Yea. And a very big reason why is when it is good no one complains. You can't complain you are losing to taxes cause it means you were doing something unfair.
Another problem with Hoogak was that being in green they had access to a lot of artifact and enchantment hate, whick usually are the best graveyard hates. My friend always remember one game at our LGS were he opened the game with not one but two Leyline of the Void and on the turn 0 the opponent played Force of Vigor getting rid of both. BRUTAL.
I love how you brought up the Stitcher's Supplier into Satyr Wayfinder line and that was like the most fair thing you can do with Hogaak Absolutely busted
Lol, you know what also came with Hogaak? Force of Vigor. Who cares about rest in peace, when you can just destroy two of them for no mana at instant speed
On the subject of Hogaak, I'll always maintain that it would've been fine with one small change: removing the ability to cast it from your graveyard. The decks were so awful to play against because you didn't even need to have Hogaak in your hand! You just mill over enough cards and you'll get her. That's on top of the obvious fact it'd also make the deck more vulnerable to removal. That being said, it still wouldn't be fun to play against so I'm glad it's gone either way.
Dread return isn’t even that scary in dredge, it’s just a win more card there. The real problem now is that any deck that can flip its library into its graveyard can go flip 3 narcomoebas and dread return - flashback dread return - thassa’s oracle for the win. And that takes a grand total of 0 mana
Hard disagree, that card was only banned for timing issues in tournaments. Was not a huge meta representation, didn't have huge win percentages at all, and was hard to pick up and learn. The only issue people had is that it took a long time for the matches to play out. It also really only was present during 1 freaking pro tour. And then it got banned. Second Sunrise should be unbanned because banning cards for timing purposes is ludicrous in nature, and doesn't represent the idea that people like to play with complex decks and fun cards, and banning them because they either "don't feel good" or "are boring" shouldn't be a thing.
@@myaramiu you are right, but you cannot negate that dragging a tournament for hours brings it's own problems far greater than a banned card. Yes, timing issues should not be a reason to ban a card, but if that card makes a GP last until Thursday maybe it's a problem big enough for a ban
@@ravytheturtle7895 Yeah you guys are way overblowing the time it took for those cards. I played in those GPs and events. It maybe added an extra hour and a half to them. Stop over exaggerating the card and the deck lol. I understand the issue with having rounds go a bit longer than usual, but the card shouldn't be on the banlist.
@@myaramiu Then why don't we just unban Shahrazad in Legacy or Commander? I think it's a funny card, but WOTC thinks it's a time waster. Also, it's not an exaggeration. 1-1.5 hours is a massive understatement. There were always players that went to time before Second Sunrise, so tournaments already felt long, but then throw in a chunk of inexperienced Eggs players & 2 hours minimum was common. Then it's exacerbated by people locally, checking out tourney results & net-decking, so you have LGS hours dragging on, with slow & inexperienced Eggs decks for FNM & other events. The other problem was if they won game 1, they could effectively drag a turn on forever just to get to time. So annoying.
I think the reason white sucks is because the cards the printed early on for white were super abusable, over the top, and or mean (shazarahad, armagedon, limited resources, balance). And as a result, they have been struggling to give white a competitive identity ever since that didn't actively cause other players to quit
Have a sigil of the empty throne, 3-5 enchantments, anointed procession (2 pref), and Archon son of grace. Bonus: some ajani’s welcome and soul wardens. That would be the beauty with second sunrise. I used to use Empty the vaults with sigil and life gain years ago
I'm really curious what cards would be reanimated with Dread Return. my immediate thought is that it would be a 0 cost Goryo's Vengeance for something like Grishoalbrand, but the lack of non combo creatures in that deck isn't ideal. I imagine Griselbrand would be devastating in dredge so that'd be pretty fun. Honestly i don't know much about the current post Horizons Modern, I haven't played the format since 2018 and haven't been following it since way earlier
As a legacy player, dread return was used to get a super lord giving all creatures +2 and abilities, could you imagine a 5/5 lifelink prized amalgam? What about 4 of them?
Magic players pre-Gaak summer: "Lol dies to removal who cares". Honestly at this point whenever I hear "Dies to removal" my eyes glaze over. The people who say that shit have no business evaluating magic cards. Also insert something to do with Sin Prodder here. Gotta keep the chain going.
I remember at the beginning of Hogaak Summer going to an FNM and getting waxxed by the Gaak in match 1. After the even finished i saw the Hogaak player taking on the resident Dredge player just for fun. Hogaak absolutely annihilated them, with the dredge player sitting there saying "wow this is some broken bullshit"... the DREDGE player saying that...
for dread return, its used in dredgless dredge too reanimate (at the time of its ban) lab man, and nowadays thassas oracle, you mill your deck, get 3 narcomeoba, then sac em get back thoracle
At the main event of GP: Chicago 2012 (a few months before Second Sunrise was banned), I was the judge at a match that went to extra turns when time in the round had been called and the Eggs player was in the middle of combo-ing off. Slowly. I'm glad I watched them like a hawk because I caught him drawing one too many cards from Elsewhere Flask triggers and, at the time, the corresponding penalty was a Game Loss. I was able mercifully end what would have otherwise been another 15-20 minutes of suffering, and that was my highlight of that event :D
@@NikachuMTG I'm pretty sure every single end-of-round match I watched at GP: Omaha 2015 that went to time was a Jeskai Ascendancy deck (pre-ban for Treasure Cruise). I feel your pain lol
Agreed on the list, in short the biggest reason Dread Return was banned was it was in modern with Bridge from Below, Narcomeba, Bloodghast and you go cool sack 3 dudes put Grislebrand on the battlefield and obliterate your life. And if it was in Modern right now you could easily kill people turn 3 and 4. With the mixture of Creeping chill auto putting opponent to 8 life if not lower and Bloodghast as a 4 of and they would have haste because opponent is at 8. I don't think it would be unbeatable but it would definitely create a heavier control vs Dredge meta game because force of negation and rest in peace would be able to compete. It would be interesting to test tbh
The big problem with the Second Sunrise deck was that it didn't accually go infinite in the sense that you couldn't present a consistant repeatable loop, but you had to play through the whole deck multible times until you foound your 1 copy of Pyrite Spellbomb each time. There was some 1 in 1000-ish chance that you'd fail to kill your opponent ones you went off,
Colorless are gonna always get banned often cause on higher mana cost which is usually way to control power level they have Tron for easy high mana and Tron will of course never be bannable on it's own. On low colorless cards though you have crazy loops on simple cards cause they're generally artifacts and there's a lot of interactions in colorless on low end.
Dread Return is actually an easy ban, it's tough to actually interact with graveyards g1, and this card it can continue the chain in sooo many ways. Greetings from Chile.
IIRC I used to play dredge in extended and you would just go off with bridge + nacomeaba and bloodghast and you would just dread return into a flamekin zealot give everything haste and kill OPP turn 2 ez pz. ahh sweet memories (I remeber playing at a PTQ against a guy that didn't know what dredge was, he was like "woooow shit, what what's happening???"
Bridge from Below was fine until sacrifice outlets got better. When Bridgevine's best outlet was Greater Gargadon it played fair because Gargadon provides no immediate value (it takes time to come off suspend). In Modern Horizons Carrion Feeder became legal - turning sacrifices into immediate damage and Altar of Dementia let Bridge from Below turn into a turn 2 win.
Unlikely to be played but I feel like Dread Return is partially banned so no one can stall games with 4 Horsemen. Modern doesnt have any 1 card untap combos like Basalt Monolith but there are enough Fatestichers that you could technically play it and everything else for the deck is modern legal
I like how even if you just play tested hogaak in dredge it’s like really obviously broken. Dredge was one of the best decks in the metagame prior to modern horizons and giving the deck a free 8/8 trampler just didn’t seem like a good idea to begin with, and it just incidentally was even more broken than we thought in spoiler season. I have no idea how this card managed to get printed in anything other than a commander product.
I also see a broken card as two abilities that don’t work together or very little synergy in the game What you classify as broken so far I would call OP/overpowered
Man, grandpa Nikachu plays all the best decks! Tier 1 only for Grandpa Nikachu....what a legend! Like he taught us a long time ago, if you let your opponent play 3-4 lands....shit, you're playing a tier 2 deck LOL
If I had a nickel for every Time Spiral block free graveyard spell on the black banned list, I'd have two nickels, which isn't a lot but it's weird that it happened twice.
The amount of mogg fanatics I had to sacrifice to kill bridges or lavamancers I had kill themselves in extended gives me flashbacks. Bridge has always been and always will be a nightmare. Getting free 2/2 for combining off is never healthy
Second Sunrise deserves its spot. Take everything you hate about KCI, Paradoxical Outcome, and Cheerios then remember that this worked in the same shells without drawing any of those cards (though they certainly made it efficient!). The only reason it's theoretically safe in Modern is that Force of Negation & Vigor exist (neither of which is Shatterstorm) and there aren't nearly as many 0-1 CMC eggs to use so it's theoretically slow enough to be inconsistent (and by that I mean they have to go off turn 4 most of the time).
dread return is insanely broken, i used to run a deck that didn't even abuse it that badly but it was still just broken as hell, it was an abzan reanimator, used to run greenseeker to dump fatties while fixing mana then if i could plop dread return into my yard turn 3 i'd get akroma angel of fury and swing for 6 usually, while that doesn't seem that insane most opps would scoop on the spot like ok...
Brigde from Below is just not a fun card to play against. Constantly having to check opp' graveyard and generating advantage on a zone out of sight. Anyone playing Penny Dreadful has seen that stupid Hermit Druid/Dread Return deck and with Oops all Spells only getting bans in Pioneer, it would be veery good in modern.
Dread Return is one of the worst cards in Legacy Dredge, it usually only sees sideboard play since the main deck plan is so good, especially game 1. It might get boarded in alongside Elesh Norn against decks that go wide and don't run white for Karakas, mostly elves, or it might get boarded in alongside ashen rider for show and tell matchups where putting in ashen rider with show and tell makes you not lose immediately (hopefully). In Modern Dredge though, it might be a completely different beast. The real danger of Dread Return is that its the way Oops All Spells gets Thassa's Oracle out of the graveyard after milling themselves out in Legacy. Dread Return might be ok for Modern but not in a world where Thassa's Oracle is legal.
One deck that I saw using dread return is legacy oops just sac 3 narcomoebas and get that thassas oracle, now you don`t even need creeping chill and vengevines to win the game. But I do disagree on bridge, while it isn`t a balanced card that makes any sense, it doesn`t seem to be too powerful, also vengevine decks could use some help right now.
Dread Return is much more broken than Hogaak IMO. The creature requirements are kind of similar, and the creatures you can get (e.g. Elesh Norn, Iona, etc) are obviously much stronger and more immediately game-ending than an 8/8
I like the shoutout to PleasantKenobi. Cause he’s right. Yeah, cards being busted is not a good thing, but the fact that there’s no ban-worthy white cards says a lot.
Sifka got SS banned back in RTR so this has been gone for a long time. Lol How do you win? Oh I sit here for 20 or 30 minutes trying to get Grapeshot on?
I think Second Sunrise is debateable. If people played Eggs faster, there would be no problem. It's a really solid play extender as well as recovery too, and white wouldn't be broken with it.
