Basal Anchor Shock Load w/ 100 lb - Holey Moley!

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This is a demonstration to show how much force is generated in a short fall on a basal anchor, when your rope is caught on a small branch above the main union. This really surprised me. Hopefully this gives you guys something to think about when setting up basal anchors.
"We are all apprentices in a craft where no one ever becomes a master." - Ernest Hemingway
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Опубликовано:

29 апр 2023

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Комментарии : 89

@timgrant1796 Год назад

Well done. The shock loads involved were accurately described for a variety of ropes and fall factors by Attaway & Weber back in 2002. I wish someone had picked up on their work, but it seemed to disappear after Attaway passed away. It's the short falls that crush, because all rope is relatively stiff over the first ten feet or so and arborists generally climb on thick static kernmantle. It's not the fall that hurts, it's the sudden stop at the end. Thanks.

@isaacmartinez7435 Год назад

This is why I love your channel. Along with the other greats out there. You articulate concepts really well. I'm here about to be 37 and I started climbing only about 5 years ago. I've never used a base anchor since I haven't come across a tree where I needed it. This really gives me something to think about when I come across this situation. You guys are so valuable to us new climbers. I appreciate the service you provide to the industry. I pray for you safety brother.

@gabriellamm2776 10 месяцев назад

Don’t forget that with a basal anchor your puttin 2x the weight in a Union than drt

@filipbelak6594 Год назад

Thank you for that test. It really helps to put things into perspective, as a new climber I often think the exact same thing "if the twig breaks the union is gonna catch me". I will be more cautious after this. Also, nice of you to provide numbers in metric system.

@spelunkerd Год назад

One of the things we did in mountain climbing school was to drop a couple of tires from an abandoned railroad tressle, and try to hold the fall with gloved hands on the rope around our waist. It was an unpleasant surprise how much force is involved. In climbing we sometimes top rope, where the rope is tied at the bottom and routed all the way to the top and then back down to the climber. That was a much easier shock load to manage because the rope was longer, stretch happens all along the rope, and there is almost no slack. Also there is some friction at the top. Your observation of 2X fall is spot on, it's the same risk that a lead climber who moves above his last protection accepts. I have similar scars from falls through the years. One other thing that is done is to use slings that partially tear away under intense force to help cushion and smooth out that abrupt shock load. Mountain climbing rope and slings that have taken a serious fall are immediately retired.

@user-gq2vn1xj2r Год назад

Thank you. Your dedication to safety for all of us means a lot.

@total22cal Год назад

It's not so much that I didn't understand the concept of "I would fall twice that distance if it breaks" - I knew that and understood that fully - but what I didn't realise is how much force and degree of injury we are talking about in those situations. Even when we calculate exactly on paper how much force we would experience by number, I still don't think I would understand how much it will hurt. That is ofcourse untill I feel the pain my self and learn it the hard way, or I see someone I trust knowing what they are talking about saying "this is the scar, and it hurt like hell" The following video made was very much needed and it was great in terms of telling how much it hurt, rather more than telling the numbers. Great video. Thank you.

@havespurswillclimb Год назад

Enjoyed the video. Excellent demonstration on that particular basil anchor setup. Often when setting rope from the ground you wind up hanging over a small weak branch above actual target union. So, this demo should make all aware of the danger in trusting the weak rope placement....even though a good crotch is just below the weak branch. Appreciate you taking the time to set this demo up. Thanks.

@CarmenDeMatteo Год назад

Thanks for all of your information and hard work giving back to the industry .

@jefferyturner1920 Год назад

Most videos show everything going smoothly but I really like videos like this that educate us on things that could go wrong. Excellent video. Thank you.

@mattwood9981 Год назад

Great example Patrick, thanks for putting that together.

@seancoyle6463 Год назад

I still climb mostly double rope but the concept still applies. I’ve shared this and your first post about it with the guys at work. Thanks man

@dankotos61 Год назад

Good job I got you on the first video. I also have a pair of binoculars I used to inspect my branches sometimes

@samuelluria4744 Год назад

Smart man!

@nate2838 Год назад

Another element to keep in mind is what type of rope you are using. Static line doesn't stretch as much as 16 strand standard climbing line, therefore it doesn't reduce the impact as much. So if your used to climbing on 16 strand, keep that difference in mind when you switch to static line for better efficiency / less effort when going up the rope. I mention this because I was compaing a few experiences with short falls i've had, and was wondering why this was way more violent than I experienced. And the amount of rope in the system makes a difference. More rope = more stretch, which reduces the impact some. Great topic and reminder.

@bobray2583 Год назад

Imagine how much force it generates when you shock load a rig... yeesh. Great video man. Ty

@johnhass1084 Год назад

Wow, great presentation

@TreeMuggs_PatrickM Год назад

Appreciate it - Patrick

@donb8447 Год назад

I love the videos...and received my copy of "The Fundamentals of Tree work" yesterday! I literally can't put it down!! Thank you for all you do!

@samuelscorso4820 Год назад

Great illustration of the forces involved. Damn smooth work at the end too, despite the accident preceding.

@donmckenzie4329 Год назад

Thank you for this vid. I shared this video with the guys I work with. Really good for demonstrating why 10% is a general rule of thumb for negative rigging as well as basil anchors.

@proxy7863 Год назад

Great video Pat, food for thought for everyone. Shows why ropes have to be so strong.

@justinrutan1795 Год назад

Great heads up, I knew it would be bad but didn’t realize how bad, thanks for sharing.

@aerialrescuesolutions3277 Год назад

Excellent video. Thank you.

@jamesblack687 Год назад

Wow! I don’t even think twice about it if I can’t break it from the ground, I just claimed up with no worries. Not now, I’ll simply reset my rope, pain sucks. Thank you 🙏

@ianbarnett6027 Год назад

Excellent video. Every climber should watch this. I did not realize this very real potential hazard. Thank you.

@br-dj2ti Год назад

It makes a hundred percent sense thank you so much for this video Patrick definitely big help

@calebbell952 Год назад

Great video! Never thought of this happening to this extent.

@FunDadAdventures Год назад

Wow, I never imagined. Thanks man!

@johndurant8687 Год назад

Good stuff here Patrick! Thanks alot Brother!

@WaynePolcin Год назад

Bogos vivi tada! Well done, Patrick!

@gnarmarmilla Год назад

Thanks, brother. Much appreciated

@In-The-Trees Год назад

Wow, great video and great points! I can honestly say it was just from the union to the twig and am guilty of just saying "eh, good enough" and climbing on it. That 880 lb shock load blew my mind. Thanks for sharing!

@BigBlackTruckDave Год назад

Ouch. Thanks for the warning.

@brenthauxwell8435 Год назад

Thanks providing an answer to a concern. I’ve had multiple times in the tree.

@waynecostanza2280 Год назад

Just awesome.

@metaspencer Год назад

I was hoping we'd see that hemp climbing line from 1812 again :) Joking aside, great to see you get into the shock loading force. Super interesting

@plant.more.trees. 11 месяцев назад

Regarding little twigs,sometimes we double load it and if it doesn’t brake, we feel it will hold us, but in reality sometimes we weaken them enough to snap the twig half way through the climb. I always hate urban redwoods where you can’t see the crouch or branches you are going over…. Thanks for the video!

@joshpomponio2993 Год назад

That is a great topic an when you do test on your own like that it’s brutally honest it’s a big difference being tied in srt at top of tree than at base just in rope stretch not even in redirect drt use it every chance I get less travel each step up but way less dynamic on rope stretch thanks brother 👊

@mrpittdec28 Год назад

Thanks. Safety #1

@cotontop3 Год назад

I did that very thing about 2 years ago- rope went over a small sucker, I didn't think much about it. I took about a step up the rope from the ground and the sucker let go. I wasn't more than a foot off the ground and ended up flat on my back and thought I had broke my wrist. In my mind at the time, I was like, if the rope drops in the crotch, no biggie, its just right above it but as I figured out the hard way, that was not the case.

@kodylloyd5495 Год назад

Double plus stretch of rope plus friction device. WOW Patrick! Be cautious on a regular. Glad you are ok 👍

@LEPPER500 Год назад

Jesus H .. thank you for the video and keeping climbers safe. This content is life saving. Thank you

@dgoodman1484 Год назад

Good video. This doesn’t negate your message at all but as any rock climber will tell you the more rope you have out, the less the force because of rope elongation. Even static rope has some but why I also occasionally use dynamic rope for certain situations where a higher fall factor is a possibility. We get away with using static (ish) ropes because basically we are top roped in and shouldn’t see a fall factor greater than 1 and rarely even that but as we know, we definitely can under the right circumstances and having little rope in the system and static rope at that, makes it especially bad. 👍🏼👍🏼

@TreeMuggs_PatrickM Год назад

Yes for sure. This wasn't a very practical example, there was only a tiny amount of rope in the system. Makes you think though

@dgoodman1484 Год назад

It was a great example 👍🏼

@nate2838 Год назад

@@TreeMuggs_PatrickM And that is exactly what the goal of your video, get people thinking and paying attention. Well done :)

@danmaynard856 Год назад

All canopy vs basal anchor discussions I've seen are focused on the static anchor point load from the 2:1 effect but ignore the decrease in shock from the extra rope length. Would be really interesting to see exactly the same balls drop onto a canopy anchor, and a basal anchor with 40 feet of rope in the system. Stick my neck out but the same fall could give 400lbs on a canopy anchor and 300lbs on basal anchor - ie the basal anchor is lower load and safer.

@alotl1kevegas860 Год назад

Holy crap, I was thinking maybe a x3 factor in force. I was not expecting that much, from such a short fall!

@mvblitzyo Год назад

Beautiful example and excellent explanation of what could and does happen , when we as climbers. make a simple mistake when we miscalculate where we are tied in ..

@robbob_the_climber Год назад

👍well done 👍👍👍😎😎😎

@zachsites906 Год назад

I can’t think of a better way to Illustrate the physics behind shock loads. For anyone who doesn’t believe how these loads are exponentially multiplied, this video contains the proof.

@michaelguerin56 Год назад

Good video. I am a carpenter but have done some tree work with a friend who is a (now retired) arborist. It is highly tempting to accept a poor line position (as demonstrated in this video) instead of throwing again or simply starting lower and working your way up the tree. Our heaviest work involved the felling of nuisance pinus radiata (Monterey pine) trees that had been planted decades before, at the top of a steep slope, above a street of houses. If the Big Shot could not get the rope into a good i.e., safe location, one of us would put on the spikes and climb the tree, using double lanyards for safety; then set the pull and safety ropes. This was all DDRT climbing and the pull rope would be run direct or via a pulley block to his Landcruiser. The safety rope would be run through a bollard, off an adjacent tree. All the trees came down safely, exactly as planned. The property owner decided to buck the logs himself, without any safety ropes to hold the wood on the slope. He put a piece of pine through the ranchslider on his house whilst bucking the first log and broke his leg!

@TreeMuggs_PatrickM Год назад

Crazy! Thanks for sharing

@samuelluria4744 Год назад

Tree work IS Carpentry.....it's just the earliest phase of Carpentry.....🤣🤣

@michaelguerin56 Год назад

@@samuelluria4744 True. A bodger works with green wood, using saws, chisels, rasps, a pole lathe and some gouges. The traditional British pub skittles are made from green wood by bodgers, using a pole lathe and gouges. You can get a licence in Britain to work a stretch of woodland and even build a temporary house. Coppicing provides a steady supply of timber. Offcuts can be turned into charcoal for commercial sale or simply burned in the house stove. Traditional laths for restoration of plaster walls and ceilings in grand houses are also created by hand. I have seen a BBC?/ITV? commissioned video where the laths were being split under a timber-framed, steel-roofed shelter on a cold wet winter day. Fun, not!

@dooletube Год назад

You should really make a collab with HowNOT2. You could come up with all the scenarios arborists could face, and he got all the gadgets to test them.

@joeshmo5399 Год назад

What climbing system were you using when it happened to you? Is it designed to slide when this happens? My Petzl ID is supposed to slide during a 6KN shock load.

@TreeMuggs_PatrickM Год назад

Wrench and hitch cord

@stuby2014 Год назад

If you put load cell on the basal anchor it self wouldn't it be twice the impact?

@jeromelouis6339 Год назад

Now I'm curious how much of that 800 lbs is transferred onto your body vs how much goes into your gear/rope/tie in. And in turn what type of injuries it could do.

@shdj1105 Год назад

Great video. I would like to add, that it would be more accurate if you actually had the rope over a decent sized limb and put the load cell on the kettlebell end. This would simulate the forces much more accurately, as I'm sure there will be a bit of friction over the branch that would slow down/reduce the shock load. Let me know your thoughts, cheers. p.s. I do not intend on undermining your argument that there is great force in this situation, I am just curious to know what the results would be in a more realistic scenario.

@shdj1105 Год назад

Almost forgot! As others have commented, it would also be more accurate if you could do this test with a longer length of rope.

@ShredPilgrim Год назад

Is that an old hemp rope?

@veteransowhat5669 Год назад

Have you ever rode a spre?

@hosocat1410 Год назад

😳😳😳 eye opener!!! I was guessing maybe 250 pounds!!!

@JWG061 Год назад

Curious what the shock load is on the climbers end

@TreeMuggs_PatrickM Год назад

I will find out

@alotl1kevegas860 Год назад

I'm also curious about this. I wonder what it will be? Half of the shock load that was on the anchor?

@nate2838 Год назад

@@alotl1kevegas860 Should be about that I would think, though maybe slightly less due to friction on the carabiner.

@Bythirteen Год назад

gravity can be a bitch. good demonstration!

@batmantiss Год назад

Sobering

@Psy6o Год назад

Even more I had a limb break 4 foot above the crotch I was 20 feet up it broke I stopped 5 feet off the ground

@Psy6o Год назад

I had a smooth stop just scared the hell out of me

@br-dj2ti Год назад

So I'm about 206 lb so if that happened to me and I was in a tree that would mean I would almost put 1,600 pounds of force am I understanding that right great explanation though I never thought about

@TreeMuggs_PatrickM Год назад

Potentially yes

@philipperenaud4273 Год назад

Great work again pat. Your videos are always so insightful. It baffles me that people climb and are not explained these principles before they leave the ground?? It was the case with me my first mentor just showed me how to tie my rope system and sent me up o had to figure a lot of this by myself over the years. .

@br-dj2ti Год назад

@@philipperenaud4273 I mean obviously Pat has been climbing for many many many years and he's just making this video now about the basil I'm thinking he might have just found out about this concept maybe recently maybe a year or two ago do you know what I'm saying buddy so everybody's not as perfect as you are you know what I mean but this is how we all learn I've been climbing for 13 years I never thought about it dropping that much but these videos help us and teach us so since you know so much why don't you start making videos teaching other that would be great God bless

@br-dj2ti Год назад

@@philipperenaud4273 and I was taught just show me how to set a rope and start doing it simple as that I was pretty much thrown into it I taught myself for the years I never had a mentor by my side whenever I learned a lot be honest from RU-vid by know it sounds crazy I learned a lot through trial-and-error and just learn it over time that's just me I wish I would have had a mentor like Patrick or reg Coates somebody like with me for the first year that would have made a world of difference for me

@philipperenaud4273 Год назад

@@br-dj2ti hey first off I want to apologise I did not mean to male my comment a reply to yours. I was in no way trying to target you with my comment. The tree care industry has very little people who are properly trained the figure of people who follow proper training is at around 5% so you are not alone. Most mentors trainers in this industry are very poor teachers and the nature of the business is very poor at it as we focus on productivity. Therefore people are made to get up into a tree and make some money. The principal illustrated in this video should be basic understanding of this climbing system. But it's not discussed and for many it is not intuitive. Which is normal. We need to stop sending green thumbs into trees without explaining principles and functionalities of things. I teach at a college in Alberta and we have a comprehensive training program that focuses on these points vs developing climbing skills. There is no way I can get them to become solid productive climbers in a 45H class. I make sure they understand the functionality drawbacks and physics principles. This way they have a better sense of when these are applicable in different situations vs just being able to do it. I wish I had a longer program but we are an introductory 5 course program that does not permit me to do more. Maybe one day we will be recognized as a trade and have a more comprehensive program. ??

@zaccheus Год назад

Thanks for taking the time to make this video. I can clearly see the principles you are describing in action. I think there some important things to observe when considering the difference between this demonstration in a controlled environment and a potential real world scenario. Two of them mainly being more rope in the system and the friction in the union that the rope falls into. I made a video trying to replicate something like what you did here, but my execution was not as clean. Maybe you can try to improve on it with the things you have to come. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-s2ocED9AgaM.html The relative material is toward the end of the video. Please excuse my foolish mistake of using human weight to test with 😅

@TreeMuggs_PatrickM Год назад

Great video Zacc, I've been planning on doing a basal anchor test with a tree crotch like that for a while, very cool!

@zaccheus Год назад

@@TreeMuggs_PatrickM I will certainly look forward to seeing what you come up with!

@eclipsearchery9387 Год назад

If somebody asks 'how's it that possible'.....well umm it really isn't that complicated :) If you don't get it....I'd recommend doing something else :0

@taxustreeservice166 Год назад

There are more physics involved here that make this test and analysis nearly worthless. -short section of rope, no stretch to absorb shock -carabiner is smooth and tree limbs are not. You created a mechanical advantage of probably 1.5:1 considering the friction of the carabiner. Tree limbs have much more friction and thus reduce MA factors. (If you don’t understand theoretical vs actual MA this paragraph is worthless to you). Repeat the test and run the rope over a suspended limb that is rigged to your load cell. This alone would reduce the reading on the load cell. Change bark types from smooth cherry to rough oak to establish a frictional coefficient spectrum. -You discussed the reading of the load cell and did not explain that the forces felt at the load was 1/2 of the load cell reading. The other half of the load was on the other side of the rope tied off. I think many people watching the video will assume the climber will experience a little over 8 times their weight. A conveniently 225lbs person would then experience 8kn. There are papers published in ITRS (international technical rescue symposium) that show this level of force on the human body in a class 2 harness begins to become fatal. I don’t think you showed fatal forces, but you unknowingly implied it. -As a final note. industries. Nobody in the world encounters many unpredictable rigging problems as an arborist.

@nate2838 Год назад

As long as it get people to pay attention and think things through, then I wouldn't call the video worthless, I would say it is inaccurate. The main idea and principals apply, its simply that they wouldn't be as bad as shown here.

@veteransowhat5669 Год назад

I am not a know it all but When I top I put my rigging system "What ever system I use as a false crotch," above the closest branch or nub so the system doesn't slide down or off. That's the reality of the work, again it's a joke why didn't they them cover you from that. Your paying them thousands and hundreds of dollars ?