Looking at the equipment used for the practice of bayonet fencing in the 19th and 20th centuries. Bayonet fencing was widespread and competitive, but more or less died out after WW2. Extra videos on Patreon: / scholagladiatoria
That unknown material is called phenolic, a rosin impregnated paper that was layered. It was also used as insulators in electrical equipment at that time.
Yes, interesting. I have always associated that word with synthetic polymers (like Bakelite) rather than rosin. Have you encountered a source or manufacturing reference? I have seen laminated paper used in lots of items, but I never could identify the adhesive element to a certainty. Thanks!
I was an Infantryman in the U.S. Army. We trained with pugil sticks. This was supposed to simulate a bayonet on an m16a2 rifle. However, we just club each in to a concussions. I believe that just after I left the service, the Army suggested putting red tape on one side of the pugil stick to better simulate a rifle bayonet. Great vid.
When I was in noncom training in the Norwegian Army in the late 70's, we still had some training with those fencing rifles (fektegevær in Norw). I believe that was the end of them, though, as we didn't have any spares, and if we bent one, it was just thrown away. Those drills were Not taken seriously, I suspect the instructors brought them out for a laugh. Protective gear was sparse; a quite ordinary modern fencing mask and a heavy glove. Those rifles were built on a variety of obsolete guns, one seems to have been based on an early magfed Mauser, as I nicked the mag of one, and still have it somewhere. Probably left by the Jerries during the war.
It was still about in the 1970s, although without the competitive aspects. Pugil training was an important part of Canadian Forces Infantry training, using lacrosse helmets, hockey gloves, and external crouch protection. The sticks looked like Q-tips. We paired off and fought at least once a week during trades training.
High quality modern boxing gloves still do have horse hair in them (in combination with foam padding) and are frequently used by pros in competition. They do cost quite a bit more than most variants of foam padding though. A good example are Cleto-Reyes gloves which are a rather high cost brand.
@@scholagladiatoria To be fair they are mainly used in competition because as horsehair deforms more easily under sweaty conditions and with repeated impacts, they tend to become more "hard hitting" as the rounds drag on. Some more injury prone fighters have moved away from them because they also offer less protection once that happens. Training and sparring equipment is mostly some variant of durable foam padding.
Most modern rifles are kind of too short for it to make sense. A person with a knife in their hand can now have as much reach as a short carbine like an M4, FAMAS or SA80.
@@scholagladiatoria indeed it's a terrible shame that Britain, with probably the strongest culture of bayonet usage in Europe, has gone with not only a very short rifle, but a plug bayonet(!) The M16A2 was quite a good bayonet host. No idea about the FAL.
on my 18th birthday I bought a Mosin (I know I know, terrible first choice, we're all young and stupid once) and ever since I've always wanted to get into HEMA with a specific focus on bayonets. Bayonet vs Sword is a particularly fascinating matchup. I'll be eager to see footage if any of your students do that sort of sparring!
On the subject of modern materials for HEMA gear, has there been much effort into looking at using non-Newtonian materials for padding in HEMA gear? Some motorcycle gear uses it because it's light and flexible but will instantly harden on impact. It could result in protective gear that's less bulky while still providing excellent protection. I could see this being really useful for gloves, depending on just how well they take impacts and at what thickness. At the very least, that kind of material could be used to line the joints and other hard to protect parts on a glove.
Yes, people have experimented with D30. My understanding is that it did not work well for two main reasons - firstly it is usually reliant on padding anyway, as when hard it just transfers the energy to the body underneath. And secondly that it does not seem to harden quickly enough when hit by a fast narrow object like a blunt sword - it works fine against rocks and bats, but not blades (even blunt ones).
Very interesting! Any chance we might get a video talking a bit more about the bayonet competitions, as well as about the contrasting styles between, say, English bayonet fencing and Japanese?
I second your motion. From the British side there are many XVIII to early xx century manuals being practiced by hema clubs like schola G. And Academy of Historical Fencing. From the Japanese, the bayonet is still practiced as a martial art sport , just like kendo is ,it's called jukendo. I'm not sure if the rules have changed at all since it's not longer competing against other styles . It looks like kendo with bayonets.
You are correct to say boxing gloves used to be horse hair ...in fact there used to be glove-boys, the gloves would be removed between rounds and the glove-boys would knead the gloves as they tended to get packed denser and denser. Also the US marine core still holds pugil-stick fencing with three-section pugil-sticks which is to simulate fighting with a bayonet and the rules of this type of pugil-stick fighting are that you can chop and stab with the front (red) end but can only stab(butt) with the back(black) end.
I've just started getting interested in Jukendo and so the cross-fertilisation of ideas and techniques and equipment is very interesting. Thanks, excellent video. 👍
Thank you Matt for sharing this with us. Always appreciate your content. I have to say that mask reminds me of a kendo mask more that a hound skull type helmet. As a young teenager we went to huge martial arts demo at the arena in Phoenix. I remember watching the Japanese bayonet fencing and thinking man I want to learn that. But then the announcer said they were the last school in the world who taught it and that everywhere else it was a dead art. Which I now know is probably bs. 30 yrs later this video has peaked my interest in bayonet fencing. Time to break out the padded sticks. Cheers!
Excellent Vid Matt. Accidentually.. have you tried shooting a sack with sheeps wool in it? it works excellent as a backdropp for arrows.. ties in nicely with the absorbtion notion you have going here in the vid.
The Army I was in still does bayonet training as a part of recruit training and during initial Infantry training, and then very occasionally as part of the normal Infantry unit ongoing training. However, no fencing is done at all...it is just learning and practising the attacks and defences against dummy targets, as well as going through assault bayonet courses. In reality, it is less about learning how to fight with a bayonet attached to the end of your rifle (as that is completely useless in modern warfare), and much more about learning/experiencing controlled aggression and acclimatising to physical exertion during (simulated) combat and the effects of it on your body and mind, along with all the bumps and scratches. Most modern battlefield standard issue rifles are way too short and awkwardly shaped to take advantage of a bayonet fixed to the end, and even though there are instances of hand-to-hand combat on the modern battle field, it is extremely rare and if I had ever found myself in that sort of situation, even if I had the time to do so, I would not have ever bothered attaching the bayonet to my rifle, but rather use the bayonet like a knife in my hand, which most bayonets are these days anyway...and if it was the case that I was a riflemen in an assault on an enemy position and the commander ordered "Fix Bayonets" whilst in the forming up area immediately prior to the assault, and I found myself forced into hand-to-hand combat, I would still rather grapple and strike with my hands/feet/knees/elbows rather than try and use a bayonet attached to a bullpup...once the "Right arm of the Free World" went out of service around the globe, any notion of being able to bayonet fight properly with a rifle departed...
There are still quite a lot of old .303s floating around, aren't there? When I was a teenager in the 1990s (in Australia), is was pretty common for farmers / shooters to own a .303. I'm not sure how many were destroyed during the buy-back after the Port Arthur massacre and the subsequent clamp-down on our gun ownership laws, but there must still be quite a few out there. I wonder if they could be fitted with bayonets simulators suited to use in HEMA?
Also, could you kindly do a video break-down of your thoughts on the movie Solomon Kane...the fighting, weapons, equipment, clothing and general period feel for the late 16th - early 17th Century, thanks!
Another Schola video watched en garde. Sound historical and martial info, as always! Funny about the mice living in the helmet, I always think it's a shame when such old things are destroyed like that. Speaking of old fencing equipment and historical gear being degraded by time, that's what this reminds me of: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-IryUImWprOg.html That fencing gauntlet reminds me of the armor Guts wears on his left forearm and uses like a shield (before he looses the arm and gets a steel prosthetic), except the fencing gauntlet doesn't cover the elbow: images.app.goo.gl/2zhKXRojjn5qvrDC8
ok, i don't think you have made any video on Master and commander? i mean that is a fantastic movie and i think is right in your alley to do some commentary on its battles and historic accuracy
So that is like a iato, being as heavy as a real rifle, used to practice and closer to the real thing as a mokuju? Does it have the same point of balance?
Off Topic: That is a realy nice sword on your right (left from the camera) with the sabre hilt/guard, the straight blade and the black scabbard. What sword is that?
I know you train heavily in swords, but do you do any grappling arts as well? I've seen you incorporate grappling into demonstrations, but is it grappling limited to sword fighting? Do you have a background, for example, in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu or other grappling arts?
Did they always try to hit their opponent centre mass in these tournaments, and do u know the points system they used, I'd expect centre mass had the largest score, because that was the main way the army trained?
Would a recreation of that glove be enough padding for hema? Maybe not for longsword (depending on the club but I'd be interested in opinions on that as well) but definitely for saber and such. I'd be really interested in a video about more of the historical gear, the material that was used, its construction and its potential for modern applications. Having been in the US Marines myself I understand that even though the padding used for training might be current for the period it might not always be the most protective thing available or the most advantageous for the situation even back then, however I think passing on that kinda information might get the ball rolling for different protective equipment that might be beneficial to weapons like saber. Thanks for the information as always!
That's too bad. Though maybe it will have to be more of a bespoke item, as most gear starts off I would guess. I do know that the Visby gloves by age of craft have several layers of fibrous fabric (I'm not sure what exactly it is either wool or felt) to absorb impact underneath the steel plates. I'm not sure how difficult it would be for them to replace the steel with more fabric if they'd be willing to.
@@scholagladiatoria Might that have to do with the horsehair not being as readily available these days? There must be something else with similar properties. A lot of the energy dissipation in horsehair padding is friction between the individual hairs in addition to simple compression as with foam, so the replacement material would need coarse-surfaced fibers rather than smooth like the polyfill used in modern furniture and pillows. From what I've seen of vegetable-based fibers (e. g. jute) they're coarse enough but tend to break rather than bend when compressed. Maybe some of that artificial silk no-one seems to know what to do with because it's not good enough for ballistic armor?
@@markfergerson2145 actually it's still fairly available for upholstery purposes especially it seems for restoring antique furniture. A pound or so going for around 40 USD. Which would be enough for a set of gloves and probably a jacket too. They also make synthetic horse hair made of rubber that might work. My guess is they could be made pretty simple, a glove sewed inside another glove like the plate holder of a visby gauntlet then shoved full of hair. Shouldn't be that hard I want to try my hand at making a pair.
@@markcarico546 Forty bucks a pound keeps it in the specialty market. You don't see every furniture maker stuffing couches and comfy chairs with it. I'm not sanguine about rubber fake horsehair reproducing the properties of the real thing all that well. I wonder how well today's buyers know the difference?
The construction of the bayonet helmet seems more similar to that of the kendo men. I wonder if this was simply coincidental parallel evolution, or if there was some cross-fertilization? scf.usc.edu/~jialouwa/itp104/final/kendohistory.html
I've always found Oakwood Leather Conditioner to be the best dressing for saddle leather. It rehydrates old saddle leather better than anything else I've used. (It's not period, if that matters: Oakwood only got going as a company in 1990, but it is an excellent dressing. )
@@philipcrouch I'm a bit of a traditionalist - plus neetsfoot is something I've used before - most recently on a leather bag recovered from a charity shop and a pair of Swiss cycling spatts/gaiters
Modified bayonet equipment with those bars and some neck stiffening for more forceful (obviously still not full force) quarterstaff/polearm sparring when?
@@markfergerson2145 Correction monsieur, vous ne placez pas le avant le verbe vous le placez le avant le verbe et le après le verbe. Aussi, est le imparfait temps du verbe ( en anglais) le présent temps est vous essayez parler And with that its time for me to get back to doing my French homework....
@@andrewk.5575 All the french I know I got from Mme Sperling in seventh grade more than fifty years ago. Also some from AvE but I don't think Mme Sperling would approve.
Beautiful comparison between the bayonet and sword fencing helmets and why HEMA should pay closer attention to actual history. But please, before handling that thing and then immediately handling something you *can* wear, see about having that mouse-poop container professionally cleaned by someone who knows such antiques. Diseases carried by rodents, like Valley Fever, can linger on for a very long time in their poop. You do NOT want a dose of that, please believe me.
Also, bayonet fencing may not have a military use anymore.... but there is case to be made that it has a home defense use. Imagine you are fending off a group of robbers and/or murders.... and if you gun jamns or you run out of ammunition before seeing off a assailant..... imagine the fear you would cause in a assailant if you fixed bayonet.... charged an assailant and kaboobed him.
