This is one of the best videos I've seen that explains batteries in a long time. I knew all, well, most, of the information in there.. but this type of conversation style interview would be amazing to display in schools... Not one of those prepared videos that have less than fancy graphics that bore you to tears..
This episode ended up not being about batteries of the future. It ended up being about current lithium ion batteries. I don't know if there was more discussion of their current research that didn't make it into this video, but if so, I'd love to see that. It would also be cool if you collaborated with some of the physics/chemistry/science centric RU-vid channels (PhysicsGirl, Veritasium, MinutePhysics, etc.) where they could do a video that goes into more depth on battery science. It could bring a lot of viewers over from those channels.
+BlameItOnGreg The video is called 'batteries to the future', not 'batteries of the future'. Since they spoke about batteries and then a dabbled a little on where batteries need to be in the future, or possible future use of batteries, I'd say the title of the video is fine. If anything, I reckon it was a bit of a joke after Toyota released the 'Back to the Future' Mirai thing.
+BlameItOnGreg panasonic has 4000mah 18650's out 2017. the next is chemistry is lithium sulphur in 2024 allowing up to 8000mah 18650 then solid state dry electrolyte lithium air at about 18000mah sometime after 2035.
ghd67ik2887218 correct. although the efficiency of electric cars is higher than petrol. also there is a new technology that will replace oil. they will create an artificial hydrocarbon from carbon and hydrogen extracted from sea water. the process is energy intensive but when powered by a nuclear power station at wholesale energy costs they could make a barrel of this new liquid fuel at around $3 so its cheaper than oil.
I think primarily that's because they've figured out it can do a LOT more than just store energy to be released on demand. From what I've read, it's effectiveness has surprised even the owners and Tesla. Wiped $7m off the cost of electricity on one day in January 2018. From what I can tell the cost should be in the vicinity of $60m, so that's about 10% of the battery paid for in a single day.
I've been harvesting old laptop batteries for years. The BMS in Dell bateries in perticular actually tend to pretend that the capacity is worse than it is to get the user to buy a new battery.
+ben hunter The key to extending battery life is keep the charge at 40% when you're storing the battery, or laptop plugged in but battery not being used .
yeah, my laptop has a feature where it only charges the battery up to 60% which I usually use when I know I'm not going to need to use it outside of the house for a while.
It's a Lenovo Z500 and the setting is in Lenovo energy management or something like that. It's a fairly old laptop but that feature is fairly common on laptops these days. I think they put it on mine because the battery is "not user replaceable" meaning that you've got to take it to bits to change it.
Are you still harvesting cells? I've spend 6 months harvesting cells from around 500 laptop packs and I've got to say, DELL packs give up a very high proportion of perfectly good cells. I'd say more than 90% of cells from Dell packs have more than 80% or the rated capacity left. Its also a similar thing with other brands too though. Id say more than 60% of my packs have had all cells working very well and yet somehow they ended up in the dump.its a tragedy, it really is.
+Everett Hervey You are very right, it's very viable and is used to enormous effect at Dinorwig in Wales, however there is rather a dearth of mountains in the UK as a whole and you need some seriously big mountains and loads of water. This is where Norway has a very unfair advantage, they have tons of mountains and loads of water and are 100% hydro and wind powered, loads of pumped storage. Maybe if we scraped the whole of Norfolk into a big mountain and used that.
+fullychargedshow there's a nice project to do it backwards, pump air into bags anchored to the seafloor, conveniently located next to offshore wind. There's a few videos about the pilot project from the University of Nottingham made by Brady Haran (who runs a half dozen educational RU-vid channels and works with Nottingham professors. )
Everett Hervey#There are several factors in fixing a car battery. One place I found which succeeds in merging these is the Jons mender guide (google it if you're interested) without a doubt the most useful info that I've heard of. Check out this interesting resource.
Pumped-storage means dams, which damage the eco system on an entire different level (blocking fish migration, destroying land areas with natural habitats, eroding river banks). Sure it's better than burining coal but in my opinion it's just not worth doing those massive infrastructure projects, which cost bilions, to swap one kind of damage for another and just for a short period of time anyway.
I agree with the professor that cars like the Volt and i3 are the transition to EVs. They enable people to become accustomed to the technology, while having that backup of gasoline in case they forget to plugin .
20 mile commute to work? That sounds like a dream. I drive about 52 miles Monday through Friday. 70+ if I go see my friends on a Saturday. My sister used to drive between 80 and 100 miles a day for work before she went off to grad school. If Tesla were to mass produce cars for they would need to make a "Texas Edition" with a monster battery. The range of their cars, according to Google, is 250-260 miles, that'll last about two days for some people in the Houston Metropolitan Area.
haha lmao, one can never know more than what he/she already knows, except for split personalities where another person doesnt know thing about the first :p
Wow, how quickly things move on. That was just over 2 years ago and already most of what was said to be unlikely has been achieved! I particularly enjoyed the speculation of if/when electric cars get to be able to do 20-30 miles on a single charge, that would be a game changer... Fossil Footage already.
Can i suggest that this sort of faculty shows why our Universities are so important for the future of our development! Great to see smart capable and enthusiastic people getting the chance to learn science and engineering that will shape all our futures! (it would be great to see more women in science at this level, but hey, that's a different discussion)
+Max Torque you could suggest that but I think you would be wrong. for the most part academia is old geezers burning large amounts of money with exactly zero chance of doing anything useful. Innovation comes from a tiny tiny few and specifically in batteries, without checking, I'd say that happens outside academia in commercial research. Our university research is for the most part a disgrace in my experience. You can make one easy observation to see this is most likely true. In the entire world, counting all the universities who are supposedly the best and the brightest, how many have done an EV or an EV related product that moved the world further? the tiniest contribution whatsoever. Alan Cocconi did the drivetrain in the EV1, aerovironment designed the car, GM fluked the concept, Cali forced them, Cali caved, GM crushed. Cocconi did the tzero that inspired Martin Eberhard and Elon to do Tesla. Chris Paine and pals did Who Killed the Electric Car and Al Gore did An Inconvenient Truth. That's the chain of events that triggered the EV revolution in 2006. An Exxon employee proposed lithium batteries in 1970. Sony made the first battery in 1991. Only a few details came from university guys. The brutal reality is that almost all humans are blithering idiots :) People who make a difference are one in a billion.
+Dan Frederiksen That's not true. From Physics to Medicine, it's non-compartmentalised experimentation that achieves the crucial, game-changing advances. Industry-funded research, while hugely better-funded, is too myopic to advance Science as fast as publicly and charitably-funded research does. In Medicine, the problem of industry propaganda drowning out the truth is particularly problematic. The big Pharma companies spend a lot of money lobbying in favour of patent impositions, on the basis that they themselves are responsible for 'blue skies' research into better drugs. In reality, most of their billions go on minor variants to old drugs, and simply evergreening them, to recycle patents, and keep prices unnecessarily high. The majority of the most innovative medical research is done by Universities and Charity-funded research institutes - by Cancer Research UK, Max Planck, Howard Hughes, Wellcome, etc. This is why public-private-partnerships have been popular, of late - the private sector wants the public sector's ingenuity (game-changing scientific advances) and the public sector wants the private sector's money, which it is in chronic short supply of. So the cause for this difference, is in the nature of the beast - Capitalism is about capital, Science is about science. The scientific method is in exploring, sorting through huge numbers of hypotheses, and uncovering the minority that turn out to be true. You would call this "wasted money" when the hypotheses are wrong, i presume, but this is a necessary process to find out new truths, that can turn out to be game-changers. Industry-funded research is not open-ended, because it is Capitalist - it is motivated by profit, and so the idea of "old geezers burning large amounts of money" that can't feed their avarice, is institutionally belittled as "zero chance of doing anything useful". The result is the private sector alternative - large amounts of expense, instead put to minor modifications of old technologies. The vast majority of widespread technologies in Medicine, and Physics, and Computing today, are actually built on publicly funded technology - Google's search algorithm, for example. Facebook, too. The AllTrials team know all too well, that most modern medicine is based on old medicines, often more than 40 years old. It's not modern highly-compartmentalised private-sector research that patients owe their gratitude too. Space exploration too, is a great example of public funding achieving hugely impressive things, because there is private-sector scale funding, and public sector research freedom. In comparison, the private sector has struggled to *repeat* this 50 year old achievement, even with extensive public sector support. Pigeonholed "only find things that'll make us richer" research simply doesn't cut it, when it comes to major achievements. It's the method that's wrong, here - there are no "one in a billion" geniuses who can change this fact.
+notsyort I listed the specific elements in the EV revolution. If what I said wasn't true, feel free to mention the universities that contributed and refute those I listed as relevant.
1) No, you didn't. You'd need a whole website to detail specific elements of any history, not only that one. 2) You made broad claims about the nature of private and publicly funded research that are wrong. It is those that i repudiated. 3) If you were interested in refutation, you would have done it for the points i made. The fact that you haven't, demonstrates to me and others who find this comment stream, that you are not genuinely interested in identifying truths, and are simply trying to manipulate the course of conversation in order to deflect valid criticism. Must try harder!
+Max Torque Wander over to the Health & Human Development college..... that's where you'll find the women. They are 99% of the students (basically the opposite of the engineering college) .
really like to see more about electric motorbikes in uk. reason is that I'm finding hard to even find a make in uk that has dealers and even bikes to test ride. just seams uk is hindering electirc motorcycles but helping electric cars.
Hi Rob, Could you do us all a 'Christmas Special' about the Quantum Mechanics of Batteries ? You could get Prof. Jim Al-Khalili to explain it all, and we could all watch it through a haze of Bailey's . . . (Other drinks are available . . .) Cheers ! :-)
Well, perhaps there should be ? We're dealing with Electrons, which are a Quantum phenomena, so presumably there must be some work going on at that level to create more efficient storage systems ?
LOL ! I don't think my maths skills could handle it ! No, I'm more interested in finding out what we already know than imagining that I could ever possibly add to it !
Hey Fullycharged, I think you guys might be knowing about the metal air battery technology, can you guys do a show on it.I'll be eagerly waiting to see the metal air battery technology on your show.
Love your show! Maybe it's too detailed but I'd like to see an explanation of the various ways people use their solar panels to charge their cars. There are a at least a couple of options like SolarPanel->grid during the day, grid->car during the night but there's also SolarPanel to both grid and car which could be more efficient especially if the DC->AC->DC conversion is skipped as part of the process to charge the car.
With the automotive industry trending towards 48V motor/generator hybrids for short-range electric usage, I expect to see more long-life super/ultracapacitors being used alongside batteries.
Yes, they are being used and I think that solid state high capacity double battery double capacitor system should be used. One capacitor will be charged through dynamo (alternator) attached to differential which will then be used to charge the offline battery and another super cap so that it could be used for surge demands. And then when one battery goes down, it switches to the other battery for power usage. We may extend the milage hugely with this, provided we are getting 200 miles (approx 300kms) on trucks with one battery pack and whole system is not too heavy.
You can also use the super caps in regen circuits. The fascinating thing about renewable energy architecture is that all these technologies has a place for there are so many usecases depending upon applications. House holds and factories long term storage and peak load buffers. Automotive needs different. A new age of energy technology industries are coming. That is good for local economy. We just need our stupid politicians see the big picture..
Thank you for an excellent video! This was hugely interesting and I would love many more videos like this, going a bit more in depth with battery technology!
Interesting, but really about yesterdays technology. Also , there is not one lithium ion technology, many different chemistries exist. Lithium Ferrous Phosphate (and variations thereof) are capable of safer, quicker and deeper charge/discharge. Lithium Titanate is particularly interesting, capable of a 90% charge in under 10 minutes (typically 6-8) currently being used in USA for a local bus with roof mounted inductive charging at stops!
in 2011, there were two major breakthroughs in lithium ion batteries. The first was by Northwestern University that placed seven layers of graphene between the eight layers of Li. The ions move at a snail's pace while going through the dense first layer of lithium creating a dangerous amount of heat from friction. However once the ions pass through to the first layer of graphene they accelerate to hyper speeds. This only lasts for a fraction of a second, but when they hit the next layer of lithium they are now moving much faster and this repeats over and over until they move through the eighth layer of lithium. The dangerous heat from friction is reduced to only 15% of solid lithium batteries so the danger of explosion or fire is reduced to a much safer level. Another factor to use this is that the battery power lasts twice as long. Furthermore the battery can be fully recharged in less than 30 minutes. The second major breakthrough in 2011 was made by the Ardennes Laboratory of DARPA. They discovered that replacing 13% of the metal in the anode with manganese, the Li-ion batteries double its output yet again and the time to recharge the batteries only take twenty minutes for a complete recharge. Musk knows this as I have sent Tesla this same message at least four times in the last eight years. In addition to these major breakthroughs, a graduate chemistry student at UT El Paso discovered how to make graphene from used motor oil. Making graphene from graphite costs about $200 an ounce. Making it from used motor oil lowers the cost to about six cents per ounce. We have these technologies all discovered this decade. It's time some very rich high tech mogul puts this all together. Perhaps you can send a copy of this post to any high tech mogul you might have heard of. This could make someone a trillion dollars over the coming decades.
Is there an efficiency question? I know batteries produce heat but is that a basic resistance that cant be avoided or can that be improved upon as well?
avada yes i knew that, my question was if that can be improved or is that just a basic underlying resistance that cant be improved upon. Even 5-10% improvement is huge especially in say race cars. Formula E has quite a lot of trouble with batteries overheating.
avada thanks for repeating what was already said in the video. What i am curious about is something the video did not cover and you didnt answer either.
i am missing a discussion on the many alternative battery technologies that have been shown to work better than lithium ion in lab situations and their viability for replacing lithium ion in the future.
General talk about batteries plus some explanation of the Li+ ion. If the department had any ideas for significantly-improved technology under development (likely they don't) they'd need rocks in their heads to tell the competition anything about it on the telly.
"The day when we shall know exactly what electricity is will chronicle an event probably greater more important, than any other recorded in the history of the human race" Nikola Tesla
You prolly dont give a shit but if you're bored like me during the covid times you can watch all of the latest movies on InstaFlixxer. Been binge watching with my gf recently :)
Wonder if it would be possible to engineer a composite material that would serve both as the car exterior structure and a battery? Imagine that the whole car exterior is an ultracapacitor.
Rob, you need to follow this guy, Edison lab are very interested in his work ;0) Robert Murray-Smith, he's a Brit, a man-in-a-shed. He started off making Micro-materials [ close to nano ] with a blender and a glass kiln. You'll love his EESD [ Electrostatic Electrical Storage Device ] and the fact the 'cells' make Li-ion and Li-Polymer look like fatties.
Key to any roll out at scale is return on investment. There's plenty of R&D and even new technology about, but it's practical viability at scale that matters.
Have you heard anything about the fluoride battery? I've found very little about it, except that it can theoretically hold 6 times the charge as lithium while being lighter and costing less to produce. In a Tesla, that would get me to my family in Kentucky and back without having to recharge once (about 1600 miles), so I'd love it if it was actually viable.
+Ben Faust Why would anyone make a car with 1600 mile range? Do you have a 1600 mile bladder? Make better batteries, put *fewer* in the car, to reduce weight and cost.
CorwynGC I was only daydreaming. Although, it would be nice. Between where I live and my family, there aren't enough charging stations to make it even in a Tesla. And I wouldn't go 1600 miles anyway; 650 there, and 650 back. I've done this before in a gas car stopping only three times for only 5 - 10 minutes each time. Regardless, it doesn't matter what we do or don't want or think is a good idea. The market demand will take care of whether there are 1600 mile range cars (no more range anxiety excuses to the extreme), or smaller batteries, or both (different people want different things for different reasons, and tend to think the others who want something else are a bit dim witted, silly us). Or perhaps a descent 200 - 300 mile range for a truck pulling a load. Helicopters perhaps? Who knows. I just wanted to know if he'd heard of it. ;o)
Ben Faust If Tesla superchargers aren't sufficient now, they should be shortly. I was under the impression that they had carpeted the US (i.e. you could drive anywhere in continental US) by now, but I may have missed a hole. Edit: Ah, checked www.teslamotors.com/supercharger they seem to be missing a bit in west Texas, and some North Dakota and Montana. 2016 then.
CorwynGC Kentucky has only one, last time I checked. We MIGHT be able to make it there in a Tesla with the biggest available battery, but it would be really pushing it. Definitely looking forward to the day fast electric car chargers are everywhere.
Another form of battery is 3 paints 1 a charge material to a insulator 3 a charge receiver which uses thin layer multi purpose filters to extract energy from light waves. Solar panels gather power with sunlight but these battery surfaces like a panel with filters collect ir, uv, sun spot, etc across the spectrum of light rays so day and night they conduct electricity. No more direct solar dependence.
That's what a hybrid car does. If you are rolling along on electric power and your battery gets low, you can keep on driving (at lower speeds) with your gas engine while it charges up your batteries.
When a battery expert tells you that hybrids are OK, are you going to pay the slightest attention and recognise that Toyota is on the correct path at this stage of battery development.
superdau Many batteries that are bulkier or heavier than lithium ion are also cheaper and also perfect for stationary and grid storage where size and weight are not as important.
In the United States we recycle approximately 97 percent of lead acid automotive batteries. Now with lithium ion batteries we simply need to inform the scrapyards that lithium ion batteries can be recycled as easily as lead acid batteries. It simply a different recycle stream because of different materials. Cheers!
Yes it’s more environmentally friendlier then a combustion engine but you have to realise where are you getting that energy from to supply your ev?? Power plants etc.. the key way forward for this to work is to have a reliable,efficient and environmentally friendly way of generating electricity otherwise there is no point in trading in your car
Strange..... Considering a good few outfits including Toyota, Dyson, John Goodenough and Tesla have apparently got Solid State batteries ready to hit the market in 3 years. This guy seems like a smallish time establishment scientist whos happy treading water talking about understanding the physics of it which won't bring products to market and will see his retirement out. You would learn more about batteries by watching Robert Murray Smith Chanel. Not one of the best FC episodes today but I'm still a huge fan.
CorwynGC whom are you referring to? I want to start a cell manufacturing plant in India for solid state batteries using renewable resources and graphene. Looking for a better tech and finances.
very interesting... the only thing what annoys me and not related with video is when people describing devices, like whats definition of Tablet = iPad.. or whats definition of smartphone: iPhone... why cant they say tablet or smartphone. yea apple very popular but it feels like they invented it . hmmm but anyways still nice video
well i get it people confusing who first introduced between who refined it . apple surelly refined it . there was tablets before ipad and they didnt really succeed and they there strange shapes, later everyone kind of overtook ipad shape for tablets. so i get it why people think they have *invented* it althought its not excatly correct. well anyways ha
Peter Bruce sounds a bit behind the times - affordable Li-ion batteries for cars and even grid-level storage are already available on the open market from a companies like Tesla. Elon Musk has spent years working on driving down production costs to facilitate mass market application of this battery technology... Unless I'm very much mistaken, it's fundamental to his multi-billion dollar business
Surely this is old hat? The future is solid state CARBON batteries, which are also VERY cheap materials: "Scientists at MIT, working with Samsung, have discovered solid-state batteries that are better than current lithium-ion efforts. These batteries should be safer, last longer and offer more power. Current lithium-ion batteries rely on an electrolyte liquid to transport charged particles between the two electrodes. It's this liquid that can be flammable and which degrades the battery, limiting life. According to the MIT report these new batteries could be charged for hundreds of thousands of cycles before degrading. They could also provide a 20 to 30 per cent improvement in power density meaning that much more charge for whatever they are powering. And they aren't flammable so they're ideal for electric cars." www.pocket-lint.com/news/130380-future-batteries-coming-soon-charge-in-seconds-last-months-and-power-over-the-air
Some facts.Primary lithium batteries do contain lithium metal! Rechargable batteries are dangerous like having petrol in your pocket.Better energy density will make them more volatile when fails.Not only is the batterie expensive it also uses energy in it's charge decharge cycle.
Solar Panel users are in for a real shock(I do not excuse the pun)if the Gov. gets its way,read the item in the latest CSMA magazine to see how little benefit to your finances solar will be,they do not want you to charge your all-electric/Hybrid for next to nothing!!!.
They found that you can use vapor deposition of conductive stuff on the back of solar to make it theoretically 60 percent efficient. Batteries will be the same, some day they will find the quantum efficiency with coatings which let the efficiency and density be 5 times higher. Then we can do 1000 miles on a charge. Like solar panels, and LCD's, the tech comes in dacades and not in jumps, it comes in slow revolutions that take 10 years to accelerate and another 10 to pick up.
My answer is - * Supercapacitor. A car should be designed to use an electric motor for what its good for, and a gas engine what its good for. Electric= High tork ...fast acceleration. Gas = long distance reliability. Soo... If the electric is only used for the first 6 sec. of acceleration from the stop light... A 3 min. capacity battery would equal 30 stop lights (Not accounting for regeneration) { It doesn't take much of a gas motor to maintain a speed, once it is cruising ...1 liter ?} So rather than a Battery - A "Supercapacitor". Saving 1000 Lbs of weight. and should cost much less. The result : A very Quick, Yet very economical car..( 60mpg.?) My question is: Is there a hybrid that would accommodate this type function without much modification? * [ Supercapacitors charge extremely fast and can recharge many thousands of times. ]
Graphene won't be used commercially until at least a decade. It's extremely difficult to make as of right now, but in the future we might use it not just to conduct heat and electricity at ludicrous speed and efficiency, but possibly also for aeroplanes, cars, spacecraft, or even windows. Graphene is really a wonder material.
electrictroy2010 a supecapacitor is just like a capacitor, only difference is that the former does actually hold on to a lot of power. just like a battery.
Most important things for batteries right now. Speed of charge. Safety. Size and Weight. Longevity. Durability. Reliability. Voltage Range. {{Lithium is only 3.6-4.2 volts per cell. I propose 3.5-5v per cell safe range.}} Speed of discharge. {{Lithum can only put out so much of its power at once, needing to have more battery to output more power. IE, the P100D is faster than the P85D. Also, if you have a hobby toy that has a 4s 1000mah 40c lipo, it won't output as much as a 4s 1000mah 60c lipo, or, as far as I can understand/estimate, a 750mah 80c lipo.}}
I think this professor is an expert in lithium batteries, but he doesn't know everything, and specially he is not an expert in the grapheme and aluminium batteries. And he also don't work with nanoflow cells. Therefore this was a limited and narrow view of the present / future of batteries.
Alexandre Fernandes maybe you have any news about the nano flow cell? I am quiet disappointed that that Swiss company never took any steps to commercialize the cell or the Quant(ino) cars...
Neither yourself or the good professor I dare say to me possess much more well versed in ace knowledge than mine about the kind of energy storage that are exemplarary in our modern slimline smartphones, commonly known as lipo or lithium ion polymer batteries. Basic lithium ion technology never turned up in these things for years. Lipo materials physics also I have recently hear got a boost from special additive printing methods.
Please think about it for being used commercially. Especially in India where pollution level is very high, people don't have much money, and population is extra huge so there are very long queues for 5 min cng fillings rt now... God know what will happen of electric charging!
