Agreed great acting. However Sobels harsh conditioning of the squad probably kept them alive, many of the Easy company squad attested to this after the war, not everyone is a good leader, but he was excellent at preparing his troops for war... unfortunately he shot himself and ended up blinded for the last 17 years of his life. RIP sobel you made a difference. Salutes \
I love this scene. Winters could have taken the easy way out but he chose to risk a more severe punishment to basically tell Sobel, "Fuck you, I'm not playing your fucking game."
@@todo9633 A black mark for what? Any reasonable overseer would have laughed Sobel out of the room. Hell, this action and the mutiny convinced Sink to just get rid of Sobel.
There was a Staff Sergeant in my unit that did the same thing with a full Bird Colonel in Iraq. They were going to Article 15 him for taking a bottle of water out of the mess hall in Ramadi, he raised the stakes and opted for the Courts Martial. They backed off because they realized how stupid they'd look for punishing a soldier for taking a bottle of water.
ffjsb From the sounds of it they probably would have won, and then cut the bloated budget of the military in half due to public outcry. Or nobody would care and would go on to complain about abortion.
ffjsb Typical post from some elitist fuck who thinks he's better than everybody because he played in the sand with his buddies fighting "Terrorists" I don't even get what the fuck got you so pissed, was it the crack about the bloated budget, or are you some anti-woman "pro-life" nutjob? Either you guys have no sense of humor, or you just love to shove your "Combat Experience" in other people's faces. Also, When I play army, I do it proper, on a dedicated ArmA server on PC. Playstation is an insult to the concept of armed forces.
The Arctic Gamer Just like I thought, a wannabe. Skippy, when you put on the uniform, then you can have an opinion on this subject. When you make ignorant comments about the military, expect a Vet to correct you.
ffjsb I don't know, people who aren't part of something i find are often less biased. Also, Where the fuck was I wrong? you still haven't answered any questions. No disrespect to veterans, but all these internet "Veterans" seem to use their "Valor" to dodge a subject. You never corrected, you just insulted and based your whole argument on my lack of experience in a military. And who's to say I CAN join the military, who says I don't have experience? What if I was a 12 year old deaf kid with a heart disease? What if I was a retired lieutenant-colonel who served for 5 years in WW2? I swear to god if you mention military experience again I will fucking block you. Also, I have put on a uniform, you never specified the type.
And as an Officer he has the privilege to choose a fighter. Winters chose Bull Randleman. Legend says that, in cold summernights, you can still hear Soble shitting himself.
Barkley Coker Nah. Winters knew he did nothing wrong. He wasn’t going to just accept a punishment he didn’t deserve, esp. when in real life, this is actually the second time Sobel has tried to court-martial him. He was standing up for his principles. Using it as a manipulation tactic (“blackmail” is completely the wrong word for what you mean, btw) had nothing to do with it.
@@barkleycoker9121 Or, at the least, be able to detail Sobel's abuses or the like? Or however you want to describe the more extreme aspects of his conduct?
There's a little bit more to this situation than what the series shows, probably for the sake of pacing. According to Major Winters's memoirs, Colonel Strayer was to inspect the latrines at 1100. Like the series shows, Sobel issued an order to Winters to have the latrine cleaned and inspected by 1000 hours. However, Sobel he secretly bumped the inspection time to 0945. When Winters arrived, on time, Sobel finished the inspection, and departed past Winters without acknowledging the latter's presence. The poor enlisted man that carried out the cleaning was Pvt. Joachim Melo, latrine orderly who had an unkempt appearance. About 45 minutes later, First Sergeant Evans gave Lt. Winters a document demanding a reply under the charge for failure to inspect the latrine at the appointed time. The back and forth about the matter is what happened regarding the time changes. Including Sobel allegedly calling Winters and sending a runner, which was a lie. When given the choice, Winters stuck to his integrity and demanded a court-martial. Colonel Strayer and his staff found a legal loophole in their law books, and set the charge aside, no punishment. Just a few days later, Sobel went after Winters again, this time charging him for failure to instruct Pvt. Melo in his latrine cleaning, and for Pvt. Melo's unshaven appearance. That's when Winters had enough. He replied that he had no excuse for either charge. Colonel Strayer pulled Winters out of the company, making him mess officer while they sorted out this legal mess. That's when the Easy company NCOs decided to rebel. Winters tried to talk them out of it. It didn't work. The sergeants submitted their formal protests to Colonel Sink who, as shown in the series, blew up. He kicked out Sgt. Harris and demoted Pvt. Ranney. Harris was a member of the pathfinders who jumped into Normandy ahead of the others, but was killed-in-action in Holland. Ranney came back to Easy Company just before D-Day. Still, their complaints were heard, and Col. Sink decided, for the betterment of the company and the battalion, to have Capt. Sobel removed. Winters recounted that, after Sobel's removal, he only saw him once more-at the very end of the war in Mourmelon. Just like in that episode, Sobel tried to walk by the now Major Winters without acknowledging him. "Captain, we recognize and honor the rank!" thereby forcing Sobel to salute him.
Is 15 minutes enough to clean and inspect the latrine? To clean and inspect “by” 1000 means it is already done when the time is 1000. If Winters arrived “at” 1000 then he is really late.
still the col should have put a stop to this earlier. the signs were all there that Sobel was a bad combat officer. the fact the NCOs had to do what they did was a clear sign of his own incomptence.
A lot of Sobel's agressive character can be written off as simple harshness toward the men; they were about to take part in the largest invasion in history, not pick flowers, they needed to be ready for the hell of war. But this court martial was him having a pissing contest with his own subordinate, a sign of soup sandwich leadership.
Schwimmer is an awesome actor. Just look at his eyes while he talks. It radiates pure fear that Winters might choose court martial. And the shock on his face at the end. Great actor.
@@FreGZile Having never actually seen any of Schwimmer's prior works, I thought his performance here was award winning! Too bad people can't get past type casting.
@@SergeantExtreme opposite typecasting for me, never saw him in anything but BoB, and now I can't see him as anything but a petty, self righteous tyrant.
Schwimmer thought the punishment of Winters would be pro forma, just a mark showing what a in charge officer Schwimmer was. But when Winters decided to push the process forward, Schwimmer realized he screwed up and that there would be blowback. The gut punched look on Schwimmer face is priceless.
falcon3268 Sobel in reality thought he was doing the right thing by being such an asshole towards the company. It really did a lot of good in the long run. They hated him, but in interviews, Easy company members had a lot of respect for Sobel and his methods.
+Pyry Puustunen there's more to this than you think. By requesting this court-martial, he directly saved the lives of everyone in easy company. Because had Winters not done it, The nco's wouldn't have requested to not follow Sobel into battle. Meaning, Easy Company wouldn't have made back from the war alive.
Sobel is lucky he did. If Sobel had jumped into Normandy, the NCOs vowed to kill him, and their hatred of Sobel would prevent the truth from every being known.
Had a SSgt in the Marines like Sobel. Two faced fuck! Smile to your face while holding the knife he was going to stab you in the back with! He died a couple of years ago. Suffered a lot. I’m still here.....
I did and thank goodness I wasn't in the military because I probably would have gotten into a lot of trouble when I outright defied him and cussed him out. I was in complete f-you mode and didn't care if I got fired, though I knew he wouldn't fire me as he didn't have a replacement. I'm not a yeller and never in my life did I think I would ever cross the line of cussing out a superior but that dude pushed me, and everyone else, to no end. He went to jail for fraud, watching him ask me to keep track of his residuals for his family while he was away was one of the best days of my life. I didn't say it but all I wanted to say was "You love me now don't you bitch?"
The way Sobel loudly announces how Winters "failed" to do his duty while parading through the hallways vs the way Winters quietly tells Sobel he requests a court martial.
Yeah, but the orderly had stopped typing. There is always someone who hears it, sees it, escapes the mass killing. Even before the ubiquitous phones, there were ears everywhere.
Michael Akkerman You do realize that this is a military movie and that the jargon used within the military isn't always grammatically correct, right? I mean, they were training to go fight a war, not write college papers.
What the hell are you talking about? How else would I know that he misspelled court martial because Nixon is the one who points it out? I'm saying, it's tiny idiosyncrasies like that in writing which define a character. He's not as intelligent as he thinks he is.
***** Wow, you and Mr. Adam Westfall ... Michael Akkerman's comment just completely whizzed over your heads... He was complimenting the excellent writing in the show because, just like in the real military, charlatans like Sobel try to act intelligently in front of others but those little details show how truly unintelligent they are. And in Winters and Sobel's case, they did in fact train to write "college papers" before they were commissioned in the Army. I was Active Duty for over 9 years and this type of bull-headed leadership was not so uncommon. Their make-pretend articulations led to people saying dumb shit like "re-orientate", "irregardless", or using "UCMJ" as a fucking verb. Mr Akkerman was highlighting how well this show was written.
Michael Akkerman My understanding was that IRL, the word "endorsement" was misspelled "indorsement" by First Sergeant Evans. And Evans continued to spell it that way!
+Adam Westfall Writing in the military is heavily scrutinized by senior personnel. I can't tell you how many times I've had an NCO throw something back in my face because of grammatical errors.
@@wardogies Oh absolutely. Sobel would look like an ass Court Martialing Winters with a case like that.. Winters never received the order. Sobel says he phone. But house had no phone which Sobel should have known. Or be told by whoever was told to call. The sent runner would have informed Sobel of no contact. Winters was right calling Sobel's bluff.
@@wardogies You can see this in the shifty way he states "Or you could request a trial by court martial" His eyes are basically saying "Don't choose that, Don't choose that" Winters says "I request trial by court martial" Sobel's eyes: Damn!
People get this all wrong sobel is pissed because winters was a better officer and threatened sobels command and sobel did this to assert himself as the leader but did it in the worst way possible
To be fair, it's been shown several times during the episodes that Sobel doesn't return Winters salutes. There was simply no sense in waiting for something Winters would never get.
As mentioned elsewhere, the subtle scene building is top notch. You have Sgt. Simon Pegg approach, looking very formal and solemn while the other soldiers relax playing basketball while the two lieutenants watch on, and then Winters' "Oh for crying out loud", while Nixon's "he misspelled court-martial" (I bet he wrote "court marshal"!) tells the viewer exactly what the stakes are while sounding completely natural, all without having to show the viewer the actual contents of the letter.
Not enough credit goes to Schwimmer for taking this role. He reminds me of Larry Linville who played Frank Burns in the MASH series. All the attention went to Alan Alda but Linville was equally as good.
I love how subtle Winter's anger is in this scene. He refers to him as Captain instead of sir while going up the stairs then "borrows" his pen while taking it off Sobel. At least enlisted and NCO's square off with fists, Officers square off with words and political maneuvering.
@@Cam-e4t when addressing an officer, you always call them Sir or Ma'am per regulation. While it's not exactly incorrect to call them by their rank, it's often viewed as a sign of disrespect or anger. You usually only call them by their rank when referring in the 3rd person. As for Enlisted, you address them by their rank.
falcon3268 Indeed, and it chapped his ass to no end that he couldn't intimidate him either. Its interesting when you learn that during actor boot camp, Schwimmer was deliberately billeted apart from the other actors and given special privileges. Also, I've heard that he was injured during training and gave the name Herbert Sobel at the ER in England to avoid an insurance claim against the producrtion.
Translated: "I changed the orders" "No-one told me sir [Did you really?]" "I telephoned" "I am quartered with a family that has no telephone [No you didn't]" "And sent a runner" "No runner found me captain [No you really didn't]"
Steve Kaczynski I read winters autobiography and apparently sobel knew he was quartered with a family with no telephone so I’m quoting directly this was bullshit
The dumb part is this was condensed from what actually happened. Sobel court martialed Winters, Sink set the charges aside, so Sobel court martialed Winters a second time. The second one triggered the mutiny.
Rohan Chaturvedi I had a physician/boss like that in a medical facility. “I followed standard office procedure.” “No, you didn’t. Standard office procedure has changed.” (Changed at that very moment. No prior notice. Who’s irresponsible here?) After I departed that job (not a result of this one incident), ten new staffers came and went over the course of 15 weeks.
Noticed how Sobel marched Winters up through the entire battalion's building while criticizing him out loud for all to hear. Winters btw just got done outsmarting Sobel in an exercise. Winters found that old man and Sobel cut up a fence. So it was a classic case of demonizing Winters in front of command for trump up charges.
Ever notice how this show was filled with British actors playing very small parts, and that most of those people are now huge stars? Simon Pegg. Tom hardy. Micheal Fassbener. Jamie Bamber. Apparently James McAvoy was in there somewhere.... Seriously. If you are British and you want to be a successful actor, get a tiny part with about four lines playing a random American soldier. Ten years later, you'll be mega famous!
This reminds me of a lieutenent on my company back here in Brasil. I'm a private in the military police and this lieutenent used to create issues out of the thin air to punish his subordinates just to show who was the boss. Really unprofessional person that, fortunatelly, is going to retire soon..
The Captain was indeed a great trainer of men.....however his ability to lead is what I have experienced a few times when I was in the Marine Corps. We had some GREAT platoon commanders and company commanders...and then we had some on the total power trip. It's an amazing thing to see.....leadership in action.
"The Captain was indeed a great trainer of men...." There is no evidence to lay a causal link between Sobel's training and the success of E-company. One could equally assert that E-company became successful DESPITE Sobels training. The survivors of E company just heard how Sobel ended up after the war and decided not to kick the man when he was down on by putting a positive spin on his ability to "train". But really, there's no evidence that it made them better soldiers.
@@The1980Philip I always thought they meant his brutal treatment made them better equipped to face the hardships and horror of battle. Winters made them better soldiers.
I could sit and watch every part of 'Band of Brothers..over and over again...... A great movie.... That's Simon Pegg!! Of 'Shaun of the dead' fame.. and, of course, Scottie on the new ST.
So awesome seeing Winters calling Sobel on his bluff. Sobel probably thought that there is no way he won't just take the punishment and now I can put him in his place. Sobel was well aware that he wasn't half the soldier that Winters was and had to justify why he was the ranking officer.
Joe McKim According to the book "Beyond Band of Brothers" Sobel had a serious inferiority complex. He always wanted to be recognized as the best. And that lead him to be excessively strict often times even making up infractions to punish those that displeased him. However even Richard Winters admitted that it was because of Sobel's constant pushing that Easy Company was considered one of the best companies in 101st Airbourne.
I did a similar thing with my division equivalent (of Sobel) and over his lack of knowledge regarding my batteries MTOE equipment listing he wanted me to sign a sizable 'check' for the delta, I had gone earlier to our higher command for the facts, was on solid ground but Capt Kramer did not want to hear it, so I did the request the court martial and felt ready for the outcome, end result was they dropped the charges it sure feels good when you win the issue.
The real ridiculous thing in this scene is that Winters was ordered to inspect latrines in the first place. That's a job for a corporal, not the company's executive officer.
Nah, the corporal would be in charge of the detail cleaning them. Then a senior NCO would walk through to catch any deficiencies some time before the officer inspects them.
@@TheStapleGunKid You can doubt it as much as you like, but at the end of the day it's the officers who are accountable for the facilities, equipment, and soldiers under their charge.
@@ryjtse Yeah but it's the NCO's who deal with small matters like that. I was in the military for a long time (though not the army) and I never heard of an officer getting a task that low-down.
@@TheStapleGunKid Winters isn't cleaning them, he's conducting an inspection to ensure they're up to standard. Same as doing a barracks walk through or an equipment layout. It's a relatively minor thing but it also won't take much of his time to complete. Which branch were you in? I'm always interested in hearing people's experiences.
Is it me, or was anyone else expecting a typewriter to go _ding_ in the background, followed by the sound of a carriage return-zip after Winters announced his demand for a courts-martial?
You’d be surprised at how many officers are STILL like this one. Most are fresh out of OCS slick sleeved trying to tell Platoon Sgts with 30 years and multiple combat tours what to do. They never last long. The men who stick around to test the tides of time are the few good ones. 4th Infantry Division 1-12th Infantry “Red Warriors”
Bishop White Definitely true, I have no doubt they’re still around I was in A co. and Scout platoon 1-12, way back in 1985-86. Fort Cartoon was a nice part of the world to be stationed. 👍👍🇺🇸
I just noticed that under exertion walking up the stairs, Damian Lewis the Excellent Actor, reverts to his English pronunciation and intonation. 🙂. Also Soble says 'Irregardless', 😆 This incident is one of my favorite snippets! It also shows Sobel's motivations were wrong, he was not a perfectionist, it was something else.
Next to Ross from “Friends”, Sobel is David Schwimmer’s second most iconic character. That you can with 100% certainty refer to both Ross Geller from “Friends” and Herbert Sobel from HBO’s “Band Of Brothers” as “iconic” speaks volumes as to how incredibly talented David Schwimmer is as an actor.
WWII US army was based on efficiency models. If a CO slowed the train he was relieved within days or weeks, depending of circumstances. Eisenhower had made it plain that officers were there for the men and not the other way around. Among his first decisions, Marshall sacked two hundred generals and colonels to retirement when he took command Sept 1st 1939.
+Mike Cimerian How true. It is the NCO who runs and makes the company GO. A little top punishment (a good thumping) will go a long way instead of an article 15 NJP.
"NCO discipline" got things taken of quickly. Without any paperwork required. My Dad had a saying I still love... "Don't let the bullshit hit the brass." Translation....Handle problems at squad or platoon level. Keep the officer's OUT of it. And everyone is happy.
There was also forgiveness. Many officers who were relieved for cause got a second chance and many performed admirably. Today-- we keep officers in despite mediocrity because they're "good Americans" and punish privates more for losing their rifle.
@@vtbmwbiker Tom Ricks has given a great lecture on this subject. Relief wasn't a career ending event. Why our Generals Were More Successful in World War II ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-OehvY94N-WA.html
The men respected Winters more because he was a natural born leader. Sobel was a decent training officer but sucked as a combat leader i.e. leading your men into an ambush and getting lost, ending up at the fence instead of where he should of been due to inability to read a map.
The soldiers respected Sobel as long as he was able to "walk the walk" He run up that mountain with them, kept his equipment spotless and generally did not expect them to do things he has not also done. He was a prick but he was right. When they got to England and started doing tactical exercises, Sobel was shown not have serious deficiencies as a combat leader. He could work around it by delegating to competent subordinates like Winters or the NCOs but instead he threw a hissy and tried to sabotage Winters. Now he was a prick and he was wrong. The soldiers could not respect that.
The end of Sobel's life was incredibly tragic. Attempted suicide in 1970 by shooting himself in the temple, but all he did was server the tendons connected to his eyes and blind himself. Fifteen years later he died of malnutrition in an assisted living facility. No service held.
He died in a VA CLC, which is kind of like a nursing home and Hospice. I am a retired soldier and a volunteer at my local VA Hospital. I spend time with our hospitalized veterans in the CLC.
Schwimmwer does such a great job! Going from pompous & 'hard' to smug, then shocked , finally haunted & anxiety ridden. He(Sobel?) even has the gall to appeal to Winters to "be a Man' after all that. Total Heel! And It's like at the end- he realizes his little game is going to be exposed.
@@Nantana2211 Agreed! Most actors say they "prefer' to be the villain, but they prefer complex villains. Sobel is more of a martinet than villain, so probably very enjoyable to play him.
He could have thrown out the charge, but it didn't, and because of that, he got reassigned, which, to the men, meant he got fired. But he screwed over all his officers. Whenever you screw over somebody, remember, there is gonna come a day when they find a way to get you back.
Irregardless means the same as regardless, but the negative prefix ir- merely duplicates the suffix -less, and is unnecessary. The word is not slang and dates back to the 19th century. It is from a blend of irrespective and regardless. And it is regarded as incorrect in standard English today.
According to English dictionaries such as the Merriam-Webster and the Oxford dictionary, it is simply nonstandard or informal. Also, for Jekyl, slang words are real words, they are just not of a formal level. Learn your grammar.
Peggs an actor!...pretty good one at that!..excellent yank accent. there's a bunch of actors here that are British...IMHO all did an excellent job portraying yanks...My dad, a former 187th Airborne Vet was more then pleased with they're accurate portrayal. I hope they're success in future endeavors.
The decision made by Lt Winters to accept Courts Martial exposes Capt Sobel’s tyranny/poor leadership decisions. Sobel realizes this consequence and was paralyzed with fear as to “what he will do next”. This decision exposes his flawed actions to his superiors and thus we see what transpires later - loss of command due to lack of confidence and transfer to the rear as a training officer for the replacements
The beginning of the scene is kinda funny to me like Winters and Nixon being mom and dad watching the kids play, they give off that vibe a lot through the series (also acting as older bros) and I think it’s great
Pegg was still relatively unknown when they filmed this, he'd just done the sketch comedy Big Train and was in the middle of doing his own sitcom Spaced so this was no doubt a pay cheque between jobs.
Soebel tried this twice with Winters. This is the first time, Colonel Strayer dismissed the charges out of hand, the 2nd time Winters got transferred to Battalion Headquarters as mess officer and that is when the NCOs resigned en masse. By that time Sink had enough of Soebel.
The reality was Sobel was threatened by Winters, and Winters saw he was too incompetent to lead men into combat, the company liked Winters because he voiced their concerns, Sobel tried to get Winters court martialed twice, both on fake charges which Sink threw out, but the final straw was the mutiny, Several men were demoted but Sink realised there was an issue with Sobel and had him transferred to HQ company who he jumped with in Normandy
I asked for a court martial once. You should have seen the look on the officer and the CSM face, it was outstanding. Cut a long story short I couldn’t be in two places at once which is why I asked for it. The bullshit of the guards regiments. Case was dropped and I was smiling all the way back to the accommodation block. Who said a Guardsmen couldn’t take on the elite and win. Lol
If this case was brought before me as a ranking Judge of the Courts, I would've sentenced Capt. Sobel to jail for tbe remainder of the war for wasting everybody's time.
Sobel was jealous and butthurt that winters beat him in the exercise, so like a petty little pissant he “punishes him” Sobel LOVED LOVED LOVED punishing...Absolutely loved it
Not even his children attended. He was so mean to them, they hated him. After a failed suicide attempt in the 1960's, he was blind. (All he did was shoot out his eyes. Don't put the pistol to your temple!) After that, he was put in a nursing home, where he died of malnutrition in 1987. He must have been a prick there too, for them to let him starve to death. That takes a couple month's or more! I served in the 80's, & I had officer's & senior nco's like Sobel. Luckily, I also had some of both like Winter's, etc.
Reminds me when I was as a Second Class Petty Officer I threatened to take my Chief to Captains Mast (NJP) if my request wasn't handled to my satisfaction. Needless to say problem was resolved within the hour to my satisfaction hehe
When I was in the Air Force, I once had to tell a full bird colonel to get out of the F 15 he was preparing to fly because the radio was working intermittently. I red X-ed the log book while he was still in the jet, running. He was not happy at all. Later, (days) he came back. They had me kicking the chocks on his jet, while starting up, he goosed the throttle causing a large backfire from the jet. I came off the ground an my head hit the wing, it was then I looked around and all the squadrons chiefs and such were standing and watching. He got me back for throwing him out of his jet!
