the culture they were both raised in. I also have noticed than oftentimes that people in abusive relationships tend to have a lot of denial about them. What is obvious to an outsider can be completely invisible to the people in the dynamic.

I love your guys' videos! It's been cool to see exMo video creators commenting on this since it has been so big lately after the journalist interviewed her

I think her children answering for her, and the section where she kept getting corrected by one of her kids, shows how little respect her children are being taught to have for their mom.

His father owned jet blue come on. They. Ensnared. Her.

I watched a couple of her cooking videos and what strikes me in several of them is all the work and effort she puts into the meals and then they are eaten standing up or the kids take bites just standing next to the stove. And not just with things like sandwiches or cookies and such that are often eaten standing/walking etc. but with a meal consisting of several courses e.g. soup, fish and vegetables. Somehow I think all this effort deserves a bit more respect than just being devoured in such a way. Just sitting at the kitchen table with some normal dishes and cutlery would do.

Yeah nah, I don’t agree with that journalist's take at all - I think people are unhappy with this because women in particular see this and know that there are men out there who will expect this. Also, it's just another example of "putting on a smile" for us when so many mums in particular are just ready to lose their sh*t on a daily basis and this is being toted as "goals" or "how we should be as mothers". Nara Smith doesn’t bother me at all - I feel like no one is looking at her and thinking that they'll be expected to make coke from scratch in a ball gown regularly. But BF is out there presenting their life as aspirational when it honestly sounds like a living nightmare for most.

Literally starting fist pumping the air when I saw this finally popped up on my mindless RU-vid scrolling

I’d be curious to hear y’all get into Mormon homeschooling. I was homeschooled after elementary school, but we weren’t in Utah. I am in Utah, and homeschooling my oldest, now, but I have seen some wild stuff in the homeschool Facebook groups.

The perfect antidote to a hectic work week

Random theology student here, i just wanted to point out that Mary did actually say yes (Luke 1:38). It is absolutely debatable if that counts as informed constent, when you are a Young Woman that just got a surprise visit by an angel telling her that she was about to somehow get pregnant through the power of the holy spirit. And the holy spirit is (at least in hebrew) FEMALE. So I can‘t find any proof for this „God has a Penis“-thing that seems to be a common narrative in the Mormon Church in that story either.

Guys this is why my commune would have a central portion with all the places to hang out and such so you can socialize when you want. But then the homes are further out, so if we wanna be anti-social, we can. And we can have a communal garden and our own personal gardens! And communal cookouts! Does this eventually present a problem size and shape wise, yes. But that is so we dont get TOO CULTY.

Love y'all's videos, just commenting for the algorithm:)

What you mean by “illusion of choice”?Everyone choose what she wants and that choices shouldn’t be only your favorite ones

Have you guys done a video on articles of faith? I don’t even remember why we memorized those. I swear they were never used outside of 11 year olds needing to memorize them to move into the next youth group. And funny we never memorized the 10 commandments, and I don’t think we spoke about them either.

Having grown up in a family of "farmers" who grew & canned their food, had no "ready made" food, raised & slaughtered their meat, dug out the outhouse, hauled the water from the well, women sewing the clothes, men going to labor jobs for the paycheck, all from families of 8-15 children in which girls of 14 got married in early 1900's and had their 1st child, the generational effect ensured I got A's until I could get through law school and get a professional career. Only folks who have no clue would do this. The YT people are doing in for a larger profit from their performative cosplay.

The story is so sad, especially when her studio area was converted to the space for teaching the children.

I am a faithful member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons), and I fall under the "trad wife" category. I met my husband when I was 18, got engaged at 19, married at 20, and had my first child before I turned 21. I stay at home with our three children, now, and we're planning on having more. Obviously my choices were influenced by the LDS culture I grew up in, just as everyone's choices are influenced by the cultures they grow up in. So what? I don't regret them. I wasn't forced or tricked into them. I wasn't blind to the other opportunities open to me; I just chose the one that genuinely seemed the most appealing to me. Maybe stop assuming that women who belong to the LDS church have no choices simply because they're choosing to do what they believe God has asked them to do.

Glad to hear y'all talking about Pete Buttigieg. He's been killing it in the media in general but what won me over is all he's been achieving as Secretary of Transportation. It's been a long time since I've been excited about a politician but he seems like the real thing. I see his Naval officer background in him really well too (prior Navy enlisted).

you may want to check o it Co-Housing :)) there are over 100 in the US and there's one in Salt Lake called Wasatch Commons! it's what Sam is talking about... we share hammers and garden together -- love your content as always

If you look up their business her name isn't on a single document she is not a co ceo

People who are proponents of "natural" family planning (ie no birth control) and having large families, forget that consuming enough calories to be constantly fertile is only common since the industrial revolution. Before that, people would be eating very different amounts of calories through out the year, and some years would be better than others, based on climate conditions. Women stop menstruating and so cannot get pregnant when their BMI goes below a certain level, ie when their weight declines due to insufficient calorie consumption. That is the evolutionary form of birth control that existed before hormonal and chemical birth control was created. It's not normal for humans and women to have unlimited access to calorie consumption, all day every day. So it's not normal for women to be getting pregnant every 10 months, nor is it good for their bodies in the long run.

You lived in Flagstaff? Living there at the moment and that’s so cool, didn’t know that

I can't wait for a video from you on fat phobia ❤️❤️❤️

Ex mo here, however this article was extremely biased. One of the more subtle examples is how the writer refers to Hannah only by her (her husband's) last name and Daniel by his first... intentionally conveying her *opinion* that Hannah has lost her identity. I think the main reason it has gone viral is because people like to project their insecurities instead of reflect on them. The huge number of people who feel threatened by her lifestyle cannot be denied. The release of the additional article was definitely damage control. They welcomed her into their home, and I can only imagine what they felt after reading the way she negatively conveyed their lifestyle and disrespectfully spoke of their children. Mormon or not, Hannah is a powerhouse. Her husband is as well, and they work well together. "Feminism" does not mean supporting only the women who work the way you want, or whose decisions reflect your own. I've noticed that culture has shifted to where people are unwilling to sacrifice much of themselves. Hopefully the pendulum will rest somewhere in the middle someday.

Random thought but…Yall need to check out Joel Sallatin…in a lot of peoples world view the way they harvest food is in fact more sustainable and “better for the planet”…just saying

I’m a trad curious ex evangelical. I feel this entire thing so much lol

39:51 Pro-choice Roman Catholic convert here, and I find the concept of 'exceptions' for abortion bans absolutely morally bankrupt: the RC church teaches (erroneously imho) that 'life' begins w conception. My understanding of biblical and practical facts about life beginning corresponds w Tanner's eloquent rant, that spirit, life, and breath all start at the same time. But if you have to insist that sleeping through biology class and refusing knowledge is a virtue, and you _have_ to be humored about life starting when sperms meets egg, then aborting a child of incest is every bit as much murder as shooting someone. There can't _be_ exceptions. If any exceptions are permitted, then we're tipping our hand that we _know_ this procedure isn't a crime, and we just don't _dig the vibe_ of letting an adult woman make decisions about whose life she supports and when. And for those put off by my pro-choice stance, let me be clear: if a 12-year-old girl is impregnated by her father and she decides that she should have that baby, then she should be supported and cared for (away from her abusive home) and allowed to carry that decision through. I'm not 'pro abortion,' because I consider other peoples' medical treatment to be medically neutral. 1:00:58 So, controversial take on this one, but I actually read the Announciation as a kind of request for consent: the angel shows up and says, "Hey girl, you're gonna bear the messiah!" And Mary's first response, which could have been 'who are you and how did you get into my room?' Is instead to ask, "How could this be? I've never known a man!" And the angel is vague on the detail, but describes something that is _going to happen_ . I picture an Angel appearing to some other girl in Nazareth, we'll call her Judith because I love _Life of Brian_ . And the angel starts to tell her about her good fortune, and instead of accepting any of it she's like, "has G-d MET my father? He'll stone me to death before I can even tell him you were here. Plus my sister and I went hungry a lot as children and she died in childbirth 3 years ago when she was my age, remember? You know Mary up the road? I feel like she's holier than me anyway..." props to Judith for standing up for herself. Mary voices none of these concerns, and the last thing she says to the angel is, "then let it be so with me according to your will," which sounds to _me_ like unequivocal, if not enthusiastic, consent. And informed consent consent at that, since she got to ask question first. As for G-d having literal human-type sex w Mary, I feel like only the founder of a fertility cult would be so gratuitous (not intending offense to LDS folks who may read this, that is my outsider perspective, and as an American, I don't consider anyone else's theology to be my business, and I I'm from the abominable church anyway). Tradwife discourse interests me a lot as a stay at home parent in a straight-seeming marriage. I can't imagine tictocking my days, they are so boring I find myself writing essay-length YT comments so I can pretend I didn't waste my degree!

I knew working women with kids during the Fabulous Fifties! I’m an octogenarian.